Are templars boring?

[Kalden]

An asshole templar who goes out of his/her way to be a complete bastard reflects badly on the Templarate, the noblility, and drives the commoners wild, just to back up what LoD was saying. Harrassing people makes them angry, not scared. Executing people makes them scared, but even then, you still stir up problems. Best to deal with things privately or somewhat justly in the public eye, and deal harsh justice for a detterent. That's how I see it, even for Allanak Templars. They don't just grab a random person because he looks funny and start bullying him.

I'll also add that I've been very impressed with at least one recent Templar, and he had me shaking in my boots, at least.

[Armaddict]

Erm...it's completely in their power to, Kalden.  Just about the only restriction that would cross -my- mind is messing with affiliated commoners...those who serves noble and merchant houses.  -Those- are the people who affect your job.

And while you may anger one commoner with such acts, realistically, I think that would make the rest scramble in fear.  So long as you don't start something of holocaust proportions, you're going to be safe from the lowborn, I think.

[spawnloser]

Backing up Armaddict, people are thinking too RL here...in Armageddon, if your best friend was executed for something by the Templarate, most everyone will believe that their friend deserved it, because the Templarate is so much better than they are and are right in everything they do.

Still, every Templar, north or south, is a person with a personality...they don't have to be an ass the entire time.  Many of them are not stupid and do realize that sometimes you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[Bakha]

Much of the complaining about Templars being too harsh/not harsh enough seems to be cyclical. Hell, this particular post in this particular thread seems to be one big deja vu. I swear I've seen it a thousand times before.

The problem is, as others have astutely pointed out, that it's a fine line to walk between being ICly feared and respected and being an OOC asshole just for the sake of inspiring fear. I've heard, time and again, people wish for the "good old days" of templars that persecuted and killed in seemingly random fashion. Well, that seems great and all, but if templars did the shit they did back in the "good old days," they'd likely find their PCs retired and their karma docked. Because in the "good old days," they did shit like pull out random elves and behead them for no reason. Pull out random commoners and force them to fork over 1000 'sid or face public execution. Etc. etc. They did this sort of stuff constantly. Yes, it inspired fear. However, it wasn't terribly realistic, nor was it terribly interesting.

That being said, I'm not saying that Templars shouldn't strive to inspire fear in the hearts of the commoners. I'm just saying that the playerbase should try to understand and acknowledge the divergent pulls that Templar players must face between realistic restraint and excess of evil.

It's just not that easy to balance, sadly.

[Delirium]

Still, every Templar, north or south, is a person with a personality...

I think some people tend to forget that.. often. It's important to remember that while a Templar is a Templar, it is still a character, a person with motives, likes and dislikes, and reasons and experiences all their own. Not that your characters should buddy up to them and forget their place, but OOCly, try to remember that a Templar is not just a walking automaton of justice/injustice.

[Rindan]

First off, there is nothing wrong the discussion of RP.  If someone doesn't like a certain style of RP, this is the place to talk about it.  That isn't elitists, that is just an attempt to work out differences and head towards a common vision.  The complaint that Templars are not harsh enough is a perfectly valid opinion.  I don't share it, but people shouldn't start shitting on people for posting their opinion.

On the topic itself, I personally do not like maniacal characters.  I hate fantasy novels with Evil Lords of Darkness, Evil, Being Dark and Evil, and Eating Small Children.  To me, purely 'evil' characters simply come off as being flat and one dimensional.  They do not seem at all realistic to me and generally pull me out of the environment.  Armageddon is one big gray world, and that is one of the things I love best about it.  I love that there is no good or evil, black or white.

I am not suggesting that templars should not be scary bastards.  I just have little desire to see purely evil and maniacal templars wandering the streets.  A templar should uphold a certain level of fear around them.  Half of their power is the fear they create.  However, throwing about this weapon at random is just foolish and likely to get them in trouble.  The point is to strike fear into people that do not do as the templerate wishes.  Harassing people at random does not accomplish this.  Templars don't want people to consider themselves screwed if a templar looks their way.  They want people to be afraid, but be confident that they will get out alive so long as they do nothing to cross the templar.  A 'good' templar in my mind would be 'fair' with people who do their duty to city and god-king and brutal to those who do not.  Further, if we are talking about a southern templar, I could very well see them making public examples out of people who do disobey them.  The goal is to strike fear in noncompliance, not fear of random assault and harassment.

That is not to say that there will not be exceptions and deviations from this ideal.  Perhaps a templar might get off on doing things just to be cruel, but such a templar should be mindful of the larger hand above them.  A templar that is stirring up malcontent and whacking commoners who might have ties to the power structures within the city is asking for trouble.

[Kalden]

That is exactly what I was trying to say, Rindan.  And I agree, we can have a few outright bully templars around, but throwing your weight around for no reason doesn't strike me as something you would learn in Templar school, so it wouldn't be the ideal.

[Supreme Allah]

Ugh. I hate it when strings like this pop up and a person or two comes up with the idea that character type X should play exactly like this or that, period.

As spawnloser wisely said, templars (like nobles, like commoners, like merchants, like the vast majority of PCs on Armageddon) are people. Being that people have a tendency to be unique, though conformative beings, no two templars should be exactly alike. Not every templar is or should have to be the aforementioned "bitch-queen". Frankly, I think a templar played that way would strike me as, just as Rindan stated, incredibly boring and one-dimensional - no offense intended to Bestatte, of course, but I'd be a little disappointed if our current stock of templars didn't have deeper, more realistic character concepts than this.

As far as the rather dull, "Every room entered should have every PC flick their stand;bow;sit macro OR ELSE!" complaint - I don't get it, honestly.

Why would a high and mighty Templar of the Sun King/Highlord want to bother giving so much of his valuable attention to every random, expendable piece of common filth that sets eyes on him? Disagree? Well, then consider that along with every PC you're threatening for failing to bow the moment you set foot in that tavern, you should be threatening about two to three dozen more busily-yapping VNPCs that were turned the other way or on the other side of the room. Looks like you've got quite a task ahead of you there, Lord Templar Omniscient.

And if you think any current roster of southern templars are softies, then hey, I've got an idea - address one and have bowing "slip your mind". Or, hey, this works for the North, too: try just casually calling them by their first name with a stupid grin on your face.

See what happens, tough-guy.

(edited a couple times cause I wrote it on precisely zero hours of sleep in two days)

[Bestatte]

Actually, I haven't ever seen the "bitch-queen" concept that I have in mind yet. Granted I haven't been playing Arm for as long as so many of you, and my experiences playing in the south are limited to maybe around 7 or 8 months combined...

I've seen one or two that come close, but nothing quite like the concept I had. I won't explain, sorry, but it's an actual app and I don't want everyone and their brother to know it's me if it ever gets approved

[creeper386]

As far as the rather dull "every room entered should have every PC flick their stand;bow;sit macro OR ELSE!" complaint... I don't get it, honestly. Why would a high and mighty Templar of the Sun King/Highlord want to bother giving so much of his valuable attention to every random, expendable piece of common filth that sets eyes on him? Disagree? Well, then consider that along with every PC you're threatening in that tavern, you should be threatening about two to three dozen more busily-yapping VNPCs that were turned the other way or on the other side of the room. Looks like you've got quite a task ahead of you there, Lord Templar Omniscient.

This was the norm for templars when I first started in the South. It was annoying, unrealistic and overly grandly stupid. Now currently, I've yet to see any recent templars or nobles, or even any in the last six months get on someone for not bowing when they entered. Which is a good thing.

The bad thing. At leave every time a templar enters there is still several players that see a templar, stand up, bow, and sit down. No matter where they are. Not only does this add nothing to the game, is unrealistic most the time... It creates an IC comfortable situation for people that don't stand up and autobow. So unless you have a reason to notive every fucking templar and noble that walks in when your sitting all the way acrossed a busy fucking tavern. You probably should be standing up and bowing as I'm sure there are virtual templars and nobles as well. If templars back in the day were expected to treat virtuals equal for unrealistic actions, you probably should to.

Sum everything up, if you are still autobowing just to autobow, out of some fear the templar players from a year back or so created, STOP IT.


Creeper

[Pedigree]

The bad thing. At leave every time a templar enters there is still several players that see a templar, stand up, bow, and sit down.<snip>Sum everything up, if you are still autobowing just to autobow, out of some fear the templar players from a year back or so created, STOP IT.

I did this at first, the 'autobow' sort of thing.  Not out of fear of older templar players that aren't around anymore...but because I'm new to the game, and the help files led me to believe I'd get a blade in the gut if I didn't.  

This thread wasn't intended to complain about the existing templars...just more of a "am I the only one noticing this?" sort of thing.  It seemed to me the other players around the templars were being overly nonchalant when templars were about.  But I suppose it's mostly trying to avoid notice, rather than "I'm too tough and cool to be scared of _anyone_", which is how it was coming across to me.

[creeper386]

But I suppose it's mostly trying to avoid notice, rather than "I'm too tough and cool to be scared of _anyone_", which is how it was coming across to me.

It's also more off a, I don't have business with them, I don't want to attract their attention. They don't have business with me, I hope they don't want my attention. At least thats my take.

And I've still yet to see anything in the documentation that autobowing to templars and nobles is how it should be. See, these taverns are filled with LOTS of people. Probably fairly large places. When sitting all the way acrossed the room your unlikely to see or even know about a templar entering. Unless the whole room starts bowing, and unless every single commoner bows whenever they see a templar, thats unlikely to happen. I could see polite head bows and such when they have to pass near to the templar to leave and such. But unlikely a whole room stands up and bows.


Creeper

[X-D]

When sitting all the way acrossed the room your unlikely to see or even know about a templar entering

I do not agree with the room auto-bow, But I think you are completly incorrect there Creeper. I tend to go into lower class bars, places where on the busy nights 60-200 people are there (depending on size) And If a single cop walks in You notice in seconds, no matter where you are or what you are doing, there is a general wave of pause and look that spreads like a ripple from the entrance across the room.

And this is just a cop, Not a Templar of a god-king who holds the life of any commoner in his hands, somebody who for the most part need NOT answer for his actions, and thats just a blue robe. Oh, You would know, it would be A habit to keep one eye on the door, simply from growing up hearing stories of what happened to people who did not know a templar was behind them.

[Carnage]

When sitting all the way acrossed the room your unlikely to see or even know about a templar entering

I do not agree with the room auto-bow, But I think you are completly incorrect there Creeper. I tend to go into lower class bars, places where on the busy nights 60-200 people are there (depending on size) And If a single cop walks in You notice in seconds, no matter where you are or what you are doing, there is a general wave of pause and look that spreads like a ripple from the entrance across the room.

And this is just a cop, Not a Templar of a god-king who holds the life of any commoner in his hands, somebody who for the most part need NOT answer for his actions, and thats just a blue robe. Oh, You would know, it would be A habit to keep one eye on the door, simply from growing up hearing stories of what happened to people who did not know a templar was behind them.

You don't live in a military state and see cops on every street corner or block. Comparing our world to Zalanthas with this is apples to oranges.

[X-D]

And that is my point exactly, in a military state, where you have to worry for you very -life- if you do anything that offends one of these enforcers, you would be -VERY- aware of where the hell they are at. And those that aren't, well, at least stupidity does kill in zalanthas.

[creeper386]

Eh, perhaps you would notice. Perhaps you wouldn't. I still think it's unlikely, and I'm guessing the numbers in a Zalanthan bar are probably up at your max number except during the slowest points.

But also, in Allanak at least, blue robes, even your normal low level noble isn't too uncommon in the taverns. Cops IRL to my knowledge at least don't ussually make a habit of frequenting bars. Taverns in a place of Zalanthans would be less like a bar IRL, they aren't just a place to go to get drunk. Probably one of the major socializing place ... It's just alittle different then your average place to drink and dance that is common now of days. There are alot of differences. Combined that with poor lighting even on the brightest of days. As windows are expensive and get broke often. Torches and even lanterns tend to put out as much smoke as light... Blah blah blah. Even a dimly lit bar now of days is pretty well off on lighting.

Over all, things are alot different. And it doesn't really matter to much rather you notice them or not. Just the fact that however you cut it not everyone is going to get up and bow at every time a low level noble or templar comes into a room. Perhaps everyone should stand up and offer greeting everytime a very rich and influencial merchant comes into a tavern? They have lots of money. Also can easiely make your life terrible at the blink of an eye... Oooh... But no. It's just the fact that most people have this huge OOC fear of losing their character to a templar and they use autobowing as some sort of excuse to not get noticed or something... It's annoying to see. Again, STOP IT.

Creeper

[sacac]

the tavern ingame are more like the wal*marts and safeways.. and what are those other ones? Townhall for americans.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Scrolling through this thread, I thought templars were getting extremely lucky.  Then I realized the word people were using was auto-bow.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Haha.

[Anonymous]

I found Jolly's comment amusing as well, but back to the topic at hand.

First of all, no one has the right to dictate someone else's RP.  It's an arrogant and selfish thing to do.  It's expected on the GDB that we point out what we would do in a similar situation, or why you think others should act a certain way, but to tell people to 'STOP IT' in reference to an action that the poster thinks is fairly common leaves a pretty bad impression of the poster.  Blanket statements like that are unlikely to change someone's RP - in fact, it's liable to make them listen to you less.

On a positive note, I thought that X-D's example was very insightful.  I can still see arguments for ignoring templars when they enter a bar, but X-D is quite correct -- I always notice cops when they enter my bar.  The buzz of conversation doesn't die, but derails slightly as people point out surrreptitiously that the law in the house.  Does this mean that cops are a perfect analogy to templars?  Well,  no.  Cops have a lot more rules to live by than templars, and aren't in the habit of torturing people because they have a bad day.  Templars seem somewhat more accessible than cops, assuming that you don't fuck with them... a templar, approached with the right information, can make a snitch's life much smoother.  Perhaps even buying that next knot of spice for the addict.  And, of course, I have yet to hear a templar refer to a commoner as 'sir'.

Am I pro-bowing or anti-bowing?  Well, I think that anyone who has any kind of connection with the templar should bow.  This lets the templar know that they've noticed them, they are a good lackey, etc.  Others bowing would be in a templar's periphereal, but they -could- take it out on people, especially if they looked at them and then didn't bow.  Let the templars dictate the RP.  If they don't care, commoners won't bow as much.  If they go hardcore on someone's ass for ignoring them, well, it's a lesson to us all.

--A guest.

Post-Script: Templars don't just show up from the stork.  They have a measure of trust from the imms, who basically dictate the environment.  It should be no surprise that not just anyone can suddenly cast spells through the grace of Tektolnes himself.

[I Have Steel]

I remember thinking the PC Templar were too soft...

That is until with a former character, I bowed before one in the street, and she so kindly glared at me, marched her glorified ass over, grabbed my char by the ear, jerked her foreward, and let her have a full list of every bad thing she had done wrong recently, and how it was conflicting with her opinions...

After living through that moment of rp that gave me the chills... You'd of thought my character had rubber knees and sand in her eyes everytime a Templar was near.  :lol:

[sacac]

nothing is scary as A templar looking scared of you, They are bound to pull a dagger, test you for magicker, then rip off your head, while laughing at your insubordination.

[Lord Soft]

When a Templar walks into a bar, is there a reason for him or her to notice the commoners? If they're looking for a commoner then sure, they'll notice the commoners , but other then that why would they want to notice individual commoners? After all, it's possible to check to see if anyone is breaking the law without commiting everyone's mdesc and clothing to memory.

I've found commoners aren't drawing attention to themselves EXCEPT by fucking auto-bowing. A fucking commoner CHASED me to auto-bow. I find this highly unrealistic. If every commoner CHASED me to bow then I wouldn't be able to get 1 room away.

On the other hand. If people want to auto-blow me I won't mind.

Despite people auto-bowing, they still manage to get away before I get out a single emote. Other people just spam walk past me. If you want to interact with me and if you want me to scare you, your going to have to stop spam walking right past me. Having said that, it's just as likely I won't notice you. OOCly if you want me to notice you, emote out you walked closeby me and your more likely to get in my line of sight.

[Anonymous]

On the other hand. If people want to auto-blow me I won't mind.

emote scrambling to her knees at %templar grand entrance, @ crawls hurriedly towards !templar, scurrying like a frenzied rat until she disappears under ^templar robes
tell templar (voice muffled by sounds of licking) Sure hope this is okay, M'lord! Just thought such a fine civil servant such as yourself could use his knob polished, go 'head with your fine self.
emote appears from under %templar robes long enough to wink at !templar and then disappear again into the folds of black robe