Wild Animals and the bash command

[jmordetsky]

I think more large animals should open combat with the bash command. Let me explain why...

Last night I had this dream that I was walking around amongst some giant piles of cut down trees near some railroad tracks. I have no idea why.

Any way, out from behind a lumber pile comes this bear....a hungry bear...So, me, being creature of logic and rational...I scream like a 4 year old and take off....but the bear is fast and dives at me knocking me the ground.

He then proceeds to start knawing on me. But then all of a sudden, I'm my current arm char and I draw my sid dagger and stick him a few times and scramble away....but I digress...

The point being...large animals are almost certainly going to try to chase you down, and knock you over and then eat you. So...I think bigger hunting creatures should typically sneak in from a given direction and then bash you. As opposed to sneak in from a given direction and then bite you.

The other day I was being chased by some gortok and they were hitting at me, but I'd flee and run away. I think they should have bashed me, knocked me over and then started biting at me. Then I couldn't run

Also, should you be able to just stand up? Shouldn't there be some sort of saving throw that allows and aninal to try to keep you on the ground? Sort of like subdue?


Thoughts?

[Quirk]

Not ideal, as "bash" is a somewhat crude way of representing an aspect of combat. If I'm fighting a bear with a spear, if it attempts to charge me down it's likely to receive a gory hole in its chest. Code-wise, the bear's bigger and stronger than I am, and thus very likely to knock me down, whether I have that spear or not; realism-wise, it's got to defeat my weapon before it even gets in range to attempt it. Having most animals charge in and insta-bash strikes me as a bad idea, I'd much rather have animals capable of doing so endure a couple of rounds of combat before they'd have an opening to try their bash.

Quirk

[grog]

So it's not enough that a Mek can bring you down to 2 hp with a single strike, you want him to be able to knock you down first?

[mansa]

Some already do.

[UnderSeven]

I'd like to add that I personally think the animal bash is a little buggy as is.  Last I checked they could do it without delay based purely on a randomization.  Therefore you could in theory be bashed repeatedly in a row.  That would be like an animal with unlimited momentum.  Personally before we see other animals with the same ability, i'd like to see the ones who already have it fixed a bit.

[Tamarin]

I lost a fairly long-lived character because a beetle, a fairly easy thing to kill if you have some training, knocked me down with its first attack.  Then a tarantula walked in.  4 hits.  Mantis head.

[Lazloth]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2646

[Forest Junkie]

I'd like to add that I personally think the animal bash is a little buggy as is.  Last I checked they could do it without delay based purely on a randomization.  Therefore you could in theory be bashed repeatedly in a row.  That would be like an animal with unlimited momentum.

AFAIK, this is true. In a previous battle with a carru, I was bashed to the ground, then bashed again before I could even -stand-.

[jmordetsky]

IS that to say a carru can't ram you....then as you fall down, lower it's head and ram hit you again?

Ever see a bull fighter get gored?

[UnderSeven]

Carru gore, that ISE their attack.  The ram however is a bash where they litterally rear back and charge you, knowing you over, into the next room and I think even taking stun away.  Hitting you while you're down would make perfect sense, manageing to instantly have the momentum to toss you around again right after doing it doesn't.  All I ask for is delay after they charge before they can do it again,  That's really not much to ask.

[Forest Junkie]

IS that to say a carru can't ram you....then as you fall down, lower it's head and ram hit you again?

Ever see a bull fighter get gored?

Carru are not bulls, and bulls are not carru. Let's stick to actual game concepts please.

Let me further explain the situation. After the carru opened combat with bash, my pc was fallen, lying upon the ground, rolling over on his ass. The carru then charges me into another square. How? How can it do this when I'm on the ground, eh? These seemingly spammed commands end in death many times, due to lag out. I don't care if the code for carru in combat is changed though, as I'll simply work around it.

[X-D]

Heh, yes, lost chars to insta-uber bash before, specialy fun when a spider can bash ya 4 times in a row in less time then a pc can bash twice.


Some of the npc no-lag commands are funny though, I do wonder how the halfling you are fighting finds time to eat a whole carru corpse while you are fighting him.

Found out tembo can scan one day, also found out they have no lag between scan/look/attack.

But I don't worry much about it getting fixed, just means that with the way it is currently, even though people talk of not treating npc's differently then pc's you have no choice as far as combat, as long as code treats pc's and npc's differently then so will I.

[UnderSeven]

This brings up an issue though.  So since the code treats the npcs differently, and the arguement is this is fair because npcs arn't smart and you can trick them with stuff that wouldn't work on pcs, is it then okay to cheat the code and treate them like npcs?  

The answer would seem to be no, every npc even vnpcs should be treated like pcs, but then if we accepted they were stupider and treated them like pcs, they have an massive advantage in that they can do things that don't make sense, such as bash you repeatedly.

My answer? I don't play warrior pcs anymore, or rangers for that matter, because I don't really find the way those npcs scripts to work to be playable.  It leaves me feeling you're damned if you do (ie, treat them like npcs to even out the advantages) and damned if you don't (ie, oping for good rp.)

It's a decision I don't wish to me, I don't feel keen on cheating npsc and I also don't feel keen on losing chars I put effort into for reasons like that.

In closing, a carru isn't exactly the most deadly npc in the game (to name one example,) and yet it has the potiental to be if luck, yes luck, comes into play.  What I want to know, is how can something that can repeatedly bash you and kill you no matter how skilled you are, not just kill you.  If it has the strength to do it one way, it should be able to do it anyway.  

If a npc can kill pcs with the random chance of these undelayed commands hitting four times in a row, I'd rather they didn't have the commands at all and instead were just boosted so much that they could kill pcs that way with four hits in a row.  Clearly this isn't a serious suggestion, but my point is I don't really like that because of this code they can be almost like two different creatures.  The moderatly strong carru or the uber buff mek-carru, depending on how often the randomizer hits that bash.

[jmordetsky]

Carru are not bulls, and bulls are not carru. Let's stick to actual game concepts please.

Okay and while I'm at it I'll have the Imms write a dissertation on the physical anatomy of a carru so I won't be forced to draw analogies between the real and made up worlds.

I don't think a carru or a spider bashing you very 4 times before I can type bash twice is unrealistic if you read the and docs then genuinely *think about* what a carru or a giant desert spider is and what they might be capable of.

I do think that this behavior from another biped (human/elf/dwarf) is slightly ridiculous. The gith insta grabbing their weapons is slightly far fetched and the anecdote about the halfling eating a whole corpse during combat might need a little tweaking...

As for not drawing parallels between ARM and the real...well then we might as well not think about representing things *realistically*. What needs to be done is we think rationally and creatively about what type of creatures the npcs represent and determine what kind of behaviors would be realistic for the creature in the context of the fantasy world.

A little tiny halfing eating a whole carru while fending off my attacks with one hand is cartoonish. Though a giant worm swallow an entire carru corpse into it's gaping maw as I desperately slashed at its hide...is not.

[sacac]

Hmm.. They are -giant- spiders for crying outloud.. that means they have some big ass legs and some mean ass pincers:)

[UnderSeven]

Sigh. Okay, lemme try to explain again..
THE SPIDERS ARE USING THEIR LEGS AND PINCERS THE WHOLE FIGHT.  So if that's how they're bashing you than EVERY single attack should be a bash.  

The carru are using their antlers the WHOLE FIGHT, so everything they do should be a bash too under that arguement.

My point?  These creatures should reflect their potiental, they shouldn't be so tough one moment and then unstopibly bad ass the next.  If there is a reason they arn't using these things constantly and have a randomizer set to decide when they do use them, than the randomizer should at least take into account there seems to be a reason they arn't constantly doing it and prevent them from constantly doing it.

[sacac]

There not using there hold leg the whole time.. remember.. (Hopefully) Your PC is jumping around and trying to dodge?

[SailorMars]

THE SPIDERS ARE USING THEIR LEGS AND PINCERS THE WHOLE FIGHT. So if that's how they're bashing you than EVERY single attack should be a bash.

I disagree. Perhaps when they do actually bash it's due to a number of 'virtual' things. They chased you down, you're off balance, they got their full weight behind the attack, you bumped into someone else you were fighting with, your toe got stuck in the sand, etc. Any of those could explain why every attack isn't a bash. Or, from the other side, any of those could explain why there was a bash, in addition to a willful act by the creature, depending on how smart they may be.

[UnderSeven]

I disagree. Perhaps when they do actually bash it's due to a number of 'virtual' things. They chased you down, you're off balance, they got their full weight behind the attack, you bumped into someone else you were fighting with, your toe got stuck in the sand, etc. Any of those could explain why every attack isn't a bash. Or, from the other side, any of those could explain why there was a bash, in addition to a willful act by the creature, depending on how smart they may be.

That's more over my point.  If they're able to bash so much because they're so huge and it's just something they do, using their large legs and pinchers than every attack should be a bash, but if that's NOT the case, than they shouldn't be able to bash constantly. Currently the way I understand, the code is a randomized chance they bash and it's possible for them to bash as many times in a row as that chance comes up, no delay, no draw backs.  My arguement is that they should have a delay between the last time they bashed and the next time they can bash.

[SailorMars]

My arguement is that they should have a delay between the last time they bashed and the next time they can bash.

Oh. Yeah. Mobs seem on some randomizer that may result in no lag whatsoever, or long periods of not doing anything special. It probably wouldn't hurt to have a minimal time between their actions, like PCs have. Or maybe that levels the playing field because they don't have the equivilant AI of a human player. I dunno...

I remember when the code for carrus was first put in...

And this pretty tough looking Mul got raped by the stun loss right in front of me and my companion..I was like uh oh.

[Dan]

He was raped by a carru? Damn, did it ask for consent first?

Anyways...

These animals are large and dangerous, it is possible for them to trample you over and over if they see fit. Spear or not, the code takes your ability to hit them into account here. It is possible to dodge out of the way of their attacks.

If you really need one of these things dead, then I suggest you shoot them from a distance with arrows or just plain avoid them. They are very dangerous beasts, not to be taken lightly. The code reflects this.

[X-D]

Nobody is arguing that the animals and such are not supposed to be a danger or that they should not be able to kill most pc's easily, Just let them follow the same rules everybody else has.

If I have a dwarf going against a bahamet, a shelled animal bigger then a house and that bahamet kicks the dwarf, well, that dwarf just got kicked by a foot bigger then a kank that is attached to a leg that has to carry 20ton(?) animal around, I expect him to take a huge amount of damage/stun and get knocked ass over tincups, maybe several rooms.

What I do not expect is for that animal to be able to kick/bash/kick without any delay what-so-ever.

I have no problem with a tembo being fast and strong, with deadly natural weaponry, I do have a problem with them being able to hunt/scan/l/attack in under 4 seconds.

[SailorMars]

If you really need one of these things dead, then I suggest you shoot them from a distance with arrows or just plain avoid them. They are very dangerous beasts, not to be taken lightly. The code reflects this.

I'll buy that for a dollar, but...

[satire]There are magick elves, dwarves, and humans running around that can do this too! They look like everybody else, tend to be sort of introverted, but when push comes to shove, watch out![/satire]

Heh, my point is, and I could be wrong, but all mobs seem bound by these rules, be it the major races, a vestrik or a silt horror. I would think NPC  elves, dwarves, and humans would be bound by the same rules as PCs, but again, maybe that random factor gives them an edge to make up for not having a human player... Just my 2 'sids.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Some things can be considered makeup for not possessing advanced AI. Other things can be considered buggy, pure and simple. The ability to bash three times in a row with no delay is one of the latter. I do not like the idea of death-trap animals. IRL, animals are semi-predictable. A moose can bash the fuck out of you IRL, but it can't bash you and then bash you again without turning around. This is currently what carru can do. So, unless it has antlers on its ass, and it bashs you and then backs up to bash you again, this is unacceptable.

[UnderSeven]

I agree whole hearted 7.  As I stated ealier, these animals are death traps, you take a maxed out warrior and they could get killed by a carru that just happens to bash five times in a row.  The fact that the carru without bashing five times in a row doesn't reflect it's ability to luck out.  

This doesn't reflect their lack of AI either, because if you make that arguement that leaves players with the choice of either A) getting killed by npcs because they treated them like pcs or B) making use of how stupid they are and always shooting them from two rooms away.

A player should not be forced to make this choice.

I've brought this issue up before, but I still feel very strongly.  ALL I ASK, is a short delay between bashes.  That isn't much to ask, it doesn't change that these beasts are dangerous.  But if we can't have the delay, then boost these animals up so EVERYTHING they do reflects their ability and not just one skill.

[X-D]

Well, we know npc's are bound by the same rules (or lack of) as mobs.
How, by the ever popular....

An allanaki soldier shouts "Stop in the name of the highlord!"
85hp 100mv 112st standing, walking>
An allanaki soldier sheaths a shortsword
An allanaki soldier sheaths a longsword
An allanaki soldier attempts to subdue you but fails!
An allanaki soldier draws a longsword
An allanaki soldier draws a shortsword
An allanaki soldier slices you very hard in the head
An allanaki soldier pierces you on the leg.

62hp 100mv 76st standing, walking> flee self
You flee to the east
An allanaki soldier arrives from the west
62hp 92mv 77st standing, running>nosave on
An allanaki soldier sheaths a shortsword
An allanaki soldier sheaths a longsword
An allanaki soldier attempts to subdue you but fails!
nosave on
An allanaki soldier draws a longsword
An allanaki soldier draws a shortsword
An allanaki soldier's slash does frightening damage to your neck!
An allanaki soldier pierces you in the head for unspeakable damage!
7hp 92mv 10st standing, running> say Fuck!
An allanaki soldier slashes you very hard in the head!
BEEP!

A Npc can move/sheath/subdue/draw/attack/move no lag.

Now, don't mind no lag on sheath/subdue since I can do that also, but to fail then be able to draw right away...eeewww, In a way the old script when they used to drop weapons to subdue you was better, at least if they failed punching was probly not gonna kill you before you could flee/nosave.

Also, at one time npc/mob scripts were very simple, the no lag on commands made sense, but now these scripts are becoming quite powerful, even to the point that some mobs/npc's are able to work together in groups, and I'm not talking about just simple group attacks either.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I agree. With the advancement of Armageddon's scripting abilities, I should think we could see more intelligent actions from NPCs as opposed to simplistic buffing methods of leveling the playing field.

[Carnage]

NPCs ARE mobs. Mob is short for mobile object, but it generally applies to any sort of character ran by the computer.

[X-D]

Everybody knows that Carnage, but some years ago on the old gdb people were bitching about people calling npc's mobs since it was origanely a H&S mud term, hence the distinction made, animals in mud can often be called mobs with nobody complaining because they can be treated as just that, mindless/stupid animals, where as NPCs should be treated as thinking creatures rather then "mobile objects".
(edit)

Though, on topic with the thread, current lack of delay and all that on commands does make it hard to treat them as anything -but- mobs.

[jhunter (not logged)]

The only problems I have with the bash thing are; multiple bashes with no delay like a pc has when doing them, and the fact that outdoor rooms are supposed to represent a much larger area...hence, bashing a char into another outdoor room is a bit cheesy IMHO.

I also find it rather strange that when the same creature is in close combat with my pc (who is skilled enough to evade or block all melee attacks from the beast) then the creature lowers it's head and charges and manages to knock the same char to the ground.

I mean, the beast even shows you what it's going to do before it does it, you can evade all other attacks from it, but when it charges you suddenly just stand there and let it hit you?!!!!

Anyway, I agree that alot of the npc bashes I've seen are pretty bugged and overpowered.

[sacac]

Hmm.. I misspelt some words.. Hopefully your aren't being mid-evil knight thing and standing and not moving, just using your shield and sword.

So since you aren't being that, then you would be hopping around, ducking, rolling, trying to dodge, right? so you wouldn't get the full blow and a bash of a giant spider when your really close to it and barely duck letting the bigger part of a leg fly over your body, and spider, alright They should be able to kick without lag.

[Anonymous]

So since you aren't being that, then you would be hopping around, ducking, rolling, trying to dodge, right? so you wouldn't get the full blow and a bash of a giant spider when your really close to it and barely duck letting the bigger part of a leg fly over your body, and spider, alright They should be able to kick without lag.

Your arguement is flawed.  Weaving about is purely in relation to normal combat attacks as when you do get struck you get hit with a normal combat attack.  Their combat skills are not what they normally use.  Therefore no matter how much dodging you are doing it, it has nothing to do with how much delay they get.

Another thing, if your arguement were to hold true, than a uber bad ass fighter who could dodge the regular attacks, should be just as adept with the special ones.  But they're not

[ashjpd]

I wouldn't think that all anmials goals are to knock you down and kill you. Maybe some of them want to see what you can do and give you a shot, I mean, after all, they have brains also. They could yes, but would they really want to? Maybe if they were on the verge of death, and the only way for them to get away, is to knock you down and run away, then I think it would be pretty awesome. Plus, with the whole time thing, with letting the carru keep on doing it, the time in zalanthas would let them do it really, at that speed, it is just the npc is not emoting anything. Or that is what I think/believe.

[Quirk]

Another thing, if your arguement were to hold true, than a uber bad ass fighter who could dodge the regular attacks, should be just as adept with the special ones.  But they're not

Yes, but this is a flaw in the code, as has been pointed out on many numerous occasions. The ability of subdue or, I believe, kick, to bypass the defence skill makes no logical sense - if you cannot hit someone with your weapons because they defend so well, there's no way you're going to get a hand or foot past their guard. Given that this is arguably broken on humanoids, I don't think you can claim that it's special intentional behaviour designed to boost animal NPCs.

Quirk

[ashjpd]

I would also think that if you were mounted, it would be a lot easier to knock you to the ground, or maybe the tembo would have an erge to bash your mount? That would be pretty fun to see.

[Anonymous]

I personally don't like the barroom/citystreet aggroness of npc's, and the skill of them, even like...foofy noble npc's in bars.

You draw your knife, stabbing it quickly between the smirking templar's ear.

Your backstab does uber damage to the templar.
98/98 etc etc
The bartender's slash hits you on the head hard.
The large breasted serving girl's slap grazes your arm.
The skinny man's pound solidly thunks your chest.
48/98

The dark haired wench's kick knocks you to the ground.
40/98

The blood-eyed man standing in the back's hit does horrendous things to you!
-2/98

Death.

How can everyone from all the corners of the bar suddenly react to you that quickly???

[Tamarin]

I dunno but hopefully the new brawl code will prevent all this.

[spawnloser]

Actually, it probably won't.  Brawl code is to allow bar fights...not brawl murders.

[Tamarin]

Um....oh yeah.  Then I guess people will have to grow their fingernails really long and use them to backstab that pesky templar instead.

[Lasakar]

I dunno but hopefully the new brawl code will prevent all this.

I too. But you should remove your knife first....

You draw your knife, stabbing it quickly between the smirking templar's ear.

:wink:

[UnderSeven]

Sacac,  before you bring up that weaving argument again, please instead of repeating yourself, address some of the issues that shot you down every other time you brought it up.  I'm not opposed to standing your ground, but your argueing the same thing and people are pointing out the same flaws in it and then you're argueing it again without actually rebutting any of their arguments.  Kind of makes it pointless to even bring it up.

How npcs all center on one pc I don't nessicarily think is such a bad thing.  For one, it's a bar, they're constantly looking out for trouble.  Also the fight in gameis probably moving a lot faster than the fight would be in reality.  Lets say you whack the person a time or two, they natrually try to distance themselves to either 1) escape or 2) counter attack and all the while the bouncers and such are alterted by your attack and everyone around you backinug up (as people tend to when a fight braeks out) and then all rush at you.  I think this code is pretty solid.  

Npc soldiers.  I'm going to have to say the city state criminal system isn't really that broken.  Mainly because the soldiers probably only represent a small number of the people whom are actually there.  I'd say that it's fairly likely a pc can escape a single soldier, it would be hard to escape two, three would be pretty much impossible.  They're trained to work together and do team work stuff.  Drawing weapons right after a subdue though?  Eh, that's a little hockey.  Do npcs follow any of the delay rules pcs have?

[X-D]

Do npcs follow any of the delay rules pcs have?

No.

Cept maybe movement.

[Bogre]

Npc soldiers.  I'm going to have to say the city state criminal system isn't really that broken.  Mainly because the soldiers probably only represent a small number of the people whom are actually there.  I'd say that it's fairly likely a pc can escape a single soldier, it would be hard to escape two, three would be pretty much impossible.  They're trained to work together and do team work stuff.  Drawing weapons right after a subdue though?  Eh, that's a little hockey.  Do npcs follow any of the delay rules pcs have?

And it is possible to escape from soldiers without running to the rinth or something. Just hard to do it, and even harder to do it with a try to emote kicking the soldier in the shins when he grabs your ass.

[UnderSeven]

It is possible to escape without running into the rinth.  I played a pickpocket once who did just find and avoided the rinth.  I went in it maybe two times. You just have to be creative.