Re: Requiring alts for Clan Boards

[Tuannon]

Personally, I think this step is fairly long overdue given the change in playstyle and so on some of the longer term players will employ if they know who is playing who. Both for the positive and the negative, also I include myself in that 'some'.

Thank you for pushing this through, Usiku.

I think a standard of just naming your account after the character or their rank is perfection.

[Agent_137]

This is a good time to do it with all the new players.

I was thinking it'd be hard to use all these alts if you were trying to communicate play times with messages, but those can just go to your email, and even board notifications can be sent to your email. And even if you don't have gmail and its nice + trick, you can just forward your alt emails to your main.

Setting up one for even indy characters seems advantageous. It will make it much easier to just say "hey, yes, I will make/buy X for/from you, message me on the gdb at My-PC-Name if you can't find me in a few RL days so we can setup a time."

I don't really want to be so flippant with my main gdb account, but if it's specific to my PC, who cares?


This is my only worry:

Thank you for signing up. The admin must approve your registration before you may begin to use your account, you will receive an email shortly advising you of the admins decision.

But I guess if the name matches a current PC, it's a pretty easy approve.

[zealus]

This is my only worry:

Thank you for signing up. The admin must approve your registration before you may begin to use your account, you will receive an email shortly advising you of the admins decision.

But I guess if the name matches a current PC, it's a pretty easy approve.

As long as you use a legit email adress, and don't sound like a russian spambot, we're pretty quick with this

[Tailong]

Well, I am opposed.

Why not just allow clan leaders ONLY to post for RPTs and make everything read only?

I will not make another account, and if I join a clan, everything will just have to be told to me ICly, as it should anyway. I'm not making an account for every clanned PC I make, if I ever make another clanned PC,  just cause people want to break rules.

I am probably alone in this stance.

[eska]

I am probably alone in this stance.

You are not.

I don't like to be forced to create a new account whenever I make a new PC. Why not let people decide whether they create a new account or use their current ones?

Actually I don't mind if people plot against me or not.

[altaccount]

I love it. I get to be so mysterious and interesting.

[Patuk]

1. Nobody who OOCly conspires needs to do so via the GDB. They'd be stupid to, in fact. They're just gonna have cozy Discord groups that are far more suitable for this kind of thing

2. This is extremely tedious and is just going to have people not bother with clan GDB's at all

3. I am deeply, deeply sceptical of the stated reason for this change and am genuinely unimpressed of some second-order effects this change will no doubt have.

[Valkyrja]

1. Nobody who OOCly conspires needs to do so via the GDB. They'd be stupid to, in fact. They're just gonna have cozy Discord groups that are far more suitable for this kind of thing

2. This is extremely tedious and is just going to have people not bother with clan GDB's at all

3. I am deeply, deeply sceptical of the stated reason for this change and am genuinely unimpressed of some second-order effects this change will no doubt have.

1. This isn't to limit or change how people break the rules. It's to protect the players who would be targeted by rulebreakers.

2. Sorry.

3. Tell me more?

[Tailong]

1. This isn't to limit or change how people break the rules. It's to protect the players who would be targeted by rulebreakers.

This absolutely will not change someone who is intent on causing harm and breaking rules, you are right. It just makes it not worth while for people like me to join in and enjoy interacting on the clan GDBs because I am being forced to do something I do not wish to do. I am perfectly capable of protecting myself.

You do realize that as small as this community actually is, we don't need to join a clan to figure out who plays who, right? Each of us have tells, whether it be a writing style or character descriptions, or roles? I am sure there are a few of you out there, that have been playing together for years now and immediately pick each other out.

I'm not in the discord, and now I'm not going to be in any clan GDBs after my current character. People talk on the discord, let things slip, and people figure things out without needing the GDB clan forums. I don't think enforcing this is a good change, because the majority of your player base already don't bother to engage at all except ICly.

[Delusion]

This seems like a way to plaster over a symptom of bigger underlying problems relating to the behavior of, I assume, a few players.

One major issue is that the game maintains its own Discord server and it was set up without any apparent revision of game rules. I don't use it, mostly because I was barely playing the game when it was introduced and haven't yet bothered with it. That was set up by the game staff and it is a given that people in Discord groups will DM each other and chat. Personally, I think the idea of trying to restrict out-of-game communication about a fundamentally social hobby is an outdated policy that needs serious revision. Most RP games bar using information obtained out of game, then act on it when it happens. However, if Armageddon's staff are set on the current policy, which I assume they are, then having the Discord server is self-sabotaging. In fact, having a game Discord, for the same game where people could barely mention jcarter's forum ten years back, without the policies having changed, is very strange to me.

That's not the real problem though. The problem is that the game still has the sorts of people who think it's okay to send inappropriate messages to other players. I would be far more comfortable if I had come along and read an announcement that there had been bans, which is the only proper action if a community has such a person in it. This comes across as trying to work around problematic people instead of simply banning them. If they weren't still playing, then there would be no need for this new rule. As it stands, this announcement is discomfitting. There is no indication of a ban, but instead that all players are required to adapt to accommodate problematic people.

I really encourage staff to rethink their approach. If someone is sending inappropriate messages to people, it's not the job of any game's staff to try to accommodate or therapize that person. We are all adults here. You just don't need to. Underlying this, even if subconsciously, staff of some games sometimes worry that they will lose players if they come across as ban-happy. The reality is that removing problem players from any game community actually makes that community larger and healthier.

[Valkyrja]

It just makes it not worth while for people like me to join in and enjoy interacting on the clan GDBs because I am being forced to do something I do not wish to do. I am perfectly capable of protecting myself.

I'm sorry you're inconvenienced.

You do realize that as small as this community actually is, we don't need to join a clan to figure out who plays who, right? Each of us have tells, whether it be a writing style or character descriptions, or roles? I am sure there are a few of you out there, that have been playing together for years now and immediately pick each other out.

I'm not in the discord, and now I'm not going to be in any clan GDBs after my current character. People talk on the discord, let things slip, and people figure things out without needing the GDB clan forums. I don't think enforcing this is a good change, because the majority of your player base already don't bother to engage at all except ICly.

Thank you for your feedback.

[Tailong]

It just makes it not worth while for people like me to join in and enjoy interacting on the clan GDBs because I am being forced to do something I do not wish to do. I am perfectly capable of protecting myself.

I'm sorry you're inconvenienced.

You do realize that as small as this community actually is, we don't need to join a clan to figure out who plays who, right? Each of us have tells, whether it be a writing style or character descriptions, or roles? I am sure there are a few of you out there, that have been playing together for years now and immediately pick each other out.

I'm not in the discord, and now I'm not going to be in any clan GDBs after my current character. People talk on the discord, let things slip, and people figure things out without needing the GDB clan forums. I don't think enforcing this is a good change, because the majority of your player base already don't bother to engage at all except ICly.

Thank you for your feedback.

I'd rather you not comment if you are not going to be constructive to the issue at hand. This was rude, and condescending to your player's opinions. Way to go.

[LidlessEye]

1. Nobody who OOCly conspires needs to do so via the GDB. They'd be stupid to, in fact. They're just gonna have cozy Discord groups that are far more suitable for this kind of thing

2. This is extremely tedious and is just going to have people not bother with clan GDB's at all

3. I am deeply, deeply sceptical of the stated reason for this change and am genuinely unimpressed of some second-order effects this change will no doubt have.

Patuk said exactly what I wanted to say.

[Patuk]

3. Tell me more?

I asked a mod if I should. They told me I probably shouldn't. So it goes. You're welcome to reach out in other venues if you want to talk things out.

[Kavrick]

I'm very 50/50 on this, one one hand, I have actually been targeted oocly just because someone didn't like me. This has varied from noticing an ic character completely changes their attitude towards me once they join a clan forum I was in or on another occassion, someone spreading rumours that my character died from STDs. The latter I know was oocly motivated because this was in a desert elf tribe and the person made their character after I had died and the idea of talking badly about another member of your tribe for no reason is very much against the docs.

But also, it should really be a choice, if this is to protect users. I have an alt account I use pretty much only ever for forum stuff, the idea of making a new account every time sounds a little tedious. And as Patuk said, people who oocly collude and meta-game will always do it. Ooc discussion rules have always been a weird thing in this game, I've played games where ooc is discussion is open but you're not allowed to spread spoilers or meta-game, funnily enough it actually tends to become easier to catch people who metagame in those situations because people just find out and report it.

[LidlessEye]

1. Nobody who OOCly conspires needs to do so via the GDB. They'd be stupid to, in fact. They're just gonna have cozy Discord groups that are far more suitable for this kind of thing

2. This is extremely tedious and is just going to have people not bother with clan GDB's at all

3. I am deeply, deeply sceptical of the stated reason for this change and am genuinely unimpressed of some second-order effects this change will no doubt have.

1. This isn't to limit or change how people break the rules. It's to protect the players who would be targeted by rulebreakers.

2. Sorry.

3. Tell me more?

To answer to Valkryja

1) Players who don't want to be contacted, or care to be anonymous, already do and have clan alts, so forgive me if I'm a touch skeptical of the reasoning.

2) How long is it going to take to approve a new gdb account? And how much longer to add said gdb account to the respective forum? Especially now, given the increased numbers of players?

3) No comment I do not know what was implied here.

[altaccount]

2) How long is it going to take to approve a new gdb account? And how much longer to add said gdb account to the respective forum? Especially now, given the increased numbers of players?

It took me 5-10 min to get squared away. I made a new account and added that to the clan forum request. If it hadn't been approved prior I would assume it would've been approved before being added to clan.

[eska]

1. This isn't to limit or change how people break the rules. It's to protect the players who would be targeted by rulebreakers.

I understand that there are players who would be targeted by rulebreakers. Instead of making the player who would feel targeted to be able use different GDB handles whenever they want, you force everyone to use a new GDB handle to keep the anonymity in clan boards. That's a very bright move and decision to keep people away from clan boards.
What will you do next time, force every player to join the clan boards, if they want to continue playing in the clan?

[altaccount]

I have a somewhat different perspective on why I like this change.

I've been playing the game for 20 years. Through interactions here, on IRC, AIM, and now on Discord.. there are absolutely 10000000000000% players that I've developed a serious distaste for. I'm not interested in targeting them or whatever the fuck else, but it has definitely colored the way that I can perceive or interact with PCs on a number of levels. It isn't intentional and it's something that I'd rather not deal with, but it's there and it happens and it sucks for everyone involved when I have this nagging feeling that seeps into game play.

So.. great. Anonymize fellow players. I honestly love it and I love the idea of my biases being put aside to create a better experience for myself and the players around me.

I know for certain that I'm not the only person that experiences this sort of issue.

[eska]

On the other hand, I don't care about who's playing who and who thinks what about me. I'm just enjoying my own game. Looks like there are people feeling like me as well.

[Inky]

Personally I wish this rule was already in effect and that I didn't make the mistake of using an old accounts in one of my clans already.

[Markku]

Hi. 

A month and a half ago, I would have been one of the players arguing against this change.  I loved the community much more than the game at this stage in my life, and some of my best buds in this community came from meeting on clan boards.

and

My only "bad" experiences on staff over the last month were watching Usiku and Halaster responding to players where were being targeted by others in ways that we can't track or verify the source of.  Going off guesses and assumptions without verification could very well lead to the wrong people being banned.


tldr:
A. I hate this policy, and
B. I believe this is absolutely the right decision.

[Kismetic]

I'm not too fussed about it, but does this mean I need to change now?  Cat's already out of the bag, for me.  I haven't used this handle for maybe ten plus years as a GDB clan handle, thought it would be fine.

[Gaare]

Common sense is never common. There are a lot of rules we obey in everything we play/do. This is not a big deal at all. It's a very small thing.

I'd gladly change it, if it would increase even one of fellow players gaming experience.

PS. There has always been players use different GDB names. I thought doing it many times, but I was just lazy.

[Usiku]

I would be far more comfortable if I had come along and read an announcement that there had been bans, which is the only proper action if a community has such a person in it...I really encourage staff to rethink their approach. If someone is sending inappropriate messages to people, it's not the job of any game's staff to try to accommodate or therapize that person.

You say that like we know who these people are. Trust me, if we knew, I wouldn't hesitate to ban them, and the moment we find out, they will be banned.

But it's not just about that extreme. It's about the variety of consequences that arise when players know who's playing who. That is demonstrated by the plenty of people are thankful and appreciative for this change just because of how it impacts their day to day play, and we're trialing it to see how it goes. If it turns out to be a disaster, we'll adjust. But somewhere along the way, it became increasingly common for people to stop bothering with alts, whereas it used to be the standard, if not enforced, approach.

[Usiku]

I'm not too fussed about it, but does this mean I need to change now?  Cat's already out of the bag, for me.  I haven't used this handle for maybe ten plus years as a GDB clan handle, thought it would be fine.

You don't need to change your account for current PC in your current clan, no. Like you say, cat is out of the bag. Some people are because they want to, and that's up to them.

[Twilight]

I think this will help improve the integrity of game play within the game itself, through preventing both intentional and unconscious bias.  To me it is not about protecting a player.  It is about protecting all the players impacted by changes in game play brought about by OOC factors. Though it is an inconvenience to me personally, I recognize the benefit to the game itself.

[Veselka]

I think this will help improve the integrity of game play within the game itself, through preventing both intentional and unconscious bias.  To me it is not about protecting a player.  It is about protecting all the players impacted by changes in game play brought about by OOC factors. Though it is an inconvenience to me personally, I recognize the benefit to the game itself.

I agree. I think something not mentioned here, is how you are tied to past long-lived PCs. So if I played a long-lived Byn Sergeant, and I join the Byn on the same handle (forgetting which handle I used for that Sergeant), I am immediately tied to that PC and all the biases that brings for other people (love or hate).

There are also biases about old accounts; if they are an old player, they must be high karma, and therefore must be playing a secret Magicker.

There's a bevy of conscious and unconscious bias that comes behind tying the Player to the Character. I applaud Staff for taking the steps to counteract these biases, help mitigate speculation and OOC armchair commander play both here, on the discord, and on the Jcarter Forums, and help protect Players' identities from being tied in with their PCs.

It's a game people.

While this is inconvenient (?) I think the pro's outweigh the con's. Have some empathy for your local leadership role. Staff have taken the steps towards 'Keeping IC Events/Punishments/Actions IC' and not tying OOC methods of communication/speculation (requests, wishing down) with players. Can't Players police themselves and do the same? Or can we just not help ourselves in spilling tea and gossiping around the water cooler?

[Lizzie]

There is no inconvenience, if you already have a gmail account. Gmail offers something called Gmail Plus Addressing. You don't have to "do" anything on your end with your e-mail or google account.

What you do, is you submit a "join a clan forum" request. If your e-mail address is Amos1234@gmail.com and your new character is Malik -

in the spot where you have to enter your e-mail address, simply put in Amos1234+Malik@gmail.com

You'll get your GDB access, your new clan name will be Malik, and any e-mail notifications from the GDB sent to Malik will automatically go to your Amos1234 gmail inbox.

[WarriorPoet]

What if I just... never post n the forum but use it for tracking RPT's? I'm fine with making that a hard rule.

I only have this one gdb account and rarely use the forums at all. Like to keep it that way.

Edit: Tailong's first post gets my vote.

[Kavrick]

The forums are kinda made for discussion, the idea of making all clan forums read only aside from leaders doesn't sound great. Roll-calls with little tid-bits about characters, discussions, and lots of other stuff goes on in clan forums. Especially when I'm playing a tribe, which is far more personal than something like a military group or merchant house, I find it really important to make sure everyone's on the same page and discuss ideas on expanding the lore and general enjoyment of the clan.

[Tailong]

The forums are kinda made for discussion, the idea of making all clan forums read only aside from leaders doesn't sound great. Roll-calls with little tid-bits about characters, discussions, and lots of other stuff goes on in clan forums. Especially when I'm playing a tribe, which is far more personal than something like a military group or merchant house, I find it really important to make sure everyone's on the same page and discuss ideas on expanding the lore and general enjoyment of the clan.

I do too, actually. But, its unnecessary and can all be done IC, and mostly should be. Even RPTs should be announced IC, and discussed IC, roll calls are not important because half your roster doesn't even bother.

[LidlessEye]

The forums are kinda made for discussion, the idea of making all clan forums read only aside from leaders doesn't sound great. Roll-calls with little tid-bits about characters, discussions, and lots of other stuff goes on in clan forums. Especially when I'm playing a tribe, which is far more personal than something like a military group or merchant house, I find it really important to make sure everyone's on the same page and discuss ideas on expanding the lore and general enjoyment of the clan.

I do too, actually. But, its unnecessary and can all be done IC, and mostly should be. Even RPTs should be announced IC, and discussed IC, roll calls are not important because half your roster doesn't even bother.

Not everyone is on the same time zone. Sometimes it may happen that 2 people are around late and 2 are around early, and never end up seeing each other IC

[Dresan]

I have been using alts for clans for years so i have no concern for this change. Though, its been years since i joined a clan so this is not impacting me at all.

That said, I wish staff would provide in game support so that organizing and communication did not need to involve OOC methods, especially for indie groups.

Mail systems have long been coded for muds, an npc that act as a mail system to deliver messages through way with limited ooc allowances could go a long way to avoiding the need for OOC communications. As well as the formation of IC groups for messaging and communication purposes.

Or perhaps apartments could have had IC messaging board only visible to renters. It would be nice to take breaks or vacations without everyone you died because there are no easy ways to ICly communicate with to your IC social circle. People living together should figure out quickly that x,y,z has not been home at all, and is probably dead/stored.

This is probably one of the few games you have to jump through hoops when you want to organize stuff with multiple people outside a clan. The game practically forces people to communicate OOCly and basically opened the door to many of the cliques that plague the game today.

[Dusty Boots]

Mail systems have long been coded for muds, an npc that act as a mail system to deliver messages through way with limited ooc allowences could go a long way to avoiding the need for OOC communications. As well as the formation of IC groups for messaging and communication purposes.

I really wish you could leave messages for people through the way. Like you log in, and you just get notification saying that your character recieved ways while virtual or something. Would be great for stuff like item orders in trading groups, or just general messages for when you can't catch someone who's online.

[Lotion]

I'm glad this sort of best practice is now actually being enforced.

[Recharge]

I don't like change  

[Gimfalisette]

I really wish you could leave messages for people through the way.

When clan leaders log in:

You have one hundred seventy-five unread Way messages.

Your mind is crushed under the weight of Way messages.

[Dusty Boots]

I really wish you could leave messages for people through the way.

When clan leaders log in:

You have one hundred seventy-five unread Way messages.

Your mind is crushed under the weight of Way messages.

[LidlessEye]

There is no inconvenience, if you already have a gmail account. Gmail offers something called Gmail Plus Addressing. You don't have to "do" anything on your end with your e-mail or google account.

What you do, is you submit a "join a clan forum" request. If your e-mail address is Amos1234@gmail.com and your new character is Malik -

in the spot where you have to enter your e-mail address, simply put in Amos1234+Malik@gmail.com

You'll get your GDB access, your new clan name will be Malik, and any e-mail notifications from the GDB sent to Malik will automatically go to your Amos1234 gmail inbox.

So I do not have to make a new GDB account? Just a join clan forum request?

[Dresan]

Your mind is crushed under the weight of Way messages.

While ICly it would be through the way, basically it would just be a system to access anywhere, with messages organized with subject matter, time and messenger. A player could clear all as well, not deal with it, or ignore it, even the messages from angry noble and templar. Alternatively people could be made to travel to  special mail buildings in cities where the would get the messages 'verbally', but again its just accessing the messaging system. The only thing I would add is notification for the sender if the person has read your message or not, that would probably save some time. Again, these systems are in already in many other MUD/Mushes so easy to draw inspiration from them, but it would basically just be everyone's personal IC board.

[val]

To start off, I've used alternate GDB accounts several times to avoid being identified, and I've been extremely upset when someone linked me in on a group DM with PCs of a different clan without my consent. So I can understand the appeal.

Making this no longer optional but still having important clan documentation (not the RPT announcements, but the information itself) being locked behind GDB handles for people who do not want to make multiple handles isn't great.

You can tell someone 'this is not inconvenient' all you want, but you can't tell me how to feel. Well, you can try if you want, but it's not going to change how I feel. It's always been inconvenient to have an alternate GDB handle just to see clan documentation. That's why I didn't do it for every single character. Whether the inconvenience is worth it to the player base as a whole or to you personally is a different question that I'm not qualified to answer.

People discussing the inconvenience aren't mentioning the inconvenience of having to log out and in to multiple GDB accounts, which I was historically bad at and hate. Even having different theme backgrounds has not stopped me from mistakenly posting from different accounts in the past.

This isn't just a Discord problem. Before Discord, there was Facebook, and yes, I had people pester me about who I was playing over Facebook messenger, or attempt to prerecruit me to their family role or clan, or invite me to join some clique group message thing. Regardless of whether I would answer, people who would ask 'are you playing X' even when I was not in a clan were generally correct. I probably have a distinct roleplay style. I know that some other people do, too.


My thoughts:

This will not prevent people from asking me who I'm playing or knowing who I'm playing, even if I don't communicate that information to anyone.

This is inconvenient.

People will still DM specific, direct messages to other people, such as "Amos has told NPC to tell Your Leader that," which is a HUGE advantage. Amos's player might still rope me in to group messages between players that I do not want to be in. Even if you think it's inappropriate, it's not something you can unsee. It's something that happened to me frequently as a leader. And I always felt it was a 'report at my own peril' communication, because Amos's player will know who tattled, taking us back into 'bias' territory.

It would be better to link those clan-specific information into helpfiles that can be accessed specifically by the account that is clanned, like is current done with spell helpfiles for magick characters.

It would be better to leave all communication IC, such as announcements of upcoming RPTs, X needs to talk to Y leader, etc., through tavern-style clan boards that are in IC compounds. Put them at clan-compound entrances for people outside the clan to leave messages that X needs to pick up their golden earrings, or Y wants to talk to X other leader ASAP. These boards already do (or did) exist for some clans, like the Byn. Let leaders be able to delete these messages so that them piling up does not become a staff burden.

It would be nice to have an ability to leave messages PC-to-PC in the game so that players who are occasional, off-peak, out-of-an-official-clan-because-there-are-no-recruiters, or all of the above aren't as horribly kneecapped as they are now. However, this is really just a pipe-dream that would require more coding than the above things that already exist and could just be expanded. Limit it somehow. Make it opt-in. Make it an OOC mailbox to organize times to meet. I don't care, just some ability would be nice.

The clanned player who thinks that just making clan GDBs read-only would make a clan unworkable is a great reference point for how kneecapping the lack of ability to leave IC messages for other characters is for people outside of clans who are trying to organize things, be that indies trying to organize, a hunter trying to meet up with a crafter, or a leader trying to organize a joint meetup with a different clan outside of their usual playtimes.


Although I have used "you" in the general, I'm not trying to call out anyone specific. I would prefer to not argue or debate my thoughts with anyone specifically, so please do not quote or @ me. I just wanted to leave my feedback and ideas in the appropriate place. Thanks!

[Law&Order]

A great, well worded post that I fully agree with.

I left the discord server because it usually feels off topic or hostile to me.  No point, no participation.

I don't post on the gdb, because it rarely produces positive change, unless it's something gigantic or beat you over the head obvious needing to be done.

So if it can't be found ic, newsletter or announcements, I'll elect to miss out.  Because dramatics isn't worth the cost of entertainment.

Just my opinion and preference.  If too much gdb/discord participation is required, perhaps that's a problem in and of itself.

[zealus]

I want to point out we've been asked to delete some posts here because people were accidentally logged into an alt.

To say there is not a singular inconvenience is therefore... not really true.


I guess we shall see if this does what staff hopes it does. I hope it does not take away any burden of not playing in an OOC unpleasant matter, just because people don't know who you are. I hope both sides get addressed.

[Halaster]

We're not kidding ourselves, this isn't a complete solution to OOC issues.  It's one thing we can do to help try to cut down on some OOC 'bad stuff'.  We've had more than one instance of players telling us someone reached out to them about their characters in another venue that isn't our game (Facebook, DM's, etc).  The GDB is one of the few mediums we do have some measure of control over, so essentially we're doing what we can where we can.

The idea is simple:  it's one less place, and one less way, someone can find out who plays who.

Most staff don't LIKE this idea, but we see it as a necessary evil that we can try.  And as Usiku said, if it's a disaster, we'll reverse it.

[Gimfalisette]

a lot of stuff I agree with

I don't feel exactly the same as val nor agree on everything, BUT the best solution would be for GDB clan subforums to be completely unnecessary, because their functionality would instead be replaced in game. Some clans did used to have rumor boards of their own, but I know the rumor board code is extremely clunky. I don't know what the coded solutions would be but there are many players who want to get ALL their information in game--I'm not of that feeling myself but I support them on it.

[creeper386]

Just returned from a long break. Truthfully if this is required it is just going to stop me from joining clan boards. I rarely post in clan boards and even before seeing this planned on not even posting checkins or anything, just using it to read for RPTs and meetups and such.

I am wondering if this is the route that would go, if they best plan isn't to just roll a custom message board or wrap this one if it has suitable APIs to have one account just display current character name instead of account in Clanned sections. This way it's all just one account, and the change to be character specific is forced.

[Veselka]

It seems to be an inelegant solution to a problem we (as players) have created for ourselves.

If we weren't gossips or trying to figure out who plays who, or DM people for favors, or ask about IC events, or get a leg up/edge and try to win an unwinnable game, Staff probably wouldn't have to do something like this or have to worry about it.

But here we are.

Staff didn't do anything. We did.

[Inky]

I wouldn't frame it that way.

I think it's just a natural consequence of creating a game that is somehow supposed to be about rp but also hardcore competitive pvp at the same time. And the fact that you can spend inordinate amounts of time on a character to lose it on the whim of another character for no real reason.

It shouldn't be surprising that these sorts of information trading cliques form at all.

[mansa]

The clam forums serve multi purposes:

a) clam documents

b) out-of-character notifications to clam members about your characters involvement (or lack there of)

c) clarification questions between the clam documents, staff involvement, and 'how to do the role and how others have done the role in the past'

d) IC information sharing to clam members when playtimes don't meet up.


There's other reasons why players post to clam forums.. and some of the stated reasons can be replaced with an IC board, but not all of those reasons.

I think adding more IC boards is a good addition to clams about sharing IC information - but I don't think it works well for out-of-character details.

[Gimfalisette]

a) clam documents

b) out-of-character notifications to clam members about your characters involvement (or lack there of)

c) clarification questions between the clam documents, staff involvement, and 'how to do the role and how others have done the role in the past'

d) IC information sharing to clam members when playtimes don't meet up.

IC boards could do this for the above:

- Clan (clam lmao) documents: Links to these documents on the website. Give clan leaders the power to create documents as well and put them on the website for their clans. For example when I was playing an AoD Sgt I wrote a "how not to abuse crim code and/or die to it yourself" post. Those kinds of things can just be turned into persistent documents for the clan if players were empowered and trusted.

- OOC notifications to players about your playtimes/absences: Put on the rumor board as an OOC post. That seems fine to me, just put an "OOC" in the title so everyone's clear.

- Clarifications about the role: I'm not really sure what this means, I feel like this is part of the clan documents thing. It could also go on the website as a joint staff/leader effort.

- IC information sharing: 100% able to be accomplished through a clan rumor board.

[Agent_137]

You already need to get board access to read the clan docs before making a tribal PC, hopefully you don't have to create an alt just to read them.

I imagine an exception to making an alt could be allowed as long as you aren't posting in the clan gdb, just reading.

Many clans also have separate subform for docs, but access can't be given exclusively to it because gdb admins have not created specific roles for them yet. Fix that and you don't need to mix documentation access with posting at all.

Documentation organization, maintenance, and security-management isn't really fun but it is important as long as we want to keep it secret.

[Nao]

There's also polls for RPT times and such on the clan boards. I don't see IC means replacing them anytime soon.

[Gimfalisette]

There's also polls for RPT times and such on the clan boards. I don't see IC means replacing them anytime soon.

Ehhhh this feels unnecessary to me. A clan leader could just look at clannies' general posted availability, check their own schedule, and check ICly with the two other clannies who are actually required for the RPT. In my experience as a leader, trying to poll clannies doesn't clarify anything, it's just extra paperwork. Make it fun and schedule it at a reasonable time and they'll show up for it.

[WarriorPoet]

There's also polls for RPT times and such on the clan boards. I don't see IC means replacing them anytime soon.

Autoclave the GDB and do it all in the InGame clan boards.

[Nao]

There's also polls for RPT times and such on the clan boards. I don't see IC means replacing them anytime soon.

Ehhhh this feels unnecessary to me. A clan leader could just look at clannies' general posted availability, check their own schedule, and check ICly with the two other clannies who are actually required for the RPT. In my experience as a leader, trying to poll clannies doesn't clarify anything, it's just extra paperwork. Make it fun and schedule it at a reasonable time and they'll show up for it.

What you think is a reasonable time may not be a reasonable time for the majority of your minions, or at least far from optimal. There's 20+ active PCs in the Byn right now, the polling option is frequently being used, and it's much easier to use it than go through 20+ posts about playtimes which are often vague, and will frequently not even apply on that particular day.

[Dresan]

A clan leader could just look at clannies' general posted availability

This could be made an IC command. Like change objective command but where people can post their time that allows leaders the ability to get a list of clan member and their posted availability in game. It may also be more convenient then reviewing a bunch of posts.

I would also add the ability for clan leaders to be  to use an NPC to automate a psi message to all awake clan members, 'All those who are not on wall duty, sergeant is calling a meeting at the mess hall. We got work, time to haul ass'.

A messaging system where the messages are delivered verbally by NPC, could be implemented in a building with cities/towns, the room just divided with booths, preventing message spam but not allowing too much privacy. This way people can listen to the messages and should assume someone is always listening, this will force people to get to the point, preferring meet ups, without too much unnecessary OOC in their messaging. 

None of this has to be implemented all at once but moving in this direction would help wean the community out of the need for OOC communications to organize the gameplay.

[eska]

If an RPT is outside my shared playtimes and I have the time for it, I could just show up for that RPT.

[Lizzie]

Handling it all IC when you have multiple clannies is just - not efficient, at all.

Roll calls are where people post their USUAL availability.  "Absent" threads are when people need to not be available when they usually would be.  Polls are for when clannies are technically available, but have preferences for longer (or even shorter) events. And then the unexpected comes up and someone who is normally /not/ available, becomes available. If they're not asked IC because they're not expected, then they might miss out. Posting on the GBD in their clan forum ensures that everyone in the clan has access to the OOC scheduling information and input.

If you have 10 clannies, trying to get all that information into an IC dialogue would take longer than the RPT itself.

[AdamBlue]

Don't like it whatsoever. Think should be reverted.

[Athapaxis]

For a long time I just joined the board for the clan but never posted.   Most have roll-calls now, which honestly I kind of don't like.   I'd rather meet people in game and have that be my only interaction with them.

My preference would be to just be able to join the clan board to get info and choose if you want an alt.  If you get targeted because you don't use one, then that's a consequence you choose to risk because you didn't feel like making an alt.   Am I missing something?

[talos]

...If you get targeted because you don't use one, then that's a consequence you choose to risk because you didn't feel like making an alt.

This is a new policy we are implementing because we want to reduce some risks to the players in enjoying our game.

As Usiku said:

...but given some of the concerning things we've heard about going on outside of the game, we're going to start trialing a new approach.

...

In-Game behavior and decisions should not be influenced by who is playing a PC.

It's against the rules to discuss In-Game events and happenings outside of the game, including sharing who you're playing, discussing your character's activities, or conspiring, planning and plotting outside of the game.

Players who engage in this kind of Out-Of-Character cheating aren't just spoiling the game for others, they're spoiling it for themselves too.

[flurry]

This new approach could help, though I wonder about its long-term prospects. Frankly, it makes me less inclined to play in clans, though I'm already pretty disinclined as it is for a multitude of reasons.

Has any consideration been given to unambiguously forbidding the practice of divulging who is playing which character? The language about this under rules suggests this is "discouraged" which is also the word applied to ooc coordination. Interestingly, these are the only two places where the word "discouraged" is used in the rules document. Yes, there is some clarifying text there too, but I think revising these rules might be helpful.

[Lizzie]

This new approach could help, though I wonder about its long-term prospects. Frankly, it makes me less inclined to play in clans, though I'm already pretty disinclined as it is for a multitude of reasons.

Has any consideration been given to unambiguously forbidding the practice of divulging who is playing which character? The language about this under rules suggests this is "discouraged" which is also the word applied to ooc coordination. Interestingly, these are the only two places where the word "discouraged" is used in the rules document. Yes, there is some clarifying text there too, but I think revising these rules might be helpful.

You can't "forbid" something that you can't enforce. They don't own Discord, or e-mails, or other forums, or facebook or twitter or whatever else. They're not police detectives, and it's not their job to play cop on their playerbase.  The only thing they have control over is that which they own. And that's the game, the Arm website, the GDB, and the Armageddon discord channel itself. They don't even have control over DMs in discord. They can forbid the spreading of this information on those specific things, but that's not where the things are being spread. And so - they discourage it. And they make it harder for people to play the "who's who" game.

[Kankfly]

Rather than preventing people from doing this, shouldn't we be encouraging people to seperate OOC from IC? I'm assuming that's what the RP advanced karma point is, including the 'player feedback'.

If staff and players can encourage and offer advices on how to improve one's play instead of adding new hurdles to discourage bad play, I think the game would improve.

[Jarvis]

If I have to make an account everytime I join a new clan I will fucking perish

[Kavrick]

I do too, actually. But, its unnecessary and can all be done IC, and mostly should be. Even RPTs should be announced IC, and discussed IC, roll calls are not important because half your roster doesn't even bother.

Not all can be done IC. Sometimes you need to discuss things that are slightly meta (as in ooc, like talking about changing history and expanding lore, not metagaming) and cannot be done in an IC manner, this is far more related to tribes than other groups, but it's certainly came up a lot for me.

Also, as someone who's off-peak, getting everyone together all at once is not always possible, sometimes it's just nice to have a forum where you can put up a question and have your clan-mates respond. I really feel like there's little reason to completely stomp out this option when it's convenient and practical.

[burble]

Is it possible to make everyone's posts on a clan board anonymous?

People could always write something like "So-n-So the ranger:" in their posts.

Consider the future players, not just the people today who are harboring grudges from days past.
No effort is easier than some effort.

[dumbstruck]

This mean that when posting with the new clan alt that's not your main account that you can now post current character art in the character art thread since that account shouldn't ever reveal who you actually are so it shouldn't really be really be breaching anything unless you're like posting a picture of a thryzn that never visits Allanak or something?

[Tuannon]

If I was worried about that stuff I'd just send the picture to Valkyrja and make her post it.

[flurry]

You can't "forbid" something that you can't enforce. They don't own Discord, or e-mails, or other forums, or facebook or twitter or whatever else. They're not police detectives, and it's not their job to play cop on their playerbase.  The only thing they have control over is that which they own. And that's the game, the Arm website, the GDB, and the Armageddon discord channel itself. They don't even have control over DMs in discord. They can forbid the spreading of this information on those specific things, but that's not where the things are being spread. And so - they discourage it. And they make it harder for people to play the "who's who" game.

Totally disagree. I've seen it done very effectively elsewhere. My point was that a rules document is a communication of expectations. It's an expression of core values. I'm only suggesting some reflection on what the rules document says to our players, particularly our new players, as long as we're trying to address the problems brought on by misuse of OOC info. That's my view; I have no interest in continuing this line of discussion.

[Lotion]

Totally disagree. I've seen it done very effectively elsewhere. My point was that a rules document is a communication of expectations. It's an expression of core values. I'm only suggesting some reflection on what the rules document says to our players, particularly our new players, as long as we're trying to address the problems brought on by misuse of OOC info. That's my view; I have no interest in continuing this line of discussion.

There are so many systemic problems with this game. Addressing this one is a good start at tearing them down.

[Kavrick]

Honestly it's a little shame it's even come to this. Armageddon is very much in a unique situation when it comes to how ooc is even approached. Through all the games, communities, roleplaying that I've done over the years and even now, this is the only one that happens to be like this. It's a real sad state of affairs that people can't really be trusted just to... Be responsible in whether or not they use alt accounts for things and not metagrudge people or ruin secrets. I have an alt account that I use specifically for clan forums, and that's always been fine, I feel like making a new one every time you join a clan is a bit much though.

Honestly I'd rather see the weird ooc curtain slowly dismantled but the Armageddon community is just so used to it being this way after 20+ years of such a system that I don't even know if the chance is possible. It's a complicated topic that I don't even know if I can properly formulate into words. Just be kind to eachother, I guess.

[Agent_137]

Honestly I'd rather see the weird ooc curtain slowly dismantled but the Armageddon community is just so used to it being this way after 20+ years of such a system that I don't even know if the chance is possible.

Hey, the Berlin Wall came down didn't it?

Quick someone deepfake this speech to address Usiku about the ooc curtain.   

[Kavrick]

Hey, the Berlin Wall came down didn't it?

I mean there's a chance, although this whole thing with forum accounts does honestly feel like a step back. It's lowering the curtain rather than raising it. It's really hard to convey the issue to people who've been using the system for so many years, as it's completely alien and there's the whole 'you can't teach old dogs new tricks'.

This all aside, there is something I want to point out. It's basically a completely proven phenomenon that people who have anonymity tend to act far more toxic and with less consideration for other people. 4Chan is basically the posterboy for this phenomenon. It's going to be a completely hot take, but if a player becomes known for acting shittily in game, the community knowing is apart of feedback that's supposed to correct it. This might seem extremely harsh, but if I can just play in a completely inconsiderate way, then die, and do it all over again anonymously, there's really no pushback for that behavior.

I just want to also say that this is not directed towards anyone. And when I say 'acting shittily in game', I don't mean just being an antag. You can play antags in a way that's enjoyable for people oocly, this is basically what every dungeon master at every table of DnD has had to do for what, 50-60 years?

Edit: Quick edit, just want to say that this also goes the opposite way. Sometimes in the past, I've joined a clan, joined a clan forum, seen someone who I recognized from a previous clan or something and just thought "hell yeah". Having a good reputation oocly is also going to make people want to roleplay with you more. And of course I don't mean collude, I just mean just recognizing someone in a clan forum and knowing that you're gonna have a fun time being around their character.

[Dresan]

What i find interesting is that for years it has felt people have been name dropping on clan forums to reap in any benefits from being a well known name.

That said, I think forcing people to create a clan GDB name every time is not necessary just to prevent negative effects. Unsure if this is the ask though, it feels like you just need to have a separate account.

People should really just be creating one for any sponsored roles, after a notable long lived clan character and maybe then once a year after that depending on usage. This way it'll be easier to manage both from a player side and staff side. Pretty sure staff would not readily know my clan forum account without comparing the IPs or 5 years+ old requests. Maybe there could also be a name format that the clan accounts are created as to better manage them. For example, CLAN<NEWGDBNAME>

[Kavrick]

What i find interesting is that for years it has felt people have been name dropping on clan forums to reap in any benefits from being a well known name.

Can you elaborate on this? Like what benefits are there from "name dropping"? I'm not saying the benefits don't exist but you skimmed over this and it seems like you're framing it as if it's bad if someone benefits from being known as a good player.

[Halaster]

This might help if we can get someone to do it:  https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60875.0.html

[Wday]

Where you make a alt or not the crowd in Arm will discord and go after you anyway here.  Seen it here and on another MUD not long ago with my character.  Why I left the discord channel is too much trouble in the ooc field of Armageddon to enjoy the game.  As for GDB I post in clans to get rpt times but figure Team X will locate me anyway so just enjoy what I can to then.

[Dresan]

This might help if we can get someone to do it:  https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60875.0.html

I love the idea. If someone can't do it, perhaps we can fund outsourcing the work someone that can with donations too.

Unsure the viability of that from a coding perspective considering the game's scope, but might be a good test.  

[creeper386]

This might help if we can get someone to do it:  https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60875.0.html

This is a great idea.

With this being open source, and can be tied in, how likely would things like automating joining clan boards when already recruited IC?

[Nao]

I really don't see the issue that requires a complicated solution here. Making a gdb account takes two minutes. What's the issue?

[pretty pretty princess]

I really don't see the issue that requires a complicated solution here. Making a gdb account takes two minutes. What's the issue?

yeah making a gdb alt with the gmail+ trick usiku mentioned was hella easy and took no time at all

there is no issue other than people being melodramatic

[Tailong]

I really don't see the issue that requires a complicated solution here. Making a gdb account takes two minutes. What's the issue?

I really don't see the issue that requires a complicated solution here. Making a gdb account takes two minutes. What's the issue?

yeah making a gdb alt with the gmail+ trick usiku mentioned was hella easy and took no time at all

there is no issue other than people being melodramatic

My issue is:  I simply don't want to, and should not be forced to do it. So, I'm just not going to join any forums after my current character. Simple.

[Inky]

What a hill to die on.

[Tailong]

What a hill to die on.

Honestly doesn't affect my enjoyment of the game.  I don't app for leaders or rolecalls and I turn down IC advancement to leadership as fast I can. 

Not participating in clan forums will not affect me in the slightest. 

[eska]

I really don't see the issue that requires a complicated solution here. Making a gdb account takes two minutes. What's the issue?

The issue is switching between GDB accounts. You may not find it troublesome, but I find it irritating to be forced to do so.

[Agent_137]

I think a happy medium would be if you could join with your regular account just not post. It'll protect you from identification and you can still follow the conversation.

want to post? make an alt.

don't want to make alts? Cool, just follow along. How often is posting on a clan GDB reallllllly critical?

[Tailong]

I think a happy medium would be if you could join with your regular account just not post. It'll protect you from identification and you can still follow the conversation.

want to post? make an alt.

don't want to make alts? Cool, just follow along. How often is posting on a clan GDB reallllllly critical?

The ONLY positives, outside of clan documentation, which let's be honest, only a handful of players actually follow, to a clan GDB forum are RPT times and discussion (shouldn't be discussion, you either can come or can't) and possible locker assignments. Everything else can be accomplished IC, or should be attempted at least.

[Windstorm]

This honestly feels like a lot of fuss and argument over almost nothing, but I guess that's Arm for you!

It takes like 3 clicks and less keystrokes than your average emote to make another GDB handle. Maybe they'll just find a way to anonymize clan forums.

Will it make a difference? Who knows? I appreciate them trying. It'll be okay, guys.

[Norcal]

At this point, staff should be making the game more accessible not more complicated. Do you want interaction? Make it easier, not more of a pain.

[Veselka]

At this point, staff should be making the game more accessible not more complicated. Do you want interaction? Make it easier, not more of a pain.

Again, they aren't doing this because they want to. In fact it sounds like most Staff dislike that they are doing this, but feel they don't have much else in their arsenal given recent leaks and trolling/speculation.

They're doing it because we (players) can't keep our mouths shut, and can't help but find out who's playing who, spilling the tea elsewhere, and causing a mess for people playing those roles while Jcarter forum people speculate on why Soandso is playing <insert leadership role> and other petty drama.

If we were a better community with a healthier focus on the game/playing the unwinnable game for the fun of it and not to 'win' it, they wouldn't probably feel it necessary to takes these steps. They are, it seems, looking into other alternatives (and also stated they would roll it back if it ended up not being effective).

Do these changes hurt accessibility? I suppose they do, as they make it just a bit harder to join a clan forum, requiring creating an alternative account/email (which Staff provided guidance on performing).

Do OOC Cliques and gossipmongering/participation hurt the game? I would posit it hurts it more than these steps from Staff might, that are, in essence, an attempt at protection for leadership roles and 'who plays who' speculation.

[Lizzie]

At this point, staff should be making the game more accessible not more complicated. Do you want interaction? Make it easier, not more of a pain.

The game isn't any more or less accessible, you will have no more or less interaction in game. This only affects your access to clan forum posts. It's a pretty big convenience to access them, but that's all it is. People can still play in clans without ever joining the clan forums, or reading them. There are people who already opt out and manage just fine.

[MarshallDFX]

This thread feels to be headed in increasingly non-productive directions.

As is clear from Halaster's post of plugins for SMForums, alternatives are being researched to simplify life.

Thread locked at least for a bit.