Allanaki Gates - Flavour versus Playability

[Miradus]

Come on dude. You've played the game for long enough to appreciate that there are quite a few things that are extremely time consuming. Being stuck outside the city from dusk til dawn is one of them.

You're talking about ~30 minutes of someone's time where they might just log out and go do something productive instead of play this game; this game that's desperate for players. As the game bleeds people who are interested in a strictly hardcore experience, it would benefit us to look at quality of life improvements to open the spread to less insane players. Allowing people to move more freely is a pretty easy ask.

If antagonist roleplay hinges on the ability to keep someone as a captive audience - that's an entirely different issue.

I also know at early morning, high sun, early afternoon, late afternoon, that I should start moving inside unless I wanna stay outside. It's part of my roleplay, harsh-world desert sim experience to build my day around the gates if the safety of the city is something that is part of my character.

And I don't care what the game population is if we're looking to fill it up with people whose expectations for it are something it's never been.

As for the antagonist ... what does that have to do with it? How would you even know whether I am or am not an antagonist?

[dunecrawler]

I don't see why some of you can't roleplay inside the city if you're stuck inside, or roleplay outside if you're stuck outside. But even if that is the case - why not log out in the place where you like to play during IG nights? Players habitually quit out inside the walls, but even without desert quit, there are plenty of quit-safe rooms in the wilderness, and there's always the quit rooms at the gates.

[dumbstruck]

Come on dude. You've played the game for long enough to appreciate that there are quite a few things that are extremely time consuming. Being stuck outside the city from dusk til dawn is one of them.

You're talking about ~30 minutes of someone's time where they might just log out and go do something productive instead of play this game; this game that's desperate for players. As the game bleeds people who are interested in a strictly hardcore experience, it would benefit us to look at quality of life improvements to open the spread to less insane players. Allowing people to move more freely is a pretty easy ask.

If antagonist roleplay hinges on the ability to keep someone as a captive audience - that's an entirely different issue.

This. Just... all of this.

There is a difference between being difficult IC in a way that makes survival more difficult and meaningful, and something that's literally more making life inconvenient for the player and just kind of irritating IC. As people have pointed out, there's quit rooms at the gates, like, you can already choose to not be in the game, but is the gates closing like that making things meaningfully more difficult for characters to survive in a way that enriches the game experience, or is it something that is creating an inconvenience which is making things less fun.

Personally, I'm curious if there's anyone who finds this adds to surviving meaningfully, or fun in any way at ALL.

I would contend that it does not. 2-3 IC hours is not going to impact whether or not your character dies of thirst or hunger. It will surely eat up half the play time of a casual player for the day.

[Roon]

The gate schedule was fine in a time when the taverns were usually full of people and most clans went out often enough to where players legitimately needed some break time between outings in order to grab a bit to eat or whatever. You'd go out to hunt or patrol and then back to the city to microwave your hot pockets, or hang out in the Gaj or the Bard's Barrel (whichever one had an empty seat available) and talk about all the latest stuff.

Now that the social dynamics are different - let's just put it like that - I think it makes sense to just leave the gates open 24/7, like in Tuluk. It's still impractical and dangerous to travel at night and most characters would think twice about doing so, but the pointless hassle of being stuck outside for half an hour if you didn't make it at the crack of dusk is something we could probably do without.

There's no very good reason that Allanak would close its gates at night. It's got a whole army milling about. If Tuluk stays open like 7-Eleven, why wouldn't Allanak? It's got its gemmed population who may be the only ones who can genuinely justify venturing out into the desert at night. The more you think about it, them more it seems like Allanak is the one place that should be most "all hours" in Zalanthas.

[Armaddict]

Main point:  I don't think there's any problem with adjusting gate times.  As noted in a previous post, there's been some playerbase shifts that make it less necessary and more impediment; at the time it was put in, there was a pretty large portion of the playerbase who never had any reason to leave the gates, and excursions outside the gates were much more of a big deal as far as the danger felt, resulting in a less 'freeform' sort of trip through those gates at most times.

That being said, I don't think jumping on Miradus for saying such things (though not very well phrased) is really warranted.  You do have to keep in mind that the harshness of the game drew a lot of people to it as a -hard- role playing game.  How do you make things hard in games?  You make weird risks, you add inconveniences that need to be dealt with, and you have mechanics and social settings that are not based around user-friendliness and consideration.  Dark Souls games aren't known as hard games because they make everything convenient for you.  Just remember whenever you propose changes to make things simpler or more friendly, you will also be proposing that idea to people who were drawn in and stuck around because of difficulties where small circumstances could put your character through the ringer; for some, getting caught outside the gates was not just an inconvenience, it was a timer, and it was a concern every time a trip started not going as planned, or it was an event that led to vulnerability in some way, and that's the way they wanted it.

The same way that making things 'hard' can cost the game players, making everything line up into ease and convenience and player consideration over harshness reinforcement can also cost players, which makes everything the argument that it turns into.  Again, though, I don't think gates closing later is really that big of a deal, particularly with how much more outside-the-gates involvement there is for a lot of the playerbase now that quitting out out there is less restricted and dangers are...not less prevalent, but more predictable, allowing more to feel confident out there braving it.

[Riev]

Side A -
I think we should change the schedule of the gates closing by an hour, so its only closed when its night.

Side B -
I think we should make the gates open all the time.

Side C -
I don't think we should make a change at all

Miradus' side -
I don't think things should change at all because thats how its always been. The game should be harsh and every change to make it less harsh makes the game worse.



I don't know that people are piling on Miradus, he has an unpopular opinion and is telling everyone its fact.

[Kavrick]

I don't know that people are piling on Miradus, he has an unpopular opinion and is telling everyone its fact.

I don't really want to call anyone out, but I do think it's something that needs to be said sometimes when it comes to the last part. Different people want to get different things out of the game. Everyone plays Arm differently and that's one of the best parts of this MUD, that there are many ways to approach and enjoy the game. If you can enhance a particular part of the game without taking away from anyone else (Such as making the gates not close/close less so people don't get locked in/out during inactive hours), then what's the issue with that?

Also I think there's a difference between ic difficulty and ooc difficulty. I understand why there might be pushback for something like 'lets make all mobs weaker', but something like gates, which don't really make the game harder, but are more an inconvenience than anything I think are fine to be up for change without damaging the 'grittiness' of Armageddon.

[Brokkr]

I was only a player at the time, but my perspective on why the gates were made to close was that it was to support roleplay.

I seem to remember community perspective that you were not supposed to be doing anything at night.  Not going out to hunt.  Not trading with the NPC merchants.  Not sparring.

You were supposed to sit in taverns and do social roleplay.

Not saying this as a Staff supported view, just that is what I remember around the overall player community perspective, if I have my timeline of when the gates started closing right. It was a time where much of the focus was off of coded skill advancement vs other times in Arm's history.

[mansa]

I was only a player at the time, but my perspective on why the gates were made to close was that it was to support roleplay.

I seem to remember community perspective that you were not supposed to be doing anything at night.  Not going out to hunt.  Not going out to hunt.  Not sparring.

You were supposed to sit in taverns and do social roleplay.

I think doing a one-way travel into the city might be good for that -> Riev's rent idea

[Brokkr]

I was just trying to give some perspective, as I don't think the direction the conversation was going was really related to the actual reason it was put in place.  Of course I was only a player at the time so I don't know for sure, but I do have a sense of what the community atmosphere was like.

When I look at something like this, I have questions that it seems like folks just assume everyone knows the answer to.

• Why is the gates being closed at night impeding your play?
• What is it you are doing that it impedes your play?
• Is it realistic that your character is doing that, at that time of day?
• Is it realistic that everyone else (PCs/NPCs/vNPCs) would be doing the same thing?

I kind of start my mental process at a point of heavy roleplay taking precedence.  What we provide is a heavy roleplay game (not a RP-lite game with lots of beating each other bone swords, despite what some people may want).  So I start with the heavy roleplay answer, which to me is, what would your/a character do regardless of what you the player wants to be doing.  I then roll backwards to "is this fun or reasonable" to gauge the compromise and go from there.

I just explain all that as it seems like this might be the kind of thing that really is a compromise.  But it is hard to judge without knowing the answers to the questions.

[dumbstruck]

I was just trying to give some perspective, as I don't think the direction the conversation was going was really related to the actual reason it was put in place.  Of course I was only a player at the time so I don't know for sure, but I do have a sense of what the community atmosphere was like.

When I look at something like this, I have questions that it seems like folks just assume everyone knows the answer to.

• Why is the gates being closed at night impeding your play?
• What is it you are doing that it impedes your play?
• Is it realistic that your character is doing that, at that time of day?
• Is it realistic that everyone else (PCs/NPCs/vNPCs) would be doing the same thing?

Good question.

About Bedouin Desert People in Real Life:

Bedouins finely adapted their lifestyles to the harsh conditions of the desert. The first and most important survival skill was to avoid the heat of the day. For this reason, travel was often conducted at night, using... significant landmarks for navigation.

I started playing before they started closing all the shops at night, and I argued when they started doing it that it was unrealistic then, too.

It's fine if you want to say that it's a game design choice and you're trying to do it to make people interact, which was, if I recall correctly, the logic at the time, not realism. But it's absolutely not more realistic to restrict desert travel at night. People who have lived in deserts in real life have often sought to avoid the heat of the middle of the day, not the darkness of the night which actually offers cool and respite.

[Brokkr]

Yes I remember a wave of this reasoning around when shops were closed.  While the Bedouin people preferred to move at night, my understanding is that aboriginal people did not?  My snarky side reasons that it is probably safer to move around in the day, when everything you see wants to poison and/or eat you (talking about Australia, not Zalanthas).

In Zalanthas it is even more dangerous, dealing with predators that have apparently developed an ability to hunt you at night, during a sandstorm you can't see through.

[dumbstruck]

That /most/ can't see through. Though I would imagine traveling on nights where it was too sandy to see would not be practical in Zalanthas. And that's fair about the Aboriginal people not using nights to travel, though this also depends on which parts of the Aboriginal peoples you refer to. If you refer solely to the ones in Australia, I am still looking for information about their nocturnal activities, @Brokkr but the Aboriginal peoples in the United States actually hunted and fished by torchlight. And here is a link to the webcache for the university paper on those activities.

Relevant Quote:

CONCLUSION:

Public safety and conservation are legitimate reasons for prohibiting traditional night harvesting activities by Aboriginal people.

So we come again to, it's okay if it's a game design choice as opposed to 'realism'. But if it's about realism, tribes all over the place do stuff nocturnally, especially in deserts but not exclusively there. If anything, the fact that the code doesn't properly handle torchlight hinders realistic nocturnal activities to a degree, because you can't forage outside by torchlight.

[Nacria]

As a new player I can barely figure out where I need to go to find what I want to buy. Closing the shops down for thirty minute intervals while I'm doing that is incredibly frustrating.

I would consider this to be a basic failure of design.

[Feu de Joie]

12pk natty light.

2 rifles.

at /least/ one girl


Night hunting is a blast. wtf man. Who don't go night hunting? The /best/ part of night hunting is the fact that it's different, illegal, dangerous, and a time when other people aren't hunting. When there's a vacancy, humans fill it.

I can't speak to muls, elves, or any other fantasy races, but when there's an opportunity, the human opportunists fill it. And well, sometimes they die.


Good hunting, y'all.

[Brokkr]

Except it's...

12pk Coors light

2 bone knives

at /least/ one lion pride






Good Luck!

[Riev]

And you can't see that lion pride because while its only half a league away, its to the northeast and your pitiful Zalanthan vision only works cardinally.

[Brokkr]

I mean since it is night so you can only see a room away if you are lucky anyways...

Think Hidden rantarri with a backstab attack that wander near Allanak at night, having developed a taste for humanoid flesh, that is the ticket!


I will also point out if I have my timeline right there were mantis southwest of Nak (within 10 to 15 rooms) when the gate stuff started.  And gith captains north of the west road.

[Nacria]

I don't get it?

There are mega hunters in game right now that could totally wreck the pride of lions even while blinded.

[Inks]

I like the gates closing at night. I've missed them before and it always is my own fault. I've caught people stuck outside as a raider too for a cute interaction/robbery a couple of times, one where the guy was sleeping and got his literal boots stolen then woke him up and we RPed a hilarious scene.

Allanak has plenty of shops open at night, there are plenty of things to do or people to rob for criminals, and I wouldn't have Allanak any other way.

I think for functional coded and also IC security not having rogues and raiders sneak in at night makes perfect sense.

[Brokkr]

I don't get it?

There are mega hunters in game right now that could totally wreck the pride of lions even while blinded.

emote starts plotting to ambush the mega hunters with 10 adult rantarri.

I am actually kind of ambivalent about the gates being closed or open, personally.

[GreenTransient]

I don't get it?

There are mega hunters in game right now that could totally wreck the pride of lions even while blinded.

emote starts plotting to ambush the mega hunters with 10 adult rantarri.

I am actually kind of ambivalent about the gates being closed or open, personally. 

This is stuff I already think you all do, kill experienced PC's cause they are good, this is a bad joke to make.  I mean I'm sure Staff has /never/ killed a pc on purpose that didn't deserve it, just miscalculated the mobs strength.  Speed.  Poison.  Skills.  Or, whatever.  On accident.



This is a weird conversation to watch.  Some people think that's forcing another human being to sit alone and do nothing for 30 minutes by themselves, instead of role playing with another human (kind of the point of being here) is fine?  Or perhaps not that it's fine, but that they just don't care?  There is so much casual disregard for other people's time.  Which is what the gate situation comes down to.  To those of you who will be like "boo hoo you had to do nothing" that's not it.  The option so frequently is play Arm or don't play Arm, and so many times Arm makes the decision for itself.

Now there will definitely be people that would use the gates being open, to go do shit their characters shouldn't.  But, I imagine in an attempt to reduce their OWN workload, staff won't change the gates because they will have to provide corrective action to all the twinks.  Twinks are the problem, that's not being solved.  How about, you address twinks.  And provide changes to the game that are respectful of players times, instead of intentionally disrespectful.

Over the course of the last six months, for me, this game has slid into a complete shit show.  A lot of it seems to be this casual disregard for other humans, as people.  This is the worst new player experience, I've had in any came across the decades.  Not just the code, mostly the people just not seeming to care about anyone outside their circle in the community.

Facilitate RP.  Realism doesn't matter if you make it miserable to be a player.  Which, sitting at the gate for 1/48th of someone's real life fucking day, or worse half their alloted playtime because Life, is fucked.  And I'll get more accomplished, playing a useless game of Overwatch II, so why bother logging into Arm.

Make it expensive, make it one person.  Would just be really nice to see something other than, "look new magick to kill you with" "new mobs to kill you with" "new taints to kill you with" "new tainted magical mobs, to kill you with". 

[Armaddict]

Facilitate RP.  Realism doesn't matter if you make it miserable to be a player.  Which, sitting at the gate for 1/48th of someone's real life fucking day, or worse half their alloted playtime because Life, is fucked.  And I'll get more accomplished, playing a useless game of Overwatch II, so why bother logging into Arm.

With undertones of hostility, you've kind of managed to sidestep the opposition in order to try and make them say something they aren't.

No one is -forcing- you to wait for 30 minutes.  The only force you're subjected to is the same force that everyone else is subjected to, which is that you should probably plan your adventures, and recognize consequences of things that happen in game.  I don't mean 'suffer the consequences', I mean that when you encounter random-scenario #312 in the wilds that will take a big chunk of your time to deal with, rectify, or interact with...heading towards closing gates will either be a race, or you find some other form of shelter.

Or, when you're limited on time, you acknowledge that limitation on time to avoid putting yourself into scenarios that will then have their own possible downsides.

This isn't anyone shitting on you.  This isn't some mechanic put in JUST to make you suffer.  It's a coded element of a city's behavior that you have to acknowledge and take into account when you are in a character that consistently goes through those gates and probably should be hyper-aware of how much time they have to accomplish x or y.

Oddly, this is actually facilitation of RP in its own right as long as you play around it, instead of insisting it's part of a widespread conspiracy to make you miserable.  People avoid leaving the gates later in the day if they know they won't get as much done, so they congregate or find something else in city to do.  People who get stuck outside might hunker down, or they might travel elsewhere in the world to try and beat darkness in a safer place.  People who run into an encounter in the wilds realize they have to change their plan because they won't get inside in time.  People who take groups out have a real reason to have a sense of urgency about things.

You can minimize those things all you like, but they are all elements of roleplay that make sense and are not thrust upon you any more than deciding what class's limitations you'll have or which part of the world you'll focus on with your play.

As noted, I don't have particular problems with shifting hours or changes.  But coming out guns blazing like this is all just to hamper you as if you have no say in the matter is not exactly the most compelling argument to make.  You can account for this possibility of inconvenience and make it character-like behavior in the roleplaying game where it makes sense, or you can insist it's all just a nefarious waste of time that you have nothing to do with.  I don't particularly mind in any direction.

[dumbstruck]

One way you can avoid this frustration is avoiding playing in Allanak.

Luir's doesn't do this. Tuluk doesn't do this. Cenyr doesn't do this. Basically only Allanak and Red Storm button up at night like that.

[Jihelu]

I find it annoying to have the gates closed at night and most of the shops closed at night. As someone with less and less time to play, time spent where I might get inside, stable the mount, and go roleplay are being replaced with 'Damn, gates are closed' then I type quit.
Then I check the site when I can log back on to see if its day. If not, I probably don't log on. Thus meaning I'm playing the game even less, after I already stopped playing the game.