How to Discourage Staff, in One Easy Step

[Sanvean]

I'd like to open something up for discussion, because from the staff side of things, it's really discouraging, and I'm curious how it's perceived from the player side as well as if there are any suggestions how to prevent it.

Here's the scenario:
Staffer A puts time, energy, and love into a new area for the game. Maybe it's only a few rooms, but with something in it that they consider very neat. At some point down the line, they find out that a player or players are using it as a source of loot: every time the game reboots the PC runs to the area in order to kill all the NPCs and take any items they can find.

Examples:
- a camp with a unique item intended to be part of that tribe's culture, which a PC takes in order to sell, to the point where the uniqueness is destroyed.
- a city area intended to be atmospheric, which a PC runs through on a regular basis, murdering everyone in sight.

If you've done this or something similar in the past - what's going through your head when you do it? Presumably you have a different version of the actions in your head - what's that version look like?

Aside from making sure that NPCs are clanned correctly and are buff enough to defend themselves - is there any way staff can avoid this other than not putting things into the game in the first place? What signals can we provide as builders that an area is not intended as the equivalent of the Smurf Village?

[John]

Well I've never done something like this, but if it's the SAME player doing this every reboot, then I think that's highly unrealistic. After all, he would of killed the tribe off by now  :roll:

Also, if it's suppose to be a unique item, perhaps make it so that when it is stolen, it doesn't repop and a flag is waved to the staff. That way they can make a small mini-plot about people getting the item back

[SailorMars]

What signals can we provide as builders that an area is not intended as the equivalent of the Smurf Village?

I don't do what is described, but I'm guessing most often players who really want to H&S do it, or, rarely, the psychotic character. Of course, Zalanthas is a harsh place, where you can fight for a scrap of food or a sip of water, so maybe killing anyone you can and taking their shit is not all that psychotic, rather it's survival? I'm playing Devil's Advocate on that last part, because it sounds like the people doing it are obviously camping the zone in a cheesy way.

Anyway, my suggestion is: Code the zone mobs into groups. If one member of the group is attacked, everyone in the room helps out. Make it so NPCs can witness an attack one room away, and those also come to help out. The motivation for the group tactics can be anything from a village protecting its own, to "Oh, there's a fight? I'll join in and loot that dead guy who started the fight." Hey, if the PCs are psycho, the NPCs might be too, right? Heh, if people keep coming to steal their artifacts they might be especially testy. Or simply use justice, where VNPC guards come destroy the agitator.

Unfortunately, in any gaming environment, you get the losers that follow the letter of the law and not the spirit, i.e. "If the rules allow it, I will do it, even if it's obviously cheesy." Gotta make consequences that don't involve the imms catching them in the act everytime, because that's just not realistic.

There's my 2 'sids.

[YellowCactus]

Armageddon has been my first and only Mudd.  The learning curve for emoting and using commands was tough and took a month to really get proficient.  The Virtual Rp is the real challenge to any stranger to Armageddon.  It's taken me well over a year to adjust my actions from 'what my character can do' to 'what my character should do'.  I don't believe my long list of Armageddon sins fall exactly into Sanvean's scenario of mundane abuse.  But it seems like direct contact with the offending player/s would be most effective.  It's always been an effective way of handling my miss-moves.  "Hey You!  What do you think your doing!"  That's all the feedback I can give you.  Be patient...... :wink:
And take your frustrations out with a heavy handed templar!

[Angela Christine]

Bummer.

Aside from making sure that NPCs are clanned correctly and are buff enough to defend themselves - is there any way staff can avoid this other than not putting things into the game in the first place? What signals can we provide as builders that an area is not intended as the equivalent of the Smurf Village?

Remove the reward.

Someone is exibiting an undesireable behavior.  What is their motivation, what do they gain?  

Take the case of a unique cultural item.  It isn't meant to drift into the economy, so set the value really low.  Merchants outside that group just don't care for the item, they don't like the materials or the workmanship.  For whatever reason they don't want to buy it, or they don't want to spend more than a couple 'sid on it, because there just isn't a market for it.  If the item isn't meant to be highly portable, increase the weight.  Lots of people will leave gith gear on the sands because it is heavy and practically worthless, so it isn't worth hauling back to town.  Most people are happy to avoid gith, because there is little incentive to "hunt" them.  Making the loot worth less is kind of cheating, but it is easier than the alternative.


Increase the risk.  

You can only make characters so strong before it becomes absurd, but you can increase the number of coded NPCs in the area.  Even something like a wimpy snake can kill you if 10 of them attack at once.  If a given area is supposed to have a couple thousand residents, but there are only a dozen coded NPCs, then an insane PC or two can "clear" the area even though they couldn't possibley deal with all the people that are there virtually.  Writing NPCs isn't something that seems to be really popular, but more NPCs that can assist eachother increases the risk to attackers.  Most places, whether decrepit slums or isolated tribal encampments are pretty crowded, because it is a hostile world so people huddle together.  Having a few NPCs in every single room is not unrealistic, and it makes it much more difficult for a crazed mass murderer to survive.  I think the number of "people" NPCs could be increased ten-fold throughout the game without being in the least unrealistic.  Anyplace there is an intelligent NPC now, put 10 intelligent NPCs.  Instead of a tribal camp having 10 NPCs, give them 50 or 100 NPCs and that still won't represent all the people living there.  Instead of a clan compound having 6 coded NPCs hanging around, have 60, that will still only be a fraction of the virtual employees and residents but it will make the situation more realistic for would-be miscreants.  Many of those NPCs would be children, old people, slaves not trained in combat, and other non-buff people, but even weak people will band together and fight back rather than waiting to be slaughtered one by one.  The wilderness should be lonely, but the settled areas should be bustling.  Many settled areas seem almost deserted, because you have to carefully read the room descriptions and fill in all the VNPCs with your imagination.

Unfortuantely writing hundreds or thousands of new NPCs is a daunting task.  So . . . I don't know.


AC

[ShaLeah]

Be warned, this may be too harsh, but... no one's ever accused me of being delicate, so here goes:

Make each and every area within a city, a city within itself, make any attack within that area have the PC be hunted by every PC in that area -and- the city that place is in, kind of like a lynching.  
For example, if I attack someone in Freil's Rest, I'd be wanted in Freil's -and- Tuluk -and- the Circle. Residents of Freil's along with legionnaires would attack me on sight. If I run to the Circle to escape, they'd attack me too.
Same thing with Allanak, if someone is attacked within the noble/templar/rinth/elementalist quarters, NPC's would jump to the attack.

I'm not saying make -all- NPC's attacking, but a good majority of them. Breaking up the cities into sections within the city and "clanning" them both areas would make it doubly difficult to get away with murder.  Yes, even the labyrinth since I have heard that that is THE place to buff your character up and twink backstab.  I can only assume one or two templar's have been greased to ensure Guild relations be discreetly ignored.
Save for noble estates/holdings, merchant house estate/holdings and private residences of more than one room.  One room houses off the road should be clanned city since more than likely someone walking by heard -something-.

Milder suggestions?

1- Make it really hard to get into.
2- Make anyone with a special item near impossible to kill.
3- Change the locations of special, unique items every so often so that potential abusers can't count on their location.
4- Make unique places like Private Rooms, where you have to ask the guard manning it to enter and pay. Wanna see all that crystal? Pay me X amount. Is that one harsh?

[jhunter (notlogged)]

If the item is an important cultural item, then wouldn't it be well-guarded?
Make it protected well-enough that only one very skilled or a group working together could possibly obtain it.
Also, as someone else said, if it is taken...wouldn't there be a planned effort to regain the item?
Hell, even if they were being cheesy in taking it...it'd be alot of fun to see what happens when those it was taken from go to get it back. :twisted:

[Narlac is no longer staff]

If the item is an important cultural item, then wouldn't it be well-guarded?
Make it protected well-enough that only one very skilled or a group working together could possibly obtain it.
Also, as someone else said, if it is taken...wouldn't there be a planned effort to regain the item?

This exact scenario happened with a project of mine back before I retired.  I had created a whole mythology around an object.  That object was set to be available in a location to represent the rest of the clan's population making a new one available.  The object was two rooms deep into an area with a carefully worded room title so as to discourage people from entering.  What happened?  Someone entered the area, spammed north twice, grabbed the object, then ran out.  They did this over and over ad nauseum.  They also sold the item to other players.  Now, what should have been done about this?  The people stolen from would have chased the person who did this down and slaughtered them without question.  Instead a discussion was had and the player stopped this activity.  

A good rule of thumb is to imagine how the chain of events you are planning out would go differently if one of those npcs you are about to victimize was a player.

[Gabriel]

"signalling intent" is synonymous with "relying on the player's self-restraint", and if you could do that then the issue wouldn't have come up in the first place. You have two options, or rather only one option with two styles of implementation: Change the risk/reward ratio for that area, either by upping the risk or lowering the reward.

Upping the risk can be handled as an IC issue (code more or tougher opponents, make escape more difficult, etc) or as an OOC issue (contact the offender, remove karma, terminate account). Reducing the reward can be accomplished by reducing either the cash value or the portability of the ph@t l3wt.

See also the classic "d00d essay": "Try considering d00ds as a genetic algorithm with the express purpose of solving the problem of finding bugs."

[X-D]

Me, I'm a fan of guardians and sleepers.

Guardian, this would be a very special npc that responds to an item's "curse" I've used them on a few muds, Basicly the item gets taken by somebody not of the item's clan and the guardian is activated, the guardian need not track the thief since it is tied to the item.


Sleepers are for areas, another fun deal, these are npc's that do not seem much of a threat,  loads of fun.
Like that old scarred one armed man, he might be a retired byn commander, maybe old, but has forgotten more tricks with the sword then other people will ever learn. That dirty hag in the ragged hood, attack her and find out she is some psycho berzerker carrying two plague-ridden daggers, that smirking dark-haired youth wandering down the road is really Tek slumming, that fat old dwarf who's folds of neck fat cover the gem that would have let you know he is a krathi of power. That guy in a blue robe and pointy hat carrying a stabbity knife.

Make them protective of other npc's in the area and let them see a room away.

Nice thing about it is, this means you don't need to put in tons of npcs or buff up each and every one

[naatok]

A long time ago in a university town far away....

I used to be one of these cheez whizzes.  It was over a decade ago when my pc of that day would kill a guard in old Tuluk over and over again in order to get the fella's metal hauberk...which was worth ALOT of 'sid just about anywhere.

My only saving grace for that piece of shit activity was that I came from a Diku called 'SillyMud' to Arm and it took me a while to grasp the significance of realistic roleplaying environments.  That and the fact that I'm not even remotely doing things like that anymore.

That said, I understand why people do this sort of thing.  The reason they do it is because they honestly do not consider the impact their pc has on the game world.....when consideration of that impact is a detriment to what the player wants to do, thinks is 'cool' or what would make the pc rich and powerful.  Oh, sure...so long as it typifies Supa /_337 stats, skills, powerplay then the impact of their pc is just groovy.  Just not when the consequences/effects of the activity are 'inconvenient' or 'a bummer'.

Having come from that at one point, I have to say that now....I HATE that attitude!  I've seen such play ruin so many awesome plots/environments in this game world over the years.  it SUCKS!

What I think can, and should be done about it are a few things....first, exactly what we ARE doing right here.  Talking about it.  Sanvean opening this topic up for discussion is probably the single most effective way of dealing with it and cutting down on its occurrence.  I'm not naive enough to believe it will stop completely.  There are just too many freakin' idiots in the real world.

I like the idea of making special items in such environments _limited_.  If one person in the game has one, then another such item will never be loaded.  I've seen this sort of thing on other muds back in the day.  Doesn't Arm's code allow for staff to do this, even if the item is saved in a player file and the player isn't logged in with the item?

As for PCs invading an area and stealing such things, again, there HAS to be some test for realism.  If 1-4 PCs go into an area and manage to slaughter every NPC in it, then something is wrong.  Certainly with the idiot players running said PCs, but also with how the area is coded or set up.

Personally, I LIKE the idea that PCs can find new areas through dangerous discovery and get something cool out of it.  If unique items can't be prevented from repopping once taken by a PC in code, then perhaps something could be set up that email's the mud account when the item is taken...or when a PC logs off with the item in their inventory (I like the first option, myself).
That way the staff can formulate a realistic and adequate response to the discovery of the new area, the death of any npcs therein, and the theft of any items from them or their environs.

I guess the most important question is....'Is it possible to set this up, codewise?'  The second most important question is....'Is it worth the time and effort staff have to put into it in order to have these unique areas/people/creatures/items in the game?

I honestly don't see how we can hope to curtail/prevent the discussed abuse if both these questions can't be answered with a 'Yes'.

As much as I really, really REALLY hate to say it....if not....then I wouldn't want staff to waste their time making these awesome additions to Zalanthas.  

[amish overlord]

Some ideas
1)(This I don't see and think would take way too much of imms time) Have animate or create a group of npcs's to track the guy down to kill him, have them show up in taverns and stuff asking about the guy.
2) Have a single npc going around and offering a bounty on the guy. A decen sized bounty, since the item is supposinbly atleast valuable to the tribe. Posibly post on the IC boards and have mudmail address of the imm in it ooc so they can animate an npc from whatever group to reward whoever gets the guy.

Just two of my own ideas. Think the one of making it worth almost nothing is a good one two, who would want a tribes skull totem or other wierd thing?

[Callisto]

If you want to send a message to players, adding more NPCs or buffing them up to absurd levels isn't going to do it, that will just force twinks to think up new tactics and find new holes to exploit. It is just like copy protection and the people who break them, the more you challenge, the more they pour themselves into 'winning.'

The best and only ways to break players of twinkish habits is plain OOC punishment and relevant options. You can animate that Templar NPC to scare the twink player a little, but that won't last, nor will surprise code. Even if you kill their PC, all you are going to do is piss them off OOCly and provoke them into looking to cut more corners in order to stick it to you.

A few ideas:

1) More notes and feedback - when someone does something wrong, make sure you warn them and offer suggestions on how to correct the problematic habits. If you just dish out harsh and disapproving notes, all it does is breed bad blood - go over the situation and take the time to explain things. Will it take a little more time? Sure, but odds are in the future you won't ever have to deal with that player doing it again.

2) More real punishment - when someone continues to cheat the game by exploiting bugs or holes in the code, take away some karma or issue a 24 hour ban. Short term you aren't going to lose players that wouldn't have left once they realized the coded game is empty, but even if you lose one or two, long term you are going to have players who have a lot more respect for the rules and game as a whole.

3) Staff members with a clan - pay more attention to the people who play in your clan. The big abuse breeder seems to come from, but not limited to, newer players who become bored with clan life. Throw together a quick RPT and scramble your PCs to take care of it. Spawn a drunken mul NPC that has taken a hostage in Kuraci holdings, have a slave NPC run rampant in the Borsail barracks, have an NPC Fale demanding a showing of goods from the Kadian warehouse. When things get dead slow, throw something in to spice it up, even if it doesn't take more then half an hour to solve, its something to break up a slump and keep people from doing stupid things.

4) Options - start a thread or post a call for ideas, like the salt gathering or obsidian mining in Allanak. Create some options for combat characters to earn some money that let's them do some fighting, since by and large most abuse comes from fighters and thieves, in my experience. The Arena in Allanak is ripe for some non-lethal and lethal combat where PCs can earn a little coin entertaining the masses. Setup a gauntlet where players can battle a line of random NPCs, such as first an NPC jozhal, then scrab, then a gith, then a beetle, etc. Have the NPC give rewards based on how the PC made it before having to flee.

Open it up to some PC vs. PC duals with coded support, where one can "challenge <whoever>" and the other person can "accept" or "refuse". Accepting could warp them into the arena (Via "rent me" code) and the two fight it out until one flees or dies, at which point they're given time to emote the victory or defeat before being warped back out and rewarded by NPC Templar for 50 'sid or something. Nothing major, but then PC fighters could earn a little drink and food money.

You could open an Allanaki fighting pit along similar lines, too, maybe below the Gaj.

Preventive options and real punishments would clear up the vast majority of minor to major twinking that goes on, in my opinion.

[mansa]

Give more warnings.  Please.  Tell us you are warning us.  Tell us what we did wrong.  Then tell us again.  Sometimes I don't know that you're really telling me that requesting for that jewelled phallus is really a -bad- idea.

[Forest Junkie]

Give more warnings.  Please.  Tell us you are warning us.  Tell us what we did wrong.  Then tell us again.

Agreed.  

Though, I do understand, I think, why the staff would be so upset over this. It is agravating, I know, and I hope you may find a way to resolve the issue at hand.

In the words of Jerry, "Help me, help you." =P

[Carnage]

Be blunt. If it was me in charge, the first thing I would do is transfer the person to some room I had to speak to problem players.

Then I'd say something along the following: "You're picking this area clean and abusing the code. If you keep doing this, I'm going to be upset. Right now I'm teetering on the edge of banning you for a week but some of the other imms are asking me to give you a second chance. So I'm going to. But the next time I catch you doing this, it'll be an insta-slay and you'll be banned as long as I feel like it."

From what I can tell of reading over the old player-staff meeting logs, it's what (Edit: Azroen, not Arkon) would do. And he looked like an imm I really wouldn't want to piss off.

[EvilRoeSlade]

What happened?  Someone entered the area, spammed north twice, grabbed the object, then ran out.  They did this over and over ad nauseum.  They also sold the item to other players.  Now, what should have been done about this?  The people stolen from would have chased the person who did this down and slaughtered them without question.

I think this is the real problem.  The PC would have died.  Why didn't they?  If you won't enforce IC consequences, then there will always be people who won't pay attention to them.  Wait for them at the reboot and have the entire tribe kick their ass, if that's what you have to do.

Polite reprisals and soft, low-impact punishments are great for keeping players, but bad for getting anybody to do what you want.  Kill their characters if that's what would happen ICly, and then send them an E-mail explaining why they died.  If they leave the game, don't lose any sleep over it.  Because some people are just idiots.  The best thing to do is smarten them up or send them along as soon as possible.

[Cuusardo]

I see absolutely nothing wrong with OOC punishment for repeated, blatant OOC code abuse.  The punishment should fit the crime.

[ShaLeah]

Give more warnings.  Please.  Tell us you are warning us.  Tell us what we did wrong.  Then tell us again.  Sometimes I don't know that you're really telling me that requesting for that jewelled phallus is really a -bad- idea.

Agreed. ...
In the words of Jerry, "Help me, help you." =P

Be blunt. If it was me in charge, the first thing I would do is transfer the person to some room I had to speak to problem players.

I think this is imperative. How are we supposed to know we're fucking up if we're not told?  Getting punished for evil deeds done when one doesn't know they are evil deeds kind of sucks.

I agree.

[Carnage]

Exactly. Just as well, I think a conversation with the player is a lot more effective than a simple e-mail.

Yeah i say tell us when we do something you considered fucked up.

No instead you will sit there and deduct karma and just hope we understand what we did wrong. or we have to wait until our account notes become less Ic sensitive..which could take months for me.

Email the player's account. Warn them. Explain why. I thought there was supposed to be more staff-player interactions or some bullshit. Let the play know as soon as possible.

[Sanvean]

Before jumping to conclusions, please be assured that the players responsible in both of the examples I cited have been talked to. I posted because a) I would like to understand better how people justify these actions to themselves and b) suggestions on how to prevent them -before- they happen, rather than having to engage in talking to people after the fact. Thanks.

[da mitey warrior]

Actually, I think Armageddon has done a very good job keeping this sort of behavior in check.  The way that the economy, skills and equipment are set cuts down on 90% of twinkish behavior.  Armageddon as a whole is an excellent example of game design.

People play the game that is set out for them, if we took the same players were had now and set them down in a stock diku mud the game would soon decay into a blood fest as everyone tried to get to level 50 and Thrain's big shiny axe of ultimate destruction first.  

The code needs to encorage people to play the game as it is intended.  People used to go out and kill gith by the hundred because you could get maybe 400 sids each from their equipment.  Players would go out and kill 500 gith captains and end up with hundreds of thousands of sid in the bank.  I'm not saying everyone did, but enough that it it focused the ballance of the game to gith killing.  Once gith gear was made worthless alot of that dried up and players went on to focus on hunting game, which makes more RP sense.  The general harshness of the game for new characters also makes clans more viable, since you can't easily become rich and famous on your own anymore.  It worked very well.

The solution to problem is to make the it harder to be a twink.  It doesn't have to be iron-clad, just something that curbes the worst cases.  I don't care if someone kills a bunch of npcs while I'm not logged on.  I just don't want to see the game treated like midgard.  It's not a solution to have the imms guard everyone better, it has to be a coded solution because you can't watch everything.  And sending more negative messages to trouble makers is just going to piss people off and lead to more negative feelings all around.

The super-secret item worth a pile of money and that reloads every reboot is just asking for trouble.  If even 99% of the player base is well behaved, that 1% is gonna find it sooner or later and abuse the crap out of it.  It should be made worthless, or nailed down or have some sort of "everyone attacks you if you touch it" script.

I've also long held that the rinth needs some sort of basic justic system.  Not jails and templars, but some sort of mob rule that kicks in after a while.  Even something basic like a bodycount which triggers a whole mess of elves coming after you once you kill your 100th rinther that week.

So in summery:  If players are being twinks, changes should be put in place to make twinking less profitable or to make the world more realistic.  It's just good game design, something which the staff does well.

[Sastro]

Make said players not in the clan begin to lose hit points the closer they get to said item, or stun points.  That would sure as hell stop me in my tracks.  :-)  If it's a culturally important item maybe a few stealthy guards or booby-traps may be in order.  Make em get shot by a poisoned dart so they have to hustle out of there before they collapse.

[jhunter]

Narlac is no longer staff wrote:
What happened? Someone entered the area, spammed north twice, grabbed the object, then ran out. They did this over and over ad nauseum. They also sold the item to other players. Now, what should have been done about this? The people stolen from would have chased the person who did this down and slaughtered them without question.

EvilRoeSlade wrote:I think this is the real problem. The PC would have died. Why didn't they? If you won't enforce IC consequences, then there will always be people who won't pay attention to them. Wait for them at the reboot and have the entire tribe kick their ass, if that's what you have to do.


I agree with this completely.

In other cases though, some warning about behavior...but, if it can be handled in a realistic IC way, I think that should always be done first.

Suffer the consequences of your char's actions, big and small.

I know myself, the first time an imm jumped in and showed me IC consequences to my actions it made me start to think more realistically about how I played my characters.

It was more fun to learn that way IMHO.

[Twilight]

Code Solutions:

Recognize script - A script on clan specific items that wouldn't be sold, etc.  If a clanned NPC sees anyone outside the clan with the item, they attack, immediately.

Call 911 script - If an NPC gets attacked, they send out a psionic distress message.  There is either a list of other NPCs, or a general clan call such that if there are any of those NPCs with X rooms of the attacked, they travel to the callers room, and assist the victim.  This could be especially useful in places like the Rinth.

Load VNPC script - If it is a room where there are VNPCs, combat in that room loads up a couple (or more) generic NPCs up to a limit specified in the script.  That one elf in the camp is sudden 5, beating on you!

Assess room - Probably more intensive work-wise, and more use to older players.  Tells information, like how approximately many VNPCs might be in the room.  I have come across situations where I am not sure.  Are there only those three gith, or are there lots more?

Correspondence approaches-

Use comments more to point out even grey areas.

RP approaches -

Others have mentioned these.  I would say more than this, have IC consequences.  You were hideously wounded attacking that gith camp single handed.  Suddenly the player finds that they have lower max hitpoints.  You singlehandedly demolished part of an Allanak temple.  Suddenly you find it really hard to breath, sort of like asthema, but more like the air doesn't like you, and you loose 20 mv.  Probably reserved for people who repeatedly do things.

[wizturbo]

Simple solution in my book.  Keep an eye on the rooms/NPC's/items, and if people are abusing them through some interesting challenges at them.  Maybe the tribe they stole an item from, sends its warriors out to hunt that person down and retreive it.  Or maybe the rare plant hidden in the wilds has a poisonous snake near it one day.

Basically...make twinkish players think twice about trying to abuse an interesting area.

Can always remove karma points, or remove guild options as well, as I see such behavior to be as twinkish as it gets.

[Tlaloc]

The problem with this approach is that we, inevitably, start to get complaints about how "OMFG, The IMMZ want to EAT my BRAINZ!!!!1111!!"

Sure, its would be really easy for us to lurk beside an NPC, and wait for someone to try to Twink the object away, loading up a crapload of butched out NPCs to send the player off to reconsider thier actions by staring at the mantis screen. I see some potential problems with this, and posit some questions for folks to answer:

1) Its rarely, really, that effective, imho. I don't think players learn by getting thier assess killed. They just learn that its a hard area, and maybe they shouldn't go there for the cool objects - either that, or they need to be Uber. It doesn't solve the problem that is the twinkage in genneral. Am I, as a staff member, seeing this differently? Do you, the players, think this is an effective tool? If you were to do, or steal something, and was suddenly attacked by 20 NPCs...would you realize what you did, and what you were doing wrong?

2) As I said above, inevitably, loading up NPCs where there used to be none really makes players feel persecuted. I ask the players: should we even be worried about this? Should we start blatantly killing PC's because they ran into the Gith encampment?

3) Many plots are started because PC's weren't thinking when they did something incredibly stupid, and probably not realistic in-game. However, I wonder: at what point are we rewarding bad play, with potential plotlines, RP possibilities, and more challenges for the character? Why reward someone who is acting in an OOC way, with IC things?

4) Quite frankly, I don't want to police an area, just to keep PC's from acting unrealistically there. I already have my hands full with every other Runner comming through the T'zai Byn, who seems to want to 'clear the rinth of scum'. Are there any more solutions that can be thought of, which don't require the Staff to act as baby-sitters for certain areas (thus, freeing up our time for other projects)?

Actually, I see alot of similarities between what Sanvean is posting about, and Bynners going up into the 'rinth. I have seen, literally, countless Players come up with lame (if at all) excuses for why thier PC would have any sort of reason to go up into the rinth, and start killing random things. In my personal opinion, no one in thier right mind would feel like voluntarially going up there, if they didn't have to. Basically, no commoner would want to go up there, unless they were either 1) already dirt-poor rinther (who has no -regular- job, ie: not a mercenary); 2) going up there for some underhanded, shady business dealings; or 3) on the lam from the Law.

Now, to be fair: the numbers have decreased dramatically in the past two years that I've been in charge of the T'zai Byn. So I'll ask players that have been in the T'zai Byn: what motivates you from staying out of the Labyrinth, both IC and OOC? Have methods implimented by myself, and other staff members, helped this motivation? If so, which ones in specific have been, in your opinions, most effective (or was it a combination)?

[Anarchy]

I honestly dont have a problem having a punishment for stupid actions.

BUT i'd like, the staff to at least first give a warning, and then inform them of what they have done, and why.

For example, a bynner, he spams training, and then during afternoon goes into the 'rinth, to fight the npcs, returning at dawn to train.

I would like to see first a OOC warning
"MeanAdmin sends you, "Dude, what your doing is so wrong, if i see it anymore, and boy i dont care about "ic reasons" your not going to like what i will do"

If they, stop, they stop, newbie learns a lesson. If they continue, i'd slap a no-gain flag on them, for a RL week. I'd also send them a mud email telling them why i have done it, and what is to be expected before the flag is removed, i'd have the in detail with polite wording, not just a one line "I have put a no-gain flag on your ass because your a twink"

Most often then not, 'twinkish' behavior happens because we are blind to the fact it is twinkish and just dont know what we are doing is twinkish. If you silently punish the offender, they wont learn anything, and will get frustrated, that is when the "Staff are out to get me" thinking comes into play.

So i guess my point is, as a staff member - you should first give a warning, then failing that react accordingly, even if it means killing the PC, but just make sure you inform them why in detail you did it.

[Quirk]

Seems to me, if I'm reading Sanvean right, that the question is how to stop twinking before it happens, rather than what to do about it afterward. A mudmail dropped to a player afterwards will in most cases, I imagine, buck them up, and where the behaviour continues more serious repercussions are readily available, down to and including killing off their character.

Personally I don't think it's possible to entirely eliminate twinking of the sort just mentioned. There will always be players who haven't "got it" yet - at least, I hope there always will be, because when there are no longer players like that Arm will have stopped expanding. Those who come from a more hack and slash background will have the explore-kill-loot mentality fairly well ingrained, and they will have to radically change their view of the game world before they even recognise that there's anything wrong with going into some tribal village, butchering everyone and looting the corpses. I don't think there are any changes that can be made to the game world that will magically alter that sort of view - the reactions of other players IC and OOC to what they're doing will have vastly more impact.

People are not justifying these actions to themselves on any but the most basic level. The version of RP they are used to, coming from a non-RPI mud, likely involves being in character solely when round others, and diligently levelling up when alone.  Many of them will be used to anything outside the lawful streets of their starting city being fair game. All they require is some vague notion of not being on the same side as those NPCs, and they're perfectly happy to lay into them.

Naturally, from there it's a simple step to decide that if the staff are making your life harder while you're attempting to go about normal routine, it's because they're evil and can't bear to see anyone enjoying themselves. For this reason I don't think anything done ICly by the staff (except maybe animating the victims and having them scream in pain and beg for mercy as they're being butchered, and maybe not even that) will have the desired effect.

As far as Tlaloc's comments on the Byn go, last I played there it was about one-half good to excellent RPers, and one-half newbies. I don't know how it was a couple of years ago, but these days it seems an excellent environment for helping newbies to "get it", and I wouldn't be surprised if the Bynners who stalk the Labyrinth are now a rare breed.

Quirk

[Kalden]

I don't know how you can absolutely stop twinking from happening. I don't think it's possible, like Quirk said. Armageddon has been getting a -lot- of newbies lately, and that's probably part of the problem. Most, with some notable exceptions, learn not to twink after a little while because Armageddon stresses it with its experienced players, its board, and the website(not necessarily with its gameplay).

But, ah, on Sanvean's example, I have to wonder why this person got past the guard into the camp in the first place? That's how you could have easily solved this. Put guards on the entrances of these populated places, and don't leave the items lying in plain sight, without guards. I played in one of the coded d-elf tribes(SLK), and I was surprised to hear on the board that anyone could enter the camp and not be attacked. So someone could walk in, kill me and all the NPCs, grab all our loot, and stroll right back out. I'm not sure if that changed, but that's the idea I got.

I don't know how it was a couple of years ago, but these days it seems an excellent environment for helping newbies to "get it", and I wouldn't be surprised if the Bynners who stalk the Labyrinth are now a rare breed.

I don't want to hijack the thread, so don't respond too much to this, unless you want to make another thread, but it doesn't seem that great for learning. I'm seeing a lot of Byn newbies, or those who I'd guess are newbies. They train, eat, then come back to the Barracks and log off. Rinse and repeat.

That's not what Armageddon is supposed to be about, and players actually interested in good social RP don't find too much here. I know a couple of my friends tried Armageddon through the Byn, and they no longer play. Not to mention the fact that it's not really fun listening to superiors bitch at you constantly... it also takes an experienced RPer to enjoy shoveling shit. After seeing a hapless newbie get carted off for ignoring chores, I don't know that it's that great of an environment for them to learn to enjoy the game, or even learn not to be twinkish.

[Petra]

Give more warnings. Please. Tell us you are warning us. Tell us what we did wrong. Then tell us again. Sometimes I don't know that you're really telling me that requesting for that jewelled phallus is really a -bad- idea.

I love mansa's posts.  Always so quick and to the point.

[naatok]

Am I right in understanding that Staff problems with PCs going into areas and acquiring items isn't the act itself, but rather IC motivation (or lack thereof), and how the act is carried out, and repetition of said act?

I just want to be clear on the Staff point of view on this, since I really see nothing wrong with 'adventuring', if that is your PC's personality.

As for mercenaries going into an area like the 'rinth with the reasoning that they wanna go 'kick some street punk ass'....I find the idea VERY distasteful.  First, A Bynner is a freakin' mercenary!  They learn to fight in order to MAKE MONEY.  Mercenaries are not die-hard Braveheart types.  Other than the VERY few who live for the killin', mercenaries are EXTREMELY cautious about what they get themselves into.  After all, if you die, what good is the 1000 'sid payment for the job gonna be to you?!

Second, let's say you are a hired bodyguard for J Lo.  She's in New York City on tour.  Let's say you get a day off for yourself.  Are you gonna go crawling around in the catacombs of the subway system looking to beat up on the derelicts?  Are you gonna waltz into the dangerous sections of Harlem or the Bronx or Queens or the Bowery or into Battery Park at midnight looking for 'street punks to fuck with?'  HELL NO you're not!  You're going shopping, or to that broadway show, premier nightclub or restaurant!

I really friggin' HATE the poor excuses some people come up with in order to 'justify' their desire to powergame.  If your PC is a mercenary, PLAY A FUCKING MERCENARY!  If your PC is a vile defiler bent on domination of the Known World, then play that and not some cheezy pop around the world killing all the badass PCs in leadership roles.  Jeezus!  Do you honestly think someone as intelligent and wise as a successful sorcerer is going to murder the very people s/he may need in order to secure a power base?!  NO!  Not unless it is ABSOLUTELY necessary.
And 'I, the player want some action NOW!' does NOT translate into 'ICly ABSOLUTELY necessary'.

If you wanna play a thug, play a thug, but for fuck's sake, play a REALISTIC thug who gives a shit whether s/he lives or dies.  Play your PC as if it were YOU...with YOUR life on the line.  Your PCs will still suffer and die typically, but at least they'll enrich the game world of Zalanthas by doing it rather than ruining plots and other aspects of the world.

One of my idols, Chris Rock, had a special on 'How to NOT get your ass kicked by the police'.  It was hilarious, but contained some nuggets of common sense.

I like to call my advice here, 'How to NOT get your ass kicked by the staff and responsible players'.

You ever hear someone say, 'Man, I wouldn't do that shit if I were you.'
Well, here's some of 'that shit':

Ignoring NPCs or treating them like stupid, robotic cash cows.  Ignoring VNPC populations.  I know many of you use the 'brief' command to tune out room environment descriptions.  I'm sorry, but if you're not TOTALLY familiar with the area (know it like the back of your hand), or you're not staff....you're an idiot for using 'brief'.  I've been playing Arm for 12 freakin' years and I've NEVER used brief!  Why?!  Because staff uses room descriptions to give players MUCH NEEDED information about their surroundings, so they can play realistically.  Ignoring room descriptions is 'some of that shit'.  Not only that, but you MAY actually miss something cool or important by using brief.  Using knowledge of game code to 'get over' on PCs or NPCs.  This includes things like spam-steal, spam-flee, spam-kick/bash during fights, abusing repop to make your PC fabulously wealthy or incredibly well-equipped.  Using OOC knowledge of coded guild skillsets to try and spot PCs who are ICly posing as something they are not.
Powergaming/playing...which includes, but is not limited to, spending an unrealistic amount of time working to improve PC skills.  Working on said skills with little or no other acknowledgement of the game world (stand-spar-rest, or stand-cast-rest, ad nauseum, etc.).  Unrealistic reaction to giving/receiving damage or other events, coded or non-coded, or no reaction (keep in mind that some races have different levels of endurance to pain, hunger, thirst, exhaustion, so don't expect every PC to react to such things like a human would...or should).

That's just a little sample of some of 'that shit', which pissess off staff and players who are concerned with Zalanthas being a living, breathing world for us to escape into from time to time.

[jmordetsky]

I think that this behavior is shite...but comming from someone who could possibly have been the worst player of all time and really didn't "get it" for a while....it's hard for certain people to understand what's wrong. It took me a really long time to get through my head that just because the code lets you do it, doesn't mean you should.

For instance, I used to play a thief that figured out how to kill a certain npc at a certain time in the city without getting wanted and I did it....over, and over, and over again. I eventually got a talking to about it, but I didn't get it. I was like, "What....I'm RPing. This is my successful ambush spot". I just didn't get that in a real world, people would start talking, avoiding the area etc.

I think, one, the staff should try to understand the characters intent, because the char just might not understand why it's unrealistic to constantly loot the same area.  A stern warning via mail might be helpful.

Two, have the NPCs guarding or living in said areas, rotate in strength. So one day they are baby newbs...the next day they are super warriors.

From this point of view the character is going to raid the village and eventually, the village is going to place some hard core NPC guards there because they keep getting raided.

This also allows PC that RP the raid well, with planning to have a chance at actually succeeding. I think it's important to keep in mind that the "act of" raiding is not "bad" if it is line with the PCs character and isn't abused, over and over and over again.

Maybe the only way to stop code abuse is through more code....or some kind of education.  

The only thing that would have stopped me from abuse in the past was to have a talking to, because I was new.  I really didn't get one ever, until after above mention. My punishment was always IC which made me think these were just ramification to my actions.

[Anonymous]

The problem with this approach is that we, inevitably, start to get complaints about how "OMFG, The IMMZ want to EAT my BRAINZ!!!!1111!!"

I was going to use that on my first post here actually.

And of course you will get such complaints, probly always will, I always wonder though, if they do complain, just post what they did here (name changed of course) , the few times things like that have been posted here, it has always seemed to me at least that the problem in game lessens a lot.

Also, as I said in my first post, If an item would be protected, then make it protected (I still love guardians, besides, they are fun to make).

Tlaloc wrote:

I don't think players learn by getting thier assess killed. They just learn that its a hard area, and maybe they shouldn't go there for the cool objects - either that, or they need to be Uber. It doesn't solve the problem that is the twinkage in genneral

Yes, it does help Tlaloc, I've seen it over and over, hell, I'm one of them.

When I first came back to arm, enough time had passed to basicly make me a newbie. Really not knowing where to start (having not spent a lot of time on new docs) I proceeded to use methods that used to work or worked elsewhere....This quickly brought me that mantis head, two chars, and let me know this was not working, so spent more time on the docs and made a new char, this one joined the byn, later Tor, Some people might even remember my Tor dwarf LT, he lived for a long time, both IC and playtime, not bad for a combat class 3rd char.

Point is, if somebody really wants to play, losing a few chars will make them sit back and think and read, eventually things will sink in, or they will have 200 dead chars in a year or quit. Account feedback is nice too.

General twinkiness is something that will always be around, specialy as long as we have new players, and lets hope we continue to have new players, it is something that the players and staff must always work on and guard against.

[X-D]

Eeek, I was logged in when I started that post.

The above post was authered by me.

[jmordetsky]

I'm thinking the abuser's were most likely new players yea? If not the only thing that will fix it is a stern talking to. For new players... I was thinking, what might be helpful here is to list some really rediculous abuses and what was going through my head at the time, and what I understand now.


1) Finding a place to kill the same npc over and over and over without getting crime-flagged.

Here I just really thought that my 'theif' char had found a great place to mug people. Rotating the fighting stats of the npc I was mugging would have fixed that.

2) My first day playing, I went into the top of the traders, found a guy sleeping and killed him.

I was eventually found and killed for it. But I thought this was IC....I needed a talking to here. I didn't really get the idea of a vnpc and how my actions would have been construed as chaotic.

3) There was a certain room I could get in that was filled with vnpcs and i used to go there, emote sneaking around and stealing all the fruit there.

I thought that because I emoted sneaking, that I had RPed the theft. Here I either needed a talking to, or some description in the room that said certain people were watchin me. Something coded  to stop me from stealing might have been good as well, I honestly at the time, thought I was IC and my actions were justified.      

4) I used to go, fight until I had like 3 hp. Sleep it off, and then go finish killing my prey.

I chalk this up to not understanding that just because the code "healed" me didn't mean that I was completely fine after being thrashed within an inch of my life. I still don't get this...but I make a point never to let myself go below 3/4 without some RPing an injury.


I think I can chalk all of this stuff up to just being new, and slow to understanding what RP meant. I used to think it was just cool that on this mud everyone pretended to be someone instead of using ooc shouts and tells.

Hope my little trip down poor RP memory lane helps.

[John]

I think the problem with this entire thread is, your getting good players who don't abuse the code (I hope) to respond to these concerns, ideas and questions. This might sound like a strange idea, but get together a list of "problem" players and basically e-mail them all these questions, saying you want to work with the players. Sure some will get pissed, but hopefully others will work with you.

If you were to do, or steal something, and was suddenly attacked by 20 NPCs...would you realize what you did, and what you were doing wrong?

Nope. I'd most likely assume it was a function of the code and think it's pretty cool the Imms set it up

However once I did an unrealistic thing. My character had motive, but I forgot how the NPCs would react. So an Imm inhabited an NPC and taught me an IC lesson and an OOC one I wouldn't forget. Problem with it though, was I didn't know if the Imm was shitty with me, or just wanted to teach me a lesson and saw the matter as dealt with and forgotten.

I also wasn't killed in that instance, and if I had of been would definitely have felt the Imm was extremely pissed with me. It is possible to teach people lessons without killing, but (IMO) it only works with those who essentially want to be good roleplayers. Those who look for bugs to abuse (IMO) simply won't care.

should we even be worried about this?

Definitely! On the whole, you should be very worried. With individuals, well. Some people just don't get it and see every bad thing as the Imms eating their brains (I've spoken with people like this before). So with individuals, then I'd say no. But when it happens to lots of individuals, they're going to eventually lead to an anti-Imm feeling through the playerbase. And it can catch if there are enough carriers

Should we start blatantly killing PC's because they ran into the Gith encampment?

One person who I've talked too who have been (IMO) bad RPers (he'd tell me about what he would do and I just shook my head at it) would complain because of:
* The lack of RP from Imms (nothing like getting killed by spam-combat by an Imm-loaded NPC).
* The Imms never explained what they did was wrong.

He eventually got to the stage where he was proud when the Imms didn't kill him with buffed up gith (I don't know if they were really Imm loaded, he said they were) and (IMO) probably started doing things JUST to defy and "shit" the Imms.

at what point are we rewarding bad play, with potential plotlines, RP possibilities, and more challenges for the character? Why reward someone who is acting in an OOC way, with IC things?

3 reasons
* It will involve other players
* He'll see what CAN happen more often if he roleplayers better
* He is most likely to not develop a grudge against the Imms and start doing less code abuse things.

I think some of the code abuse is a general "fuck you" to the Imms.

So I'll ask players that have been in the T'zai Byn: what motivates you from staying out of the Labyrinth, both IC and OOC?

I had a newbie char that joined the Byn, and she was literally scared out of her wits to go to the 'rinth cause of the feeling, someone would constantly be watching her. Beef this up. For the Byn's themselves, would the militia stop Bynners at the gates? If so, put in some echos to that effect. This can also be used in other situations.

Basically, some people's opinion is "if a PC isn't around, the Imms have to be eating my brainz for consequences to arise" and I heard this complaint more then I can count from just 1 player. I don't know how to combat that feeling though.

I would like to see first a OOC warning
"MeanAdmin sends you, "Dude, what your doing is so wrong, if i see it anymore, and boy i dont care about "ic reasons" your not going to like what i will do"

NO! IMO nothing can contribute to "Immz eating my brainz" syndrome then this. While I only know one patent abuse player, he would of leaped on that as the Imms are shitheads who don't want to let anyone who "doesn't suck their balls" develop their characters. IMO, dealing with a player and using the words "i don't care" should NEVER happen. Take the player aside, yes. Say "I don't give a shit" definitely not.

As for Naatok's... informative post. Yeah, I agree with what he said. But the problem is people NOT knowing how to "play a good thug." How can they learn? Well through logs of good RP, sure. But they can also learn through logs of BAD RP, especially if there is an explanation, explaining why it was bad RP. I ignored the VNPC and NPC world once, and was promptly handed my ass to me on a plate. I personally would be willing to submit this log if the Imms were willing to accept logs of bad RP to help teach newbies

Also, make a faq of the top bad things people (newbies and non newbies) do and explain why it's bad. Might help. Docs not only help newbies. They help oldies who just don't get it. That seems to a be a misconception here (unless your still a newbie after 1 year).

Sorry for this long winded post. I also have nothing against the Imms

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm rather assinine, so I've been told, but my solution involves very little public relations. Once, back in the day, I was unfamiliar with the strict RP of this game, and I did some twinkish things. Krrx had a nice convo with me. In this convo, he did not allow me room to make real excuses, nor did he completely ignore me. He lowered one of my skills, banned me for a week or so, and made sure that I understood why. And I understood. Believe me, I understood.

If I were Immortal, I would make sure the player knew why I was upset, and then I would let them go. I'd probably figure out some way that my clan or tribe or whatever had retrieved their item. If it happened again, the PC would not live to see the sun again.

Secondly, perhaps a disertation concerning such things should be added to the website. Something that sounds unfair is what I would write, because players are going to read it and think, "Well shit, if the Immortals are going to cheat about it, what the fuck is the use?"

I don't really care if the player in question is annoyed. They should be. I sure the fuck am. It's a role-play intensive MUD. We don't have room for Superman or Flash...you did not run past all those gith or into the crowded crime-boss' house without harm coming to you.

Talk clearly, and then, when it happens again, beat the fucking hell out of them...

[wizturbo]

Naatok, awesome post.

What he said.

[jmordetsky]

Maybe whats really needed is a:

***Things you should not do even though the code allows you list.***

As an example, I played for almost a year before someone told me I shouldn't let my hit points fall bellow a certain level without acting out some sort of injury.

It wasn't until a player RPed a scene with me and was staggered by my quick recovery that I was like, "oh..." and posted to the board. Where my suspicions were confirmed.

I'm not saying that every offender is innocent, but I think a good deal are just new players that need some guidance.

[Lerl]

Is there any way staff can avoid this other than not putting things into the game in the first place? What signals can we provide as builders that an area is not intended as the equivalent of the Smurf Village?

Such "signals"/"intentions" are very OOC and therefore by reflex ignored by good roleplayers.  Don't put things into the game that you don't want among the players.   Making the npc/item virtual is another solution.

Rick