Brewing Change

[Twilight]

• There are more than 15 recipes under the old system for making different liquids with different stills.  Are you getting rid of the historical ingredient recipes?
• Will a number of recipes be clan locked, so only Oashi can make their specific vintages, for instance?
• Can Fence and Dune Trader custom craft liquid types as well?  The end of Custom Crafting hasn't been updated for Master Brewer, so not sure if that prohibition applies to these two guilds still.

[Dresan]

Would it be too OP to allow muddy or scummy water to be turned into more drinkable forms such as clean water under this system?

[Agent_137]

Sun Runners already had an ale that required muddy water which was what they drank in lieu of water.

So probably yeah

[Halaster]

• There are more than 15 recipes under the old system for making different liquids with different stills.  Are you getting rid of the historical ingredient recipes?
• Will a number of recipes be clan locked, so only Oashi can make their specific vintages, for instance?
• Can Fence and Dune Trader custom craft liquid types as well?  The end of Custom Crafting hasn't been updated for Master Brewer, so not sure if that prohibition applies to these two guilds still.

1. The old system was the reason for the new system.  Under the old, every recipe that you wanted on a still had to be added to that still.  If staff made a new still, they all had to be added again.  And it wasn't consistent, some stills had this group of recipes, another still had that group.  This consolidates it all into one thing.

That said, I haven't finished moving all the old ones to the new ones, no.  The old ones still work the same way as before, nothing has changed with them.  But over time I'll be replacing them with the new ones.

2. Yes, that's a big part of why I went the way I did with crafting recipes under brew - they can be clan locked.

3. No, Fence and Dune Trader cannot - only the subguild Master Brewer can CC drinks.  I've updated the Custom Craft and Custom Crafter helpfiles to reflect this.

[Halaster]

Something I think I forgot to say, you can assess a still/teapot/press/etc to see if they're useable with the new system.  If so, they will say:

assess teapot
You assess a tall, delicately-handled teapot...
...it is primarily made of stone.
...is meant for brewing beer or ale.


assess still
You assess a large, brown ceramic still...
...it is primarily made of ceramic.
...is meant for brewing spirits.


assess press
You assess a worn, agafari and bone wine-press...
...it is primarily made of bone.
...is meant for brewing wine.


If it doesn't have the line about brewing, it's not useable with this new system.

[Hindsight]

3. No, Fence and Dune Trader cannot - only the subguild Master Brewer can CC drinks.  I've updated the Custom Craft and Custom Crafter helpfiles to reflect this.

Will the subclass be required forever or will CCs open up for heavy crafters after testing, etc?

[Halaster]

Will the subclass be required forever or will CCs open up for heavy crafters after testing, etc?

I cannot say it will be this way forever, no.  But there's no plans currently to change this.

We would consider on a case-by-case basis for Fences or Dune Traders to be able to do this as a one-off to help fill out a clan's drink crafting list of existing drinks if it needs to be.

For example, Kurac has a couple of drinks exclusive to them that aren't craftable under the new system.  They weren't craftable under the old either, but these drinks are sold by Kuraci bartenders.  To make them craftable under the new system, we'd consider allowing a Kuraci (Fence or Dune Trader) to CC these specific drinks.  That said, staff may also just go ahead and make then craftable anyway, but if they don't, we'd consider letting those specified players do it.

And remember, if the recipe exists, anyone can try to brew them.  This is just about Custom Crafting drinks.

[Classclown]

I think that Master Brewer should come with haggle and value like the other Master subclasses. They should also get forage for food, to source their own ingredients if they want.

[Halaster]

I think that Master Brewer should come with haggle and value like the other Master subclasses. They should also get forage for food, to source their own ingredients if they want.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60883.msg1107658.html#msg1107658

[helix]

I don't have anything to add about the specifics of the new system, as I haven't been able to try it yet, but...

I really like the direction this is going. Whether or not the current implementation works, letting players craft their own drinks is a pretty cool addition, in my opinion.

The only concern I raise is that Brew does a lot as far as a single skill goes. Which isn't bad, in an of itself, I just wonder at the level of flexibility that brew gets versus other crafting skills.

[Agent_137]

The only concern I raise is that Brew does a lot as far as a single skill goes.

For those that don't know, brew does soap, incense, candles, alcohol, cures, and poisons.

It's basically the cooking skill for stuff that isn't food nor generic stuff like dried dung.

[Classclown]

I think that Master Brewer should come with haggle and value like the other Master subclasses. They should also get forage for food, to source their own ingredients if they want.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60883.msg1107658.html#msg1107658

Awesome!

[Classclown]

I don't have anything to add about the specifics of the new system, as I haven't been able to try it yet, but...

I really like the direction this is going. Whether or not the current implementation works, letting players craft their own drinks is a pretty cool addition, in my opinion.

The only concern I raise is that Brew does a lot as far as a single skill goes. Which isn't bad, in an of itself, I just wonder at the level of flexibility that brew gets versus other crafting skills.

Cooking and toolmaking also make a variety of things, that's not bad. Also, everything doesn't have to be equal to be balanced. Other crafting skills make things that sell for way more than what you'll get from anything you could make with the brew skill.

[helix]

Cooking and toolmaking also make a variety of things, that's not bad. Also, everything doesn't have to be equal to be balanced. Other crafting skills make things that sell for way more than what you'll get from anything you could make with the brew skill.

I agree on that - I only raise that point to say that brewing might be getting a little bloated. Cooking is a good as a catch-all because it's a skill every class gets, whereas toolmaking is mostly for the generalist crafter classes/subclasses, which I think also fits. On the other hand, it's fairly easy to get to a point of overuse with a successful system (which I think the brew skill is a successful system) where it is so flexible that it becomes an instant cash printing button because you're never in a situation where it's not useful. You may not make as much as someone with a different crafting skill on a single sale, for example, but if the skill becomes flexible enough, your total addressable market for the skill is much wider than that other crafter, enabling you to sell more, more often, potentially equaling out profits.

I don't think the skill is there yet - at least not from what I've seen, but it's something to think about.

Edit: For clarity.

[Bushranger]

I think that Master Brewer should come with haggle and value like the other Master subclasses. They should also get forage for food, to source their own ingredients if they want.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60883.msg1107658.html#msg1107658

edited because I made a suggestion that was already in the help files and I could not just delete the post 

I think everything in Master Brewer is awesome!

[Dusty Boots]

Master Brewer should get master cooking.
I know it seems like they could be bloated with 3 master skills, but keep in mind that nearly every main guild except T1s as far as I remember get advanced cooking. Also master cooking isn't as strong as having master in other skills, it's just nice to have. Like it's funny that master chef's main draw is master forage and skinning together in one package, not the master cooking part.

[Dresan]

keep in mind that nearly every main guild

This will probably be an unpopular idea, but if cooking ever gets a notable boost, it might make sense to see the current skill levels move downward. With heavy combat classes not getting the skill at all and light combat classes getting journeyman, etc. However, I would make eating burnt food a bit more nutritious than raw, making it a worthwhile endeavor to cook food even without the skill. This would make taking cooking even at advance a much more valuable choice and interesting RP experience for players.

[dumbstruck]

No. Everyone should be able to cook food. It's a basic life skill. Everyone should have a passable chance of climbing out of a not deep hole too. Like. Basic interaction with your environment should not take strategy in character creation. Why should half the classes burn their food? Just to make it suck? Like. Guy. It's making food. If you're an adult, I hope you can make food.

[Dusty Boots]

No. Everyone should be able to cook food. It's a basic life skill. Everyone should have a passable chance of climbing out of a not deep hole too. Like. Basic interaction with your environment should not take strategy in character creation. Why should half the classes burn their food? Just to make it suck? Like. Guy. It's making food. If you're an adult, I hope you can make food.

You try to boil the ramen but all you create is a burned mess.

[Halaster]

Everyone does already get cooking, heavy combat included.  They get it up to journeyman.

Master Brewer has better cooking than all three heavy combat, and all three light combat. 

[dumbstruck]

Everyone does already get cooking, heavy combat included.  They get it up to journeyman.

Master Brewer has better cooking than all three heavy combat, and all three light combat. 

Right. I'm saying it's good where it's at and it makes sense there and there's no reason to make it worse and it makes no sense to. I actually like how it is dude. <3

[creeper386]

This will probably be an unpopular idea, but if cooking ever gets a notable boost, it might make sense to see the current skill levels move downward.

If something like this became necessary, I would much rather see cooking split into different skills. Something like cooking / baking. Cooking. Some Advanced Cooking or something like that.

Because I could see if say, food was made to give boosts that was talked about previously, cooking might be harder to balance as just a single skill, but I still think most people should be allowed to grill meat and cook some tubers like they can currently.

[Halaster]

This will probably be an unpopular idea, but if cooking ever gets a notable boost, it might make sense to see the current skill levels move downward.

If something like this became necessary, I would much rather see cooking split into different skills. Something like cooking / baking. Cooking. Some Advanced Cooking or something like that.

Because I could see if say, food was made to give boosts that was talked about previously, cooking might be harder to balance as just a single skill, but I still think most people should be allowed to grill meat and cook some tubers like they can currently.

Yeah, I would love a "Cooking", "Journeyman Cooking", and "Master Cooking" type breakout.  Everyone would have Cooking, but not everyone would have the other two.  But .. ugh.  Crazy amounts of work to divide all that out, balance it between them, etc.

[Dresan]

As an alternative, a way could be to give all food a hidden quality value that is generated on the food when it is created based on skill and/or class/subclass/other factors. That way everyone can cook a piece of meat but someone skilled can take the same ingredients and just to a tremendously better job.

There would be a big difference between eating an omelette made by a novice and one made by an experience cook/chef. 

[creeper386]

Yeah, I would love a "Cooking", "Journeyman Cooking", and "Master Cooking" type breakout.  Everyone would have Cooking, but not everyone would have the other two.  But .. ugh.  Crazy amounts of work to divide all that out, balance it between them, etc.

Yes, with just the amount of crafts that is involved, I can't imaging trying to do this manually at all. I would imagine getting some base line success might be available scripting and sorting things out by value? Or even more complicated looking at ingredient value. If it is all in a database I'm im sure pouring over it as a data problem is viable.

[Dresan]

I agree on that - I only raise that point to say that brewing might be getting a little bloated.

I would agree with you if not for the quote below on brew(ignore the date  ).

This is an interaction between skills I really really like, as it keeps brew alone which is common across a few classes from being overly OP especially at lower levels. That said, I also don't think its as necessary to have similar interaction between brew and cooking for alcohol/drink making though it would certainly make some sense if it did for future recipes at least.

Crafting the absolute highest tier of poisons requires skill and knowledge of both brew and poisoning, though a proficient brewer can nearly get there.