Infiltrator Sap

[Dresan]

Considering some of the changes to Sap and stun damage, is Sap now balanced at max cap to give it to infiltrators, in the similar fashion as it has max cap backstab?

I think the odd skill on infiltrators is Peek though, which made a bit more sense before Seasons, but quite a bit less so now. Perhaps this could be removed, leaving direct spying more in the realm of miscreants.

Like backstab, I want to assume sap should no longer be One-Hit KOing people who didn't choose endurance as their dump stat. 

Some of those balancing changes including:

• Staff being Max weapon size for Sap.
• lowering stun damage multiplier for waist location by 62.5%
• lowered stun damage multiplier for bludgeoning weapons by 16.7%
• Weapon quality plus higher quality weapons being more rarer/harder to acquire
• Combat overhaul, strength/agility changes
• focus was added, making it so people no longer have depleted stun scores due to waying/barrier.

[Roon]

Peek on infiltrator was a nice boon for city elves whose innate skill was steal, but then this was changed to sleight of hand, which is honestly a pretty big loss for the race. Infiltrator and city elf was the natural class/race combination for a number of reasons. All the classes that make sense to play as a city elf already get sleight of hand, so I'm not sure why the racial skill was changed to that.

I haven't tried sap in recent times, but it was hit very hard by a variety of changes. Stun damage reduced across the board, weapon damage reduced overall, bludgeoning weapon damage specifically reduced further than other types, and you can't sap with a maul. Strength and two handed were also nerfed, and one could say that this hurt the sapping/bludgeoning archetype harder than other types of combat characters. I'm guessing that raising the sap skill ceiling of infiltrators wouldn't cause any balance problems.

[Dresan]

....city elves whose innate skill was steal, but then this was changed to sleight of hand, which is honestly a pretty big loss for the race.....All the classes that make sense to play as a city elf already get sleight of hand, so I'm not sure why the racial skill was changed to that.

I don't disagree with you. However, I strongly believe the staff still did the right move by removing steal, despite the fact that one of the only improvements I've seen so far in this specific regard is that now when elves are treated like thieves its blatant(?) racism. I think all the changes still deserves more play time to fully gauge but at some point this will also deserve its own thread. /derail 

[LindseyBalboa]

nvm

[Krath]

I think if we are going to increase the cap of Sap for Infiltrator, we should also increase it for enforcers.

[Roon]

Enforcer already gets it as high as it goes for anybody. The original question was about the fact that only that one class gets to master it, and infiltrator only gets advanced, and whether that should change.

Enforcer also gets backstab as high as it can go. Previously, infiltrators only got it to the low end of master, i.e. not the highest possible. This was then changed so that the infiltrator class was not completely crap. The question now is if the same should be done with sap. I don't have a dog in the race, but it's a fair question.

[Dresan]

I mostly find it a curious design choice at this point.

Why give both enforcer and infiltrator both max cap backstab, but not do the same for sap?

It really makes it seem like backstab is balanced at max cap but sap is not, which is hopefully not the case anymore.

[FantasyWriter]

I feel like enforcer should get ADV backstab/sap and infiltrator should get MAS backstab/sap.

[Kavrick]

I feel like enforcer should get ADV backstab/sap and infiltrator should get MAS backstab/sap.

I'm fine with enforcer having master sap because they have to branch it off a goddamn weapon skill. Also I see enforcer more as an... Enforcer. While infiltrator is more the assassin, so I think it actually makes sense that enforcers get better sap and infiltrators get better backstab.

[Dresan]

I feel like enforcer should get ADV backstab/sap and infiltrator should get MAS backstab/sap.

Sub-guild backstab is at low master. Additionally, Enforcer can be played with a focus on agility or strength, two handed or dual wielding. I never like the idea of needlessly limiting player choice. Its the same with infiltrator, seems to lean towards backstab instead of opening up different options for the class.

[FantasyWriter]

I guess to me an enforcer is the stereotypical dumb brute-force wielding bouncer or henchman. Where Infiltrator is the guy you send to do things on the down-low.
They just punch you in the face rather than trying to sneak up behind you and Vulcan neck-pinch you with a heavy branch.

@Dresan, I see where you are coming from on the not limiting options and agree. Maybe just add master backstab/sap to infiltrator.  They are much more the old-school guild_assassin than enforcer is.

[cnemus]

One other balance feature to consider is Infiltrator gets notably better sneak and hide. I believe the Enforcer is and should continue to be the best at the violence, but they are much more likely to be thwarted on the covert side. The Infiltrator is supposed to be the stealthier option. Where sap and backstab are concerned stealth matters.

I don't want anyone to have master sneak, hide, backstab, and sap. Infiltrator gets three out of four, that's plenty.

[Dresan]

I don't want anyone to have master sneak, hide, backstab, and sap. Infiltrator gets three out of four, that's plenty.

Infiltrator's direct combat abilities are significantly poorer for a reason. They need to rely on stealth to find the right opportunity in more strategic locations or abort if things don't look good for them. Enforcer stealth encourages more simple move/attack tactics. Both backstab and sap should not really be one hit killing healthy people, at least I hope that is still currently the case. Given the combat overhaul , would argue backstab with a great weapon/poison should have vastly greater potential than sap.

Given all the recent changes, infiltrator getting max cap sap no longer seems OP but this is not really a hill I would die on.

All that said, Enforcer woes are a very separate thread.

[Agent_137]

I don't play many naughty city classes but don't we want sap to be as good an alternative as backstab? I'd much prefer my PC getting robbed naked than deleted. 

But sap seems worse ... gotta carry heavier weapon. Can't apply poison.  Evidently has lower caps.

Was it OP in spite of that before?

Seems like a ton of work to play test live. 

Anyway just here to say please rob my pc blind but don't kill em.

[Roon]

Sap was definitely a bit too strong before any of these changes went in, mostly because you could use the biggest two-handed maul you could find, and the existence of outdated weapons with abnormally high damage. There were people doing downright silly things like humans or dwarves etwo'ing HG weapons and sapping people. Sap has been nerfed in like six different ways in the last couple of years, so I have no idea what it's like now.