Idle armageddon class discussion

[Jihelu]

It's like the cousin of Random Armageddon thoughts but I got that locked years ago.

It's been like what, 3 years, since the new classes?

What are your thoughts on them?
Hot takes on the system overall?
Absolutely dog shit takes on the system?
The most common luke warm takes you can find?


The classes I've played to the point where I'd consider myself 'experienced' in them are pretty short.
I played a successful Miscreant, only thing I can think of is that Haggle comes into the game way too late (I was like day 15 before I even got it and I stole A LOT)

I played an Enforcer for like less than 3 days played, never got sap because I don't grind combat that hard. I have to say, as my first T1 combat experience....damn T1 combat is good.
I played a scout to like 5 days or more, I think, before dying due to greed and stupidity. It's very ranger-esque, if you want a 'This is a ranger' you go Scout or Stalker I guess (Never played a stalker)

I played a long lived Artisan but I don't consider the T5 classes as things you have to 'master', it's just crafting. If you can't figure out crafting ...I don't know (Except Armor repair --> armor making, apparently??, I've never had to do that grind)

My favorite class by far is Miscreant. The T3's in general are very good. Very Very good. They do everything I want them to do (And they usually have climb, and forage food, and I love both). T3 combat reminds me of starting burglar/pickpocket and grinding in the Byn.


I think the current class system, with the current subclass system, makes the class system as good as it'll get without a class-less system.

[Inks]

I think they are all pretty awesome. My faves are Miscreant (with anything mundane or magick) for skullduggery and Laborer for general peasantry (with either Ruk touched if a rogue or a climbing sub).

I don't like to play Stalker or Scout because I find them too easy just like I didn't enjoy OS Ranger back in the day. And no dedicated crafters (Laborer soldier etc are great). Not knocking them Scout and Stalker are really great especially on rogues of course which is why 80% of rogues are these, just not my bag.

The improvements to the mundane subs improved my perception of the state of the game in general.

[dumbstruck]

I think some of the current classes are good, some of them are terrible, and most of them tow a line between.

I feel like its terrible game design to make all of your crafting classes but one have absolutely shitty tactics or eternal waits required to branch their stuff as a way to incentivize that class (really, the best part of artisan is that you don't have to behave unrealistically in this ROLEPLAY INTENSIVE GAME to branch? how could that possibly encourage twinkish behavior?) I mean, they're artisans. The obvious 'benefit' would be giving them an extra custom craft per month, also fixing the 'GMH crafter issue' of them taking your 1 custom craft a month if you pick an artisan because you'd still have one for your own ideas.

I feel like some of the choices are just bizarre. You take what bills itself as "light mercantile" - 2 of 3 classes get haggle but not the third - where that seems to be replaced with.... mount taming? For mercantile and you get neither custom crafting nor value nor haggle? (looking at you Adventurer, it's mercantile, switch mount taming for haggle, even if it's only apprentice, it's billed as a Mercantile class, make it make sense)

I also feel like it's very strange as a stylistic choice that 2 of 3 heavy crafting get brew but artisan doesn't. Really, they're the best crafter but they can't craft soap and candles? Sorry Kadius.

And I like that all the heavy crafting classes can now branch a weapon skill at some point but I remember when crafters could flee, and I feel like that maybe makes more sense for someone whose default is making shit and running from fights than weapon skills that are mid at best.

It feels like the 'framework' was designed, and then people tried to fill it in even when they realized that it didn't necessarily work well, and rather than change it to narrow down the number of classes offered so that they made more sense as individual classes, they went for the overall framework, and the individual classes were... well, like I said, there are a few that are really good. And I'm sure the statistics bear out which ones those are.

I really like dune traders. The fact that their skills are good being literally intentionally sabotaged by their branch path to 'equalize' it with artisans speaks to a lack of creativity for how to make artisans good, considering that 85% or so of their skills overlap. Many people have expressed similar frustrations over the course of months with this.

I like that artisans don't require ridiculous things for your crafter to do cool craftery things but I think it really sucks for people who play them that they completely lack perks and are the only heavy crafting class that can't make soaps and candles and incenses and some perfumed oils and the like. That's not even cures, but those are all handled by the brew skill which they absolutely should have and do not, probably for again, artificial balance reasons that just kind of make the play experience shittier if you'll pardon my bluntness. And it seems especially relevant considering even right this moment there's another thread that just got opened about the difficulty for mundanes and has a former admin weighing in on how hard coping with the poisons changes is for people.

Outside of that, stalker I love, but I hate that you trade basic combat survivability for relatively low level opening npcs for not spending RL days of your life trying to branch wilderness stealth in order to get around. It doesn't feel like it respects the time of the player. Scout is easier to start play with but lacks utility and craft options that make it enjoyable the first few days you have an easier to survive getting through. If it was me, I'd combine the two. Same with pilferer and fence. People often complain that it's strange and silly that another class is a better fence than the actual fence. That's not even my own personal complaint.

[Jihelu]

My only complaint with fence is that nothing about it makes them a good fence, other than haggle (Every other merchant-y type gets it except adventurer) and pick making (This doesn't make you a good fence, it just makes thieves love you). It feels like there's some weird hidden criminal black market skill that should exist but just doesn't.

[mansa]

There is a thread that was started by Brokkr here:

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58111.0.html

He stated that he wanted to shrink the classes down to 9, and he gave them silly names for the experiment:
Melee Master - Hands down best in Melee combat
Agent 47 - Oriented towards killing quickly and silently
Melee hunter - Like an ancient Egyptian Pharoah, you hunt down your prey and stick it with your spear
Melee Crafter - Can fight and make things, but not at the same time
Sticky Fingers - Otherwise known as elves, can steal everything not nailed down and some of that as well
Bow Hunter - Great at hunting from range, mediocre up close, great live off the land type making what they need
Faire Maker - Never know what you are going to find, they seem to be able to make just about anything
Criminal Maker - Otherwise known as the accomplice, makes city/criminal stuff, pretty good perception/stealth
Tribal Maker - Can make stuff useful to their tribe and has skills allowing them to traverse the wilderness

I took the idea and put it into an image:



As-far-as-I-Know, the current class structure was a project started by Nergal and picked up and implemented by Brokkr. 

I've personally enjoyed the new classes, but I think there are too many of them to have a "class" identity, based on the number of mundane skills available, so I think we should cut out a couple of them.

I felt that the old classes had too many "rogue" groupings, and not enough "fighting" or "crafting" groupings. 


I think, in terms of branching skills - players need to realize that there's a planned character progression and expected branch date for most skills.

I believe it's expected to branch some skills at 10 days playing time, and others at 20 days playing time, and others at 50 days playing time.  This is to artificially restrict the progression of player strength and economic power.

[dumbstruck]

There is a thread that was started by Brokkr here:

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58111.0.html

He stated that he wanted to shrink the classes down to 9, and he gave them silly names for the experiment:
Melee Master - Hands down best in Melee combat
Agent 47 - Oriented towards killing quickly and silently
Melee hunter - Like an ancient Egyptian Pharoah, you hunt down your prey and stick it with your spear
Melee Crafter - Can fight and make things, but not at the same time
Sticky Fingers - Otherwise known as elves, can steal everything not nailed down and some of that as well
Bow Hunter - Great at hunting from range, mediocre up close, great live off the land type making what they need
Faire Maker - Never know what you are going to find, they seem to be able to make just about anything
Criminal Maker - Otherwise known as the accomplice, makes city/criminal stuff, pretty good perception/stealth
Tribal Maker - Can make stuff useful to their tribe and has skills allowing them to traverse the wilderness

I took the idea and put it into an image:



As-far-as-I-Know, the current class structure was a project started by Nergal and picked up and implemented by Brokkr. 

I've personally enjoyed the new classes, but I think there are too many of them to have a "class" identity, based on the number of mundane skills available, so I think we should cut out a couple of them.

I felt that the old classes had too many "rogue" groupings, and not enough "fighting" or "crafting" groupings. 


I think, in terms of branching skills - players need to realize that there's a planned character progression and expected branch date for most skills.

I believe it's expected to branch some skills at 10 days playing time, and others at 20 days playing time, and others at 50 days playing time.  This is to artificially restrict the progression of player strength and economic power.

I don't recall having seen that post by @Brokkr before but what I can say toward that is that I really like the changes on that, but I wish that with the many rich musical traditions of many real life tribes, and how far most of the tribes in game are from wood, I would really like to see instrument making not gated branches two deep beyond lumberjacking if the goal is them making items for their tribe if we are striving to emulate realism and representation of tribal culture with the class. Otherwise, that looks like a much more reasonable set of branch paths in most of the classes as far as I can tell (though I am looking through the lens of someone who primarily plays wilderness tribals, crafter and rangery types, so my input skews toward experience with gameplay in those type roles). Thank you for the link, @mansa and much appreciated.

[mansa]

I don't recall having seen that post by Brokkr before but what I can say toward that is that I really like the changes on that, but I wish that with the many rich musical traditions of many real life tribes, and how far most of the tribes in game are from wood, I would really like to see instrument making not gated branches two deep beyond lumberjacking if the goal is them making items for their tribe if we are striving to emulate realism and representation of tribal culture with the class. Otherwise, that looks like a much more reasonable set of branch paths in most of the classes as far as I can tell (though I am looking through the lens of someone who primarily plays wilderness tribals, crafter and rangery types, so my input skews toward experience with gameplay in those type roles). Thank you for the link, @mansa and much appreciated.

The goal of the branching path is never realism.

The goal of the branching path is to put the most profitable and powerful skills behind branching so that characters don't immediately max out their bank accounts or start killing other characters - that it takes time, effort, roleplay, and interactivity with the playerbase to get to the best skills in the game.

[Jihelu]

I also assume or would hope the paths are designed to encourage help from other players.

Example: You have tanning, but no skinning. Oh no however will you fix this! Do you, barter for hides from fellow players to branch skinning, make friends with someone to get free or super cheap skins, or just haggle them from a vendor?!?

[Nacria]

I don't recall having seen that post by Brokkr before but what I can say toward that is that I really like the changes on that, but I wish that with the many rich musical traditions of many real life tribes, and how far most of the tribes in game are from wood, I would really like to see instrument making not gated branches two deep beyond lumberjacking if the goal is them making items for their tribe if we are striving to emulate realism and representation of tribal culture with the class. Otherwise, that looks like a much more reasonable set of branch paths in most of the classes as far as I can tell (though I am looking through the lens of someone who primarily plays wilderness tribals, crafter and rangery types, so my input skews toward experience with gameplay in those type roles). Thank you for the link, @mansa and much appreciated.

The goal of the branching path is never realism.

The goal of the branching path is to put the most profitable and powerful skills behind branching so that characters don't immediately max out their bank accounts or start killing other characters - that it takes time, effort, roleplay, and interactivity with the playerbase to get to the best skills in the game.

Does this system actually work though?

Or does it just create a class of power players that have six hours a day to put into the game?

[dumbstruck]

I don't recall having seen that post by Brokkr before but what I can say toward that is that I really like the changes on that, but I wish that with the many rich musical traditions of many real life tribes, and how far most of the tribes in game are from wood, I would really like to see instrument making not gated branches two deep beyond lumberjacking if the goal is them making items for their tribe if we are striving to emulate realism and representation of tribal culture with the class. Otherwise, that looks like a much more reasonable set of branch paths in most of the classes as far as I can tell (though I am looking through the lens of someone who primarily plays wilderness tribals, crafter and rangery types, so my input skews toward experience with gameplay in those type roles). Thank you for the link, @mansa and much appreciated.

The goal of the branching path is never realism.

The goal of the branching path is to put the most profitable and powerful skills behind branching so that characters don't immediately max out their bank accounts or start killing other characters - that it takes time, effort, roleplay, and interactivity with the playerbase to get to the best skills in the game.

Does this system actually work though?

Or does it just create a class of power players that have six hours a day to put into the game?

And encourage behavior to branch regardless of if it's realistic when the admin have clearly stated that the desired gameplay behavior is realistic. If that is what you want, that is what you need to design toward.

[Armaddict]

Branching exists in pretty much every character-building game in existence.  It's just not as 'mystifying' when it's levels and prerequisites instead of a branching path.

[Dune Bunny]

I haven't played every class to be able to give a full impression of things, but I have had a blast with Dune Trader and Scout (even though I keep dying for doing dumb dumb things ahead of my skill level! XD ).

I feel like some class could be absorbed into others for sure, but that seems to be something already in the works. I also, personally, think that picks are a little too easy to come by now, though it's probably better than it used to be when it was near impossible. Assume guilt when you find them on folks, soldiers and Templars of the Known. 

I guess my only real gripe is the Armor Repair --> Armor making grind on some classes, but to my understanding, armor repair has been getting worked on to not be such a wonk fest, so I'm cool with that. Other than that, I haven't really played any of the new classes and felt like I hated it. Sub-guilds tend to be able to shore up any missing things I need rather well when they work with my concept.

[Kavrick]

Most stuff is pretty well balanced and nice. I wish stalker got a few more unique things to make it unique compared to scout. Both dune trader and fence could use a look at, dune trader as absolutely god-awful branching and I don't think a class should be balanced by having an unenjoyable branching experience. Fence just needs some love, I love the idea of it but it has a lot of strange stuff. It gets steal skills, but not nearly high enough to actually be used, it's a class you'd want to play in the rinth, yet it doesn't get climb. Also I'll point out that for some reason, pilferer gets bowmaking while fence doesn't.

Other than that, give craftsperson parry so there's actually a reason to play it and remove all branching that comes from weapon skills. Because why.

[Lotion]

dune trader branching is so bad

bringing a good climbing mount to explore mountainous areas is really cool BUT sometimes there's random rooms flagged as nomount and you have to go through a really long circuitous route through 30+ rooms to go back up a cliff you just climbed down

a lot of climb rooms only have up/down when east/west would be reasonable as well. a great example of this is the shield wall.

starter shops are grossly inconsistent in how they are navigated and what they contain. only luir's has bandages. some shops are missing some weapon styles. i don't think a starter shop should have good quality stuff but it should have stuff to fit the coded needs of characters along with random fluff
imo each shop should at a minimum have
* heavy armor for every slot (one of bone, wood, obsidian, etc)
* light armor for every slot (one of leather, padded cloth, etc)
* a one handed and two handed weapon of every type (stabbing, piercing, slashing, chopping, bludgeoning)
* a skinning knife (except in the rinth)
* various wearable containers (neck, wrist, waist, hooked to belt, shoulder, back, etc.)
* face obscuring items (hoods, facewraps, etc.) (shout out to the burlap hood in the rinth that item is super pog)
* multiple types of cloaks (container+can be closed/opened, not container+can't be closed/opened, etc.)
* a nice variety of clothes and other fluff
* sunslits/storm mask everywhere except the rinth

pilferer is an overpowered class
bash and disarm are super underrated by players. there is a very good reason why only enforcer/raider/fighter/soldier/laborer get it from main guild and none of them have wilderness quit.


Moderated by Kestria - Due to in game spoilers.

[Narf]

starter shops are grossly inconsistent in how they are navigated and what they contain. only luir's has bandages.

Moderated by Kestria - Due to in game spoilers.

I suppose a new player wouldn't be aware, but virtually all cloth items can be turned into a functional bandage-item with the salvage command.

[papertiger]

starter shops are grossly inconsistent in how they are navigated and what they contain. only luir's has bandages.

Moderated by Kestria - Due to in game spoilers.

I suppose a new player wouldn't be aware, but virtually all cloth items can be turned into a functional bandage-item with the salvage command.

Is it skill based? Ive tried this and got nothing.

[mansa]

I suppose a new player wouldn't be aware, but virtually all cloth items can be turned into a functional bandage-item with the salvage command.

Is it skill based? Ive tried this and got nothing.

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Salvage

Salvage                                                                  (Trade)
This command allows your character to attempt to salvage an object, creating raw
materials useful for a variety of tasks. The salvaged object is always
destroyed, similar to how the junk command behaves, but the process is more
time-consuming than merely destroying an object. The amount of salvaged material
produced varies based on several factors. Objects that are too small or of poor
quality may provide nothing useable.

As of now, not all objects can be salvaged. You will not lose your object when
attempting to salvage an object of an unsupported material.

Syntax:
salvage (item)

Example(s):
>salvage cloak
You begin salvaging.
...
You tear apart a red sandcloth cloak and produce a useful piece.

Notes:
Due to their poor quality, salvaged materials can only be crafted into very
crude items. However, they are also useful for repairing armor and other tasks.

See Also:
junk

[papertiger]

I've enjoyed the classes in my short time here. They seem to encourage dramatically different characters. I've found it a bit tough to pinpoint just what I'm after sometimes and have felt frustrated with a few things, but its still felt like things were done with the intention of balance. I like being able to slightly tweak my character with a subclass.

[Pariah]

I do wish Salvage worked more, it's sorta silly you have a cloak for instance that covers your whole human form, you salvage it and get one piece...Get the fuck outta here.

[Triskelion]

Disclaimer: none of this is information that hasn't been announced by staff. It's all on the public record, no secrets that can't be discussed on the forum.

The classes differ in how fast they increase their offense and defense, and how high these skills are to start with. It feels like the ones with high defense have a big advantage over high offense. Defense doesn't 'plateau' the way offense and weapon skills do, so having a higher chance to gain defense is useful forever whereas a higher chance to gain offense is only relevant until you stop missing attacks against the things you fight regularly. Higher starting offense just makes this occur earlier, and makes you arrive at the plateau with fewer points in weapon skills since offense is comparatively higher. It kind of works against you. Meanwhile, the classes on the furthest end of the offense-heavy spectrum gain defense so slowly and suffer from this forever.

These are skills that you never really max out. You might max a weapon skill, but I don't think any characters ever reach the offense and defense caps now that you can't cheese it against stilt lizards and whatnot. Unlike most skills, you never reach a point where there's no more room for improvement. As such, anything that hinders improvements is a huge drawback while anything that helps improvements is a huge advantage.

But the faster improvement of offense for the offense-heavy classes is temporary. Accuracy is determined by a number of factors like offense skill, weapon skill, stats and possibly more. Every character eventually reaches a point where they stop missing, and whatever combination of accuracy-related skills they have when they get there is what they'll probably stay at forever, barring the rare luxury of befriending some sort of old master who can take you further. Most characters never get to do that.

No matter what class you are, you'll plateau at the same level of general accuracy. That's when you no longer miss against anything/anyone you can fight on a regular basis. Offense-heavy classes reach it faster, but since this level is reached quite quickly no matter what class you are, reaching it a little faster isn't particularly helpful in the long run. If anything, the classes with high starting offense will reach the plateau with a lower level of weapon skills than the defense-heavy classes will because that high starting offense kind of reduces the number of points you can gain in weapon skills before you plateau. Since weapon skills do more than just accuracy with attacks, that's a disadvantage as well.

Defense doesn't have this issue. It never becomes impossible for you to get hit. You can keep improving defense until there's nothing left in the world that you can safely get hit by - or no sparring partners available - with a high enough offense to qualify you for defense gains. And since that window of imparity is bigger the higher your class is on the defense hierarchy, the defense-heavy classes also have a higher ultimate potential in this department. A defense-heavy class who spends their life exclusively fighting, say, raptors will end up with a higher defense skill than an offense-heavy class who does the same. They both end up at whatever level of defense a raptor can get you to, but that level is higher for the defense-heavy class.

While the same is technically  true of offense for the offense-heavy classes, anything that can dodge your attacks with any kind of regularity has enough defense to meet your needs. There's no such thing as a creature/character that can dodge your attacks but hasn't got enough defense for you to gain. As such, a larger offense gain window doesn't really lead to a higher potential. Your potential is only ever as high as the defense skill of the things you fight, and they stop dodging before the point where it matters where your class is in the offense gain hierarchy. There's no benefit to it.

This all translates into a situation where the defense-heavy classes result in noticeably better combatants. You'll end up with the same accuracy as the offense-heavy classes, but a larger portion of your accuracy will come from weapon skills, which is better than having more of your accuracy come from offense--and you'll have significantly higher defense as well. It's also more feasible to raise multiple weapon skills because you don't start with high offense or gain it so fast that trying to raise more than one weapon skill is tantamount to self-sabotage.

To illustrate what I mean, a defense-heavy class' accuracy after 50 days of play might look like this:

offense        wpnskill       stats
--------|------------|-----|

An offense-heavy class' accuracy might instead look like this:

offense           wpnskill    stats
-----------|---------|-----|

But they both come out to the same final sum, whatever amount of global accuracy stops you from missing attacks--but the defense-heavy class will simply have a higher defense as well. It'll just be a plain superior character.

Everything comes back to the age-old issue of bottlenecking weapon skills exclusively through dodged attacks, and the fact that your own offense skill is your enemy in this regard. Defense has no such problem, you can always resort to unarmed fighting or disengage and let someone swing away for however long it takes them to land a number of hits. You can brute-force through the lower chance of getting hit. You can't brute-force through your own higher chance to hit. At least not beyond what minor penalties you get from things like sitting.

[Pariah]

Offense really only comes into play if you're playing purely for PVP in my experience, I get to like journeyman skill in a weapon and I'm just destroying the PVE game, unless I go mega-fauna like Mekillots or things you really shouldn't be soloing.

[Triskelion]

Offense really only comes into play if you're playing purely for PVP in my experience, I get to like journeyman skill in a weapon and I'm just destroying the PVE game, unless I go mega-fauna like Mekillots or things you really shouldn't be soloing.

The problem is that all classes arrive at that point and sort of converge so that there's no real benefit from playing an offense-heavy class, whereas a defense-heavy class will end up with higher defense than the others. A high-offense class doesn't end up with higher offensive skills, they just arrive at the plateau faster. Any other class will plateau at the same point, but the high-offense classes also happen to have the lowest defense gains, which means they're forever saddled with a disadvanage while their would-be advantage does not actually exist.

And while it's true that you don't need very high weapon skills to slaughter animals, this is because animals generally don't have high defense and have no parry skill at all. You can have a character that never misses a swing against animals but can barely get past a gith's parry and shield. There's a huge difference between fighting animals and fighting armed humanoids. Animals are a joke in this game, all they do is hit hard and have high natural armor (sometimes). All the dangerous wildlife is dangerous because they hit hard. None are dangerous because they're difficult to hit.

[Pariah]

Offense really only comes into play if you're playing purely for PVP in my experience, I get to like journeyman skill in a weapon and I'm just destroying the PVE game, unless I go mega-fauna like Mekillots or things you really shouldn't be soloing.

The problem is that all classes arrive at that point and sort of converge so that there's no real benefit from playing an offense-heavy class, whereas a defense-heavy class will end up with higher defense than the others. A high-offense class doesn't end up with higher offensive skills, they just arrive at the plateau faster. Any other class will plateau at the same point, but the high-offense classes also happen to have the lowest defense gains, which means they're forever saddled with a disadvanage while their would-be advantage does not actually exist.

And while it's true that you don't need very high weapon skills to slaughter animals, this is because animals generally don't have high defense and have no parry skill at all. You can have a character that never misses a swing against animals but can barely get past a gith's parry and shield. There's a huge difference between fighting animals and fighting armed humanoids. Animals are a joke in this game, all they do is hit hard and have high natural armor (sometimes).

This has sorta always been my issue with combat.  PVP can kill everything that walks Zalanthas... Day one t1 combat character, kicks the shit outta you.

The whole good at fighting animals, good at fighting people thing is irritating.

Yet the same dude that kicks your ass, dies to a scrab or spider.

[Triskelion]

I wouldn't say it's that bad. While there is such a thing as being better at fighting x than y depending on what your character has been doing in life, the effects aren't so stark that someone can be John Wick against people and Elmer Fudd against animals. The point I was making is that the classes on the defense-heavy end of the spectrum benefit a lot from that while the classes on the offense-heavy end don't get much out of being on that end.

Incidentally, elves suffer extra hard from this since their agility's bonuses make it even harder to raise weapon skills. This bonus is very powerful in the beginning when it catapults your offense far beyond what other races can begin with, but as time goes on, it eats away at your long-term potential by making the point of "I can no longer miss" arrive that much sooner. Coupled with the inability to have decent strength, it becomes hard to be relevant in melee combat. As other races continue to gain, they catch up, and suddenly that agility bonus counts for a lot less. It erodes over time.

It stems from the fact that offense and weapon skills plateau, and barring the stars aligning and pairing you with some benevolent long-lived master who cares to spar with you consistently day to day, your character's skill growth in offense and weapon skills is likely to stall out at the midway point. This erases the benefit of being a class that has increased gains in this department. The less offense-heavy classes don't plateau at a lower level; they plateau at the same level, it just takes a few more days of play to get there. Meanwhile, they do benefit long-term from better defense gains because you're not bottlenecked the same way in this regard.

I don't think Brokkr has formally revealed exactly where each class sits on this offense/defense spectrum, so I'm probably not allowed to go into detail with that, but suffice to say that on top of it being better to have high defense gains, the classes that do so also have better "playability prospects" in general. Take from that what you will. #RangerLyfe

[Pariah]

I would disagree with the John Wick thing, I've seen it many times, guy is a beast at PvP.  Like demolishes you in two or three rounds.

Get killed by a spider like he's a fucking paper towel.

[Triskelion]

That's because bricky spooders are omegabroken and can roll mul strength. The actual code function of 'skill vs wildlife/humanoids/etc.' is not very impactful on its own.

[Riev]

Also, as its been hinted at numerous times:

For those whose job it is to kill spiders, they will find themselves far more capable against spiders than if come upon by a humanoid raider.

[Pariah]

Yeah I get there is probably some hidden skill versus thing in our list of skills.

My point is the stark contrast between fighting people and fighting fauna is soooo wide.

[Pariah]

That's because bricky spooders are omegabroken and can roll mul strength. The actual code function of 'skill vs wildlife/humanoids/etc.' is not very impactful on its own.

Brick red spiders will ALWAYS give me pause, whether I'm a thirty days played character that wipes the floor with everything or whether I'm a day one newb.  To see one in the distance is like WELL FUCK.

They are so varied in power, I've killed five in a row to be OMFG HIT in the neck from 100hp to 20hp

[Kavrick]

That's because bricky spooders are omegabroken and can roll mul strength. The actual code function of 'skill vs wildlife/humanoids/etc.' is not very impactful on its own.

Brick red spiders will ALWAYS give me pause, whether I'm a thirty days played character that wipes the floor with everything or whether I'm a day one newb.  To see one in the distance is like WELL FUCK.

They are so varied in power, I've killed five in a row to be OMFG HIT in the neck from 100hp to 20hp

This is how I feel about carru. I nearly died to a carru once on a character that could kill the majority of mobs in the game because it randomly hit me three times for like 80 damage. Random stats on mobs can make them rediculous.

[Triskelion]

Hell, there was once a time when carru-charge had no delay. They could do it three times in an instant. The '00s were a wild time.

[Kavrick]

Hell, there was once a time when carru-charge had no delay. They could do it three times in an instant. The '00s were a wild time.

That's still a thing, seen it happen as recent as this month.

[Pariah]

Carry can randomly bash you over and over too.  It's rare but I've had it happen.

[LindseyBalboa]

re: classes

i like them. i like subguild none a lot. i think there should be more things like subguild none. it's cool to grow as a character, through roleplay, and have that reflected in code.

[Lotion]

starter shops are grossly inconsistent in how they are navigated and what they contain. only luir's has bandages.

Moderated by Kestria - Due to in game spoilers.

I suppose a new player wouldn't be aware, but virtually all cloth items can be turned into a functional bandage-item with the salvage command.

Salvage is not a good solution to this problem as clothes to salvage are not always readily available. Even if cloth salvage was readily available it's still not a good solution to my observed problem.

[Brokkr]

Salvage is not a good solution to this problem as clothes to salvage are not always readily available. Even if cloth salvage was readily available it's still not a good solution to my observed problem.

I rarely do this, but I will pass along a pro-tip I got from another player a long time ago.

Find:

a small bag

You know, the one that is often sold alongside "a large bag"

salvage it

How many scraps of cloth you get is dependent on the weight of the item being salvaged.  The problem with cloth is there isn't a lot that weight a lot, and those that do are usually not cheap.  And they need to be a minimum weight to get anything.  So find something common and consistent and cheap.

[dumbstruck]

Salvage is not a good solution to this problem as clothes to salvage are not always readily available. Even if cloth salvage was readily available it's still not a good solution to my observed problem.

I rarely do this, but I will pass along a pro-tip I got from another player a long time ago.

Find:

a small bag

You know, the one that is often sold alongside "a large bag"

salvage it

How many scraps of cloth you get is dependent on the weight of the item being salvaged.  The problem with cloth is there isn't a lot that weight a lot, and those that do are usually not cheap.  And they need to be a minimum weight to get anything.  So find something common and consistent and cheap.

You got a friend who is trying to get clothworking on a dune trader? Gettem to salvage one of their 235255 pointless tents. You get a ton of scraps every time.