Re: Requiring alts for Clan Boards

[Usiku]

I'm not too fussed about it, but does this mean I need to change now?  Cat's already out of the bag, for me.  I haven't used this handle for maybe ten plus years as a GDB clan handle, thought it would be fine.

You don't need to change your account for current PC in your current clan, no. Like you say, cat is out of the bag. Some people are because they want to, and that's up to them.

[Twilight]

I think this will help improve the integrity of game play within the game itself, through preventing both intentional and unconscious bias.  To me it is not about protecting a player.  It is about protecting all the players impacted by changes in game play brought about by OOC factors. Though it is an inconvenience to me personally, I recognize the benefit to the game itself.

[Veselka]

I think this will help improve the integrity of game play within the game itself, through preventing both intentional and unconscious bias.  To me it is not about protecting a player.  It is about protecting all the players impacted by changes in game play brought about by OOC factors. Though it is an inconvenience to me personally, I recognize the benefit to the game itself.

I agree. I think something not mentioned here, is how you are tied to past long-lived PCs. So if I played a long-lived Byn Sergeant, and I join the Byn on the same handle (forgetting which handle I used for that Sergeant), I am immediately tied to that PC and all the biases that brings for other people (love or hate).

There are also biases about old accounts; if they are an old player, they must be high karma, and therefore must be playing a secret Magicker.

There's a bevy of conscious and unconscious bias that comes behind tying the Player to the Character. I applaud Staff for taking the steps to counteract these biases, help mitigate speculation and OOC armchair commander play both here, on the discord, and on the Jcarter Forums, and help protect Players' identities from being tied in with their PCs.

It's a game people.

While this is inconvenient (?) I think the pro's outweigh the con's. Have some empathy for your local leadership role. Staff have taken the steps towards 'Keeping IC Events/Punishments/Actions IC' and not tying OOC methods of communication/speculation (requests, wishing down) with players. Can't Players police themselves and do the same? Or can we just not help ourselves in spilling tea and gossiping around the water cooler?

[Lizzie]

There is no inconvenience, if you already have a gmail account. Gmail offers something called Gmail Plus Addressing. You don't have to "do" anything on your end with your e-mail or google account.

What you do, is you submit a "join a clan forum" request. If your e-mail address is Amos1234@gmail.com and your new character is Malik -

in the spot where you have to enter your e-mail address, simply put in Amos1234+Malik@gmail.com

You'll get your GDB access, your new clan name will be Malik, and any e-mail notifications from the GDB sent to Malik will automatically go to your Amos1234 gmail inbox.

[WarriorPoet]

What if I just... never post n the forum but use it for tracking RPT's? I'm fine with making that a hard rule.

I only have this one gdb account and rarely use the forums at all. Like to keep it that way.

Edit: Tailong's first post gets my vote.

[Kavrick]

The forums are kinda made for discussion, the idea of making all clan forums read only aside from leaders doesn't sound great. Roll-calls with little tid-bits about characters, discussions, and lots of other stuff goes on in clan forums. Especially when I'm playing a tribe, which is far more personal than something like a military group or merchant house, I find it really important to make sure everyone's on the same page and discuss ideas on expanding the lore and general enjoyment of the clan.

[Tailong]

The forums are kinda made for discussion, the idea of making all clan forums read only aside from leaders doesn't sound great. Roll-calls with little tid-bits about characters, discussions, and lots of other stuff goes on in clan forums. Especially when I'm playing a tribe, which is far more personal than something like a military group or merchant house, I find it really important to make sure everyone's on the same page and discuss ideas on expanding the lore and general enjoyment of the clan.

I do too, actually. But, its unnecessary and can all be done IC, and mostly should be. Even RPTs should be announced IC, and discussed IC, roll calls are not important because half your roster doesn't even bother.

[LidlessEye]

The forums are kinda made for discussion, the idea of making all clan forums read only aside from leaders doesn't sound great. Roll-calls with little tid-bits about characters, discussions, and lots of other stuff goes on in clan forums. Especially when I'm playing a tribe, which is far more personal than something like a military group or merchant house, I find it really important to make sure everyone's on the same page and discuss ideas on expanding the lore and general enjoyment of the clan.

I do too, actually. But, its unnecessary and can all be done IC, and mostly should be. Even RPTs should be announced IC, and discussed IC, roll calls are not important because half your roster doesn't even bother.

Not everyone is on the same time zone. Sometimes it may happen that 2 people are around late and 2 are around early, and never end up seeing each other IC

[Dresan]

I have been using alts for clans for years so i have no concern for this change. Though, its been years since i joined a clan so this is not impacting me at all.

That said, I wish staff would provide in game support so that organizing and communication did not need to involve OOC methods, especially for indie groups.

Mail systems have long been coded for muds, an npc that act as a mail system to deliver messages through way with limited ooc allowances could go a long way to avoiding the need for OOC communications. As well as the formation of IC groups for messaging and communication purposes.

Or perhaps apartments could have had IC messaging board only visible to renters. It would be nice to take breaks or vacations without everyone you died because there are no easy ways to ICly communicate with to your IC social circle. People living together should figure out quickly that x,y,z has not been home at all, and is probably dead/stored.

This is probably one of the few games you have to jump through hoops when you want to organize stuff with multiple people outside a clan. The game practically forces people to communicate OOCly and basically opened the door to many of the cliques that plague the game today.

[Dusty Boots]

Mail systems have long been coded for muds, an npc that act as a mail system to deliver messages through way with limited ooc allowences could go a long way to avoiding the need for OOC communications. As well as the formation of IC groups for messaging and communication purposes.

I really wish you could leave messages for people through the way. Like you log in, and you just get notification saying that your character recieved ways while virtual or something. Would be great for stuff like item orders in trading groups, or just general messages for when you can't catch someone who's online.

[Lotion]

I'm glad this sort of best practice is now actually being enforced.

[Recharge]

I don't like change  

[Gimfalisette]

I really wish you could leave messages for people through the way.

When clan leaders log in:

You have one hundred seventy-five unread Way messages.

Your mind is crushed under the weight of Way messages.

[Dusty Boots]

I really wish you could leave messages for people through the way.

When clan leaders log in:

You have one hundred seventy-five unread Way messages.

Your mind is crushed under the weight of Way messages.

[LidlessEye]

There is no inconvenience, if you already have a gmail account. Gmail offers something called Gmail Plus Addressing. You don't have to "do" anything on your end with your e-mail or google account.

What you do, is you submit a "join a clan forum" request. If your e-mail address is Amos1234@gmail.com and your new character is Malik -

in the spot where you have to enter your e-mail address, simply put in Amos1234+Malik@gmail.com

You'll get your GDB access, your new clan name will be Malik, and any e-mail notifications from the GDB sent to Malik will automatically go to your Amos1234 gmail inbox.

So I do not have to make a new GDB account? Just a join clan forum request?

[Dresan]

Your mind is crushed under the weight of Way messages.

While ICly it would be through the way, basically it would just be a system to access anywhere, with messages organized with subject matter, time and messenger. A player could clear all as well, not deal with it, or ignore it, even the messages from angry noble and templar. Alternatively people could be made to travel to  special mail buildings in cities where the would get the messages 'verbally', but again its just accessing the messaging system. The only thing I would add is notification for the sender if the person has read your message or not, that would probably save some time. Again, these systems are in already in many other MUD/Mushes so easy to draw inspiration from them, but it would basically just be everyone's personal IC board.

[val]

To start off, I've used alternate GDB accounts several times to avoid being identified, and I've been extremely upset when someone linked me in on a group DM with PCs of a different clan without my consent. So I can understand the appeal.

Making this no longer optional but still having important clan documentation (not the RPT announcements, but the information itself) being locked behind GDB handles for people who do not want to make multiple handles isn't great.

You can tell someone 'this is not inconvenient' all you want, but you can't tell me how to feel. Well, you can try if you want, but it's not going to change how I feel. It's always been inconvenient to have an alternate GDB handle just to see clan documentation. That's why I didn't do it for every single character. Whether the inconvenience is worth it to the player base as a whole or to you personally is a different question that I'm not qualified to answer.

People discussing the inconvenience aren't mentioning the inconvenience of having to log out and in to multiple GDB accounts, which I was historically bad at and hate. Even having different theme backgrounds has not stopped me from mistakenly posting from different accounts in the past.

This isn't just a Discord problem. Before Discord, there was Facebook, and yes, I had people pester me about who I was playing over Facebook messenger, or attempt to prerecruit me to their family role or clan, or invite me to join some clique group message thing. Regardless of whether I would answer, people who would ask 'are you playing X' even when I was not in a clan were generally correct. I probably have a distinct roleplay style. I know that some other people do, too.


My thoughts:

This will not prevent people from asking me who I'm playing or knowing who I'm playing, even if I don't communicate that information to anyone.

This is inconvenient.

People will still DM specific, direct messages to other people, such as "Amos has told NPC to tell Your Leader that," which is a HUGE advantage. Amos's player might still rope me in to group messages between players that I do not want to be in. Even if you think it's inappropriate, it's not something you can unsee. It's something that happened to me frequently as a leader. And I always felt it was a 'report at my own peril' communication, because Amos's player will know who tattled, taking us back into 'bias' territory.

It would be better to link those clan-specific information into helpfiles that can be accessed specifically by the account that is clanned, like is current done with spell helpfiles for magick characters.

It would be better to leave all communication IC, such as announcements of upcoming RPTs, X needs to talk to Y leader, etc., through tavern-style clan boards that are in IC compounds. Put them at clan-compound entrances for people outside the clan to leave messages that X needs to pick up their golden earrings, or Y wants to talk to X other leader ASAP. These boards already do (or did) exist for some clans, like the Byn. Let leaders be able to delete these messages so that them piling up does not become a staff burden.

It would be nice to have an ability to leave messages PC-to-PC in the game so that players who are occasional, off-peak, out-of-an-official-clan-because-there-are-no-recruiters, or all of the above aren't as horribly kneecapped as they are now. However, this is really just a pipe-dream that would require more coding than the above things that already exist and could just be expanded. Limit it somehow. Make it opt-in. Make it an OOC mailbox to organize times to meet. I don't care, just some ability would be nice.

The clanned player who thinks that just making clan GDBs read-only would make a clan unworkable is a great reference point for how kneecapping the lack of ability to leave IC messages for other characters is for people outside of clans who are trying to organize things, be that indies trying to organize, a hunter trying to meet up with a crafter, or a leader trying to organize a joint meetup with a different clan outside of their usual playtimes.


Although I have used "you" in the general, I'm not trying to call out anyone specific. I would prefer to not argue or debate my thoughts with anyone specifically, so please do not quote or @ me. I just wanted to leave my feedback and ideas in the appropriate place. Thanks!

[Law&Order]

A great, well worded post that I fully agree with.

I left the discord server because it usually feels off topic or hostile to me.  No point, no participation.

I don't post on the gdb, because it rarely produces positive change, unless it's something gigantic or beat you over the head obvious needing to be done.

So if it can't be found ic, newsletter or announcements, I'll elect to miss out.  Because dramatics isn't worth the cost of entertainment.

Just my opinion and preference.  If too much gdb/discord participation is required, perhaps that's a problem in and of itself.

[zealus]

I want to point out we've been asked to delete some posts here because people were accidentally logged into an alt.

To say there is not a singular inconvenience is therefore... not really true.


I guess we shall see if this does what staff hopes it does. I hope it does not take away any burden of not playing in an OOC unpleasant matter, just because people don't know who you are. I hope both sides get addressed.

[Halaster]

We're not kidding ourselves, this isn't a complete solution to OOC issues.  It's one thing we can do to help try to cut down on some OOC 'bad stuff'.  We've had more than one instance of players telling us someone reached out to them about their characters in another venue that isn't our game (Facebook, DM's, etc).  The GDB is one of the few mediums we do have some measure of control over, so essentially we're doing what we can where we can.

The idea is simple:  it's one less place, and one less way, someone can find out who plays who.

Most staff don't LIKE this idea, but we see it as a necessary evil that we can try.  And as Usiku said, if it's a disaster, we'll reverse it.

[Gimfalisette]

a lot of stuff I agree with

I don't feel exactly the same as val nor agree on everything, BUT the best solution would be for GDB clan subforums to be completely unnecessary, because their functionality would instead be replaced in game. Some clans did used to have rumor boards of their own, but I know the rumor board code is extremely clunky. I don't know what the coded solutions would be but there are many players who want to get ALL their information in game--I'm not of that feeling myself but I support them on it.

[creeper386]

Just returned from a long break. Truthfully if this is required it is just going to stop me from joining clan boards. I rarely post in clan boards and even before seeing this planned on not even posting checkins or anything, just using it to read for RPTs and meetups and such.

I am wondering if this is the route that would go, if they best plan isn't to just roll a custom message board or wrap this one if it has suitable APIs to have one account just display current character name instead of account in Clanned sections. This way it's all just one account, and the change to be character specific is forced.

[Veselka]

It seems to be an inelegant solution to a problem we (as players) have created for ourselves.

If we weren't gossips or trying to figure out who plays who, or DM people for favors, or ask about IC events, or get a leg up/edge and try to win an unwinnable game, Staff probably wouldn't have to do something like this or have to worry about it.

But here we are.

Staff didn't do anything. We did.

[Inky]

I wouldn't frame it that way.

I think it's just a natural consequence of creating a game that is somehow supposed to be about rp but also hardcore competitive pvp at the same time. And the fact that you can spend inordinate amounts of time on a character to lose it on the whim of another character for no real reason.

It shouldn't be surprising that these sorts of information trading cliques form at all.

[mansa]

The clam forums serve multi purposes:

a) clam documents

b) out-of-character notifications to clam members about your characters involvement (or lack there of)

c) clarification questions between the clam documents, staff involvement, and 'how to do the role and how others have done the role in the past'

d) IC information sharing to clam members when playtimes don't meet up.


There's other reasons why players post to clam forums.. and some of the stated reasons can be replaced with an IC board, but not all of those reasons.

I think adding more IC boards is a good addition to clams about sharing IC information - but I don't think it works well for out-of-character details.