Full Guild Mages

[Bast]

WOO HOO!!!! I know what I am playing if I don't get any special apps in. Can we ask what to expect out of full guild mages?

[Riev]

I'm hoping lots of magick.

[HazelHomewrecker]

Is a certain old-school Krathi spell (cough)glowing(cough)rings(cough) going to be in the Full guild version? Or is that permanently gone?

[Evilone]

I would love to see some more magical items in game, at high cost, to make. Heirloom items, cursed items, or even flaming swords, that don't just get immediately taken by Templars and never seen from again. BG3 was such an enjoyable game for many reasons, but the magic item list was fantastic. Let us kill each other chasing magic items and trying to hold onto them.

I've not had a chance to play all the magicker roles, mainly because I always hated their skill lists, and it was hard to plan a character around not knowing what they can do. E.g Like making a drovian but not having hide and sneak, then realising instead of a crafting subguild I should have went Rogue or something similar.

Will skill lists be made transparent on the webpage? Or still remain a FOIC?

[Riev]

Seconding Hazel's question and piggy-backing:

With the idea of seasons and possible item wipes, is there going to be a meta-enforcement on magickal items and artifacts as there was before? To the point of, say, a very shady organization having all their artifacts (but 2) removed because there were "too many in game"?

[Halaster]

Is a certain old-school Krathi spell (cough)glowing(cough)rings(cough) going to be in the Full guild version? Or is that permanently gone?

For now, no.  We want to put it back in, but it needs adjusting first, which isn't a priority right now.

[Halaster]

Will skill lists be made transparent on the webpage? Or still remain a FOIC?

FOIC

[dumbstruck]

Will skill lists be made transparent on the webpage? Or still remain a FOIC?

FOIC

Honestly I really appreciate the update to the help files that I saw earlier. It was a nice and helpful mix of FOIC and practical knowledge to list the mundane skills only, and appreciated. It's better than no skills, and I can respect other people wanting the information right there when they look at general information for the same reason branching help files on mundane guilds are also on their own page.

[Lizzie]

Regarding spell trees. One of the most frustrating things for me was not knowing if I was "doing the right thing" in order to branch. By that I mean:

I'm practicing "this" spell, got it to the highest power possible. I keep practicing and practicing, in the hopes that it'll branch. I fail enough, I think. But it never branches. I spend hours and hours over the course of many weeks trying.

And then I find out through OOC channels that "this" spell doesn't branch out at all.

What I would LOVE...is something like this in my "welcome to your new mage character" approval e-mail:

Your character comes with the following 5 spells:

Detect Gurth
Create Havoc
Send Bauble
Fire-Fart
Blanket of Power

The first two each have one "limb" that branches off of them. The second two each have two "limbs" that branch off of them. Your final spell has three "limbs." Your element comes with 15 spells total.

This way the "mystery" and "discovery" is left available for me, but at least now I have some direction.

[Riev]

Not that its a help, but I've always tracked how many fails I've gotten (by the hour) on mages I've played. If the first spell took 12 fails to branch off, I'll go as high as 15 on another of the same tier.


What if, under the assumption we might institute a "you feel you've gained more insight on <fireball>", we also have a "You feel you can no longer learn more about <fireball>" so people know they hit the top?

[Lizzie]

Not that its a help, but I've always tracked how many fails I've gotten (by the hour) on mages I've played. If the first spell took 12 fails to branch off, I'll go as high as 15 on another of the same tier.


What if, under the assumption we might institute a "you feel you've gained more insight on <fireball>", we also have a "You feel you can no longer learn more about <fireball>" so people know they hit the top?

That only helps if you're failing the correct spell.

If you want ShieldFail spell, and it branches off of Detect Gurth, but you've been practicing and failing devotedly with FireFart, you will never EVER get ShieldFail.

In order to know which spells to practice and fail on, you have to know which spells branch off of which spells.  If you've been working on a spell that doesn't branch anything at all, hoping to see it eventually branch, then you've wasted all your time - and mana - and prevented yourself from interacting with other people by practicing something that will never succeed beyond what you've already achieved.

I don't need to know which spells branch off of Detect Gurth. I mean that'd be awesome, but it's not necessary. What I DO need to know, is whether or not Detect Gurth has any spells that branch off it at all, so I can decide whether or not to invest more time in it once I've mastered the spell.

[Lotion]

Is a certain old-school Krathi spell (cough)glowing(cough)rings(cough) going to be in the Full guild version? Or is that permanently gone?

You don't have to cast it on rings. You can cast it on other items.

[Riev]

Not that its a help, but I've always tracked how many fails I've gotten (by the hour) on mages I've played. If the first spell took 12 fails to branch off, I'll go as high as 15 on another of the same tier.


What if, under the assumption we might institute a "you feel you've gained more insight on <fireball>", we also have a "You feel you can no longer learn more about <fireball>" so people know they hit the top?

That only helps if you're failing the correct spell.

If you want ShieldFail spell, and it branches off of Detect Gurth, but you've been practicing and failing devotedly with FireFart, you will never EVER get ShieldFail.

In order to know which spells to practice and fail on, you have to know which spells branch off of which spells.  If you've been working on a spell that doesn't branch anything at all, hoping to see it eventually branch, then you've wasted all your time - and mana - and prevented yourself from interacting with other people by practicing something that will never succeed beyond what you've already achieved.

I don't need to know which spells branch off of Detect Gurth. I mean that'd be awesome, but it's not necessary. What I DO need to know, is whether or not Detect Gurth has any spells that branch off it at all, so I can decide whether or not to invest more time in it once I've mastered the spell.

What I'm saying is that there is still a coded skill level for spells, like there is any other skill in the game. If you've hit the "You feel you can no longer learn more about <fireball>" message, it means you have completely mastered the spell and if anything came from it, you have it by now.

Just thinking of a way to not tell people which spells to practice, but inform them they no longer NEED to practice.

[Lizzie]

What I'm saying is that there is still a coded skill level for spells, like there is any other skill in the game. If you've hit the "You feel you can no longer learn more about <fireball>" message, it means you have completely mastered the spell and if anything came from it, you have it by now.

Just thinking of a way to not tell people which spells to practice, but inform them they no longer NEED to practice.

There's already an indication for spells that you've hit the high point. Each spell comes with levels. Those levels show up on your skills list. But it doesn't show whether or not a spell will branch out to another spell. You could get it "mastered" as high as it can go, and practice and practice and get failures, but you don't know for sure if you're "just this close" to learning that new spell, or - if you won't be learning a new spell at all from practicing and failing.

With mundane skills, you not only know whether or not a skill branches to something new, you know WHAT it branches TO.  With magicks, you don't know either of those things. I'm suggesting - that players of mages be informed whether or not one of their spells branches. Not what it branches to, but whether it branches at all.

[Riev]

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

Getting your magick from "level 1" to "level 7" isn't "mastering it". There's still skill that goes with it, like everything else on your Skills list.

I'm suggesting an alternative. Not when you "Mon" a spell, but when you master it skill-wise. When there is no more coded skill for you to succeed.


Not that I specifically disagree with your idea, but this would keep some mystery.

[papertiger]

I'm hopeful that the magic changes and mention of people being able to work up to become leaders of their respective temples will provide a way to learn magic from mentors. I really liked learning it with someone else.

[Lizzie]

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

Getting your magick from "level 1" to "level 7" isn't "mastering it". There's still skill that goes with it, like everything else on your Skills list.

I'm suggesting an alternative. Not when you "Mon" a spell, but when you master it skill-wise. When there is no more coded skill for you to succeed.


Not that I specifically disagree with your idea, but this would keep some mystery.

So you're suggesting (if I'm understanding it right)-

If a spell is mastered, then that means either you've also branched whatever you can branch from it OR - it can't be branched, and it's as good as it's going to get.

If a spell isn't mastered, then you don't get a notice, and you know that there's still more past whatever you've accomplished with it already. So if it can branch - and you don't get a notice, the lack of a notification is your clue that there's something you can branch from it.

Am I understanding that right?


Adding: That seems a bit clunky to me. Since you don't have to "mon" to branch. But if you don't "mon" then by definition - you haven't mastered. I still prefer my suggestion - to simply include in your approval message for your application, that spell A can branch twice, spell B and C can branch once each, and spell D can't branch at all, and it's possible for your element to learn up to 15 spells total.

[dumbstruck]

Power words are not skill level. You can notch up 2-3 power words without ever failing which makes that part obvious. It's rare but it can happen. I think a more logical solution would just be to change how spells display so it's more like:

Code Select Expand

Skills Spells
------------------------------------------------------------------------
firebutt [sul]            [advanced] waterwheels [pav]      [apprentice]


Rather than

Code Select Expand

Skills Spells
------------------------------------------------------------------------
firebutt                        [sul] waterwheels                  [wek]


By any logic, then, by the time you're mastered, 2-3 times, and if it doesn't branch, it's not going to. The email thing feels super convoluted and not as helpful for other people as I think you feel like you might find it. Especially for weird stuff that might branch 4 times deep.

[Riev]

Dumbstruck has what I was talking about. The definition of mastery is different between us two, because you can be codedly "100%" at fireball but still not be able to draw from the highest word of power. Branching is a coded thing dealing with the percentage of mastery, not the ability to draw enough power.


I was just thinking that IF we move to a "You feel you have learned more about [skill]" that maybe we could institute a "You feel you have learned all you can about [skill]" so people know that they can stop "practicing" needlessly.

[mansa]

...


I was just thinking that IF we move to a "You feel you have learned more about [skill]" that maybe we could institute a "You feel you have learned all you can about [skill]" so people know that they can stop "practicing" needlessly.

Ahh.  I understand.  The mundane skill trees are published, so you know that if you're a miscreant, you will branch value from steal, and then you'll branch haggle from value.
( https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Miscreant%20Branching )
But you also know that there's no need to continue to attempt to practice the haggle skill because there's no skill AFTER haggle to branch to.


Is this a need to know when you're at maximum proficiency, or is it a need to know if there's something over the hill, so you keep climbing it?

I don't think it's a need to know your proficiency, it's a need to know there's something beyond the next corner.   And that is a feeling that can lead to disappointment, when there's nothing there.

[cnemus]

I am really happy to see this conversation. I have always had two main complaints about the magick system.

When I was just starting out, I played two fairly long lived magickers that never branched a single spell because the explanation on branching was not public knowledge and no one would educate me IC. I now keep track of all my spell/skill fails to try and math it out, but I don't understand what that adds to the game. I'm all for mystery, but I don't like grinding, particularly mindless grinding that has no benefit when I could be doing something productive or RPing (which also applies to more than just magick). Even if I actively seek out magick RP, MOST of my time on magickers is always solo spell grinding. I sincerely hope we may consider some of the options above with my ultimate ideal being you don't endlessly grind on a spell that is never going to branch anywhere. I particularly like Riev's idea of some indicator that a spell is 'finished'.

My second complaint about magick has to do with components. I feel the help files for spells and components does very little to explain anything relevant in their use. If you know, you know, but if you don't there is no logical way to discover it. I don't like that model of discovery and want to see an IC way of learning available to everyone. I don't know if the NPC that currently tells you [some things] is still around, but that information was not particularly helpful to me beyond a sort of initial base level. One idea: NPCs in the temples that ask for [specific] components and then, upon delivery, tell you what you can do with it.

I hope now is a good time to consider things like this. 

[Lizzie]

mansa understands my interest perfectly.

I don't care whether or not I've mastered a spell. I know I don't have to master a spell, in order to branch the next spell. I just want to know if there is another spell to branch, off of that spell.

If firebutt doesn't branch anything, I want to know as soon as firebutt shows up on my skills list. I might never attempt to use firebutt at all, I might not care about improving it, at all. Or I might want to just get it to pav and stop there. It isn't my concern, at all. My concern is whether or not it branches. If it branches, then I know it's a spell I should work on, whether I intend to use it or not.

Knowing that firebutt doesn't branch anything new is just as useful to me, as knowing that a miscreant can branch value off of steal.  If you don't care about ever stealing anything, and nothing branches off of steal, then there's no need to practice it. But if you want to get the value skill, you know you -need- to practice steal, in order to get it.

For magick, I don't necessarily need to know which spells I'll get when I practice firebutt. I just need to know whether I'll get spells from it, or not get any from it. And I want to know this, before I ever try practicing with it. Just like you know that there are skills that branch from steal.

[shadeoux]

mansa understands my interest perfectly.

I don't care whether or not I've mastered a spell. I know I don't have to master a spell, in order to branch the next spell. I just want to know if there is another spell to branch, off of that spell.

If firebutt doesn't branch anything, I want to know as soon as firebutt shows up on my skills list. I might never attempt to use firebutt at all, I might not care about improving it, at all. Or I might want to just get it to pav and stop there. It isn't my concern, at all. My concern is whether or not it branches. If it branches, then I know it's a spell I should work on, whether I intend to use it or not.

Knowing that firebutt doesn't branch anything new is just as useful to me, as knowing that a miscreant can branch value off of steal.  If you don't care about ever stealing anything, and nothing branches off of steal, then there's no need to practice it. But if you want to get the value skill, you know you -need- to practice steal, in order to get it.

For magick, I don't necessarily need to know which spells I'll get when I practice firebutt. I just need to know whether I'll get spells from it, or not get any from it. And I want to know this, before I ever try practicing with it. Just like you know that there are skills that branch from steal.

This

[dumbstruck]

Yeah, my main interest in seeing the skill levels is that the default branch point for skills is master, but X points below the cap. So I know if I've got it to master and failed it a few times, nothing's coming from it. I don't care for trying to do a trigonometry equations to know it based on a series of numbers in an email. That's clunky as hell, because at best you have to reference something outside of the game for the information. If you're going to bring the information in, why not include it where someone doesn't need to tab out of the game to get to it? If it's trying to serve X purpose, there are a lot simpler ways of doing it, like literally making it display like every other skill in the skill list, rather than as a power word that everyone with any experience knows is independent of your actual skill level. It just drives people like Reiv and cnemus to literally count their fails and stuff, and it's not adding /fun/ for anyone to keep it needlessly complex.

[Riev]

I have FUN counting to 12.

And then getting pissed because the last 3 didn't count because I was overeager.

And then wondering if THIS spell only goes up to a certain point, without letting me know, or if I'm just unlucky.



... There are reasons I'm not asking for a karma review and just staying at what I have. Magick is problematic and best left for people that are better at Blood Magick than I am.

[Agent_137]

For magick, I don't necessarily need to know which spells I'll get when I practice firebutt. I just need to know whether I'll get spells from it, or not get any from it. And I want to know this, before I ever try practicing with it. Just like you know that there are skills that branch from steal.

Yeah I agree.  The benefit of hiding this info is that you force people to either find a mentor ICly or find one OOCly. The cost is a big waste of honest player time.  Many of us are old now. We don't have the time we had in our youth to waste.  And new players come from games with very different, and arguably better, approaches. 

Those that want to seek a IC mentor still could.  But those that don't enjoy practicing a skill in a game for nothing  can just "feel it on the wind" or something. 

When I was a storyteller and someone asked me about branching, I wasn't sure what I could even tell them.  Just animate an npc and be like "blah"? Demand a mini quest plus ritual to give a vision? Just say no?


Even if there's no change to the game itself, a clear rule in the magicker docs that's like "ask your ST for Magick info you want, and they will facilitate FOIC" then it'd  resolve the issue. 

[Lizzie]

After a couple of weeks I did check in with staff and told them something to the effect of: "I've had this spell at mon for a few weeks, and have failed it plenty, but the spell I thought would branch off of it, hasn't branched. Is something broken, or am I doing something wrong?"

The answer was - I was doing something wrong. It branched off a different spell. A couple of RL days later I got that spell I wanted from branching the correct one, which wasn't even at mon yet.

It's a LOT improved from the days before we were given the spell combos. I remember being SO insanely frustrated, writing down all the combos I could think of, after branching a new spell - only to learn that this spell required a different element completely, that wasn't the purview of my character's element. A rukkian trying "wek un drov blah blah" just was - not intuitive at all and there was no help available.