How to Discourage Staff, in One Easy Step

[Twilight]

Code Solutions:

Recognize script - A script on clan specific items that wouldn't be sold, etc.  If a clanned NPC sees anyone outside the clan with the item, they attack, immediately.

Call 911 script - If an NPC gets attacked, they send out a psionic distress message.  There is either a list of other NPCs, or a general clan call such that if there are any of those NPCs with X rooms of the attacked, they travel to the callers room, and assist the victim.  This could be especially useful in places like the Rinth.

Load VNPC script - If it is a room where there are VNPCs, combat in that room loads up a couple (or more) generic NPCs up to a limit specified in the script.  That one elf in the camp is sudden 5, beating on you!

Assess room - Probably more intensive work-wise, and more use to older players.  Tells information, like how approximately many VNPCs might be in the room.  I have come across situations where I am not sure.  Are there only those three gith, or are there lots more?

Correspondence approaches-

Use comments more to point out even grey areas.

RP approaches -

Others have mentioned these.  I would say more than this, have IC consequences.  You were hideously wounded attacking that gith camp single handed.  Suddenly the player finds that they have lower max hitpoints.  You singlehandedly demolished part of an Allanak temple.  Suddenly you find it really hard to breath, sort of like asthema, but more like the air doesn't like you, and you loose 20 mv.  Probably reserved for people who repeatedly do things.

[wizturbo]

Simple solution in my book.  Keep an eye on the rooms/NPC's/items, and if people are abusing them through some interesting challenges at them.  Maybe the tribe they stole an item from, sends its warriors out to hunt that person down and retreive it.  Or maybe the rare plant hidden in the wilds has a poisonous snake near it one day.

Basically...make twinkish players think twice about trying to abuse an interesting area.

Can always remove karma points, or remove guild options as well, as I see such behavior to be as twinkish as it gets.

[Tlaloc]

The problem with this approach is that we, inevitably, start to get complaints about how "OMFG, The IMMZ want to EAT my BRAINZ!!!!1111!!"

Sure, its would be really easy for us to lurk beside an NPC, and wait for someone to try to Twink the object away, loading up a crapload of butched out NPCs to send the player off to reconsider thier actions by staring at the mantis screen. I see some potential problems with this, and posit some questions for folks to answer:

1) Its rarely, really, that effective, imho. I don't think players learn by getting thier assess killed. They just learn that its a hard area, and maybe they shouldn't go there for the cool objects - either that, or they need to be Uber. It doesn't solve the problem that is the twinkage in genneral. Am I, as a staff member, seeing this differently? Do you, the players, think this is an effective tool? If you were to do, or steal something, and was suddenly attacked by 20 NPCs...would you realize what you did, and what you were doing wrong?

2) As I said above, inevitably, loading up NPCs where there used to be none really makes players feel persecuted. I ask the players: should we even be worried about this? Should we start blatantly killing PC's because they ran into the Gith encampment?

3) Many plots are started because PC's weren't thinking when they did something incredibly stupid, and probably not realistic in-game. However, I wonder: at what point are we rewarding bad play, with potential plotlines, RP possibilities, and more challenges for the character? Why reward someone who is acting in an OOC way, with IC things?

4) Quite frankly, I don't want to police an area, just to keep PC's from acting unrealistically there. I already have my hands full with every other Runner comming through the T'zai Byn, who seems to want to 'clear the rinth of scum'. Are there any more solutions that can be thought of, which don't require the Staff to act as baby-sitters for certain areas (thus, freeing up our time for other projects)?

Actually, I see alot of similarities between what Sanvean is posting about, and Bynners going up into the 'rinth. I have seen, literally, countless Players come up with lame (if at all) excuses for why thier PC would have any sort of reason to go up into the rinth, and start killing random things. In my personal opinion, no one in thier right mind would feel like voluntarially going up there, if they didn't have to. Basically, no commoner would want to go up there, unless they were either 1) already dirt-poor rinther (who has no -regular- job, ie: not a mercenary); 2) going up there for some underhanded, shady business dealings; or 3) on the lam from the Law.

Now, to be fair: the numbers have decreased dramatically in the past two years that I've been in charge of the T'zai Byn. So I'll ask players that have been in the T'zai Byn: what motivates you from staying out of the Labyrinth, both IC and OOC? Have methods implimented by myself, and other staff members, helped this motivation? If so, which ones in specific have been, in your opinions, most effective (or was it a combination)?

[Anarchy]

I honestly dont have a problem having a punishment for stupid actions.

BUT i'd like, the staff to at least first give a warning, and then inform them of what they have done, and why.

For example, a bynner, he spams training, and then during afternoon goes into the 'rinth, to fight the npcs, returning at dawn to train.

I would like to see first a OOC warning
"MeanAdmin sends you, "Dude, what your doing is so wrong, if i see it anymore, and boy i dont care about "ic reasons" your not going to like what i will do"

If they, stop, they stop, newbie learns a lesson. If they continue, i'd slap a no-gain flag on them, for a RL week. I'd also send them a mud email telling them why i have done it, and what is to be expected before the flag is removed, i'd have the in detail with polite wording, not just a one line "I have put a no-gain flag on your ass because your a twink"

Most often then not, 'twinkish' behavior happens because we are blind to the fact it is twinkish and just dont know what we are doing is twinkish. If you silently punish the offender, they wont learn anything, and will get frustrated, that is when the "Staff are out to get me" thinking comes into play.

So i guess my point is, as a staff member - you should first give a warning, then failing that react accordingly, even if it means killing the PC, but just make sure you inform them why in detail you did it.

[Quirk]

Seems to me, if I'm reading Sanvean right, that the question is how to stop twinking before it happens, rather than what to do about it afterward. A mudmail dropped to a player afterwards will in most cases, I imagine, buck them up, and where the behaviour continues more serious repercussions are readily available, down to and including killing off their character.

Personally I don't think it's possible to entirely eliminate twinking of the sort just mentioned. There will always be players who haven't "got it" yet - at least, I hope there always will be, because when there are no longer players like that Arm will have stopped expanding. Those who come from a more hack and slash background will have the explore-kill-loot mentality fairly well ingrained, and they will have to radically change their view of the game world before they even recognise that there's anything wrong with going into some tribal village, butchering everyone and looting the corpses. I don't think there are any changes that can be made to the game world that will magically alter that sort of view - the reactions of other players IC and OOC to what they're doing will have vastly more impact.

People are not justifying these actions to themselves on any but the most basic level. The version of RP they are used to, coming from a non-RPI mud, likely involves being in character solely when round others, and diligently levelling up when alone.  Many of them will be used to anything outside the lawful streets of their starting city being fair game. All they require is some vague notion of not being on the same side as those NPCs, and they're perfectly happy to lay into them.

Naturally, from there it's a simple step to decide that if the staff are making your life harder while you're attempting to go about normal routine, it's because they're evil and can't bear to see anyone enjoying themselves. For this reason I don't think anything done ICly by the staff (except maybe animating the victims and having them scream in pain and beg for mercy as they're being butchered, and maybe not even that) will have the desired effect.

As far as Tlaloc's comments on the Byn go, last I played there it was about one-half good to excellent RPers, and one-half newbies. I don't know how it was a couple of years ago, but these days it seems an excellent environment for helping newbies to "get it", and I wouldn't be surprised if the Bynners who stalk the Labyrinth are now a rare breed.

Quirk

[Kalden]

I don't know how you can absolutely stop twinking from happening. I don't think it's possible, like Quirk said. Armageddon has been getting a -lot- of newbies lately, and that's probably part of the problem. Most, with some notable exceptions, learn not to twink after a little while because Armageddon stresses it with its experienced players, its board, and the website(not necessarily with its gameplay).

But, ah, on Sanvean's example, I have to wonder why this person got past the guard into the camp in the first place? That's how you could have easily solved this. Put guards on the entrances of these populated places, and don't leave the items lying in plain sight, without guards. I played in one of the coded d-elf tribes(SLK), and I was surprised to hear on the board that anyone could enter the camp and not be attacked. So someone could walk in, kill me and all the NPCs, grab all our loot, and stroll right back out. I'm not sure if that changed, but that's the idea I got.

I don't know how it was a couple of years ago, but these days it seems an excellent environment for helping newbies to "get it", and I wouldn't be surprised if the Bynners who stalk the Labyrinth are now a rare breed.

I don't want to hijack the thread, so don't respond too much to this, unless you want to make another thread, but it doesn't seem that great for learning. I'm seeing a lot of Byn newbies, or those who I'd guess are newbies. They train, eat, then come back to the Barracks and log off. Rinse and repeat.

That's not what Armageddon is supposed to be about, and players actually interested in good social RP don't find too much here. I know a couple of my friends tried Armageddon through the Byn, and they no longer play. Not to mention the fact that it's not really fun listening to superiors bitch at you constantly... it also takes an experienced RPer to enjoy shoveling shit. After seeing a hapless newbie get carted off for ignoring chores, I don't know that it's that great of an environment for them to learn to enjoy the game, or even learn not to be twinkish.

[Petra]

Give more warnings. Please. Tell us you are warning us. Tell us what we did wrong. Then tell us again. Sometimes I don't know that you're really telling me that requesting for that jewelled phallus is really a -bad- idea.

I love mansa's posts.  Always so quick and to the point.

[naatok]

Am I right in understanding that Staff problems with PCs going into areas and acquiring items isn't the act itself, but rather IC motivation (or lack thereof), and how the act is carried out, and repetition of said act?

I just want to be clear on the Staff point of view on this, since I really see nothing wrong with 'adventuring', if that is your PC's personality.

As for mercenaries going into an area like the 'rinth with the reasoning that they wanna go 'kick some street punk ass'....I find the idea VERY distasteful.  First, A Bynner is a freakin' mercenary!  They learn to fight in order to MAKE MONEY.  Mercenaries are not die-hard Braveheart types.  Other than the VERY few who live for the killin', mercenaries are EXTREMELY cautious about what they get themselves into.  After all, if you die, what good is the 1000 'sid payment for the job gonna be to you?!

Second, let's say you are a hired bodyguard for J Lo.  She's in New York City on tour.  Let's say you get a day off for yourself.  Are you gonna go crawling around in the catacombs of the subway system looking to beat up on the derelicts?  Are you gonna waltz into the dangerous sections of Harlem or the Bronx or Queens or the Bowery or into Battery Park at midnight looking for 'street punks to fuck with?'  HELL NO you're not!  You're going shopping, or to that broadway show, premier nightclub or restaurant!

I really friggin' HATE the poor excuses some people come up with in order to 'justify' their desire to powergame.  If your PC is a mercenary, PLAY A FUCKING MERCENARY!  If your PC is a vile defiler bent on domination of the Known World, then play that and not some cheezy pop around the world killing all the badass PCs in leadership roles.  Jeezus!  Do you honestly think someone as intelligent and wise as a successful sorcerer is going to murder the very people s/he may need in order to secure a power base?!  NO!  Not unless it is ABSOLUTELY necessary.
And 'I, the player want some action NOW!' does NOT translate into 'ICly ABSOLUTELY necessary'.

If you wanna play a thug, play a thug, but for fuck's sake, play a REALISTIC thug who gives a shit whether s/he lives or dies.  Play your PC as if it were YOU...with YOUR life on the line.  Your PCs will still suffer and die typically, but at least they'll enrich the game world of Zalanthas by doing it rather than ruining plots and other aspects of the world.

One of my idols, Chris Rock, had a special on 'How to NOT get your ass kicked by the police'.  It was hilarious, but contained some nuggets of common sense.

I like to call my advice here, 'How to NOT get your ass kicked by the staff and responsible players'.

You ever hear someone say, 'Man, I wouldn't do that shit if I were you.'
Well, here's some of 'that shit':

Ignoring NPCs or treating them like stupid, robotic cash cows.  Ignoring VNPC populations.  I know many of you use the 'brief' command to tune out room environment descriptions.  I'm sorry, but if you're not TOTALLY familiar with the area (know it like the back of your hand), or you're not staff....you're an idiot for using 'brief'.  I've been playing Arm for 12 freakin' years and I've NEVER used brief!  Why?!  Because staff uses room descriptions to give players MUCH NEEDED information about their surroundings, so they can play realistically.  Ignoring room descriptions is 'some of that shit'.  Not only that, but you MAY actually miss something cool or important by using brief.  Using knowledge of game code to 'get over' on PCs or NPCs.  This includes things like spam-steal, spam-flee, spam-kick/bash during fights, abusing repop to make your PC fabulously wealthy or incredibly well-equipped.  Using OOC knowledge of coded guild skillsets to try and spot PCs who are ICly posing as something they are not.
Powergaming/playing...which includes, but is not limited to, spending an unrealistic amount of time working to improve PC skills.  Working on said skills with little or no other acknowledgement of the game world (stand-spar-rest, or stand-cast-rest, ad nauseum, etc.).  Unrealistic reaction to giving/receiving damage or other events, coded or non-coded, or no reaction (keep in mind that some races have different levels of endurance to pain, hunger, thirst, exhaustion, so don't expect every PC to react to such things like a human would...or should).

That's just a little sample of some of 'that shit', which pissess off staff and players who are concerned with Zalanthas being a living, breathing world for us to escape into from time to time.

[jmordetsky]

I think that this behavior is shite...but comming from someone who could possibly have been the worst player of all time and really didn't "get it" for a while....it's hard for certain people to understand what's wrong. It took me a really long time to get through my head that just because the code lets you do it, doesn't mean you should.

For instance, I used to play a thief that figured out how to kill a certain npc at a certain time in the city without getting wanted and I did it....over, and over, and over again. I eventually got a talking to about it, but I didn't get it. I was like, "What....I'm RPing. This is my successful ambush spot". I just didn't get that in a real world, people would start talking, avoiding the area etc.

I think, one, the staff should try to understand the characters intent, because the char just might not understand why it's unrealistic to constantly loot the same area.  A stern warning via mail might be helpful.

Two, have the NPCs guarding or living in said areas, rotate in strength. So one day they are baby newbs...the next day they are super warriors.

From this point of view the character is going to raid the village and eventually, the village is going to place some hard core NPC guards there because they keep getting raided.

This also allows PC that RP the raid well, with planning to have a chance at actually succeeding. I think it's important to keep in mind that the "act of" raiding is not "bad" if it is line with the PCs character and isn't abused, over and over and over again.

Maybe the only way to stop code abuse is through more code....or some kind of education.  

The only thing that would have stopped me from abuse in the past was to have a talking to, because I was new.  I really didn't get one ever, until after above mention. My punishment was always IC which made me think these were just ramification to my actions.

[Anonymous]

The problem with this approach is that we, inevitably, start to get complaints about how "OMFG, The IMMZ want to EAT my BRAINZ!!!!1111!!"

I was going to use that on my first post here actually.

And of course you will get such complaints, probly always will, I always wonder though, if they do complain, just post what they did here (name changed of course) , the few times things like that have been posted here, it has always seemed to me at least that the problem in game lessens a lot.

Also, as I said in my first post, If an item would be protected, then make it protected (I still love guardians, besides, they are fun to make).

Tlaloc wrote:

I don't think players learn by getting thier assess killed. They just learn that its a hard area, and maybe they shouldn't go there for the cool objects - either that, or they need to be Uber. It doesn't solve the problem that is the twinkage in genneral

Yes, it does help Tlaloc, I've seen it over and over, hell, I'm one of them.

When I first came back to arm, enough time had passed to basicly make me a newbie. Really not knowing where to start (having not spent a lot of time on new docs) I proceeded to use methods that used to work or worked elsewhere....This quickly brought me that mantis head, two chars, and let me know this was not working, so spent more time on the docs and made a new char, this one joined the byn, later Tor, Some people might even remember my Tor dwarf LT, he lived for a long time, both IC and playtime, not bad for a combat class 3rd char.

Point is, if somebody really wants to play, losing a few chars will make them sit back and think and read, eventually things will sink in, or they will have 200 dead chars in a year or quit. Account feedback is nice too.

General twinkiness is something that will always be around, specialy as long as we have new players, and lets hope we continue to have new players, it is something that the players and staff must always work on and guard against.

[X-D]

Eeek, I was logged in when I started that post.

The above post was authered by me.

[jmordetsky]

I'm thinking the abuser's were most likely new players yea? If not the only thing that will fix it is a stern talking to. For new players... I was thinking, what might be helpful here is to list some really rediculous abuses and what was going through my head at the time, and what I understand now.


1) Finding a place to kill the same npc over and over and over without getting crime-flagged.

Here I just really thought that my 'theif' char had found a great place to mug people. Rotating the fighting stats of the npc I was mugging would have fixed that.

2) My first day playing, I went into the top of the traders, found a guy sleeping and killed him.

I was eventually found and killed for it. But I thought this was IC....I needed a talking to here. I didn't really get the idea of a vnpc and how my actions would have been construed as chaotic.

3) There was a certain room I could get in that was filled with vnpcs and i used to go there, emote sneaking around and stealing all the fruit there.

I thought that because I emoted sneaking, that I had RPed the theft. Here I either needed a talking to, or some description in the room that said certain people were watchin me. Something coded  to stop me from stealing might have been good as well, I honestly at the time, thought I was IC and my actions were justified.      

4) I used to go, fight until I had like 3 hp. Sleep it off, and then go finish killing my prey.

I chalk this up to not understanding that just because the code "healed" me didn't mean that I was completely fine after being thrashed within an inch of my life. I still don't get this...but I make a point never to let myself go below 3/4 without some RPing an injury.


I think I can chalk all of this stuff up to just being new, and slow to understanding what RP meant. I used to think it was just cool that on this mud everyone pretended to be someone instead of using ooc shouts and tells.

Hope my little trip down poor RP memory lane helps.

[John]

I think the problem with this entire thread is, your getting good players who don't abuse the code (I hope) to respond to these concerns, ideas and questions. This might sound like a strange idea, but get together a list of "problem" players and basically e-mail them all these questions, saying you want to work with the players. Sure some will get pissed, but hopefully others will work with you.

If you were to do, or steal something, and was suddenly attacked by 20 NPCs...would you realize what you did, and what you were doing wrong?

Nope. I'd most likely assume it was a function of the code and think it's pretty cool the Imms set it up

However once I did an unrealistic thing. My character had motive, but I forgot how the NPCs would react. So an Imm inhabited an NPC and taught me an IC lesson and an OOC one I wouldn't forget. Problem with it though, was I didn't know if the Imm was shitty with me, or just wanted to teach me a lesson and saw the matter as dealt with and forgotten.

I also wasn't killed in that instance, and if I had of been would definitely have felt the Imm was extremely pissed with me. It is possible to teach people lessons without killing, but (IMO) it only works with those who essentially want to be good roleplayers. Those who look for bugs to abuse (IMO) simply won't care.

should we even be worried about this?

Definitely! On the whole, you should be very worried. With individuals, well. Some people just don't get it and see every bad thing as the Imms eating their brains (I've spoken with people like this before). So with individuals, then I'd say no. But when it happens to lots of individuals, they're going to eventually lead to an anti-Imm feeling through the playerbase. And it can catch if there are enough carriers

Should we start blatantly killing PC's because they ran into the Gith encampment?

One person who I've talked too who have been (IMO) bad RPers (he'd tell me about what he would do and I just shook my head at it) would complain because of:
* The lack of RP from Imms (nothing like getting killed by spam-combat by an Imm-loaded NPC).
* The Imms never explained what they did was wrong.

He eventually got to the stage where he was proud when the Imms didn't kill him with buffed up gith (I don't know if they were really Imm loaded, he said they were) and (IMO) probably started doing things JUST to defy and "shit" the Imms.

at what point are we rewarding bad play, with potential plotlines, RP possibilities, and more challenges for the character? Why reward someone who is acting in an OOC way, with IC things?

3 reasons
* It will involve other players
* He'll see what CAN happen more often if he roleplayers better
* He is most likely to not develop a grudge against the Imms and start doing less code abuse things.

I think some of the code abuse is a general "fuck you" to the Imms.

So I'll ask players that have been in the T'zai Byn: what motivates you from staying out of the Labyrinth, both IC and OOC?

I had a newbie char that joined the Byn, and she was literally scared out of her wits to go to the 'rinth cause of the feeling, someone would constantly be watching her. Beef this up. For the Byn's themselves, would the militia stop Bynners at the gates? If so, put in some echos to that effect. This can also be used in other situations.

Basically, some people's opinion is "if a PC isn't around, the Imms have to be eating my brainz for consequences to arise" and I heard this complaint more then I can count from just 1 player. I don't know how to combat that feeling though.

I would like to see first a OOC warning
"MeanAdmin sends you, "Dude, what your doing is so wrong, if i see it anymore, and boy i dont care about "ic reasons" your not going to like what i will do"

NO! IMO nothing can contribute to "Immz eating my brainz" syndrome then this. While I only know one patent abuse player, he would of leaped on that as the Imms are shitheads who don't want to let anyone who "doesn't suck their balls" develop their characters. IMO, dealing with a player and using the words "i don't care" should NEVER happen. Take the player aside, yes. Say "I don't give a shit" definitely not.

As for Naatok's... informative post. Yeah, I agree with what he said. But the problem is people NOT knowing how to "play a good thug." How can they learn? Well through logs of good RP, sure. But they can also learn through logs of BAD RP, especially if there is an explanation, explaining why it was bad RP. I ignored the VNPC and NPC world once, and was promptly handed my ass to me on a plate. I personally would be willing to submit this log if the Imms were willing to accept logs of bad RP to help teach newbies

Also, make a faq of the top bad things people (newbies and non newbies) do and explain why it's bad. Might help. Docs not only help newbies. They help oldies who just don't get it. That seems to a be a misconception here (unless your still a newbie after 1 year).

Sorry for this long winded post. I also have nothing against the Imms

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm rather assinine, so I've been told, but my solution involves very little public relations. Once, back in the day, I was unfamiliar with the strict RP of this game, and I did some twinkish things. Krrx had a nice convo with me. In this convo, he did not allow me room to make real excuses, nor did he completely ignore me. He lowered one of my skills, banned me for a week or so, and made sure that I understood why. And I understood. Believe me, I understood.

If I were Immortal, I would make sure the player knew why I was upset, and then I would let them go. I'd probably figure out some way that my clan or tribe or whatever had retrieved their item. If it happened again, the PC would not live to see the sun again.

Secondly, perhaps a disertation concerning such things should be added to the website. Something that sounds unfair is what I would write, because players are going to read it and think, "Well shit, if the Immortals are going to cheat about it, what the fuck is the use?"

I don't really care if the player in question is annoyed. They should be. I sure the fuck am. It's a role-play intensive MUD. We don't have room for Superman or Flash...you did not run past all those gith or into the crowded crime-boss' house without harm coming to you.

Talk clearly, and then, when it happens again, beat the fucking hell out of them...

[wizturbo]

Naatok, awesome post.

What he said.

[jmordetsky]

Maybe whats really needed is a:

***Things you should not do even though the code allows you list.***

As an example, I played for almost a year before someone told me I shouldn't let my hit points fall bellow a certain level without acting out some sort of injury.

It wasn't until a player RPed a scene with me and was staggered by my quick recovery that I was like, "oh..." and posted to the board. Where my suspicions were confirmed.

I'm not saying that every offender is innocent, but I think a good deal are just new players that need some guidance.

[Lerl]

Is there any way staff can avoid this other than not putting things into the game in the first place? What signals can we provide as builders that an area is not intended as the equivalent of the Smurf Village?

Such "signals"/"intentions" are very OOC and therefore by reflex ignored by good roleplayers.  Don't put things into the game that you don't want among the players.   Making the npc/item virtual is another solution.

Rick