Sex, sexuality, committment, & virtual reality.

[Nothing on under cloak.]

I'll post this thread here in General as well, for the sake of everyone having a chance to chime in.  Please answer as objectively as possible, and please, no anti-gay or anti-bi comments.  No off-topic or derailing threads either, use the derailment thread in the OOC forum for that:


The identical post is in Ask the Staff, click here to see if any of them have responded:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=60206#60206

I've searched through the forums trying to find answers to sex in Arm, haven't found much to answer my questions, so here they are.


Question number one:

What is the average sexuality of the average Zalanthan? Hetero? Bisexual? Gay and/or Lesbian?

Two:

Is there a homosexual population in Zalanthas and, if so, approximately what do you think is the % breakdown?

Three:

The predominant attitude towards sex and committment in Arm. Specifically, do Zalanthans committ to one person and have girlfriend/boyfriend relationships, or do they have sex however they can get it?

Four:

Very much related to three, love and lifelong committment. How common is marriage amongst the commoners of Zalanthas? How common, excluding marriage, are long-term relationships presuming the people in question don't die, or move away over the course of a number of years?

Five:

Virtual mudsex. If you want to play a "swinger" character who will invite every potential mate into his/her bed, can we be justified in claiming our characters have sex with virtual mates?

I ask because, while it seems to me we players have that freedom, some characters seem to be played as swingers, but don't seem to ever get caught having sex with other PCs, so if he/she isn't "getting any" from other PCs is it justified for you to have your PC claim she/he is having sex with virtual characters?

And, if the last question is a yes, is it something you would expect to see played out, or do we as players have the same discretion to fade or play out however we choose?


Thanks in advance for taking your time to read this post, and answering to it if you do.

Anonymous with nothing on under cloak.  :twisted:

[Gorobei]

For your first two questions, homosexuality does exist on Zalanthas, and true homosexuals are most likely about as common there as the real world.  However, Zalanthas is closer to ancient Greece than today's society.  Homosexuals are seen as something ordinary and definitely not discriminated against.  In addition, most heterosexuals wouldn't be entirely repulsed by performing a homosexual act.  Zalanthas differs from ancient Greece in the fact that heterosexuals in homosexual relationships wouldn't be the norm.

For three and four, this is entirely up to you and your character.  Marriage is a thing for the merchant and noble houses, and is generally based solely on business.  However, while marriage doesn't exist for the common person, human emotion does.  If your character falls in love with another, that may be the only relationship that your character feels a need for.  On the other hand, your character could be a Zalanthan Ron Jeremy, pumping out babies east and west.  These are the ends of the spectrum, obviously, and relationships can fall anywhere in between.

For you last question, this is again up to you.  Just because all those prissy PCs resist your suave seductions doesn't mean you can't go Gajing and pick up a hunter for a couple of days while (s)he's in town (this goes double if your character is willing to pay).

To answer question 5 b, here's 'help consent':

Consent  (Rules)  


There are few restrictions on roleplay in Armageddon. If you choose to roleplay adult situations, that is fine. However, before instigating such an act with another player, please OOC to make sure that the role play is consented to. If someone is instigating roleplay that makes you uncomfortable, please OOC that they should stop. If they continue despite being told to stop, please wish up. This rule is not meant to be abused in order to allow characters to escape death/torture/etcetera. Perhaps a good analogy is the movie ratings system: some people may wish to see the details acted out in a way which would deserve an R rating while another, younger player might prefer that the details be commun- cated in an OOC fashion and left offstage.


Specifically in the case of roleplaying through a rape, the instigator takes on added responsibility. In this case, the instigator absolutely must OOC'ly ask for and must obtain explicit consent from the victim's player prior to involving their character in any emote specifically indicative of the act of rape, no matter how non-graphical you believe it to be.


If you act out a graphic sequence without first obtaining the other player's consent, and the player then complains within a reasonable amount of time (so that the runlogs can be checked and the complaint verified), you will be banned. In such cases, therefore, please use common sense and have respect for other people's sensibilities.

See also:


rules

[UnderSeven]

I agree pretty much with the previous post.  Homosexuality exists on arm and I'd say the breakdown is the same as the real world BUT because it's more accepted in Arm, the people who have homosexual or bisexual tendancies are more likely to express them because they don't have much to fear for doing it.

Commoner marriage is very rare.  In Arm marriage is more or less a noble/merchant thing and it's basically done for power.  Some commonres might do something like that, but it lacks any legal or social meaning really.  

As far as how many parteners, this one I bet many will disagree with.  There are many cultures on arm and CONTRARY TO SOME BELIEF, there ARE monogamous groups in arm.  People whose history and tradition calls for sticking to a single mate.  Therefore it not only exists but is seen fairly everyday.  However, I'd like to say I think poligomy is the generally accepted norm.  Especially in the city states.

[flurry]

My opinions..


Question 1:   I'd say predominantly heterosexual.   Probably it would seem that there are more homosexual and bi people, because there is less sexual repression.

Question 2:   % is tough.  I don't know.  Maybe 80% hetero, 10% bi, 10% homosexual.  

Question 3:    Overall I think homosexuality would not be viewed as any more unusual or controversial than being left-handed.   I don't know about monogamy.  I'd say less cultural value placed on monogamy, but still plenty of monogamous relationships.  

Question 4:   I think of marriage as being something for nobles and merchant house familiy members etc.    Lifelong commitments, I definitely think would be pretty normal.   I think in a harsh world people would stick close with people they trust.

Question 5:   I think it's perfectly fine to have a PC with a wild sex life, that is never played out, and never involves other PCs.   As long as it fits the character and is realistic, I don't think it matters whether it happens virtually or not.

[Delirium]

re: question five - I've played characters that were supposedly sexually wild, but due to a dislike of mudsex, most of their adventures were virtual. I saw nothing wrong with that. I did get some reactions from PCs like 'you can't have slept with so and so the other night, I've never heard of them' which annoyed me a bit, but other than that, it worked swimmingly.

re: homosexuality and multiple partners - no big deal. Deciding to stick with one person because you enjoy their company enough to not need another - no big deal. In fact, whatever your character likes, is no big deal. The only thing that might be seen as odd is being extremely possessive, as a matter of fact. That seems like a hard concept for some people to wrap their minds around, but I like it, as it further splits the game from reality. Have a partner at home but bored with her? Go bang a chick in the Gaj for a few obsidian. Doesn't mean the partner is not allowed to feel a twinge of jealousy, but it wouldn't be this horrendously big deal either. About the same level of annoyance as, "damn it Jimbob, you went out drinking again, didn't you?" "Jest a wee nip, Marge!"

[Bestatte]

To add to Delirium_the_Wise's post...

I've experienced situations where my character was brought up in a polygamous/polyganous (many females/many males) household, and was a little confused as to why players of other characters RPed that their characters couldn't possibly comprehend that notion.

Your characters -can- understand the notion, because they are surrounded by it. Perhaps your character has found one person they want to be with and feels no need to stray, and that's -FINE-. My character might not quite undersand it, but she won't take issue with it, because she is just as surrounded by monogamous family units as your character is with non-monagmous family units.

It's an interesting dynamic, having characters born of different backgrounds get together like this. But it really irks me when I have a character who isn't sure which male of the house is her father, and someone tries to make an issue of it.

Please remember that in Zalanthas, it isn't an issue.

[Nothing on under cloak]

Thanks for the answers so far.  In making this post, I was trying to get at your opinions, and not the terse "do whatever you like" answers, good to see plenty of people chiming in.

How about dealing with players who seem to play their characters in our North American / much more restrictive ideas of sexuality - how do you handle people who start playing their characters as thinking less of your own PC because she/he has sex with a lot of people?

What would the polygamous population of Zalanthas say to someone who was taking the attitude that sex with multiple people means you are less honorable than someone who is monogamous?  i.e. The PC's comments hint that you are a male or female "slut".  What do you say to them? (Please, no "whatever you want" responses)

And how do you deal with these attitudes over time when the PC doesn't change opinions because the player doesn't know sexuality Armageddon-style? (granted, many people do change how they play this)

(Aside, I did a search on a couple dictionaries on the usage of "polyganous" and could find no such word)

[Bestatte]

Edited to add: See flurry's post below this one. She/he summed up the poly"thing" up nicely.

I probably spelled it wrong. Polygamy is a male with several wives. The other is a female with several husbands. Polyginy maybe? Ask My 2 Sids, she's the one who found it

To answer the other question, it's a toughie. I generally use a common rule of thumb: the ones who are *blatant* and *obvious* about their sexuality in public places, are those my more dignified characters would consider "sluts" or "loose" or "lacking any social decorum." Such as the F-Me PCs whose public behaviors match their descriptions, who shimmy and shake their bootay when they walk, make a concerted effort to let everyone know that they're exposing their naked thigh when they cross their mini-skirt-covered legs, who giggle incessantly and flirt loudly...

Those are the ones most my characters (and I as the player) would consider the loose ones with no pride, who most of my characters (and I as the player) would assume exist for the express purpose of getting laid.

I have had characters who aren't into the monogamy thing at all, but they *tend* to be less in-your-face about it. With very few exceptions, you won't find them swivelling their hips suggestively or purring when they talk or reaching forward to pick something up off the floor just so they can show off their perfectly formed perky tits to the entire room. To each their own, obviously - however I as a player have no desire to RP the slattern, and whether appropriate or not, my characters will see such behavior as slatternly and *usually* disapprove of such behavior.

Afterall, even a decently played whore has a little class and understands the word "discretion."

[flurry]

I probably spelled it wrong. Polygamy is a male with several wives. The other is a female with several husbands. Polyginy maybe? Ask My 2 Sids, she's the one who found it

I think you're thinking of polyandry (for multiple husbands) and polygyny (for multiple wives).  I think polygamy covers both.

[spawnloser]

I probably spelled it wrong. Polygamy is a male with several wives. The other is a female with several husbands. Polyginy maybe? Ask My 2 Sids, she's the one who found it

I think you're thinking of polyandry (for multiple husbands) and polygyny (for multiple wives).  I think polygamy covers both.

To paraphrase another...

flurry is correct.

[Anonymous]

Before I progress, I just want to say that I am quite cool with the topic in RL, so please let's keep this a Zalanthas issue and nobody overreact if I brush delicately against someone's RL hot-button issues.  Therefore if y'all would read to the end and take a deep breath before pounding your keyboards, that would be great.  That said:

All the response posts seem to be supporting the notion that Zalanthian society across the board is an absolute eden of sexual tolerance where people can come together sexually in whatever fashion they might desire without fear of reprisal or social stigma.  Let us do a brief RL/Zalanthas comparison, shall we?  I think that I can say in fair confidence that RL-wise, most people if polled would cite The Big D (that's D-scrimination folks) as being the big no-no of all time, specifically in terms of racial discrimination (epitomized through slavery and acts of war/genocide), and gender discrimination (epitomized by sexual stigma).  While I will not be so brass as to suggest that I have a finger on the pulse of the entire globe and all its many peoples and nations, I think that I can be granted enough leeway to discuss my own.

While on the -individual- level people still rate on all points of the spectrum ranging from perfect tolerence to absolute bigotry, I think it is safe to say that on the official or legislative level great strides have been made to curtail the abuses brought about by mankind's 'right' to freedom of thought and belief.  Emancipation, and the end of slavery.  Sufferage and the vote.  Freedom of religion.  Affirmative action and diversity politics.  All of these are indicators of an overall societal shift toward a gentler, more humane approach to the problems of basic human interaction.

In comparison of course, is Zalanthas.  Slavery, religious persecution, species-hatred, class-hatred and abuse, ability-hatred (mind-benders and magickers).  And yet, sexuality is free and unchecked and apparently nobody gives a damn, not only across genders but often apparently across different sub-species as well.  It doesn't quite ring true.

I think that perhaps the reason for this is as follows.  While slavery is certainly an emotionally-charged issue, there is a certain degree of separation that affords a mental margin of safety.  There has been no slavery in my country or even my range of experience in my lifetime or  that of my parents, so I can roleplay in a society where slavery exists without worrying about mixing with current RL struggles or issues.  There is an even farther remove if an emphasis is lent to non-human slavery (muls in particular stand out).  This leads easily into Zalanthian racism, which is again at a remove in that it is effectively a species issue as opposed to one of race, at least as 'race' is defined in RL.  There are no instances in Zalanthas of 'dark-skinned' or 'red-haired', or 'narrow-eyed' or 'blue-eyed' individuals harboring animosities toward each other based on those differences, not when there are 'skinnies', 'baldies' and 'bugs' that can be safely hated and discriminated against through roleplay with out feeling pangs of conscience in RL.

This brings us around to sexuality, which I suggest follows in similar vein.  I have seen a few instances of roleplayed revulsion between 'species' which holds a degree of safety, but I suggest that the roleplay of sexual discrimination between those of the same 'species' strikes too close to the RL issues of the day for people to play comfortably, which I suspect is a very large reason for its absence in-game, from a player and staff perspective.  

In summation, I suggest that the greater struggle for life on Zalanthas as a whole as opposed to ol' planet Earth would indeed cultivate a deeper divisiveness along all issues as people factionalize and marginalize into ever smaller and more manageable groups for the purposes of the feeling of enforced safety and clannishness such bigotry provides, as well as the greater hearts-ease of 'reclaiming resources' from beings that are clearly 'inferior' or 'degenerate', as opposed to just killin' fellow sentient beings just to take their loot.

Well, looks like I've run long again.  I'd love to see some intelligent discussion on this subject.  Please no emotional outbursts, as I have already explained this is not an issue of personal or RL rancor on my part, so such a response would be both inappropriate and un-necessary.  And please no 'The staff say this is the way it is, so that is the way it is, so there!' type of posts.  I already know the official position, I am merely arguing as to whether or not it is intellectually or historically defensible.  Alright, go ahead.  I'm done.

[Stiofan]

Oh, that long-winded thing is mine.  I thought I was logged-in.  Sorry

[Bestatte]

No vitriol here, Stiofan. I'll attempt to address the arguement from my perspective.

Zalanthas is a world of fast and furious life and death. It's not like anywhere else in the RL world, where only isolated areas live for the moment only to die in the next instant. The entire game world revolves around this rather than just one country or region.

As such, the "fight or flight" mentality is almost engrained into the characters' lives and minds. Pleasure comes in fleeting moments, and you grab it where you can, and when you can, because you could just as easily be dead tomorrow and never have experienced it at all.

The characters, being diverse, will have preferences. Some will prefer the "symbol of wealth and luxury" - that being the round, pudgy body caused by never having to lift a finger to get what they want. Some will prefer to stick with their own general "type" because it's familiar. Some will prefer same sex for the usual RL reasons, but also because hedonism is not a foreign or taboo concept, and perhaps pleasure for its own sake is fine with them. Some will prefer opposite sex relationships, monogamous, multi-mate, whatever..

For the same reasons as there are in real life. But the reason it isn't frowned upon in society, though it is in real life in some cultures, is simply because life is WAY too short to worry about who the guy at the table next to you is fucking this week. The fact that he's getting any at all and lives to tell about it is something worth rejoicing, not something to scorn.

[spawnloser]

I'd also note, in addition to what Bestatte said, society also tends to follow those in a greater standing...the nobility.  The nobility is, to put it succinctly, a bunch of degenerates by our standards.  Of the male nobles I've seen in game, at least one was bisexual...of female nobles I've seen, at least two were bisexual or possibly lesbian.  That is almost half of the nobles I've met.  They have to have opposite sex relationships, as their families will require them to wed and mate for the purposes of having children.  Same sex relationships?  Their extramarital hanky-panky, however, is another thing...and commoners will see, or (be forced to) participate in.  Now...the nobility is better than commoners.  They know better.  It must be okay.

However, nobles happily practice bigotry when it comes to species and class differences.  They would discriminate against those that sleep with those of other species and the results of such unions.

Personally, I would prefer to keep any form of discrimination that can hit close to home in RL avoided...which would mean no prejudice based on color of eyes, skin or hair, no prejudice based on sexuality and no prejudice based on gender.  That does allow everyone, regardless of where they fall in those categories to feel safe as a player.  Racism based of races in Zalanthas, or region of birth in Zalanthas...that I'm completely fine with, as no player of this game is an elf/mul/dwarf/halfling/half-giant/mantis or from Tuluk/Allanak/Storm/Luir's etc.

[UnderSeven]

I'd like to add, the different cultures in arm also have different taboo's.  Lemme give a few examples.  In the south it's okay for a noble to mess around with commonres, though possibly frowned on or a very bad idea, dependant on the house.  In the north it's absolutely taboo.  More examples?  There is a culture on arm that mates for live.  They might have serious problems with someone who is constantly having multiple lovers.  They at least descriminate heavily against bastard children.  Some of the more poligomous cultures may in turn view monogamy as silly and even as a challanging notion to their life style.  No one likes to have someone else come around and make them think twice about their own life.  

My point is, the question you posed is a very broad one in a game that has a lot of small areas of specific differences.

[sarahjc]

Those are the ones most my characters (and I as the player) would consider the loose ones with no pride, who most of my characters (and I as the player) would assume exist for the express purpose of getting laid.

I have had characters who aren't into the monogamy thing at all, but they *tend* to be less in-your-face about it. With very few exceptions, you won't find them swivelling their hips suggestively or purring when they talk or reaching forward to pick something up off the floor just so they can show off their perfectly formed perky tits to the entire room. To each their own, obviously - however I as a player have no desire to RP the slattern, and whether appropriate or not, my characters will see such behavior as slatternly and *usually* disapprove of such behavior.

Afterall, even a decently played whore has a little class and understands the word "discretion."

Honestly.. I see nothing wrong with these people.. Infact I would go as far as to say that in your face sextuallty is just fine and when rp'd out well, it can be an impressive and persuasive tool. (to the horror and dismay of all feminists) :shock:

I think this post goes a bit on the side of personal attack Bestatte, as I think I know clearly of one characters that you are speaking of and she is one of the best Rp'ers in the game..If I am wrong do correct me.

That said, I think all walks of life are easily eccepted in Zalathas, from rough and tumble to sultry seductress.. Basicly put.. what you do in the private or not so private life of your PC is up to you. As long as you follow the rules.. anything goes. But expect everyone to judge, approve, disapprove...ect..

Cause there is nothing like a good sex scandel to keep us all interested.. and there hasn't really been one in a while..

[Bestatte]

I'll ask you to kindly not make assumptions. For the record, I have several characters in mind, and have absolutely no idea who plays most of them.

[spawnloser]

sarahjc...why would you make the assumption that what Bestatte did was a personal attack?  What is wrong with a character that acts like a slut being called a slut?  It's not a reflection on the player...unless that is all the player knows how to play.

[My 2 sids]

To keep from getting too longwinded I'll address questions three and four.

The predominant attitude towards sex and commitment in Arm. Specifically, do Zalanthans commit to one person and have girlfriend/boyfriend relationships, or do they have sex however they can get it?

In our society today (for the most part) sex is sacred.  Sex has religious overtones, economic and status overtones, commitment overtones, and other parts to it one would simply not find in Zalanthan.  Their sex I think basically comes down to two things.  Reproduction and "drink and be merry for tomorrow you may die" fun.  I think in any society where life is short, there is an underlying need to continue to populate.  It is my option then that sex would be on the minds of many Zalanthans.  That means many of them would focus on finding mates.  Mates, I feel, would require more commitment.  The relationship would take as long as it would take to raise any and all children from the relationship.   Because of the time commitment involved I think mating couples might be more one on one and building relationship, most likely the mates would be very good friends and have more of a two-way street.  The goal of which would be reproduction.   The other type of sex would be more casual.  One night stands good for sharing a brief bit of fun.  This I think would be more with prostitutes and pleasure slaves; at the very least there would mostly likely be one more dominate in the relationship and dictating what happens in it.  

Very much related to three, love and lifelong commitment. How common is marriage amongst the commoners of Zalanthas? How common, excluding marriage, are long-term relationships presuming the people in question don't die, or move away over the course of a number of years?

Again, I'd say most long term relationships would happen in a reproduction sense.  So parents would stay together long enough to raise children.  Or perhaps some sort of polygamy would insure.  Or a relationship would last however long the dominate partner decides to allow it.   Like with a call girl or concubine, or dwarven friendship where it works as long as it may help the dwarf get what they need from it.

Although I would guess virginity (being so hard to come across) would be worth a great deal, I also don't see sex itself as worth that much.  Life is too hard and too short to play games with people.  Either one has fun with a partner, produces a child or moves up in society, or its time to move on.  Dating always seems to bring about jealousy, battle of wits, and even self destruction... things that don't fit in a survival type society. What I don't see happening would be "dating".   It takes too much energy to put a great deal of time and emotional commitment into someone without at least trying to achieve an end result.

[ShaLeah]

I wonder if we're ever going to get sick of discussing the same topics over and over again. Sexuality comes up at least 12 times a year.

Is it at all possible to make an Imm approved web page of realistic Zalanthan sexual habits or customs?  Just a general... Homosexuality is A-OK and/or Multiple people  "marriages" are A-OK.

ShaL

[Law&Order]

This reminds me of long ago when a single man named Onyxwolf brought the race of half-elf to the world.  A man, a dream, a scheme, Onyxwolf.

[Akaramu]

I wonder if we're ever going to get sick of discussing the same topics over and over again. Sexuality comes up at least 12 times a year.

Thats why I'm not going to comment. The whole subject is pretty much self-evident. And not all that interesting. Its as old as humanity... how many layers of dust would that be?

Where is the official Doc that says that everyone is a polygamist. The consensus is that because its a different culture from ours that there would be no such thing as monogamy?

Because life is hard and fast, then sleep around all you want.. Shrug maybe but what about people who want someone to be there for them. To watch their back when everyone else is against them. etc. Perhaps in the cities, but I think that in tribal situations, there might be instances where there was religious or cultural  influences that promoted monogamy, whether for descendant of the chief or who knows what.

I say it exists. Now I was watching a show about a completely free sexual culture existed in central or south america. But once they discovered the concept of jealousy it swept into their little happy world. So I say that since it does exist the concept does exist,  and some people in the cities are descended from tribals, so the idea and practice would get around. I am not saying it is prevalent, Perhaps on the same level as homosexuality. Known and accepted as a slight deviation from 'the norm'.

[Bestatte]

I don't think anyone here is claiming that everyone in Zalanthas is a polygamist, Dead Newbie. Nor that monogamy is unkosher in the genre. The point is, like beauty, preferences for sexual relationships are by and large up to the beholder.

There is no taboo on any of the usual variants such as polygamy, monogamy, hetero or homosexuality, sexual ambiguity, bisexuality. None of these things are considered "bad" or "immoral" in the world of Armageddon.

My only issue is with blatant, intentionally public sexual promiscuity, no matter whether the character is monogamous or has their own harem.  But that's just me, and doesn't necessarily reflect the social mores of the game world.

[crymerci]

Maybe I just don't get around enough, but I rarely see actual polyamory.  I see open sexual relationships, but polyamory sort of implies that while having multiple sexual partners, they are more than just sexual partners, and they are involved not only with you (as a lover) but with your other partners (as extended family) and that you are likewise involved with their partners (as extended family) and so on.

Granted, lots of things happen behind closed doors, but I've rarely seen anyone spend time with two lovers at the same time, where everything was out in the open and relations were not only civil but amicable between all.

Of course I'm not implying that this should be the norm.  I think the norm on Zalanthas should be that there is no norm.