Skill Increase Notification

[Windstorm]

I've seen skill increase notifications happen in multiple other games that were (some more and some less) similar to the RPI format. I think Armageddon is in fact the lone holdout anywhere that totally refuses to tell you this.

My experience everywhere else is that it improved roleplay. People spent less time grinding.

I believe Armageddon would benefit from the same.

[Patuk]

I, too, would appreciate this immensely.

[dumbstruck]

Same. It makes things a lot easier. Knowing that there's a chance you don't get the skill the first time always makes me want to push for a second just in case. I'd rather just know. Also when people do incredibly unrealistic shit and see that it doesn't actually help, maybe they will do something else.

[Agent_137]

Or hide skill levels cough cough

I know that won't happen tho. 

Maybe there's a way to indicate skill progression that doesn't inject ooc so frequently into gameplay?

[Lizzie]

Or hide skill levels cough cough

I know that won't happen tho. 

Maybe there's a way to indicate skill progression that doesn't inject ooc so frequently into gameplay?

There is. You know you're better because - you're better.  Slashing skill: you can tell you're better because you notice that you don't miss as often, and when you hit, you hit harder more often. Bludgeoning: your weapon doesn't "bounce" off the opponent as often, and you "reel" your opponent more often.  Crafting: you can make more things with a raw material than you could yesterday, OR you succeed more often with stuff you had failed with regularly, up until today.  When things are easier to succeed with, OR when you branch a new skill, OR when your success is superior to yesterday's success, you know you're getting better.

[dumbstruck]

Or hide skill levels cough cough

I know that won't happen tho. 

Maybe there's a way to indicate skill progression that doesn't inject ooc so frequently into gameplay?

I think that as long as it's a permadeath game that's heavily gated by skill in many areas (by the lethality of content), people are going to keep trying, that and so long as skills branch on trees, people will try and branch their skills because they just can't start with everything the guild and subguild confer. If they did, I'd use about half as many skills about half as much or less.

[Agent_137]

good point. Remove branching instead!

I'm not being sarcastic. It's another hack and slash 1990s legacy that doesn't do us any favors as an RPI.

[dumbstruck]

good point. Remove branching instead!

I would be all over this. I wouldn't mind if proficiency was much slower if skills weren't tiered such that you had to master one to get another.

[bracken]

Upskill notification could be toggleable?

[Windstorm]

To me it represents a small-but-immense playability improvement and would be something that would go a long way towards retaining new players by making things less arcane.

I'd take a side of no branching along with it, excepting perhaps superkillmoves. Backstab and sap can stay branching.

[Kavrick]

I've played other muds that tell you when you get skill ups, it has literally never reduced the quality of RP or resulted on more powergaming. Knowing when your skills increase does nothing but give a nice Quality of Life improvement and increases player retention because I know it seems silly, but 'funny number going up' is a simple enough reward that it keeps people invested, tons of games do this.

Showing when you get gains also is a good improvement to the game's notoriously bad new-player experience, as at least this way new players will actually know if they're doing something right.

[Usiku]

This is something we've discussed a fair bit on our side. While it's currently on hold, I imagine we'll revisit it after the launch. I am strongly against an OOC note that actually pops up, as this isn't something we do and some players may find it very jarring, even if you personally don't. My suggestion is that for those eagerly hoping for a skill increase, we add a small icon, like an asterisk (*) or an uppy arrow thing (^), next to a skill in the skill interface if it has increased in the last 10 minutes or so. This way, you can type 'skill' periodically and check for yourself if it's important to you.

[Kavrick]

This is something we've discussed a fair bit on our side. While it's currently on hold, I imagine we'll revisit it after the launch. I am strongly against an OOC note that actually pops up, as this isn't something we do and some players may find it very jarring, even if you personally don't. My suggestion is that for those eagerly hoping for a skill increase, we add a small icon, like an asterisk (*) or an uppy arrow thing (^), next to a skill in the skill interface if it has increased in the last 10 minutes or so. This way, you can type 'skill' periodically and check for yourself if it's important to you.

I actually think this is a pretty great middle ground, I like it!

[Usiku]

In retrospect I think that might have been Ursun's idea originally, but that's the idea I preferred!

[Dresan]

I don't think an uptick message is necessary for a couple of reasons.


It is actuallly more of a gambling mechanic in games that takes away from this one, in the same way character levels would.

If this was implemented in any form people would quickly understand why it is also redundant. The moment you failed at something, it would uptick, some variety would exist but not very much. The 'You failed' is already the uptick message people are looking for in most cases.

That said, I would like to make branching easier across the board though for all skills. And do recommend adding astrisk when the skill is at max potential for your class/subclass, that would actually be beneficial.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

I think people might be focusing on the numbers and the skillups themselves more than being immersed in the world and even using the crafting (or practice) as potential RP opportunities.

Maybe if you're just in the learning phase and are one to give up easily, you stop for the day on your first fail. Or perhaps, if you're more determined, you might fail four or five times before you finally decide to stop. You may also be motivated to stop early due to shortage of materials and a desire to conserve them. There could be various factors that motivate your characters and affect their behaviors.. but I think an OOC notification that you got a skillup shouldn't be one of them.

[Armaddict]

I've seen skill increase notifications happen in multiple other games that were (some more and some less) similar to the RPI format. I think Armageddon is in fact the lone holdout anywhere that totally refuses to tell you this.

For better or worse, Armageddon is never really the place that did things just because they were being done elsewhere.  It's always kept to its own standards.  For strengths, that keeps it uniquely its own.  It can make it a place where certain values being maintained is an oasis for people who don't particularly like the trends of other centers.  For weakness, that does mean it is often lagging behind on change while the game feels out the impacts of those changes.

Basically, being a standout or not following the path of other games is not a convincing argument historically, though it -can- stimulate discussion by staff members who are of the same mind anyway.

[Kavrick]

Anybody that knows literally anything about game design will tell you that the idea that it's bad to look at other games that succeed and take from them is actually insane. Any time there's any discussion about mechanics that could improve the game, you get the same camp of players who want literally no changes ever at all. "Arm is good because it's not like other games." is not a sentence I've heard anyone say unironically. Armageddon is good because of it's fantastic and unique theme, it's vast world to explore and the way it mixes mechanics and roleplay into an enjoyable experience. Armageddon isn't fun because of all the clunky and obscured mechanics.

I have personally attempted to get people from the younger generations (that I'm in) to try and play the game. Most of them dropped the game because of how clunky and unintuitive is. The whole hidden mechanics thing only ever rewards older players, not new ones. If anyone is going to straight up tell me 'Yeah I would stop playing the game if there was a ^ next to a skill I recently got an increase for' then I would heavily doubt anything else they have to say.

Anyone saying that Armageddon is a good game because of how oocly inconvenient it is to play are just insulting all the work that's been put in for everything else.

[MarshallDFX]

I nuked a bunch of posts following from one that was insulting everybody.  Sorry to those who were saying non-rule breaking things that I blasted into moderation - I just don't think we need to argue the rudeness and I am somewhat short on time and wanted to clean it up.

(for what it's worth, I agree with the premise of a skill-up notice.  Could always have a toggle or make your client gag it if you hate it)

thread locked for now

[CirclelessBard]

I took some time to review the moderated posts for MarshallDFX and added back in the posts that seemed okay to add back in. I made my decisions based on whether they were replying to a rule-breaking post.

Please keep in mind the Community Rules and report content you believe is breaking the rules rather than reply to it.

Thank you! Thread will be unlocked shortly.

[Halaster]

Anybody that knows literally anything about game design will tell you that the idea that it's bad to look at other games that succeed and take from them is actually insane.

Anyone saying that Armageddon is a good game because of how oocly inconvenient it is to play are just insulting all the work that's been put in for everything else.

Agreed.  Which is why it's great no one in this thread said these things!

We don't intentionally say "Well, because some other game did it, we're not!".  As Armaddict explained, we don't make a change just because "everyone else is doing it".  Rather, we make a change because we decide that a specific change is good for us to make.  If there's something that "every other game like Arm is doing", we'll certainly have a think about it and decide if it's good for us, too.  But we base that decision on the merits of the change and the vision we have for the game, not because it's popular.  Granted, the popularity of something can help inspire the need to look into it, but that's about it.

[Kavrick]

We don't intentionally say "Well, because some other game did it, we're not!".  As Armaddict explained, we don't make a change just because "everyone else is doing it".  Rather, we make a change because we decide that a specific change is good for us to make.  If there's something that "every other game like Arm is doing", we'll certainly have a think about it and decide if it's good for us, too.  But we base that decision on the merits of the change and the vision we have for the game, not because it's popular.  Granted, the popularity of something can help inspire the need to look into it, but that's about it.

I agree with this, perhaps I said what I said in a heavy-handed manner. But I'd want to say that I don't think other games doing something is either a reason for or against making changes for armageddon. I just personally think that no game should be designed in a vacuum, references and looking at other games is just another part of healthy game development.

[Riev]

The idea of putting a character after a skill that "has failed recently" or "is ready to be failed" doesn't alleviate the issue. It still makes people spam skills every minute to check exactly what their 'timer' is. Any way someone can glean these "secretive code structures" will happen.

If the problem is that it ruins your immersion that someone breaks your barrier and the game responds with "You have learned how to maintain a stronger barrier!" is jarring ... I don't know. I'm playing a game, I'm not immersing myself like those people so I can't speak for them. What I CAN speak for is that there are so many "nosaves" and "toggles" that you almost should consider 'packages'. RP Package has these OOC communications off by default, BoneSwordz has then on by default.

[Agent_137]

letting your skill cooldowns dictate your character's activity is the wrong direction to go.  It's allowed but discouraged. Showing cooldowns would encourage it while still hiding the obtuse mechanics.

Better to be more public about the mechanics in help files so the ooc stays out of game. People could still let their cooldowns dictate their characters actions, but it'd be like it is now: discouraged and veiled with RP. 

The more we emphasize skill progression the more players will play for it instead of roleplay and then have a bad time when it goes up in smoke. 

[CirclelessBard]

I removed some arguments that were not a specific response to any particular player in the thread and didn't specifically have to do with the thread's topic. Per Rule 3, please keep the conversation on-topic. Thank you!