City elf overhaul

[Dresan]

On the note of city elf overhaul, i noticed it is in now progress. Some minor tweaks to city elves have been done like running on roads outside of cities but what does an overhaul look like to the staff?

[Hulrouk]

On the note of city elf overhaul, i noticed it is in now progress. Some minor tweaks to city elves have been done like running on roads outside of cities but what does an overhaul look like to the staff?

These project(s) have really only just begun and aren't in a state where we'd like to promise anything about them as of yet.

I can say that we may not directly translate ideas from feedback threads into the game, but we are using them to determine what goals we should have for elves in Magefall and onward.  So keep feedback and concerns rolling in those threads if interested, but stay tuned for developments!

[Dresan]

I'll take this opportunity to summarize some ideas and offer up a few  new ideas .First let me begin by saying that the game world in general suffers from design ideas that promote segregation instead of integration.

I've explained those ideas here:Design ideas for a smaller scalable world

The reason I am bringing this up is because in the past the usual go to solution for making city elves more playable is start a new elf-only clan. To me, is had always been a terrible ideas, now more so than ever with a potentially smaller player base,. However, usually this idea is brought up mostly because of problematic aspects of city elf documentation, which I propose should change in order to better allow for city elf integration.

Let me take a moment to clarify I am not suggesting that that ignorance and hate between the races disappear, instead I want to promote the hatred, betray and corruption of this game by forcing humans, city elves, etc to have to work together in the same clans, just like they currently have to do in the byn.  Heck, both races should support cities making it illegal for different races to engage in obscenity by forming intimate relationships with each other, though half-elves themselves wouldn't be criminals or illegal to exist they should be stopped and the location of their parents questioned since they would be criminals for having created him (consenting or not). That said, I think further integrations between city elves and existing clans would be more beneficial than segregating them in their own tiny clans.

However, this has not been easy to do, they have great difficulty participating in the clans they can join not just from a coded perspective (crappy stats, no ride) but really a documentation one.

1. They have trust issues(like who doesn't?), and engage in trust tests + they are tight-knit within their tribe.  I think the past has shown that this causes issues within city elf clans and tribes since people won't engage in betray and corruption against their own people. This add little in terms of benefit for the game since who really trust anyone day one, and adds troublesome factors later on once 'trust' within tribe or elf groups is established.
2. They have a fascination with thievery which is supported not only in the documentation but coded. I am sure this was cool once upon a time but thievery is not just hard to do properly from a coding perspective but having virtual things go missing makes players/staff go into rage with staff beginning to watch you to count peeks per hidden emotes and players going to ridiculous lengths to avoid losing their virtual coins. Thief roles and stealing in general is a good part of the game but the role is complex and riddled potential grief from both players and staff, it isn't something that should be tacked on any character carelessly, especially a potentially new player. Not to mention this adds another barrier to just integrating them better into existing content.

Overall, the city elf is needlessly complicated compared to dwarves and half-elves and it further add challenges to helping city elves and the player behind it find their place within the gaming world that adds to it, rather than takes away.The current city-elf documentation is often costing the game additional player made content that should would come from a player taking the time to play and build up any other race. Because someone playing an elf, is one less player that can join certain clans or work with certain people or even become a competent leader. The same cannot always be said about half-elves and dwarves, even if its not the same level as humans, they often have opportunity to shine within any clan they are allowed to join.

The city elf documentation needs to be simplified and current supporting skills code removed so that anyone can pick up the race and can have a unique but fun experience while adding value to the game world. I would remove the two elements from city elf documentation mentioned above. City elves could have friction or  even betrays even between family/tribe, maybe desert elves would be different in this regard but that sort of mentality shouldn't exist in city elves, allowing for more variety when interacting with others even of their own kind.

As for the benefits and bonuses, city elves lose a lot by not being able to ride or get on wagons/skimmers, and their stats though not as debilitating as before still just add to the challenges of playing them. In comparison to others, Dwarves are rather OP in terms of benefits, and there are posts from staff telling people to lay off playing half-elves, outlining that neither of the other races lack players who enjoying trying them.  Lets keep that in mind as I propose these ideas:

1. Perfect night-vision -- This ability would really be interesting, not only would it open up a unique RP experience worth giving up ride for, but it would promote hatred and mistrust between the races. For example, if a crime happens a night it could be blamed on elves, not just thievery but anything really. At the same times, militias and other combat clans would find having them useful for scouting at night or keeping guard at night, even if they had to be a bit more patient with them for travel. You could see some elves people just prefer to do things at night, adding to a creep factor in the eyes of other who shut their doors and windows. While some beings could see at night, not all animals/creatures would be able to do so perhaps it would be safer for city elves to travel/search at night, and imagine slowly adding night time behavior for npcs or creatures over time. All this would begin adding a new unique experience and potential for additional layer to the overall game. It would also be nice to have access to some experiences without needing to be mages.

2. City Elves should recover small bits of stamina while standing around idle ---While not as good as sitting, resting or sleeping it should still happen if they've been standing around long enough (there should delay if they have just moved).  This would help them participate more in clan activities (like the byn) if they are taking their time.

3. City Elves should be better at walking in the wilderness --- Not by much, i think its about 5 stamina cost to walk/move in a desert room. These costs should just be reduced by 1 . Not exactly great but a small improvement over other races. And again this is only walking, not even running....nothing remotely close to what desert elves can accomplish.

4. City elves need the ability to travel between Luirs and Allanak. Whether roads are rebuilt over 50 years or sand becomes more hard packed over well used routes that allow city elves to somewhat use them as city roads....it doesn't matter how but it is the single most annoying aspect of city elves, the inability to participate in common patrols within their existing clans.

Out of the four main ideas I offered above, three are merely lackluster ways for them to participate in content that is open to anyone that can ride mounts or wagons. The only ideas that would open up interesting new and unique experiences with playing a city elves would just be the first. That said, the idea of night vision would just add a wonderful new mundane element to the game not currently easily experienced outside of magick even though torch/stealth comes somewhat close.

These changes don't even have to be a  retcon, there could have  always been a culture of city elves that valued stealing/tribe mentality, but over the last 50 years they could have become the minority, making more general minded city elves the majority and they began taking jobs in various clans who saw some small value in them. Additionally, some city elves always had the ability to see in the dark as part of a random mutation. Over the last 50 years, their births became more common for some reason and so its not all city elves just a healthy portion now that have the ability. Our character would just happen to have been one of those elves born with the ability, its become common knowledge after 50 years but part of the job interviews could ask to make sure the elf they are hiring is one of the 'useful' ones.  Same approach with some elves being better at walking in the wilderness and regening stamina.

One last slightly random idea is that dwarves are resistant to both magicks and poisons(in addition to high endurance) and I really think elves should have some sort of additional resistance. I can see them being resistant to both magick and psionics that targets the mind, beyond wisdom(which is not really great). I won't add this to the above since its wishful thinking, but wanted to write it down anyways.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I like a lot of these ideas. I might also suggest that during Magefall, a few elves gained the "trust" of some prestigious Highborn employer, maybe even because they participated in the defense of or the murder of said mages, and now have limited access to further opportunities, much like mages.

Gameplay wise, I in particular like the night-vision idea, and the idle-stam gain. I dunno about perfect sight, but low-light, like storm-vision, where you see the heights and weights of shapes and maybe know the room's name, but still need to type exits to know where to go.

I wouldn't make most elves shift, but I'd make "rogue" elves possible. If every elven PC is a rogue elf, right on, but most elves would still be the traditional elf. Most NPC interactions with elves would involve traditional elves, and that might be interesting for tribeless elven PCs, typically viewed by the NPC population as false elves, or traitors.

[Dresan]

Code Select Expand

Country roads, take me home
to the place I belong.
Yay, a road!

I would still recommend that staff consider removing the troublesome thief and loyalty elements from their documentation and/or code, bringing them a bit more in line with the other races and allowing them to integrate better into existing groups and clans. Again this doesn't have to be recon, some good ideas above how to achieve this with no impact or re-writes to the world.

I want to also note that in the past classes like infiltrator have skills to compliment city elves race coded skills but since classes should eventually get revamped at some point in the far future it would be best make these changes now. Frankly, peek on infiltrator makes no sense. 

[shadeoux]

Similar to desert elves hide sneak skills in the desert give
City Elves the same (if they don't already get it, My city elves
guild always had started with both). Also give them
palm/plant/steal automagically too if they are to stay in line
with current documentation.

[Dresan]

Just wanted to bring this thread up again.

As more information of the season come out, the more the need to update city elves seems to become.

City elves are in a better place than before, thanks to their ability to run on roads outside of cities, and the construction of a new road which benefits everyone.  However, much of the setting makes it difficult for city elves to access all the content within clans they can join, namely kurac and byn.

This isn't a problem with the current setting, season or plots rather this has always been a problem for city elves. Even content within HRPTs in the past has been tough for city elves to join. Again I want to stress how much making new clans for city elves does not work, bejeweled hand in the north felt so forced and proped up by a specific staff member that without that life support it just crumbles. The rinth elf clan was a painful sad experience too. Instead there are plenty of clans which could change to include city elves like crimson wind and salarr.

Of course, this is assuming a few more steps/tweaks are done to allow city elves code and documentation to allow them to participate in the content these clans can offer. Especially with the direction the season is going, city elves still woefully feel lacking compared to the other karma 1 race options. Since they have become karma class already why not consider just making them karma 2 and improving the overall player experience when using them by bringing them in line with desert elves.

[Roon]

Honestly, I think city elves are fine in terms of their place in the game's culture and so on. They could do with more clans, but other than that, their "lore" is good enough and they have a clear niche as criminals and conflict-drivers for city-based gameplay.

The real problem, and what I think has always held the race back, is this: combat feels awful without high strength, and while that's true of any race (besides HG/mul), elves are unique in that they can't get high strength. It's no secret that the majority of combat characters prioritize strength because it's just so important, and elves don't have that option. All elves are saddled with the "combat sucks without high strength" problem. This deters many players from playing elves, and this in turn keeps the numbers too low for the race to have much impact in the world. Even if you don't technically need elven fighters to get things done, you do need numbers, and the fact of the matter is that players who enjoy combat and care about their characters' prowess tend not to play elves.

Desert elves also have low strength, but their other abilities are much better than city elves. They have perfectly good endurance, they have better racial skills, they can run from one end of the world to the other on one lungful of air, and they're much better suited to use things like archery and poisons which compensate for the awfulness of low-strength combat. Desert elves also tend to have entire regions of the map where they are the de-facto authority, which certainly helps prop them up.

There was a code overhaul recently that nerfed strength and buffed agility, and while that was a step in the right direction, it didn't actually change the paradigm. It remains true that combat sucks without high strength and agility doesn't do enough to compensate. This might not be a problem when fighting NPCs who stand there and stare into space until dead, but city elves don't exactly have a lot of venues for "PvE" combat. It was always a race that revolved around conflict-oriented roleplay - PvP, in other words - at least when we're talking about the race's combat credentials. And PvP melee combat without high strength is an exercise in futility.

This keeps their numbers too low to have a serious presence on the playing field. While you can accomplish many things without the use of combat, elves can't accomplish a whole lot if there's just a few of them around, and that's always going to be the case if every player who enjoys combat goes "ugh, but not with an elf because they suck at it." The race's weakness in combat keeps its PC numbers too low to have a meaningful presence even in non-combat pursuits.

There has always been this weird, misguided notion in this community which brings people to believe that players choose whether to care about combat or roleplay, as if they're two mutually exclusive constructs. They aren't. For many players, they go hand in hand. There aren't two separate games where one is home to players who deal with combat and the other has the players who run plots. In nearly all cases, the latter depends on the former. The ability to leverage coded force against potential threats, enemies or competitors is a huge part of many venues of roleplay. You can do very little if you don't have a way of wielding coded force against anybody, whether that's your own personal might or the power to command others who have that.

The city elf race is the very worst at doing that, which deters many from playing them, and this keeps their numbers too low to get much done. They struggle too much when it comes time to leverage force against anyone because the race is codedly underpowered and socially powerless. Consequently, they can't build plots and make an impact, so they languish in irrelevancy. This is not fixed by giving them bits of flavor here and there. It's fixed by changing the combat code to where players who enjoy combat are not deterred from playing elves because the race sucks ass at it.

[Dresan]

Honestly, I think city elves are fine in terms of their place in the game's culture and so on. They could do with more clans

I disagree with most of what you have stated.

Overall they have benefited from some changes but it was more to do with how absurd strength stat was in this game. Strength is still good but not as good, so now being both strong and agile will net you the best results.

The main problems with city elves is their coded and lore restrictions (ex. thieves who dont ride) make it difficult for them to get involved game content despite the fact that people ingame tend to play them like humans with pointy ears. City elf only clans have historically not done much to help with this and often generate bored players that make it more difficult to play the race, and that is saying the absolute least of the problems with these specific types of clans.

'Let them ride skimmers and wagons' is a solution to the problem, but a lackluster one that spit in the face of what an elf is and also doesn't solve the issues of a player playing the average elf day to day, especially any that are not tied to clans. 

Its a slippery slope and we may someday eventually see 'riding elves' because it was just easier to do and it is something some people do advocate for already. While 'riding elves' would completely solve any issue with city elves it would aslo be a lost opportunity to making this race a unique and fun (not fustrating) experience for players.

We will have to wait and see how these changes work out. Again most of the other changes with clans has been tried before, and people tend to play city elves and treat as they please as evidenced by the mudsex.  However the road change is new, and after some testing there may be opportunity to potentionally expanded on slightly to avoid a future of 'riding elves'.

[Seeker]

I have read through the docs.

Does this signal a potential relaxing of the previous staff position that it was a scold-worthy offense to play a city elf who was regularly playing outside the walls?

That stance from staff bruised my fee-fees.

[Riev]

The way I read it is that, along with other changes, a city-elf who spends most of their time outside is perfectly fine TO PLAY. There may be IC consequences to the behavior and staff are maybe likely to animate something that tries to force a roleplay decision on behalf of the player, but it won't be an OOC slap on the wrist and a comment in your high school permanent record.

So, in exchange for a little more freedom, you may suffer more IC consequences from a staff member who thinks a born-and-bred city elf camping in the Canyons is a bit odd.

[Roon]

Honestly, I think city elves are fine in terms of their place in the game's culture and so on. They could do with more clans

Overall they have benefited from some changes but it was more to do with how absurd strength stat was in this game. Strength is still good but not as good, so now being both strong and agile will net you the best results.

Benefitting from some changes does not mean fixing the problem. One could pay off 10% of children's school lunch debts and they'll benefit but it won't solve the issue. The fact remains that elves cannot be strong and agile. They can only be agile, and that alone is not effective in combat against other players because of the ease of fleeing if someone isn't landing grievous hits. You can attack as fast as you want, but if you're doing nicks and grazes more often than not, you have no way of leveraging your combat power into plot power. Consequently, people know that you're not a threat, and that shuts out nearly all plot channels for the entire race.

For a race that is almost entirely dependent on themselves, it's non-functional to leave them as underpowered in combat as they are. They don't have nobles and templars who can use social power, they don't have the whole world at their disposal like desert elves do, and they don't even appear to have more that one lonesome clan in S1 unless one of the "secret clans" is a city elf setup. This makes it a really big problem that the  race is so codedly weak that many won't play it for that reason alone. It keeps them from ever having enough warm bodies to get a meaningful foothold and a presence that lets them get their point across.

This has been the case since forever. It isn't some new thing. Once in a rare while, an unusually productive player manages to make something happen for a brief window of time; but all in all, in the grand scheme of Armageddon's history, city elves have failed to be relevant and have failed to live up to the fact that they are the second-largest demographic in any settled society. That's not really disputable, to be honest.

[Dresan]

The way I read it is that, along with other changes, a city-elf who spends most of their time outside is perfectly fine TO PLAY.

Techically the staff hasn't needed to penalize desert traversing city elves. Sure, you weren't earning any karma but as long as you didn't ride, you could try to get anywhere.

Its the code that has been effective at discouraging that sort of behavior and still will continue to do so, road or no road. Though some limited work arounds do now exist.

[AKawaiiBear]

They can only be agile, and that alone is not effective in combat against other players because of the ease of fleeing if someone isn't landing grievous hits. You can attack as fast as you want, but if you're doing nicks and grazes more often than not, you have no way of leveraging your combat power into plot power. Consequently, people know that you're not a threat, and that shuts out nearly all plot channels for the entire race.

For a race that is almost entirely dependent on themselves, it's non-functional to leave them as underpowered in combat as they are.

their real weakness is no out doorsing means they can't go grind on absurdly high agi creatures in darkness the same way hunting humans/helves can
nor do they have the strength to carry a tent
if you addressed this (maybe with mobs to grind on in the city idk) they would be fine imho
there needs to be a way to progress combat skills that isn't blindfighting animals in the wilds

[Agent_137]

The split of dark sun elves into a desert race and a city race was a weird choice 30 years ago and imo it's the heart of the issue.  It's a nonsensical RP restriction.  Go read up on dark sun elves. They all have desert run. Some tribes live in cities for a time.  Some don't. It's not a big deal. And it shouldn't be. 

[Dresan]

there needs to be a way to progress combat skills that isn't blindfighting animals in the wilds

Once upon a time indies ruled the world and as is common in this game, it tried to change that and over corrected.

The ability to train outside of a clan has significantly been impacted. I am surpised clan-only blindfolds have not been added to clans, along with an exta waterslide or two.

This is a thread all to itself but the problem of training is not completely limited to city elves, but as usual they suffer the most from it.

[Hulrouk]

I have read through the docs.

Does this signal a potential relaxing of the previous staff position that it was a scold-worthy offense to play a city elf who was regularly playing outside the walls?

That stance from staff bruised my fee-fees.

I'm speaking for me here.

The short answer is:  No, you would not be penalized by me for having a desert-venturing or desert-dwelling city elf.  I would expect that there'd be a very interesting character built up in that concept, though.  I'd be very unimpressed if it ended up being played like any other desert traveler, when that would be a very distinct potentiality for a very good story, and an even better/stranger story if it came about IC instead of being pre-written into a background.

The long answer is that my personal view of it would be incredibly influenced by the context.  A byn elf who rides wagons that he protects can very well inch his way into more and more familiarity and comfort in the desert and is surrounded by guards, warriors, scouts, etc.  An alley rat who would rather brave the wilds to hunt chalton for food than work elfy stuff to get taken care of, find wealth, use influence, etc would be stranger.  An elf who just treated the wilds like any other hunter would be weird.

I think an elf going outside the city steadily, or living outside the city, is likely to have a lot of emotions, feelings, and stimuli that will be very different than the average desert dweller, but the purpose of redoing documentation wasn't to tell you a strict regimen of elven behavior.  It's the backdrop and the norm.  It's the thing your elven mind should be adjusting and reacting to with pursuits and deviations.  But elves have been pigeonholed by mechanics (as Dresan noted) as well as overly aggressive mandates for a long time, making them largely accessible.

I don't think the race needed to change (aside from a couple things that were too rigid for playability concerns).  But I think people did need to understand that they are addressing a very different mentality when they play one, that needs to account to different values.  I think players should be trusted to make interesting characters the same as anywhere else, and those document changes were meant to give guidance in how those variances might interact.  I'd expect this city-elf desert-elf to have all that in mind with their behaviors.

Pull it off well, and I might cheer your name on in quiet circles.  If you can't (and I do think this might be more difficult to play consistently than some might imagine), then I'd likely tell you to try something simpler next time.

One of the first things I'd tell you is that concerns over training your city elf's combat skills being hampered by not being common hunters is probably one of the weakest reasons I could see for the concept.  Similar behaviors could be implemented for half-elves or humans without the elven concerns, so I'd wonder why you wanted it to be an elf to go hunting so badly (This is not an accusation at anyone, just me noting that this concept would likely be more story rich than skill rich).

[Seeker]

Thank you for the detailed response.  This approach from staff seems much more supportive of unique and interesting storytelling with sharpears of any stripe.

Allowing a city elf to quest in an codedly adverse environment to [find a lost father][retrieve clues about their people's distant heritage][punish themselves for their unforgivable sins][etc.] seemed so rich to me.

[Dresan]

I don't think the race needed to change (aside from a couple things that were too rigid for playability concerns). 

At the very least, I think the racial city elf skills still need to be removed. The farther away we move having the game view them as thieves the better.

Despite the announcement, neither the documentation nor the code have moved far enough in this direction.

Other than that, just a bit more effort needs to be put into giving the race the functionality to participate in the game's contents without completely turning them into human riders or desert elves. Again the road code change was a move in the right direction to make the race unique. After some playtesting this season more feedback for small modifications may emerge to further help achieve an incredibly challenging but still fun content-viable race.