Combat improvements discussion

[EvilRoeSlade]

Gfair, with that statement I can almost forgive you for your inforgivable views on thievery.  But of course I can't actually, being inforgivable as they are.

Keep looking over your shoulder.

[Forest Junkie]

I don't care how big the HG is, if his hand gets anywhere near me when while I have my swords drawn, he's going to lose his hand.

If you're such a hardcase that you can chop off a half-giants hand (which is larger and tougher than your torso) just like that, then you don't need to worry about that half-giant subduing you anyway.

What would be more likely to happen, is that you score a little cut on the half-giants massive, leathery, and probably well-armored hand before he lifts you off the ground and tears your limbs off.

Bullshit.  There's not a HG in the game that has skin like obsidian.  And i'm sure my quick little human is fast enough to avoid your big dumb half giant, and run up in between your massive legs to hit you in the massive balls.  Thank you very much.

And yes I -do- need to worry about him subduing me, because once subdue lands, my defense means shit, and the HGs monstrous strength will knock me out in one punch.

If HGs can do this easily, then they are godlike, and its just too much for this game to be any fun.  They should be slowed -way- down...while carrying all that bulky muscle around, there's no way they're keeping up with a human or elf.

Uberbuddy, HG's are monster gods for a reason. What's the point of having a karma class if there are no perks?

Yes, Hg's DO have incredible thickness in their skin. Think Braxat, except not quite as hardy, minus the shell as well.

Hg's don't have to be quick to grab you when their hand is the size of your head. They are not as slow as you think probably...

[gfair]

Gfair, with that statement I can almost forgive you for your inforgivable views on thievery.  But of course I can't actually, being inforgivable as they are.

Keep looking over your shoulder.

I know I'm not the only one who read this and thought "Huh?"  Can you explain this more clearly, please?

[Quirk]

Half-giants are already quite adequately advantaged by the combat system. Their clumsiness may make it difficult for them to land a blow, but when they do, it certainly counts.

They should not be the subdue machines they are though. If they can't coordinate well enough to even brush the dancing warrior beneath them with a club or their bare hand while trying to strike at their opponent, how are they to wrap that hand round them and seize them with the vast ease they do in game? Escaping a half-giant subdue should be all but impossible, but being caught by one in the first place should be along the same level of likelihood as having the half-giant land a bare-handed strike, perhaps slightly less probable.

There has to be some consistency here.

Quirk

[gfair]

a half-giants hand (which is larger and tougher than your torso)

Is this remotely true?  A half-giant is about twice as tall as a man, so his wrist is twice the diameter of a 6.25 foot man. That is big, but nowhere near a torso.

That is, unless half-giants are barrel-fisted cave trolls.

Half-giants are already quite adequately advantaged by the combat system. Their clumsiness may make it difficult for them to land a blow, but when they do, it certainly counts.

They should not be the subdue machines they are though. If they can't coordinate well enough to even brush the dancing warrior beneath them with a club or their bare hand while trying to strike at their opponent, how are they to wrap that hand round them and seize them with the vast ease they do in game? Escaping a half-giant subdue should be all but impossible, but being caught by one in the first place should be along the same level of likelihood as having the half-giant land a bare-handed strike, perhaps slightly less probable.

There has to be some consistency here.

Quirk

New idea thats an old idea.
The ever touted stop code.
I type stop. I propose a truce. Opponent types stop. Fight stops.

[Armaddict]

Me, I've always been of the opinion that half-giants are not buff ENOUGH in close combat.  Yes, they're supposed to be fast, but their low agility reflects other disadvantages.  However...this makes them -unbearably- easy to kill unless they're lucky and live a dozen or so days, with training, to get their defensive skills to the point that your every-day, average joe can't thwack them, and their offensive skills to the point that they can hit often enough (from their slowed attacks) for that massive damage to play a major role in combat.

They've got tremendous reach, their sheer mass works like armor (larger vitals, making your smaller weapons make more insignificant wounds, as well as more muscle between you and the more vulnerable parts of the body).  He's got serious height advantage.  I mean, an elf might be able to get a decent swipe at his head...though it would be hard, in the heat of battle, since it would take a longer weapon (I think, haven't actually done the math.)

Not only that, but think of the sheer -force- of something that big hitting you.  I've always toyed with the idea that half-giants should have each of their successful hits have a chance of acting like a bash, knocking you down.  I don't think it would be at all strange to see a normal sized human go down from a strong knock from something that big, if it didn't knock them almost a dozen cords anyway.

Half-giants...should be monsters.  You -should- be scared of them...if you're planning on fighting them head to head, anyway.  And until they get some more advantages to them to reflect their monstrosity in combat, I just couldn't justify taking away their advantages with subdue.  It is what -saves- half-giants from people easily attacking them, knowing that they aren't as hard to take down as their size would suggest.

Those people who griped how people weren't scared enough of magickers, and how they needed to be improved against the average fighter...half-giants are in the same boat.

Woot.  I just realized, I think this whole thing was off topic, but it got mentioned

[Comrade Canadia]

What I would like to see in armag combat:

Combat styles.  

On a primitive level, it'd be cool if you could set how offensive and defensive you were.  On a more -advanced- level, it'd be very neat if you could actually get styles that would change things like weapon damages and speed and defense ratings.

For example - you could have an Allanaki style, which would mean that you're -very- defensive, and looking for precise, well timed hits... due to less armour.

Or a northern style, where you go with constant fast, light hits, with an emphasis on parrying rather than dodging.  

Now, the BIG one.

Emphasis on strength over agility

Alright, let me explain my argument here.  In armag, I have noticed that unless you are AMAZINGLY strong, strength has never been much of an issue.  However, I have noticed that in my -many- warrior characters, a high agility has always owned over a high strength.  Frankly, I feel this is unrealistic.

For one, if you just look ta people around you... the people you are afraid of are not little quick people.  They are big, strong people.  I konw some amazingly agile people, but unless they're like 15 year martial artists, the big strong person will destroy them in a fight.  I'm 6' and 210 pounds, and I am not intimidated by small, quick people at all.  Yet... if armag rules made sense, I would be terrified of them.

To apply this more practically, take a sword.  Swords, even thos emade of bone, are heavy.  Someone who is light and quick and mildly strong is not going to be able to USE their quickness as much as they could because the sword weighs them down, keeps them in place, slows their shots, and makes their attacks miss morebecause the weight drags you down.  Someone who is amazingly strong will be able to get the sword to go -EXACTLY- where he/she wants it, and get it back in time to parry a blow.

Yeah, knives don't weigh you down.  Knives are also inferior weapons.  People never charged into war with knives for a reason.  The idea of the quick guy you can never hit, and keeps on poking you with his weapon doesn't HAPPEN unless the quick guy is an absolute god in combat.  Anyways, my point to this:  I'd like it if dexterity wasn't OBVIOUSLY the best combat skill.  Strength is important, of course... but dexterity is really secondary, if we're dealing with big guys covered in armour swining gigantic lengths of bone.

-Der Comrade

[Morrolan]

Anyways, my point to this:  I'd like it if dexterity wasn't OBVIOUSLY the best combat skill.  Strength is important, of course... but dexterity is really secondary, if we're dealing with big guys covered in armour swining gigantic lengths of bone.

(emphasis mine)

Strength still is more important than you give it credit for.

Two guys in the same armor.  One is stronger.  His encumberance
is "easily manageable".  The other, wearing the same armor,
is "manageable".  The encumberance makes a -huge- difference,
in my experience.

Morrolan

[Dude]

For one, if you just look ta people around you... the people you are afraid of are not little quick people. They are big, strong people. I konw some amazingly agile people, but unless they're like 15 year martial artists, the big strong person will destroy them in a fight. I'm 6' and 210 pounds, and I am not intimidated by small, quick people at all. Yet... if armag rules made sense, I would be terrified of them.

Fear has -nothing- to do with ability. Neither does intimidation. In fact, your statement has just shown why, someone my size (5'9", 170lbs.) will win more often than not...you underestimate your opponent and make stupid mistakes thinking like that.

Also, so you are stronger than me...big deal if you can't ever land a blow on me.

I've ended up in enough fights with much bigger and stronger people to know that I -will- win as long as I don't let them hit me.

I've had more trouble with people closer to my size because they are simply harder to hit.

[number13]

I've ended up in enough fights with much bigger and stronger people to know that I -will- win as long as I don't let them hit me.

I've had more trouble with people closer to my size because they are simply harder to hit.

On the internet, everyone's a ninja.

Seeing how I'm on the internet, I'll pretend I'm a ninja too:  yes, I can punch big guys and avoid their blows.  Not terribly effective in the end, given that a single punch of a large drunk frat guy can lay me out but a hundred punches from me will just tickle my larger opponent.  Just little bruises for my (ex-)girlfriend to kiss when she wanders off with the victor.

(the idea that *anyone* is hard to hit in a fistfight is laughable, of course.)

On armageddon, I had a guy with godlike agility--he could stand toe to toe with citystate uber-guards when he was 1-day old.  I also had a character with the same score in strength--the result?  He was splattered fairly early in his career by a lone city guard while surrounded by allies helping fight, just a couple of rounds into the combat.

The point is, higher agility characters have an easier time training up their combat skills.  If both of these characters had lived to be 20-days old it's possible they'd be equivelent, or the high strength guy might have been even better at combat.  The chances of the high agility guy surviving till 20 days is much much higher--seems that way to me anyway.

Any other game I'd called B.S.  Since this is a harsh desert world, it might make sense that agility rules the day.  If I ever end up with another high agility character, I'll just have to spare a few high str dudes to help carry my stuff.

[number13]

...double post removed

[Akaramu]

On armageddon, I had a guy with godlike agility--he could stand toe to toe with citystate uber-guards when he was 1-day old.  I also had a character with the same score in strength--the result?  He was splattered fairly early in his career by a lone city guard while surrounded by allies helping fight, just a couple of rounds into the combat.

Must have been luck, cause my godlike agility PC was splattered by a single guard within seconds. And older than one day.

Shitty strength, high agility... I've seen the combination effects first hand. I see quite a difference in damage dealt compared to a high strength person. nick, nick, light slash compared to slash, very hard, solid slash at about the same armor level on the body parts in question.

[Anarchy]

I tend to agree, agility would 'rule' over strength. the perfect warrior on arm would be short, thin and very quick. Strength is a small factor. Agility is not just the ability to dodge, its foot work, the ability to move a weapon into place etc. Sure a pc with low strength wont hit as hard, but the fact they hit twice as often makes up for that.

Half-giants are monsters because its =close combat= and the sheer size of their weapons is going to hit you while your trying to hit the giant. Not because of agility strength, etc its because they wield HUGE weapons and people fight close up.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Arriving late to help discuss improvements in combative coding, I'll start with number13's post. His first one. I like it, fully. If we were to implement defensive stances, it would allow for far more realistic play and senarios.

Someone mentioned hit locations and the oddities in combat regarding that. I agree. It is foolishness for a dwarf to ever hit a half-giant in the head unless that half-giant is unconsious. It is generally foolishness for a dwarf to hit a elf in the head. However, taking into account the length of the arm (which tends to be about 1/3 the body height, and the length of a weapon, it is not foolish to see a dwarf hit a human in the head. For a giant to ever hit anyone shorter than an elf or a very tall human in the head should be slmost automatic. The only reason I say almost is because in the fight, skill will come to play a factor.

On the same note, in another thread dealing with subdue, someone complains about the half-giant subdues. In case noone is aware of this, fighting with the hands is far easier than fighting with a weapon. Therefore, the next time I hear that a half-giant shouldn't be able to almost auto-subdue you, I am going to seriously consider going to lengths to teach you something about it. I don't know how I am going to, but I am. I think you need to look at the situation more closely, and then reconsider you obviously errant opinion concerning the state of the half-giant's abilities. Physics themselves dictate the ability of the half-giant to nearly automatically subdue.

Someone also stated that a half-giant should be able to hit much easier. This I don't agree with. While it is true that a half-giant is nowhere near as clumsy as the code might suggest, a blow from one is far more likely to be seen coming, and thus avoided. If folks can dodge cars, they can dodge a half-giant.

I would like to see combat become more deadly. Currently, it is very unrealistic. Half of the blows inflicted upon folk should kill them or break and shatter armor. However, many folks survive a great number of fights where they should have died because of the way the code is designed. Here is a concrete. If a half-giant hits you in the head, armor or not, as long as they have a weapon, you should fucking die. Your helmet should shatter, you should be knocked out. If a mul slashs you in the head, you should fucking die. It the blow bypasses your armor and causes more than a nick or graze, it should hurt.

Something else that would be interesting to see is non-permenant injuries. If you get hit hard/unspeakably/astoundly/insert-favorite-violent-noun-here with a sword in the neck, you should seriously lose access to half your hitpoints for a good RL day.

The long description injury messages need to be changed. In another thread, I posted some ideas. They seemed well recieved. Currently, the manner in which things are stated are not completely accurate. Given a less subjective description, they will be.

You should be able to subdue in combat. You should risk great injury, but you should be able to try. A half-giant might lose fifty hp or more trying it, but rest assured that, given the laws of physics, a half-giant will typically succeed in his attempted mid-combat subdue attempt.

Given time, I will post here again with a few more ideas that I've had over the past 4 years.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Additionally, it should be noted that the styles of gear in the south are different ICly than in the North. This affects the impact of various stats upon combat as a whole. In the South, agility will rule, but in the North, strength should rule.

I am not certian how the shops reflect the variation in style from the South to the North, but if they do not currently, they should be changed to reflect this correctly.

[Tamarin]

I would like to see some sort of "awareness" skill or stat.  This could change based on how much you fight/train, whether or not you have scan/listen/hunt, some combination of agility/wisdom.  Basically, the more you train, the more alert you will be in general.  I.e., sitting in a tavern, you still, in the back of your mind, expect someone to jump out from behind the bar and try to stab you with a knife.  Something along the lines of:

A attacks B.

B has good awareness at the moment, so gets a message like:

"This person is about to strike at you.  Do something." (i.e. a delay to:get off your ass/draw a weapon/flee"

B takes an appropriate action.

Then the fight begins.

[Tamarin]

Additionally, in a room with like....more than 5 or six PCs/NPCs, combat should definitely be changed.  As it is, its just freakin' chaos.  I recently was in a situation where there were approximately 15 fighters in one room.  The battle spam was awful...I had no idea what was going on...

What I suggest is this:

In a situation where there is a ridiculous amount of people in a room fighting:

a) No more than 2v1 melee combat.  Its just...unrealistic.

b) When you are concentrated on fighting one person, you aren't looking around, able to see the whole area.  The look command should just show you that you're fighting your target, but also a message along the lines of: "there is a chaotic battle happening here, right now."  However, there should be another command that will let you scope out the whole area.  Like: "look area".

c) because of idea b), it would be signicantly harder to spot and rescue someone.  Which is how large scale battle actually is.  There are so many bodies romping around that it should be very difficult to maneuver yourself into a postion whereby you can rescue someone from a match.

d) If you flee during large scale combat, you should just leave combat, and be absorbed into the "there is a chaotic battle happening here" message.  So you're still in the room, but your last opponent will have to use the "look area" command to find you, and maneuver their way over to you.

I could go on, but you get the idea I'm sure.

[UnderSeven]

Combat styles, someone brought it up, I'm going to now get out the anti-air craft guns.

This idea is bad.  Why? Bruce Lee's theories about fixed positions.  Nothing, no action a human does is fixed.  We can be trained to do something a certain way every time but it's NEVER actually fixed, we just do our best to make it that way.  Where is my point?

Coded combat styles would be fixed without any means of alterations.  That's far more unrealistic than simply not having them and letting you rp out how your char is fighting in combat.  The open ended way our code currently deals with combat (telling you only if you hit or miss, where and how hard) is better.

If anything I would agree maybe altering your chars dependance might be nice.  How much you try to focus on any given skill, for instance.  This would make sense, much like when the mercy code went in.  I've seen games with combat moods, offensive defensive, but my experience there is those moods don't add anything, they're a waste of time, most people will just pick one and stick to it.

Strength vs agi.

I don't think this is any contest.  Muls rule.  Case closed.

Half giants.

Killing machines.. Hrm.. I think they're actually where they should be.  One, they take hits, two if they hit they destroy you.  What more do you want?  Theyre bulky, there are some things they probably can't do as well as other people. Most likely when they throw a blow it goes and leaves them opened for a moment.  Ever tried catching a chipmunk with your bare hands?  Yes, smaller creatures do have an incredible advantage at avoiding the attacks of larger ones.  (Using an extreme example)

Another thing, this reminds me. Half giants ARE scary, they just need to live long enough, what you want to make them come out newbie capible of killing EVERYTHING?  That's dumb, infact, I think I need the nuclear anti air craft gun for that.  But when you get a half giant who'se been around a while, they can take stuff out no one else can.  So what is broken here?

Awareness? I think this is a bad idea, too much is going on and you can't expect your char to be constantly vigiliant.  Such a skil would detract from npcs an vnpcs that might distract you and give you a hard coded skill in a place that one shouldn't be.  

So what does combat need in my opinion? I think we need a wound and damage system.  This isn't exactly combat, but anyway, make physicians (people who do the bandage thing) Actually useful.  

I also wish it wasn't so obvious that someone was alive or dead.  I couldn't tell from a long distance away that the man lying in a pool of blood is lving and just stunned.  Actually I couldn't tell it from upclose either, I'd probably have to lean in and check for a faint pulse or a occasional wheezing breath.  I've always hated how people finish off their enemies with that one final knowing blow.  How did you know he was still alive..? How do you know that you only now finally finished him?  I think it should take a little closer scrutiny to find out if someone is alive or not beyond a certain point.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Is this remotely true?  A half-giant is about twice as tall as a man, so his wrist is twice the diameter of a 6.25 foot man. That is big, but nowhere near a torso.

That is, unless half-giants are barrel-fisted cave trolls.

Half-giants are a LOT more muscular and powerful than humans.  If a human was magically enlarged to the size of a half-giant, the half-giant could still take him apart with little trouble.

I'm not pulling this out of my ass, either.  Next time you're in Allanak, read the description of a generic NPC half-giant soldier.

And yes, I agree that perhaps the subdue-kill deal isn't the best way to handle a half-giants deadliness.  But until the code reflects a half-giants superior height, superior natural armor, and superior reach, then a half-giant needs something to make them fearsome.

[Carnage]

This idea is bad. Why? Bruce Lee's theories about fixed positions. Nothing, no action a human does is fixed. We can be trained to do something a certain way every time but it's NEVER actually fixed, we just do our best to make it that way. Where is my point?

Coded combat styles would be fixed without any means of alterations. That's far more unrealistic than simply not having them and letting you rp out how your char is fighting in combat. The open ended way our code currently deals with combat (telling you only if you hit or miss, where and how hard) is better.

I wouldn't say that. I'd expect Allanaki styles to have faster attacks and harder hits, while Tuluki would slow down other attackers with their elaborate movements and have a defensive edge.

[UnderSeven]

Which could be done one of two ways.

1) style Allanaki
(which would adjust your char to depend more on one thing and less on another)

OR

giving you the option of setting depedancies with a help file that describes the different style.

The automatic number 1 method would write how you do it in stone.

I'm against anything that makes physical actions written in stone if they don't ahve to be.  Since we don't currently have figthting styles, I believe they fit in the don't have to catigory.

[Quo]

[...]  One of the automatic assumptions of the game is that if something attacks you, you attack back.

I'd change this first off--you shouldn't start trading blows until you type "kill" or "hit"....until that time you are in "defense" mode, with bonuses to your defensive skills and the ability to use non-combat commands.  Kill or hit would default to attacking whoever's attacking you, to make it easier on slow typers.

If there was a (defense mode) command that allowed you to stop dishing out blows, you could then use the movement command in lieu of flee....or the "hide" command to skitter behind some rubble then "backstab" to jump back out at your opponent.

Plus, this means the attacker can go into (defense mode) breaking his end of the combat without fleeing.  [...]

(it occurs to me that spellcasting is another good example of a skill that would be used in defense mode rather than while you are trying to slap someone to death)

I have selected a few passages from 13's post because I have seen a similar system discussed and implemented elsewhere, and the result was convincing from day #1.

There is a series of combat 'moods' modifying the chances to hit and be hit.

[*] frenzy  -- no defense at all, blind rage.
[*] ...     -- not really watching his back much...
[*] balanced  -- default.
[*] ...  -- rather worried about his health, might score an occasional hit if the opponent leaves an opening...
[*] defend -- just dodge and parry, don't even try to land a hit. [/list]

Being attacked does put the attacked into combat, so he won't continue to arrange the flowers for his beloved while being hacked away.
Please note that it would not allow the attacked to hide while someone else was slashing at him. Someone hitting at you won't go away becaue you pull a towel over your head, no matter how large the place is, he's alreay there, and it'll take more to get away than just ignore him, or not hit back.

Both combattants in defend means that noone is pursuing to attack,
but technically they're still in combat until they end it. (I could imagine a time-out there).

Since most D&D dereived combat systems probably evaluate physical abilities (agility for example) as a chance percentage, the hooks where such a system can go into effect might be already there, easing implementation a lot.

I'd love to see that implemented on Armageddon, it helps immensely especially for the less (or different) combat oriented chars. To me, this is all there'd need to be in 'different combat styles', especially since it helps to define an emoting style that is more in sync with the coded combat.

[UnderSeven]

• frenzy  -- no defense at all, blind rage.
  
• ...     -- not really watching his back much...
  
• balanced  -- default.
  
• ...  -- rather worried about his health, might score an occasional hit if the opponent leaves an opening...
  
• defend -- just dodge and parry, don't even try to land a hit.

I've seen it implemented exactly like that before.  For the most part the games I've seen that on it doesn't add really at all. Maybe a simplified version with no returning attack.. But if you are in combat it's assumed you're not tring to get killed. Maybe you arn't tring to kill..

But you can adjust that stuff with what equipment you use and how you use it.  I don't think it should be a coded thing.  I've never seen one of these types of things implemented and make any difference.

[Dan]

I really like combat just the way it is. Sorry I can't add anything constructive, but I just wanted to throw that out.