Combat improvements discussion

[Carnage]

There's been a lot of flak about the combat system in Arm. Some of it positive, some of it negative. While I'm inbetween in the issue, I thought it'd be a good idea to make a thread devoted to ideas and improvements to the combat system.

So post away.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I think we should do away with the automated feature where when somebody gets killed by subdue IG, a bunch of posts automagickally crop up complaining that the subdue skill needs to be watered down.

[Tamarin]

I think we should do away with the automated feature where when somebody gets killed by subdue IG, a bunch of posts automagickally crop up complaining that the subdue skill needs to be watered down.

So much for having a discussion board.

[Gilvar]

I'd like to see a consistancy between npc's actions and whats allowed of PCs. A good example being the 'bug' of sorts with soldiers that can sheath, try to subdue subdue, fail subdue, draw their weapons, attack and get in a bash/kick before you can.

Or with the gith that do a similar thing.

If I knew anything about coding I'd give it a try... but that's what I'd like to see for an improvement

[SailorMars]

In D&D an armed opponent gets a free attack against someone trying to subdue them. If the attack succeeds the subdue attempt fails. Perhaps in Arm there could be degrees of success based off the skill of the subdue and free attack.

Subduer dodges the free attack = subdue has normal chance of success.

Free attack hits doing damage but subdue still has a chance of success.

Free attack kersplats the grappler breaking the attempt.

It's really not easy to grab an aware, armed person against their will without gettng stabbed or slashed or whatever.

[Tamarin]

I would like to see a longer delay put in place for subdue, both after subduing someone, and after someone breaking free.  Especially if that person is unarmed.  I don't care how big the HG is, if his hand gets anywhere near me when while I have my swords drawn, he's going to lose his hand.

Edited to include the above post:  That is exactly what it should be.  If you've got your weapons out, and an unarmed person comes at you, you should get your two free swings (if you have two weapons, one if you've only one) before they have a hope in hell of subduing you.

[Gilvar]

Well not all subdue attempts are head on. Someone might coming from behind, grabbing at their hands, their neck, whatever. Sideways, leaping at their ankles.

[EvilRoeSlade]

My idea for the day is... it needs to be harder to flee.

I thought about it when I was reading the posts complaining about the flee, subdue/backstab, repeat.  Don't get my position wrong because I think there are legitimate circumstances for both.  The problem really lies  not with twinks, but with the fact that combat always favors weaklings and cowards, and will continue with this obscene mockery of harshness until the system is changed.

If somebodies attacking you, there is no need to test your blade against your foes to see who's more of a hardcase when you can just enter a command that invokes almost no lag, and zigzag out of your attackers sight long before the much more severe lag of the kill wears off.

Flee and kill.  Opposite sides of the same coin, no?  The lag for both commands should be equal.  Not only would this make the backstab-flee conondrum less viable, but it would make combat fast and deadly, as the documentation falsely promises.

Failing that, the flee skill should be harder to use effectively.  Perhaps warriors and other hardcases should have a counter skill that can nullify attempts to flee.  Or perhaps instead of lag there could be a before delay (which is almost always a better option).  Or else the success rate of flee could be more flimsy.

Anyway, I don't think subdue is broken at all.  It's flee that needs to be worked on.

[Tamarin]

Well not all subdue attempts are head on. Someone might coming from behind, grabbing at their hands, their neck, whatever. Sideways, leaping at their ankles.

Then make subdue attempts by hidden characters the only ones that go without a free attack by the victim.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I don't care how big the HG is, if his hand gets anywhere near me when while I have my swords drawn, he's going to lose his hand.

If you're such a hardcase that you can chop off a half-giants hand (which is larger and tougher than your torso) just like that, then you don't need to worry about that half-giant subduing you anyway.

What would be more likely to happen, is that you score a little cut on the half-giants massive, leathery, and probably well-armored hand before he lifts you off the ground and tears your limbs off.

[Tamarin]

I don't care how big the HG is, if his hand gets anywhere near me when while I have my swords drawn, he's going to lose his hand.

If you're such a hardcase that you can chop off a half-giants hand (which is larger and tougher than your torso) just like that, then you don't need to worry about that half-giant subduing you anyway.

What would be more likely to happen, is that you score a little cut on the half-giants massive, leathery, and probably well-armored hand before he lifts you off the ground and tears your limbs off.

Bullshit.  There's not a HG in the game that has skin like obsidian.  And i'm sure my quick little human is fast enough to avoid your big dumb half giant, and run up in between your massive legs to hit you in the massive balls.  Thank you very much.

And yes I -do- need to worry about him subduing me, because once subdue lands, my defense means shit, and the HGs monstrous strength will knock me out in one punch.

If HGs can do this easily, then they are godlike, and its just too much for this game to be any fun.  They should be slowed -way- down...while carrying all that bulky muscle around, there's no way they're keeping up with a human or elf.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Bullshit.  There's not a HG in the game that has skin like obsidian.  And i'm sure my quick little human is fast enough to avoid your big dumb half giant, and run up in between your massive legs to hit you in the massive balls.  Thank you very much.

Is your entire arguement going to be:  My warrior is so bad-ass that not even a half-giant would dare to mess with him?  If so, then I won't bother to continue.

[EvilRoeSlade]

And yes I -do- need to worry about him subduing me, because once subdue lands, my defense means shit, and the HGs monstrous strength will knock me out in one punch.

Of course you need to -worry-.  That's because your character isn't as badass as you seem to think he is.  Compared to a half-giant, few people are.

If HGs can do this easily, then they are godlike, and its just too much for this game to be any fun.  They should be slowed -way- down...while carrying all that bulky muscle around, there's no way they're keeping up with a human or elf.

You mean, the game wouldn't be -fair- not fun.  And my answer to this is, the game wasn't built to be fair.  It was built to be harsh.

There is a reason half-giants are a karma race.  That reason is that they don't need weapons to kill you anymore than a sorceror does.  Coincidently, that's the same reason that its not a good idea to piss them off.

[Tamarin]

Bullshit.  There's not a HG in the game that has skin like obsidian.  And i'm sure my quick little human is fast enough to avoid your big dumb half giant, and run up in between your massive legs to hit you in the massive balls.  Thank you very much.

Is your entire arguement going to be:  My warrior is so bad-ass that not even a half-giant would dare to mess with him?  If so, then I won't bother to continue.

My argument isn't that my warrior is bad-ass.  My warrior is far from it.

My argument is that I don't think its realistic.  Did you even read the rest of my post?  Half giants are -slow-.   Slow slow slow slow slow.  And stupid.  Slow and stupid and childish.  Any quick humanoid (not HGs) with half-decent reflexes should be able to stay out of the way of a big lumbering half-giant.  

And excuse me?  Make flee suck more?  Um...no.  Do you have any idea how many people die already?  I think that's evidence enough that that would be a bad idea.

[Gorobei]

I love fighting games, but I hate them for implanting the idea into the general population that just because someone is big they have to be slow and awkward.  If you think that a half-giant would not be able to move it's limbs as quickly as a human, try this simple mental excercise that I just made up and I hope it works.

First, imagine a human.  Go with whatever gender you'd like.  Personally, I'm using a female.
She's holding her arm straight in front of her, and swinging it back and forth as quickly as she can.

Next, imagine a half-giant performing the same action.  She likely seems that she's moving slower than the human, right?  That's probably hard to argue against, due to the powers of momentum.

Once you super-impose the two images, however, it's clear that the half-giant's fist is moving at a much higher rate.  She's moving slower proportionally, but the fact that her range of motion is fifteen feet, rather than five, more than makes up for it.

P.S.  My thoughts on flee:
Give it a pre-lag, and add a command called persue, that would allow the opponant to chase the flee'r into the next room.  Discuss amongst yourselves.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Did you even read the rest of my post?  Half giants are -slow-.   Slow slow slow slow slow.  And stupid.  Slow and stupid and childish.  Any quick humanoid (not HGs) with half-decent reflexes should be able to stay out of the way of a big lumbering half-giant.

If that were true, then half-giants couldn't be used for combat at all, let alone trained in it.  A low agility can be interpeted in many ways.  Slow reflexes, poor hand to eye coordination, even bad vision.  But as it happens, the Allanaki government employs legions of them.  Perhaps it isn't as easy to stay out of the way of a blood-crazed, charging half-giant as you seem to imagine it is.  The code and game-world seem to reflect it.  It's no accident that half-giants are coded the way they are.  It isn't a bug that needs to be fixed, it's simply another part of the gameworld.

Considering how much muscle a half-giant has, when she finally does manage to lunge, it's going to be as fast as hell.  Muscle mass does cause accelerated movement after all, that's why muls and dwarves cause so much damage.

And excuse me?  Make flee suck more?  Um...no.  Do you have any idea how many people die already?  I think that's evidence enough that that would be a bad idea.

Do YOU have any idea how many people die in any given day/week/month?  Are you keeping some sort of a census on it?  If you are, please share.  I'm sure the information would be most fascinating.

[Tamarin]

The sheer volume of sumitted characters that comes up on the weekly update e-mails is proof enough that people are dying.  Don't change flee unless you're ready to change attacks as well.

[number13]

Complaints about flee highlight a shortcoming of the current system, a relic from the diku codebase.   One of the automatic assumptions of the game is that if something attacks you, you attack back.  This has lead to the ugly hack that is nosave--a little flag that has cost me at least three characters (twice for forgetting to turn it on, once when I forget to turn it off)

I'd change this first off--you shouldn't start trading blows until you type "kill" or "hit"....until that time you are in "defense" mode, with bonuses to your defensive skills and the ability to use non-combat commands.  Kill or hit would default to attacking whoever's attacking you, to make it easier on slow typers.

In many situations this makes sense.  If a Templar or militiaman decides to subdue or otherwise attack my character, there's a good chance that he's not going to attack back.  If a confused soul accidentally strikes his own kank, the kank is much more likely just to skitter away rather than attack in kind.  If a mugger decides he's had enough of a non-combative wimp's stalling, little doubt the wimp won't be punching back.

If there was a (defense mode) command that allowed you to stop dishing out blows, you could then use the movement command in lieu of flee....or the "hide" command to skitter behind some rubble then "backstab" to jump back out at your opponent.  But just like the "get" command, there should be an attack of opportunity before you take a non-combat action, like leaving the room.  If the AoO hits, there's a chance (maybe based on the guard skill vs. the flee skill) that the defender's actions are interrupted--canceled.  

Plus, this means the attacker can go into (defense mode) breaking his end of the combat without fleeing.  So if the wimp complies and hands over his coins, the mugger can back off.  Or if your kank fails to flee, you can stop yourself from butchering it.  Or if the militiaman decides you've had enough of a beating...and so on.

(it occurs to me that spellcasting is another good example of a skill that would be used in defense mode rather than while you are trying to slap someone to death)

[EvilRoeSlade]

If there was a (defense mode) command that allowed you to stop dishing out blows, you could then use the movement command in lieu of flee....or the "hide" command to skitter behind some rubble then "backstab" to jump back out at your opponent.  But just like the "get" command, there should be an attack of opportunity before you take a non-combat action, like leaving the room.  If the AoO hits, there's a chance (maybe based on the guard skill vs. the flee skill) that the defender's actions are interrupted--canceled.

Most of your post makes sense.  But how the hell are you supposed to find a place to hide, and then get out of sight when you're being whacked with a sword?

[Tamarin]

If there was a (defense mode) command that allowed you to stop dishing out blows, you could then use the movement command in lieu of flee....or the "hide" command to skitter behind some rubble then "backstab" to jump back out at your opponent.  But just like the "get" command, there should be an attack of opportunity before you take a non-combat action, like leaving the room.  If the AoO hits, there's a chance (maybe based on the guard skill vs. the flee skill) that the defender's actions are interrupted--canceled.

Most of your post makes sense.  But how the hell are you supposed to find a place to hide, and then get out of sight when you're being whacked with a sword?

You flee, spot a large crate, duck behind it, and use the cover to get away from your persuer and hide behind something else.  In such a dirty crowded city as 'nak, I'd see lots of angles/stalls/stands/crates/wagons/carts all over the place to make this feasable.

[Lerl]

I'd like to see combat in the streets.  Maybe I'm just paranoid but I can't imagine ever doing it as a commoner.  A half-giant would run in fail subdue, then kill me with five friends.  I'm sure this been discussed before and rejected, but thats my wish related to combat.
Rick

[EvilRoeSlade]

The sheer volume of sumitted characters that comes up on the weekly update e-mails is proof enough that people are dying.  Don't change flee unless you're ready to change attacks as well.

Yes, people are indeed dying.  Thank you for informing me of that.

I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of changing attacks.  If you have something in mind, then lets hear it.

I don't understand how you've come to the conclusion that there's some magick threshold that shouldn't be crossed because it would mean people are dying too much.  Personally, I rarely die to an NPC unless I foolishly decide to fight to the death.  I've never died to a PC who didn't trap me in a room, or catch me on foot.  I think that there should be a lot more room for conflict than those limited scenarioes.  Also, it would help control backstab-flee abusers.  What's there to lose?

[EvilRoeSlade]

You flee, spot a large crate, duck behind it, and use the cover to get away from your persuer and hide behind something else.  In such a dirty crowded city as 'nak, I'd see lots of angles/stalls/stands/crates/wagons/carts all over the place to make this feasable.

That would all require putting distance between yourself and your attacker.

Therefore, I am against allowing people to hide while they are being hacked out, without even having to make an effort to escape.

If you want to run one room away and hide, then that's all well and good.

[number13]

You flee, spot a large crate, duck behind it, and use the cover to get away from your persuer and hide behind something else.  In such a dirty crowded city as 'nak, I'd see lots of angles/stalls/stands/crates/wagons/carts all over the place to make this feasable.

*nod*

I'm imagining the rooms in the mud as being larger than a 10 foot square.  Plenty of action should be able to occur in the same "room". Though I think there should be penalties for trying to hide while someone's in the same room (if there aren't already).

...the AoO handles the case of an attacker stopping you from hiding.

Like this:

Groo wacks you with a sword, ouchies.

>:kicks dirt in %Groo face, then skitters towards some rubble.
>hide

Groo, rubbing dirt out his eyes, says, "Where'd the fecker go?"

[gfair]

More than anything, I would like to see height play a huge role in combat, because it does in real life.

For example - a half-giant can be hit in the head and neck as easily as a halfling.  In boxing, Dwarves are incredibly tough and somehow pose a threat to humans, despite the fact that when a Human views a Dwarf in a hood, they are called "The very short figure".

More than anything else, I would like to see the combat code updated to handle height in a realistic fashion.