Are templars boring?

[Pedigree]

So, I was RPing in a tavern recently, and a couple templars wandered in throughout the RP.  As far as I could tell, I was the only one who acted remotely afraid of the templars.  Everyone else seemed almost bored by their appearance.  Half-heartedly getting to their feet and bowing, ignoring the templars altogether, or calmly approaching the templars with questions.  

Do most people just get used to them, or are they not psychotically killing enough PCs to warrant the fear?  I was under the impression that they'd flip and kill you for the silliest reasons.  Are they really big huggable teddy bears deep down inside?  

[Bestatte]

It depends on where you are, but regardless they're not huggybears.

In the North, it's considered an insult to bow to a templar or noble. The reason for this dates back to the Occupation, when northern citizens were forced to bow to southern nobility. Now that Tuluk isn't occupied anymore, such a gesture is done only if you're trying to be rude on purpose (or out of ignorance if you're a newbie - you'll get gently corrected the first time - or two. After that you're on your own)

In the South, bowing to a templar is considered respectful and proper. However, you have to take certain things into consideration:

1) Where are YOU, specifically, when the templar walks in? Are you facing the bar? If so, you wouldn't see the templar walk in. Are you at the other end of the room? If so, the templar (hopefully) wouldn't notice you all the way "over there" anyway, and the last thing you want to do is draw attention to yourself, so maybe you're better off not seeing him through the crowd.

2) Is the templar just glancing around, as if he's looking for someone? Did he look at YOU? No? Then perhaps it's a good idea to just go on your way and again, not draw attention to yourself. When he looks at you, or summons you, be afraid. Be very afraid.

3) It might not be considered polite to make yourself known to a templar unless you have business with him. Things have changed since I played down that end.

4) There's tons of blue-robed templars all over Allanak. Most of them are VNPCs, with the NPCs a close second, and PCs last. Do you bow to every single NPC templar you walk by on the road? No? Why not? Is it because he's just an NPC? Or is it because he's one of many and you'd never get from point A to point B if you had to stop and bow to them all? Or, is it because you are assuming the road is crowded and wide enough that you and the NPC templar simply don't notice each other?

The point is, take your surroundings - and your place within them, into consideration. You'll probably find the answer to your question there.

[Quirk]

Low-grade templars (blue-robes in 'Nak) are fairly common, as Bestatte says, and unless you're actually crossing their path or speaking with them, you have no need to go all out on bowing to them. Indeed, a templar who entered a huge tavern like the Gaj and insisted that everyone in there bowed would likely have such hubris noticed by his or her superiors and likely be served with a none-too-gentle reminder of his or her lowly status in the templarate. They certainly matter, you certainly don't want to get on their bad side, but on a crowded street people are not going to fall on their face in fear and awe when they pass.

The higher-grade templars are rarer, and attract correspondingly more respect. In Tuluk you still won't see an epidemic of mass bowing, because that's not how their culture works. The red-robes of 'Nak however would cut a wider swathe, and I would imagine most of a tavern would stand and bow to a red-robe in recognition of their rather higher rank.

The highest-grade templars are very rare. Seeing a black-robed templar in 'Nak would probably lead to a lot of people falling on their faces and prostrating themselves as he or she passed. It would be as close as many people ever get to being in the presence of their God-King Tektolnes himself, looking on one of his most trusted servants, and they would react accordingly.

Quirk

[marilla]

Bestatte wrote:

In the North, it's considered an insult to bow to a templar or noble.

This is not quite true. Tuluki Roleplay document states:

With the somewhat recent struggles of the Tuluki people, the prevalent custom of bowing to nobles and templars has declined. During the occupation, many citizens of Gol Krathu were forced to bow to their oppressors. Most of these people only did so out of fear, rather than respect. Now that Tuluk is ruled by the servants of the Sun King, most Tuluki nobles and templars, while knowing full well that they are better than commoners, wouldn't usually feel the need to make people bow to them. They would consider it more respectful for a commoner to show their respect in a more productive manner, such as service to them or their respective house. While bowing isn't expected, it isn't necessarily considered a disrespectful act, either. But if a noble or templar feels that a person is insincere while bowing to them, trying only to curry favor with them, they may take offense (but may or not show it). The people that are usually bowing are servants or someone that is already serving that noble or templar in some capacity, these people are usually not total strangers.

The previous is a fact, the following is my personal opinion:

It can be used as an insult, but it generally it is not. Besides, at least to me, bowing in Tuluk was not trying to touch the floor with your nose. Bowing, unless specified otherwise, would be bending from the waist and shoulders slightly. Similar to a bow you might actually see these days in some places, not all the courtly flair of the other Sunking's Court (Louis XIV of France).

People will have differing opinions on this, which is fine. So do characters. Only way to know is to find out IC.  Watch others and see, but beware it can vary depending on your character too.  

On the Issue of Templars:

They are very, very scary. At least to me. But do I show it? I try not to, for they can smell the fear...The best and only defense is not to be noticed by one, ever. Which may well be what is happening where the original poster was.

[Bestatte]

I stand corrected. Well actually, I'm sitting, but I think it still counts.

In any case, yeah. You're right Marilla, bowing in and of itself would not necessarily be considered an insult, but due to the occupation, it won't be all that common to see (thus the phrasing of "decline" ) .  In the north, it seems much more appropriate to bow your head, respectfully, politely, however. A graceful but subtle sweep of the hand when you step aside to let the templar pass... bunch of dancing hippy freaks that we are <grin>

[Barzalene]

It's easy not to be afraid of a templar...as long as their attention is directed elsewhere. You want to bow enough to keep them from noticing you, not so much that you draw your attention. If you have to do business with a templar you want to conduct it as fast as possible and get away, get away, get away. Life is better when the templars don't know or forget that you exist.

So, if people seem a little blase, they just want to blend in. Be afraid. Be very afraid. (But not so afraid that your pc suddenly has eyes in the back of his/her head. So, yes, as others have pointed out, if your pc is seated at a table s/he might not see a templar arrive. However, when you come face to face with one, you want to remember to bow.)

[Petra]

Well see the problem is the templars themselves.  Sorry guys.  The past several batches of templars that I've encountered struck me as particularly soft.  Pardon if I sound rude but ... is it really that hard to role-playing being a complete asshole?

What I always find unnerving is the depths which some players go to approach realism in their play.  Suddenly you've got 5 people in a tavern all seated at different tables, all emoting crap about how they don't notice any of the other PCs because it's just too crowded.  The end result being, nobody interacts and we're all bored because why?  Because of realism.  Bah.  Sometimes you have to sacrifice that shit and it's the nobles and templars I've come to rely on to surpass the barrier of "It's too crowded for me to notice you in this tavern".  In the days of old if you enter the tavern and no other PC was there except a noble or templar, well 9 times out of 10 they responded to you.  I don't care how you have to contrive the interaction, just do it.  Sadly, the more recent nobles and templars I've encountered do not do this.  Apparently, they are just as happy sitting around pretending not to notice you.  So, all the crazy behind-the-scenes-super-secret-stuff-that-you're-going-to-remind-me-I-don't-know-about notwithstanding, I think a good number of the recent generation of templars could stand to up the cruelty a few notches and stop being softies  :twisted:.

In short, the templars, themselves, have to give you something to tremble about, otherwise, yeah, why should I bother to scrape and bow?  It's their city, and it's their responsibility to ensure the city remains a wonderfully corrupt environment.

[Bestatte]

I for one would -love- to play the bitch-queen templar you describe. Maybe I'll submit the app again after this PC dies. Third time's a charm supposedly.

[Quirk]

In the days of old if you enter the tavern and no other PC was there except a noble or templar, well 9 times out of 10 they responded to you.  I don't care how you have to contrive the interaction, just do it.  Sadly, the more recent nobles and templars I've encountered do not do this.  Apparently, they are just as happy sitting around pretending not to notice you.  So, all the crazy behind-the-scenes-super-secret-stuff-that-you're-going-to-remind-me-I-don't-know-about notwithstanding, I think a good number of the recent generation of templars could stand to up the cruelty a few notches and stop being softies  :twisted:.

There's nothing soft about realistic RP. Indeed, some of the past templars I had interaction with annoyed the hell out of me through such wildly unrealistic stunts as fining every PC in the tavern who didn't bow when they walked in. If you show disrespect to the templar in any conceivable way or thwart their plans, they ought to be harsh, but I'd hate to see the omnisicient victimise-every-PC-especially-if-elven templars come back.

If people want interaction with anybody and everybody, generally they'll sit at the bar. If they don't, they'll take a table. Interaction is there for those who want it.

I don't believe realism being sacrificed for cheap thrills is a good thing. There are realism/playability issues in certain cases, but this is not one of them. I can generally keep my PCs embroiled in plenty of plots as is, and I'm never bored enough to wish some templar would turn twinky and unrealistically choose to give my character a hard time. I like harsh templars, I like corrupt templars, but I don't like omnidirectionally psychopathic templars. If a templar has someone hurt on a whim once in a while, that doesn't bother me, but if they make trouble for every PC they come across I feel they're not playing their character right.

Quirk

[sacac's ghost]

Yeah.. I've submitted a templar idea.. where he thinks he's the next god-king and wants everyone to give him what he wants.
So.. one of you templars die now..

[Petra]

I like harsh templars, I like corrupt templars, but I don't like omnidirectionally psychopathic templars.

Yeah, but you're talking apples and oranges.  Those are such opposite ends of the spectrum.  Pretending not to notice anyone because it's oh so crowded in the room isn't necessarily "good RP".  Of course, picking on anyone and everyone for not instabowing isn't either.

[Quirk]

I like harsh templars, I like corrupt templars, but I don't like omnidirectionally psychopathic templars.

Yeah, but you're talking apples and oranges.  Those are such opposite ends of the spectrum.  Pretending not to notice anyone because it's oh so crowded in the room isn't necessarily "good RP".  Of course, picking on anyone and everyone for not instabowing isn't either.

Why should they interact with random commoners? I still fail to see the problem. If they have a reason to interact with someone, generally in my experience they do. If they don't, then it's not particularly realistic to have them go out looking for people to cause trouble for, whether they pick on everyone or merely a select but random few; it smacks more of abuse of power on the part of the player than of the character. A templar may well notice your entrance, but if there's no reason to haul you over and interrogate you why expect them to do so?

Quirk

[Pedigree]

I agree that the "bitch-queen" templar is a tempting character type.  It must be a fine line between being cruel and harsh enough to truly get more of the terror in other PCs, and being "overly stabby".  I'm sure that killing anyone who looks at you with anything but adoration would be frowned on as well... I'm used to mu*s where death is very uncommon, and even then playing a "bitch-queen" can definitely ruffle some feathers OOCly...

[Petra]

In answer to the original topic of this thread, all I can say is if people aren't afraid of the templarate, only the templar PCs can do anything about that.  If you enjoy sitting around not interacting with others because you feel it's good RP, or because you haven't the creativity to find a reason to speak with a commoner, then go right ahead and remain seated and uninvolved.  But playing a templar means that, by default, there is a certain crowd who is going to label you a twink OOC abuser (even when that's the furthest thing from the truth).  It's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it.

[Naughty Monkey]

I don't think most people 'ignore' templars out of boredom or a sense that they aren't potentially lethal encounters.

It is fairly wise to keep a low profile regarding those who have the authority to outright kill or enslave you, unless they address you personally.  I mean....why call attention to yourself with such as a Templar?  Unless, of course, you're schmoozing or looking for a reason to die.

Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy Templar.   :twisted:

[Just one bastard templar]

I suggest that if you believe templars are "boring," you prove this to yourself ic.  Even under the most innocent of circumstances, I would think that a commoner would not want his/her histories and intents available to be discovered.

To those involved in what I thought was a very non-"boring" event yesterday, you've got one templar's thanks for seeing everything through to resolution.

[Pedigree]

Oh, I certainly don't think they're boring.  It seemed to me that the rest of the people around did, though.  But perhaps I was misreading their attempts to not be noticed, as some here have suggested.

[Ueda]

In responce to Naughty Monkey ... After checking the area for potential onlookers, the something-looking man says "Ya' I heard if a templar talks to ya' ... yer never comin' back ... unless you kiss there feet, and lie your ass off. They can make you do horrible things I heard ... I've even heard they'll do horrible things to you if you say something that displeases them too."

The something-looking man opens his eyes wide at you.

Edited to add ...  (Only applies to Tek')  I think of Black Robes are like an extension of Tek' there litterally a part of him, like his hand, finger, or maybe just fingernail.

I also wanted to add that when I first came to Arm, there was alot of people being thrown in the Arena ... I would love to see that happen again, I would also like to see rumors about the Arena on the IC bored, with the extent to say wha's happening.

IC rumor bored- Arena

Some speculation of a fight, elf, or animals being in the Arena is about to happen and the general populace shuffles there way toward the Arena to see whats happening.

[TheBIGHenchman]

A little note on the events the bastard templar spoke of, I to was happy about how things were played and pleased that my decision to give somebody the chance to play something out rather then use code was the correct one.

Kudos, hope you enjoyed it as much.


Oh, and everybody is correct, 90% of the time your char should be thinking "don'tnoticemedon'tnoticemedon'tnoticeme" When dealing with templars.

[Petra]

I suggest that if you believe templars are "boring," you prove this to yourself ic. Even under the most innocent of circumstances, I would think that a commoner would not want his/her histories and intents available to be discovered.

What does this mean?

[Lazloth]

Who are you to qualify and quantify someone's RP?  If you have a particular vision for how a role can be played then do it.

Well see the problem is the templars themselves.  Sorry guys.  The past several batches of templars that I've encountered struck me as particularly soft.  Pardon if I sound rude but ... is it really that hard to role-playing being a complete asshole?

Why should every member of the Templarate have to be an asshole?  House leaders, Templars, military officers - these are plot-driving agents, not decoration for your tavern sitting.  Having played my share of Joe Somebodies, I am always bothered when someone points fingers and says So-and-so is fucking awful.

Quirk summed my thinking with the original point of this thread.

[Petra]

Hey, chill bretheren.  All I'm saying is if people aren't afraid of templars, only the templars can do something about that, as opposed to trying to rigorously enforce some newly added document.  Likewise, if people aren't afraid of spellcasters, maybe it would behoove those spellcasters to give them a reason to be fearful.

[Petra]

I am always bothered when someone points fingers and says So-and-so is fucking awful.

Wait, when did this happen?

[LoD_Snarf]

I think many of you are confusing respect and fear.

Some of you have said that you wish templars were more iron fisted, playing assholes, and giving everyone a hard time.  That seems like a rather flat and silly character unless the PC has a reason to act that way.  Most templars avoid dealing with commoners unless they are trying to get an answer or disciplining.

Templars, to me, are often like handguns.  You respect them.  You don't mess around, you don't play games, and you don't intentionally try and set them off - especially when they are looking in your direction.  And if you don't respect the templar, you're gonna lose a body part, and you will 'then' experience the emotion of fear.

There is a movie that has a certain scene that I like, which embodies how I would like to see templars played.  I believe it's 'A Bronx Tale', but the mafia leader (who pretty much runs his little section of the world, like a templar) approaches a group of ruffians causing trouble in a bar.  He asks them if there's going to be trouble, and suggests that they calm down.

They agree, but then start causing even more trouble and become disrespectful.  So he tells them all to leave the bar.  They refuse and continue to act on.  So then he quietly walks over to the door, closes it, locks it and turns back to the group.  One man asks, 'What are you doing?" and the man replies, 'Well, you had your chance to leave.  Now...you don't get to leave."

And they proceed to beat the living hell out of every single one.  It was that moment that the gravity of the situation fell upon them.  It didn't require this character to act like a jerk, or walk around with his cock prominantly on display.  Those are petty, and easy emotions to play in my opinion.  To be able to create a truly frightening and powerful character that people respect for a 'reason' is how templars should be played.

They, too, answer to a higher power and if they go about backslapping commoners because they 'wanna play an assshole' they are going to get weeded out pretty fast.  So remember that you are still part of a world that has a system of authority, and there are checks and balances put into play to make sure that the RP (especially of characters who have power over other PC's lives) is sustained and carefully monitored.

LoD

[Bogre]

Well see the problem is the templars themselves.  Sorry guys.  The past several batches of templars that I've encountered struck me as particularly soft.  Pardon if I sound rude but ... is it really that hard to role-playing being a complete asshole?

.

Some templars aren't gonna be totally assholes. They might be happy just to enforce the Highlord's wishes and ease through life.

Perhaps their lazy, got their templarship and decided to coast through life on the fear and respect of the populace, content with living the good life and not necessarily being mean to commoners.