Top Tier Weapon Crafting

[Halaster]

As it stands right now, the process that players have to go through to craft a top tier weapon is to first custom-craft a weapon 2 below their best, then the next month 1 below their best, then they can finally make top tier on the 3rd month.

Note that top-tier means:
- "amazing" quality for any weapon type for Salarr, or
- "amazing" quality for a single weapon type for a tribal, as has been decided by their tribe in the past (for example, the Dune Poopers chose as a tribe that they can make longswords as their type, so now they can CC "amazing" quality longswords, and up to "very good" for everything else).
- "very good" for everyone else

The point of this was to make CC'ing amazing weapons rare, of course.  And also so that someone couldn't just instantly start off CC'ing an 'amazing' weapon.

I've mostly heard grumbles with this method, but it was the best we came up with to limit them.  It might not be a bad idea to simply the process while keeping it rare.  The best idea I have is to just say you can only submit an Amazing CC once per x-time (3 months I guess).

Thoughts, or other ideas?

[Riev]

I don't mind them being time-gated, but its the 2 month work up that gets to me.

You have to make two sub-par weapons, effectively bloating the items in the game with things people probably "don't want", just to make that top tier thing.

I think every 3 months for a top tier weapon recipe is fine, but remove the ramp-up. Allow us to spend that final, 3rd month to RP and study and work on the weapon ICly. Allow me two other custom crafts that maybe lead into it.

Whether I want to make a new pommel stone, or a custom grip, etc. I would like to spend the first 2 custom crafts on anything, and staff can require some in game questing/updates on HOW they're making the amazing weapon.

[zealus]

Once per 3 months would be nice. That way, you can spend 2 months on other projects, and then make a good thing.

Genuine side question: With time-limtied seasons: Is time-gating still something we want?

[AKawaiiBear]

Imho make it so amazing weapons degrade and lose quality overtime unless maintained by a weaponsmith capable of CCing
Maintaining/repairing an amazing weapon consumes a CC slot because of the amount of time involved
Let indys make and maintain amazing weapons but make is so that those in speciality clans can do more than 1 maintenance per month

[Halaster]

Genuine side question: With time-limtied seasons: Is time-gating still something we want?

I think so, to keep them rare.  Well, unless we come up with another way to make them just as rare to craft.

[Kavrick]

A big issues I have with the method of making better weapons as a crafter isn't just that you have to wait 2 months, it's that if you're CCing an item that's not a weapon, you're basically shooting yourself in the foot. You're basically incentivized to make weapon CCs and nothing else.

I have a couple of ideas for solutions. One would be just to give multiple custom crafts a month to T5 characters, this would also solve the other issue of T5s getting the same as subguild crafters. If you made sure that you could only use a single Cc a month on a crafting type, it'd balance out that issue.

Once per 3 months is also not a bad idea, I don't hate it, but also as Zealus said, a 3 month time gate for a limited-time season is kiiinda meh, also time gates in general aren't the best. I do honestly feel like you can just gate really good items behind extremely rare materials. A time gate isn't as an interesting gate as requiring people to kill something like a roc, mekillot or some other massive danger. If a crafter wants to make an awesome sword, let them, but just require equally rare materials.

[Dresan]

I like the idea of keeping it rare, but don't see any point in doing so by making it a complex potentially tedious process both on staff and player sides. Additionally, without any sort of weapon/armor durability decay its probably better to err on the side of caution in terms of time-gating.

A flat 3 months sounds good to start off with but as always this could be adjusted in the future. That said, wait time in themselves are not exactly fun, so I am hoping staff are making these items worth the wait.

I also think it would be great having a command to see timers time-gated features  your character has available such as custom crafts and learn.

[Kavrick]

Imho make it so amazing weapons degrade and lose quality overtime unless maintained by a weaponsmith capable of CCing
Maintaining/repairing an amazing weapon consumes a CC slot because of the amount of time involved
Let indys make and maintain amazing weapons but make is so that those in speciality clans can do more than 1 maintenance per month

Also just generally equipment degrading and getting worse is a good thing, a big issue with playing a crafter is that once someone has gotten their hands on the equipment they need, they never need to buy more.

[papertiger]

I think it'd be better if amazing weapons were plot specific or tied to some sort of mandatory plot/quest. It would also be cool if the person requesting the weapon was forced to source materials for it, increasing rp for grebbers/hunters/explorers. This would foist some of the effort onto those who demand the weapon (often with threats made to the crafter). I'm not entirely sure how you could justify that IC or what the quests would be exactly, especially since amazing stuff wouldn't be clan locked anymore.

[Patuk]

Once per 3 months is fine.

Also, because I'm that guy: every single magick weapon, of every single element, being always amazing?

It is a little much. Let the mon weapons be amazing, sure, but maybe tone the others down a little. The difference in effort between spending X amount of mana and finding the materials for a good weapon is immense.

[Trevalyan]

I've seen amazing-tier weapons in game. The best way to limit them is to say that normal processes and standard custom crafting are simply insufficient for amazing-tier weapons. Unless you have:

- sacred ancient/ bloody rituals which tribals use to imbue weapons with power
- insane amounts of wealth poured into the weapon by city nobles, likely with GMH help
- or a dedicated program requiring focused GMH effort to realize, either using novel methods or special materials, probably both.

Then I don't think any crafter is worthy of amazing weapons, period. I never wanted my characters to be capable of making them.

EDIT: I'd actually be good with Producers stepping in to decide which amazing-tier projects are viable. In the new meta, I can't imagine people just letting a chance to cripple House Salarr slide. Conversely, at least some people should be ready to slit throats for the project to succeed.

[Patuk]

Crafters are already a little rare, a lot redundant (intentionally, see also Usiku's most recent post on ask the staff), and not very good at producing stuff people want. You gotta give them something.

[Big Red]

I don't think that lopping a month off the cc process would really dump that many more Amazing weapons into the player market. There's still only so many dedicated weaponcrafter PCs, and having them each start a month earlier doesn't really jack up the throughput that much, especially if you pair with with this longer 'cc cooldown' you're thinking of.

Another thing that might help avoid an 'Amazing Weapon Meta' is retuning the amazing recipes to require even rarer materials. Bahamet and horror shell aren't easy to get, but they might still be too easy to really constrain high level weapon production.

If there's e.g. 100 active players, I think having about 5 Amazing weapons and possibly 1 Legendary weapon being in the hands of the playerbase is about the level of rarity that would be cool. The Amazing weapons should be attracting a lot of envy, theft, and worse, I think.

[Trevalyan]

Look, if you're even being considered for an amazing-tier project, it's because your GMH has PREPOSTEROUS confidence in you. The project needs to be an organizational focus for multiple months, during which time your character should be protected like a triceratops egg. I'm pretty sure a top-tier noble would have an epic conniption if the guy making her weapon died before...

... as opposed to dying afterwards. Yes, you know who you are.

EDIT: I'm just going to say it. Riev is probably more qualified than anyone to say what a superior weapons project looks like. Do what he says: drop the earlier requirements, and focus on the specific project to actually make the weapon. Being "the best" crafter should involve a LOT of learning, with special mini-projects as landmarks.

[Patuk]

Guys. Things in this game take a long time. A really really long time. This is doubly true for crafters, who can't just go and explore a random cave or the mantis valley or some other place at any given time. They're pretty shut in.

I think we can afford to speed the pace of stuff up a little.

[Agent_137]

You have to make two sub-par weapons

You mean you have to make two perfectly viable weapons that don't need expensive and dangerous-to-acquire exotic materials and high crafting skill to produce?

I get not wanting to make CCs nobody asked for just to level up, but calling good and very good quality weapons sub par is misleading and wrong. They're what most well off players should be using.

Amazing weapons already require high master skill, are one offs, max 4 per RL year, a 2 month wait between each, and 5 ingredients one which is megafauna level difficult to get.  That's pretty limiting as is.  I do think we can safely dispense with the good/very good weapon grind up without impacting the volume. And monitoring the volume and location should be pretty easy for staff if they're all tagged right. 

[Kavrick]

get not wanting to make CCs nobody asked for just to level up, but calling good and very good quality weapons sub par is misleading and wrong. They're what most well off players should be using.

Very good was the highest quality I've ever gotten my hands on. And the night-bladed khopeshes that my Two-Moons had were my treasure. I think it's a little strange for anyone to expect to get amazing quality weapons, they should be rare and a massive feat to get.

Also very good weapons, as the name suggests, are very good. Like, they more than perform how you'd want them to.

[Trevalyan]

I get not wanting to make CCs nobody asked for just to level up, but calling good and very good quality weapons sub par is misleading and wrong. They're what most well off players should be using.

It means underneath the maximum standard you can make as a crafter. While I understand using them as landmarks for independent crafters, I'd be okay with tribal and GMH crafters being handwaved. After all, they're going to be central figures soon enough in SOME kind of plot.

[Dresan]

calling good and very good quality weapons sub par is misleading and wrong. They're what most well off players should be using.

On the same note, in regards to armor type I think calling it cheap leather was also somewhat misleading. Especially given it is used to make some really important gear. I think calling it soft, light or thin leather should have been used instead. It is a minor gripe though. 

[Agent_137]

I get not wanting to make CCs nobody asked for just to level up, but calling good and very good quality weapons sub par is misleading and wrong. They're what most well off players should be using.

It means underneath the maximum standard you can make as a crafter.

Maybe that's what sub-par means to you given the context, but par without context means average or normal. We have a lot of new players now. I stand by my correction.

[Usiku]

I think if we were going to remove the 'ramp up' process for crafting amazing weapons.. then I would at least want to see a person have to still pick a specialisation for a type of weapon that they are good at. The point of the ramp up was essentially to 'unlock' that mastery. So you have slowly increased your knowledge of sword making and now you can make amazing swords. If we don't have that process (which feels like a good IC process to be RPing around), then I would at least want to see crafters limited to one type, rather than being able to unlock more (which they can do with the current process). So Amos can be an incredible swordsmith, but if you want an axe you need to go to Malek.

We'd also quite like to somehow curb the 'need' for amazing weapons. Like.. good and very good.. are also great. Amazing weapons shouldn't be available to everyone, they shouldn't be in reach for everyone. They shouldn't be the expectation for everyone. Most PCs should not even begin to dream of owning a weapon that good. That's how good they are supposed to be. They really aren't the difference between life or death or winning or losing.

[Dresan]

...then I would at least want to see a person have to still pick a specialisation for a type of weapon that they are good at. ... We'd also quite like to somehow curb the 'need' for amazing weapons.

I think people sometimes confuse 'need' with 'want'. I also feel that some people believe they are entitled to their virtual stuff, but they aren't. 

The low quality starter shop weapons and armor are useable and its really more than you need to survive and enjoy the game.

Some additional thoughts about good/amazing items:

• I love the idea of specialization for classes and subclasses with ability to make such items. 
• Shops should not buy or sell weapons above good quality. If players want to sell or buy, they need to find each other or have taken the appropriate subclass or just settle for what they have.
• Armor skill should also be broken up into Light Armor, heavy armor and shield crafting. To allow eventual quality and specialization as well

Kudos on increasing the prices of gear, fantastic to see, however we still need gear/weapon degradation on top of this to promote the use and value of cheaper gear, as well as long term viability of crafting. Again, its great people want this equipment, but want is different than need and the staff should continue to enforce that accordingly.

[Dracul]

I love the idea of amazing weapons degrading and needing maintenance.

All weapons degrading has the pro/con balance of playability but if it's a matter of your amazing weapon eventually losing its sharp edge it's more reasonable.

[Trevalyan]

I think if we were going to remove the 'ramp up' process for crafting amazing weapons.. then I would at least want to see a person have to still pick a specialisation for a type of weapon that they are good at. The point of the ramp up was essentially to 'unlock' that mastery. So you have slowly increased your knowledge of sword making and now you can make amazing swords. If we don't have that process (which feels like a good IC process to be RPing around), then I would at least want to see crafters limited to one type, rather than being able to unlock more (which they can do with the current process). So Amos can be an incredible swordsmith, but if you want an axe you need to go to Malek.

I think this is a great idea. A GMH might be able to produce multiple amazing weapons, but each smith has their own specialty. And once they die, the GMH decides who is entrusted with the production rights for that line- if the Producers rule that enough secrets have leaked.

As for amazing weapons, I've only ever seen one. It's more likely that an amazing weapon will go to a noble or templar to lord over the poors before it EVER gets into general circulation. Besides which, if you annoy Salarr enough IG, they'll make sure Muk Utep gets a statue by the Dragon Gate before you ever get top-tier weapons from them.

[Lips]

Instead of gating behind time, maybe gate behind IC circumstances?  An independent merchant that has a quest to find that unique material they can mastercraft an amazing weapon with?  Salarr employees or tribal members that have received the right IC training?

Combine with Staff deciding if a weapon recipe is good or very good rather than the player requesting it. All independent mastercraft amazing level weapons should be one offs, with IC circumstances important. Maybe make the Salarr and independents craft the amazing weapon as a one off and then spend a later mastercraft to make it a recipe that others in the clan can use.

[Trevalyan]

Combine with Staff deciding if a weapon recipe is good or very good rather than the player requesting it.

When new custom crafts submissions take place only every month, you can count on crafters being REALLY salty about this. Particularly if rare mats are used. I was generally very satisfied with custom crafting, and had master skills that would have qualified me to make very good weapons.

Given what I saw of the one character qualified to make amazing weapons, I'm absolutely happy to let staff be as strict as they want about what is required. A months-long process requiring specially created materials isn't unreasonable at all.

[whengravityfails]

I think if we were going to remove the 'ramp up' process for crafting amazing weapons.. then I would at least want to see a person have to still pick a specialisation for a type of weapon that they are good at. The point of the ramp up was essentially to 'unlock' that mastery. So you have slowly increased your knowledge of sword making and now you can make amazing swords. If we don't have that process (which feels like a good IC process to be RPing around), then I would at least want to see crafters limited to one type, rather than being able to unlock more (which they can do with the current process). So Amos can be an incredible swordsmith, but if you want an axe you need to go to Malek.

We'd also quite like to somehow curb the 'need' for amazing weapons. Like.. good and very good.. are also great. Amazing weapons shouldn't be available to everyone, they shouldn't be in reach for everyone. They shouldn't be the expectation for everyone. Most PCs should not even begin to dream of owning a weapon that good. That's how good they are supposed to be. They really aren't the difference between life or death or winning or losing.

I honestly don't see the need to change anything at all - amazing quality weapons should be exceedingly rare and producing four per RL year is really quite enough. If there was to be any change then this would be the best way to go about it, I'd think. Although considering the progression goes "good" to "Very good" both of those steps still produce weapons at a level that most PCs are ever going to get (and often are willing to pay to have a custom one made, at least when I was Merchant). Tacking a scaling upwards customization fee on quality level makes a difference, especially if you're already limiting Amazing to people of certain strata of society.

[Halaster]

Currently, you can make a -2 from max quality, then you make a -1 from max quality, then you make a max quality.  And you can keep CC'ing your max quality of that specific type every month from then on.

As a reminder, here's the process found at https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58907.0.html

"You cannot start with the best for your ability and always submit that, you have to work your way up to it.  Once you have mastered crafting a weapon type, you can craft two quality levels before your max, then one below it, then at the highest to represent your PC becoming a specialist in that weapon type.

For example, based on your skill and the fact you're in Salarr or a tribe and working on your tribe's specialty sword, your best is 'amazing'.  The first month's CC must be a good sword, the next: a very good sword and the third: an amazing sword. Once this is done, your PC can now always craft amazing swords, within the other limitations.

For example, based on your skill and you're an independent making a spear, the highest you can craft is 'very good'.  The first month's CC must be an above average spear, the second: a good spear, and the third: a very good spear.  Once this is done, your PC can now always craft very good spears, within the other limitations.."


Also remember, "amazing" quality weapons cannot have a crafting recipe, they are all one-offs.  This is not true for very good and below, they can have recipes.

A re-read of that thread might be in order for everyone in this discussion.  I even forgot some tidbits about that.

[eska]

And you can keep CC'ing your max quality of that specific type every month from then on.

This is still hazy for me.
Let's say I'm a Salarri crafter and I mastered crafting all 4 weapon types. After CC'in my way up to amazing with each type, can I CC an amazing weapon of each type in one RL month?

[Halaster]

And you can keep CC'ing your max quality of that specific type every month from then on.

This is still hazy for me.
Let's say I'm a Salarri crafter and I mastered crafting all 4 weapon types. After CC'in my way up to amazing with each type, can I CC an amazing weapon of each type in one RL month?

You're still limited to your normal number of CC's per month, which is typically 1.

In your example as a Salarri, it means that if you go through the process of making a good axe, then the next month a very good axe, then the next month an amazing axe, you don't have to go through that process again.  You can keep doing amazing axes, if that's what you one your CC that month to be.  But you're still limited to 1 a month.

So you could work your way up to amazing axes, then make one.  The next month you CC a shield.  The following month you could come back to axes and do amazing since you already went through that process.

And by the way, Usiku's clarification says that 'type' means per crafting skill, so:
spearmaking
axe making
knife making
swordmaking
club making

I don't believe any other crafting makes a weapon (like stonecrafting) but if it does, that's covered too.

[Big Red]

I don't believe any other crafting makes a weapon (like stonecrafting) but if it does, that's covered too.

Hell yeah. Going to roll Master Chef on my next PC and custom craft the world's greatest shivs

[eska]

I don't believe any other crafting makes a weapon (like stonecrafting) but if it does, that's covered too.

Hell yeah. Going to roll Master Chef on my next PC and custom craft the world's greatest shivs

If you do that, I'll order an amazing shish from you. So I can make the best skeet shish kebabs or stab things here and there using it.