Allanaki Gates - Flavour versus Playability

[Sugarpuff]

Following a discussion on discord recently, I wanted to raise the topic of the gates of Allanak and their closing.

Currently closing at dusk, and reopening at dawn (so being closed 1/3 of the time) seems really heavy on the flavour side and not enough on the playability side, especially for off peak players when the city itself can, at times, be very quiet.

The response in discord to this was highly pro, so I wanted to ask more widely, and see if there any chance it would ever be considered that perhaps they could be closed only for the coded night time? It would seem like a good compromise to retain the "gates shut at dark to shut out the world" but enable a little longer for active play. Ten minutes every hour and a half is way easier to bear than half hour.

[Krath]

Yeah, I like this idea....Or even take it a step further, Allanak has a strong and large army, why not leave it open 24/7 and have a higher guard count at the gates?

[Patuk]

I agree that closing them as night actually falls seems like a good idea. It'd make being locked in or out a lot more palatable than it is currently.

[Riev]

Stuck outside the gates?

Lets introduce a new functionality.

rent me
Pay 100 coins to a gate guard to sneak you in the side entrance, but any spice or illegal things in your inventory WILL be confiscated. Also your mount is too big to fit through this door so it stays outside.

[dumbstruck]

Stuck outside the gates?

Lets introduce a new functionality.

rent me
Pay 100 coins to a gate guard to sneak you in the side entrance, but any spice or illegal things in your inventory WILL be confiscated. Also your mount is too big to fit through this door so it stays outside.

I like this but think it should come with some newbieproof script like 'The big guy won't fit, are you sure you want in?' from the guard and an OOC prompt your mount will be left behind if you proceed so if you mean it enter rent me again or something that way no one accidentally loses an animal that way.

[Riev]

rent me confirm

but also it could be an issue when like ... the gates are shut for a REASON (bad animal, HRPT, etc) and the bad guys could just spend 100 coins to "sneak in".

Not that you can't sneak in 3 other ways, but still.

[Kavrick]

I love being locked inside allanak with no shops open and the gaj empty.

[Lizzie]

I love being locked inside allanak with no shops open and the gaj empty.

Most of the shops in Allanak are open 24/7. Only some close from dusk til dawn. I know one that closes at a strange time and opens at mid-day. I think there are two that close at night and open early morning.  As far as I know all of the shops in the bazaar are open all day every day.

[Sugarpuff]

I havent tested all the shops in the bazaar but I know SOME are definitely shut.

[Kavrick]

I love being locked inside allanak with no shops open and the gaj empty.

Most of the shops in Allanak are open 24/7. Only some close from dusk til dawn. I know one that closes at a strange time and opens at mid-day. I think there are two that close at night and open early morning.  As far as I know all of the shops in the bazaar are open all day every day.

After going out of my way and checking myself, it's basically a 50/50 split between shops that close at night and shops that don't. Some in the bazaar close and most in the southern market close.

[Lotion]

If you really don't want to stand outside the gate for 30 minutes maximum in a game where you are expected to wait frequently and often for long periods of time because you are afraid of a raider or scrab you can quit at the gates.

[Sugarpuff]

If you really don't want to stand outside the gate for 30 minutes maximum in a game where you are expected to wait frequently and often for long periods of time because you are afraid of a raider or scrab you can quit at the gates.

This isn't the issue. I've logged in twice today so far when I had a spare hour, both times it's been dusk, there's been nobody about, and I have half hour of being locked inside, it just seems unnecessary. If it was ten minutes out of ninety it would be playable but 1/3 of the time is just overkill.

[CirclelessBard]

Denying players access to things on a rigid timer serves to push players to log out of the game. Taking breaks from the game is healthy! But when you have 1-2 hours to play, it is significantly easier to justify logging out and starting your next activity of the day early. If my character was stuck at a gate or waiting for a shop to open with only 30 minutes left to play, that would be my cue to stop Arming for that session (and possibly for the rest of the day). Whereas with a more playable system I could theoretically eke out 30 more minutes of RP, entertaining myself and ideally others.

All this to say I think we should push for maximizing players' RP times, not minimize them. My hunch is that adjusting how gates and shops work to be a little more lenient to the player is going to be a much bigger boon to the RP experience than it would be a detriment to the flavor/immersion side of things.

[Lizzie]

Maybe if the gates stayed open at dusk, until late night, it'd make more sense and be more playable. Might also be pretty cool if someone blew a horn from the top of the gate at Dusk, so anyone who's out there grebbing or hunting within 3 rooms of the walls would hear the horn blow and know it's time to finish up and get into the city.  Sort of like the Byn horn that you can hear just outside the compound gates.

[Miradus]

How much MORE of the harsh world and survival experience must be sacrificed on the altar of limited gameplay times and real world responsibilities?

[Windstorm]

Plenty more! We're not adding more players, or retaining them, by making ArmageddonMUD less accessible and more difficult to find time windows to play in while the entire medium becomes more ancient and our playerbase gets older, builds families, and so becomes more career and family-focused. RPIs are not a big medium and they're not getting any bigger or less divided between the limited number of options available.

What's keeping players here and giving us any chance at all to bring more in is the idea of immersive roleplay.

What's not keeping players here and in some cases keeping them away is an inability of PCs to do the relatively basic thing of making a home for oneself, or making them wait 30 minutes before they perform some of the other basic functionalities of play and IC life, let alone just being able to log out somewhere reasonable.

Armageddon's always had this tug of war where "harsh" "survivalist" players want to make even playability difficult and daunting for new players without realizing the overall impact. You don't struggle with the harshness or survivability anymore, and the new players it overwhelmingly affects don't enjoy it.

The trickle of people who come into Armageddon anymore are interested in and looking for a roleplaying experience, not to die from starvation because the shopkeeper doesn't open for another half hour.

[seltzer]

The game doesn't strike me as any more or less harsh based on gates being shut.

It is a huge waste of time though to be blocked off from potential roleplay.

Raider spawns are harsh. Poisonous snakes every-fucking-where are harsh. Kryl are harsh.

Gates are strictly whatever and only in the way.

[Miradus]

The trickle of people who come into Armageddon anymore are interested in and looking for a roleplaying experience, not to die from starvation because the shopkeeper doesn't open for another half hour.

I've seen no survey that asks that question from new players: What drew you here? Why are you here?

From where does your statement spring?

Since survival hardcore games in other venues (glancing at Steam) seem to be thriving, growing in number, and scope ... I'd say there's plenty of younger people who are interested in a hardcore survival experience rather than Fantasy Medieval Mean-Girl Simulator where all the corners get rounded off and the storytellers use fuzzy, cuddly nerf monsters.

[Windstorm]

The trickle of people who come into Armageddon anymore are interested in and looking for a roleplaying experience, not to die from starvation because the shopkeeper doesn't open for another half hour.

I've seen no survey that asks that question from new players: What drew you here? Why are you here?

From where does your statement spring?

Since survival hardcore games in other venues (glancing at Steam) seem to be thriving, growing in number, and scope ... I'd say there's plenty of younger people who are interested in a hardcore survival experience rather than Fantasy Medieval Mean-Girl Simulator where all the corners get rounded off and the storytellers use fuzzy, cuddly nerf monsters.

lol, if you're comparing ArmageddonMUD to anything on Steam I've got some bad news for you!

This doesn't compare to any of that.

It compares to MUSHes, mildly to other MUDs where roleplay is encouraged, and other RPIs. Maybe, on a stretch, a few D&D players who like a text medium. On and off, I've played a range of those and talk to people who've tried ArmageddonMUD, found it wasn't for them, and left to find places where they can have PCs who have homes, immersion without unnecessary inconvenience, and a respect for their time.

Those other places have their problems too, and ArmageddonMUD is better than them in ways. But then it comes back to inconvenience, murderhobos, and honestly, a small element of the community that refuses to advance itself because they're still attached to how things were in the fucking 80s or whatever.

Text-based semi-roleplaying PACman isn't it. There's other places to get that kind of game, and a few people hanging on to the olden days when more people were satisfied and had the time for that is one of the biggest things holding Armageddon back from getting more than 3 new players a year whether you want to admit it or not.

[CirclelessBard]

Armageddon is a roleplaying game just as much as it is a survival game. Players are expected to roleplay just as much as they are expected to do their best to ensure they survive in Zalanthas. It's understandable that that would present a conundrum where changes to benefit one side might be a drawback to the other.

That being said, I fail to see how closing the gates for less time robs the game of its harshness. I -can- see how it could undo the work of some players who carefully time and plan their outings, but at the same time, I can see how keeping the gates open for longer would allow for more roleplaying while traveling, too.

As for "Fantasy Medieval Mean-Girl Simulator" this feels like a depreciation of the players and staff that have helped keep the world lively and in-theme over the years. I think if this game had really degraded that much, it wouldn't be around right now. And I think we have a tendency to look back with rose-colored glasses and pretend there are no anomalies in the game's RP and flavor. There are always challenges and always have been. Ideally, we become better roleplayers through discussing and learning from them so that we can represent the harsh world better.

Is there a logical argument that directly ties keeping the gate open for longer to a debasement of the survival experience? Or is it general skepticism about prior changes to the game having already eroded it, with this proposed change being a further erosion?

[Miradus]

Is there a logical argument that directly ties keeping the gate open for longer to a debasement of the survival experience? Or is it general skepticism about prior changes to the game having already eroded it, with this proposed change being a further erosion?

Absolutely. It's yet another situation where complete safety is less than 5-10 rooms away and you can spam there with minimal risk if danger rears its ugly head.

Yet another change that, once you can flee and ride without falling off, makes desert survival absolutely trivial.

[mansa]

Does the gates close immediately on the 10s of the hour?

Example:
Late Afternoon - 10:48
Late Afternoon - 10:49
Dusk - 10:50 - GATES SHUT IMMEDIATELY.


I'd like to see it change so that it pushes it back to the later half of Dusk, with warnings being shouted at 5 minutes after dusk.

Example:
Dusk - 10:54
Dusk - 10:55 - Soldier shouts "Gates are closing soon!"
Dusk - 10:56 - Soldier shouts "Gates are closing soon!  Last Chance!"
Dusk - 10:57 - Soldier shouts "Gates are closing now!"
             - Soldier shuts gates.

[Miradus]

The outstanding claim, Mansa, is that people are stacking up outside of the closed gates and wishing they could roleplay in the Gaj.

Why, if there are so many of them, they can't roleplay at the gate .... I'm not sure.

Or, where they all are, when I ride by the gate at 'before dawn'.

[seltzer]

Come on dude. You've played the game for long enough to appreciate that there are quite a few things that are extremely time consuming. Being stuck outside the city from dusk til dawn is one of them.

You're talking about ~30 minutes of someone's time where they might just log out and go do something productive instead of play this game; this game that's desperate for players. As the game bleeds people who are interested in a strictly hardcore experience, it would benefit us to look at quality of life improvements to open the spread to less insane players. Allowing people to move more freely is a pretty easy ask.

If antagonist roleplay hinges on the ability to keep someone as a captive audience - that's an entirely different issue.

[LidlessEye]

Does the gates close immediately on the 10s of the hour?

Example:
Late Afternoon - 10:48
Late Afternoon - 10:49
Dusk - 10:50 - GATES SHUT IMMEDIATELY.


I'd like to see it change so that it pushes it back to the later half of Dusk, with warnings being shouted at 5 minutes after dusk.

Example:
Dusk - 10:54
Dusk - 10:55 - Soldier shouts "Gates are closing soon!"
Dusk - 10:56 - Soldier shouts "Gates are closing soon!  Last Chance!"
Dusk - 10:57 - Soldier shouts "Gates are closing now!"
             - Soldier shuts gates.

b

This already happens.

[Miradus]

Come on dude. You've played the game for long enough to appreciate that there are quite a few things that are extremely time consuming. Being stuck outside the city from dusk til dawn is one of them.

You're talking about ~30 minutes of someone's time where they might just log out and go do something productive instead of play this game; this game that's desperate for players. As the game bleeds people who are interested in a strictly hardcore experience, it would benefit us to look at quality of life improvements to open the spread to less insane players. Allowing people to move more freely is a pretty easy ask.

If antagonist roleplay hinges on the ability to keep someone as a captive audience - that's an entirely different issue.

I also know at early morning, high sun, early afternoon, late afternoon, that I should start moving inside unless I wanna stay outside. It's part of my roleplay, harsh-world desert sim experience to build my day around the gates if the safety of the city is something that is part of my character.

And I don't care what the game population is if we're looking to fill it up with people whose expectations for it are something it's never been.

As for the antagonist ... what does that have to do with it? How would you even know whether I am or am not an antagonist?

[dunecrawler]

I don't see why some of you can't roleplay inside the city if you're stuck inside, or roleplay outside if you're stuck outside. But even if that is the case - why not log out in the place where you like to play during IG nights? Players habitually quit out inside the walls, but even without desert quit, there are plenty of quit-safe rooms in the wilderness, and there's always the quit rooms at the gates.

[dumbstruck]

Come on dude. You've played the game for long enough to appreciate that there are quite a few things that are extremely time consuming. Being stuck outside the city from dusk til dawn is one of them.

You're talking about ~30 minutes of someone's time where they might just log out and go do something productive instead of play this game; this game that's desperate for players. As the game bleeds people who are interested in a strictly hardcore experience, it would benefit us to look at quality of life improvements to open the spread to less insane players. Allowing people to move more freely is a pretty easy ask.

If antagonist roleplay hinges on the ability to keep someone as a captive audience - that's an entirely different issue.

This. Just... all of this.

There is a difference between being difficult IC in a way that makes survival more difficult and meaningful, and something that's literally more making life inconvenient for the player and just kind of irritating IC. As people have pointed out, there's quit rooms at the gates, like, you can already choose to not be in the game, but is the gates closing like that making things meaningfully more difficult for characters to survive in a way that enriches the game experience, or is it something that is creating an inconvenience which is making things less fun.

Personally, I'm curious if there's anyone who finds this adds to surviving meaningfully, or fun in any way at ALL.

I would contend that it does not. 2-3 IC hours is not going to impact whether or not your character dies of thirst or hunger. It will surely eat up half the play time of a casual player for the day.

[Roon]

The gate schedule was fine in a time when the taverns were usually full of people and most clans went out often enough to where players legitimately needed some break time between outings in order to grab a bit to eat or whatever. You'd go out to hunt or patrol and then back to the city to microwave your hot pockets, or hang out in the Gaj or the Bard's Barrel (whichever one had an empty seat available) and talk about all the latest stuff.

Now that the social dynamics are different - let's just put it like that - I think it makes sense to just leave the gates open 24/7, like in Tuluk. It's still impractical and dangerous to travel at night and most characters would think twice about doing so, but the pointless hassle of being stuck outside for half an hour if you didn't make it at the crack of dusk is something we could probably do without.

There's no very good reason that Allanak would close its gates at night. It's got a whole army milling about. If Tuluk stays open like 7-Eleven, why wouldn't Allanak? It's got its gemmed population who may be the only ones who can genuinely justify venturing out into the desert at night. The more you think about it, them more it seems like Allanak is the one place that should be most "all hours" in Zalanthas.

[Armaddict]

Main point:  I don't think there's any problem with adjusting gate times.  As noted in a previous post, there's been some playerbase shifts that make it less necessary and more impediment; at the time it was put in, there was a pretty large portion of the playerbase who never had any reason to leave the gates, and excursions outside the gates were much more of a big deal as far as the danger felt, resulting in a less 'freeform' sort of trip through those gates at most times.

That being said, I don't think jumping on Miradus for saying such things (though not very well phrased) is really warranted.  You do have to keep in mind that the harshness of the game drew a lot of people to it as a -hard- role playing game.  How do you make things hard in games?  You make weird risks, you add inconveniences that need to be dealt with, and you have mechanics and social settings that are not based around user-friendliness and consideration.  Dark Souls games aren't known as hard games because they make everything convenient for you.  Just remember whenever you propose changes to make things simpler or more friendly, you will also be proposing that idea to people who were drawn in and stuck around because of difficulties where small circumstances could put your character through the ringer; for some, getting caught outside the gates was not just an inconvenience, it was a timer, and it was a concern every time a trip started not going as planned, or it was an event that led to vulnerability in some way, and that's the way they wanted it.

The same way that making things 'hard' can cost the game players, making everything line up into ease and convenience and player consideration over harshness reinforcement can also cost players, which makes everything the argument that it turns into.  Again, though, I don't think gates closing later is really that big of a deal, particularly with how much more outside-the-gates involvement there is for a lot of the playerbase now that quitting out out there is less restricted and dangers are...not less prevalent, but more predictable, allowing more to feel confident out there braving it.

[Riev]

Side A -
I think we should change the schedule of the gates closing by an hour, so its only closed when its night.

Side B -
I think we should make the gates open all the time.

Side C -
I don't think we should make a change at all

Miradus' side -
I don't think things should change at all because thats how its always been. The game should be harsh and every change to make it less harsh makes the game worse.



I don't know that people are piling on Miradus, he has an unpopular opinion and is telling everyone its fact.

[Kavrick]

I don't know that people are piling on Miradus, he has an unpopular opinion and is telling everyone its fact.

I don't really want to call anyone out, but I do think it's something that needs to be said sometimes when it comes to the last part. Different people want to get different things out of the game. Everyone plays Arm differently and that's one of the best parts of this MUD, that there are many ways to approach and enjoy the game. If you can enhance a particular part of the game without taking away from anyone else (Such as making the gates not close/close less so people don't get locked in/out during inactive hours), then what's the issue with that?

Also I think there's a difference between ic difficulty and ooc difficulty. I understand why there might be pushback for something like 'lets make all mobs weaker', but something like gates, which don't really make the game harder, but are more an inconvenience than anything I think are fine to be up for change without damaging the 'grittiness' of Armageddon.

[Brokkr]

I was only a player at the time, but my perspective on why the gates were made to close was that it was to support roleplay.

I seem to remember community perspective that you were not supposed to be doing anything at night.  Not going out to hunt.  Not trading with the NPC merchants.  Not sparring.

You were supposed to sit in taverns and do social roleplay.

Not saying this as a Staff supported view, just that is what I remember around the overall player community perspective, if I have my timeline of when the gates started closing right. It was a time where much of the focus was off of coded skill advancement vs other times in Arm's history.

[mansa]

I was only a player at the time, but my perspective on why the gates were made to close was that it was to support roleplay.

I seem to remember community perspective that you were not supposed to be doing anything at night.  Not going out to hunt.  Not going out to hunt.  Not sparring.

You were supposed to sit in taverns and do social roleplay.

I think doing a one-way travel into the city might be good for that -> Riev's rent idea

[Brokkr]

I was just trying to give some perspective, as I don't think the direction the conversation was going was really related to the actual reason it was put in place.  Of course I was only a player at the time so I don't know for sure, but I do have a sense of what the community atmosphere was like.

When I look at something like this, I have questions that it seems like folks just assume everyone knows the answer to.

• Why is the gates being closed at night impeding your play?
• What is it you are doing that it impedes your play?
• Is it realistic that your character is doing that, at that time of day?
• Is it realistic that everyone else (PCs/NPCs/vNPCs) would be doing the same thing?

I kind of start my mental process at a point of heavy roleplay taking precedence.  What we provide is a heavy roleplay game (not a RP-lite game with lots of beating each other bone swords, despite what some people may want).  So I start with the heavy roleplay answer, which to me is, what would your/a character do regardless of what you the player wants to be doing.  I then roll backwards to "is this fun or reasonable" to gauge the compromise and go from there.

I just explain all that as it seems like this might be the kind of thing that really is a compromise.  But it is hard to judge without knowing the answers to the questions.

[dumbstruck]

I was just trying to give some perspective, as I don't think the direction the conversation was going was really related to the actual reason it was put in place.  Of course I was only a player at the time so I don't know for sure, but I do have a sense of what the community atmosphere was like.

When I look at something like this, I have questions that it seems like folks just assume everyone knows the answer to.

• Why is the gates being closed at night impeding your play?
• What is it you are doing that it impedes your play?
• Is it realistic that your character is doing that, at that time of day?
• Is it realistic that everyone else (PCs/NPCs/vNPCs) would be doing the same thing?

Good question.

About Bedouin Desert People in Real Life:

Bedouins finely adapted their lifestyles to the harsh conditions of the desert. The first and most important survival skill was to avoid the heat of the day. For this reason, travel was often conducted at night, using... significant landmarks for navigation.

I started playing before they started closing all the shops at night, and I argued when they started doing it that it was unrealistic then, too.

It's fine if you want to say that it's a game design choice and you're trying to do it to make people interact, which was, if I recall correctly, the logic at the time, not realism. But it's absolutely not more realistic to restrict desert travel at night. People who have lived in deserts in real life have often sought to avoid the heat of the middle of the day, not the darkness of the night which actually offers cool and respite.

[Brokkr]

Yes I remember a wave of this reasoning around when shops were closed.  While the Bedouin people preferred to move at night, my understanding is that aboriginal people did not?  My snarky side reasons that it is probably safer to move around in the day, when everything you see wants to poison and/or eat you (talking about Australia, not Zalanthas).

In Zalanthas it is even more dangerous, dealing with predators that have apparently developed an ability to hunt you at night, during a sandstorm you can't see through.

[dumbstruck]

That /most/ can't see through. Though I would imagine traveling on nights where it was too sandy to see would not be practical in Zalanthas. And that's fair about the Aboriginal people not using nights to travel, though this also depends on which parts of the Aboriginal peoples you refer to. If you refer solely to the ones in Australia, I am still looking for information about their nocturnal activities, @Brokkr but the Aboriginal peoples in the United States actually hunted and fished by torchlight. And here is a link to the webcache for the university paper on those activities.

Relevant Quote:

CONCLUSION:

Public safety and conservation are legitimate reasons for prohibiting traditional night harvesting activities by Aboriginal people.

So we come again to, it's okay if it's a game design choice as opposed to 'realism'. But if it's about realism, tribes all over the place do stuff nocturnally, especially in deserts but not exclusively there. If anything, the fact that the code doesn't properly handle torchlight hinders realistic nocturnal activities to a degree, because you can't forage outside by torchlight.

[Nacria]

As a new player I can barely figure out where I need to go to find what I want to buy. Closing the shops down for thirty minute intervals while I'm doing that is incredibly frustrating.

I would consider this to be a basic failure of design.

[Feu de Joie]

12pk natty light.

2 rifles.

at /least/ one girl


Night hunting is a blast. wtf man. Who don't go night hunting? The /best/ part of night hunting is the fact that it's different, illegal, dangerous, and a time when other people aren't hunting. When there's a vacancy, humans fill it.

I can't speak to muls, elves, or any other fantasy races, but when there's an opportunity, the human opportunists fill it. And well, sometimes they die.


Good hunting, y'all.

[Brokkr]

Except it's...

12pk Coors light

2 bone knives

at /least/ one lion pride






Good Luck!

[Riev]

And you can't see that lion pride because while its only half a league away, its to the northeast and your pitiful Zalanthan vision only works cardinally.

[Brokkr]

I mean since it is night so you can only see a room away if you are lucky anyways...

Think Hidden rantarri with a backstab attack that wander near Allanak at night, having developed a taste for humanoid flesh, that is the ticket!


I will also point out if I have my timeline right there were mantis southwest of Nak (within 10 to 15 rooms) when the gate stuff started.  And gith captains north of the west road.

[Nacria]

I don't get it?

There are mega hunters in game right now that could totally wreck the pride of lions even while blinded.

[Inks]

I like the gates closing at night. I've missed them before and it always is my own fault. I've caught people stuck outside as a raider too for a cute interaction/robbery a couple of times, one where the guy was sleeping and got his literal boots stolen then woke him up and we RPed a hilarious scene.

Allanak has plenty of shops open at night, there are plenty of things to do or people to rob for criminals, and I wouldn't have Allanak any other way.

I think for functional coded and also IC security not having rogues and raiders sneak in at night makes perfect sense.

[Brokkr]

I don't get it?

There are mega hunters in game right now that could totally wreck the pride of lions even while blinded.

emote starts plotting to ambush the mega hunters with 10 adult rantarri.

I am actually kind of ambivalent about the gates being closed or open, personally.

[GreenTransient]

I don't get it?

There are mega hunters in game right now that could totally wreck the pride of lions even while blinded.

emote starts plotting to ambush the mega hunters with 10 adult rantarri.

I am actually kind of ambivalent about the gates being closed or open, personally. 

This is stuff I already think you all do, kill experienced PC's cause they are good, this is a bad joke to make.  I mean I'm sure Staff has /never/ killed a pc on purpose that didn't deserve it, just miscalculated the mobs strength.  Speed.  Poison.  Skills.  Or, whatever.  On accident.



This is a weird conversation to watch.  Some people think that's forcing another human being to sit alone and do nothing for 30 minutes by themselves, instead of role playing with another human (kind of the point of being here) is fine?  Or perhaps not that it's fine, but that they just don't care?  There is so much casual disregard for other people's time.  Which is what the gate situation comes down to.  To those of you who will be like "boo hoo you had to do nothing" that's not it.  The option so frequently is play Arm or don't play Arm, and so many times Arm makes the decision for itself.

Now there will definitely be people that would use the gates being open, to go do shit their characters shouldn't.  But, I imagine in an attempt to reduce their OWN workload, staff won't change the gates because they will have to provide corrective action to all the twinks.  Twinks are the problem, that's not being solved.  How about, you address twinks.  And provide changes to the game that are respectful of players times, instead of intentionally disrespectful.

Over the course of the last six months, for me, this game has slid into a complete shit show.  A lot of it seems to be this casual disregard for other humans, as people.  This is the worst new player experience, I've had in any came across the decades.  Not just the code, mostly the people just not seeming to care about anyone outside their circle in the community.

Facilitate RP.  Realism doesn't matter if you make it miserable to be a player.  Which, sitting at the gate for 1/48th of someone's real life fucking day, or worse half their alloted playtime because Life, is fucked.  And I'll get more accomplished, playing a useless game of Overwatch II, so why bother logging into Arm.

Make it expensive, make it one person.  Would just be really nice to see something other than, "look new magick to kill you with" "new mobs to kill you with" "new taints to kill you with" "new tainted magical mobs, to kill you with". 

[Armaddict]

Facilitate RP.  Realism doesn't matter if you make it miserable to be a player.  Which, sitting at the gate for 1/48th of someone's real life fucking day, or worse half their alloted playtime because Life, is fucked.  And I'll get more accomplished, playing a useless game of Overwatch II, so why bother logging into Arm.

With undertones of hostility, you've kind of managed to sidestep the opposition in order to try and make them say something they aren't.

No one is -forcing- you to wait for 30 minutes.  The only force you're subjected to is the same force that everyone else is subjected to, which is that you should probably plan your adventures, and recognize consequences of things that happen in game.  I don't mean 'suffer the consequences', I mean that when you encounter random-scenario #312 in the wilds that will take a big chunk of your time to deal with, rectify, or interact with...heading towards closing gates will either be a race, or you find some other form of shelter.

Or, when you're limited on time, you acknowledge that limitation on time to avoid putting yourself into scenarios that will then have their own possible downsides.

This isn't anyone shitting on you.  This isn't some mechanic put in JUST to make you suffer.  It's a coded element of a city's behavior that you have to acknowledge and take into account when you are in a character that consistently goes through those gates and probably should be hyper-aware of how much time they have to accomplish x or y.

Oddly, this is actually facilitation of RP in its own right as long as you play around it, instead of insisting it's part of a widespread conspiracy to make you miserable.  People avoid leaving the gates later in the day if they know they won't get as much done, so they congregate or find something else in city to do.  People who get stuck outside might hunker down, or they might travel elsewhere in the world to try and beat darkness in a safer place.  People who run into an encounter in the wilds realize they have to change their plan because they won't get inside in time.  People who take groups out have a real reason to have a sense of urgency about things.

You can minimize those things all you like, but they are all elements of roleplay that make sense and are not thrust upon you any more than deciding what class's limitations you'll have or which part of the world you'll focus on with your play.

As noted, I don't have particular problems with shifting hours or changes.  But coming out guns blazing like this is all just to hamper you as if you have no say in the matter is not exactly the most compelling argument to make.  You can account for this possibility of inconvenience and make it character-like behavior in the roleplaying game where it makes sense, or you can insist it's all just a nefarious waste of time that you have nothing to do with.  I don't particularly mind in any direction.

[dumbstruck]

One way you can avoid this frustration is avoiding playing in Allanak.

Luir's doesn't do this. Tuluk doesn't do this. Cenyr doesn't do this. Basically only Allanak and Red Storm button up at night like that.

[Jihelu]

I find it annoying to have the gates closed at night and most of the shops closed at night. As someone with less and less time to play, time spent where I might get inside, stable the mount, and go roleplay are being replaced with 'Damn, gates are closed' then I type quit.
Then I check the site when I can log back on to see if its day. If not, I probably don't log on. Thus meaning I'm playing the game even less, after I already stopped playing the game.

[Halaster]

I have an idea for a solution.  Let's lean into that C in MCB!

Keep it like it is, and it closes when it does now.  However, we add a mechanism that you could bribe a gateguard into opening it for you to let you in...

[The Lonely Hunter]

I have an idea for a solution.  Let's lean into that C in MCB!

Keep it like it is, and it closes when it does now.  However, we add a mechanism that you could bribe a gateguard into opening it for you to let you in...

Don't forget, you can always bribe a PC as well!

[Krath]

Quit is your friend, shops closed, dark, gates closed....quit, come back in 30 minutes

[Kavrick]

Quit is your friend, shops closed, dark, gates closed....quit, come back in 30 minutes

I do want to point out, game mechanics that encourage people to quit out of the game can't be good for player activity.

[Suhuy]

Quit is your friend, shops closed, dark, gates closed....quit, come back in 30 minutes

I do want to point out, game mechanics that encourage people to quit out of the game can't be good for player activity.

Though I may be wrong, I think that was his exact point with the statement.

[Windstorm]

Quit is your friend, shops closed, dark, gates closed....quit, come back in 30 minutes

The point is that a lot of people will do this and wind up not logging back in.

In the case of a newer player who isn't hooked and is having their time wasted, sometimes that means not logging in again at all, ever.

[Windstorm]

I have an idea for a solution.  Let's lean into that C in MCB!

Keep it like it is, and it closes when it does now.  However, we add a mechanism that you could bribe a gateguard into opening it for you to let you in...

Your solution here in the ways that it matters is still something that winds up punishing newer players who might not have coin, and at least in my view is not at all fixing the problem. Veteran players will have the coin at hand and know they need the coin at hand, where a new player is much more likely to trip on this before they know what they're doing, and then quit over it - never to return.

If there's a pattern here to be recognized, it's that older gameplay-focused players on Arm are always going to push for "harsh" stuff that they'll always know the way to get past anyway. The people who want the "harsh" don't have a problem shrugging, then going right past it. Only the newer players wind up losing out on "harsh" stuff, making it not harsh at all, just punishing for the uninformed.

Newer players losing out on it sucks. We lose them that way before they become ArmageddonMUD players.

Above, Krath illustrated my entire point beautifully, if unintentionally: "Just log out."

That's right. The best way to play ArmageddonMUD when it's inconveniencing  you is to log out. To stop playing ArmageddonMUD. Newer players also don't log back in. They got bored and inconvenienced, and they left.

[Inks]

RP wise the closed gates create more tavern interactions and opportunities for RP, in my opinion. And less spamhunting.

I don't think new players are being scared away by closed gates in Allanak and Storm.

There are many other spheres which don't have closed gates if for whatever reason they make it unplayable for you.

I also wouldn't rage at all if they were open at night I just think it is much better having them secure at night.

I do like the bribing mechanic Halaster suggested though. Yes please! Very C in MCB. I would adore that.

[Roon]

RP wise the closed gates create more tavern interactions and opportunities for RP, in my opinion. And less spamhunting.

While this may be true in principle, that principle isn't worth much when the reality is that the taverns and streets are usually empty even when the gates are closed. Then it's a net negative. You get the annoyance of the game's main central hub being closed 1/3rd of the time, but you get none of the benefits that this could in theory create.

That point in time, way back when one could realistically argue that it helped generate a meaningful amount of roleplay, is long gone. It is a self-evident fact that Allanak shutting down a full third of the time has not successfully maintained an active social scene. It's daft to cling to a negative because we pine for the positive that it may have once brought, long ago in the past. Clearly, keeping the gate schedule has not helped in that regard. It just made people stop playing in Allanak.

The principle itself doesn't even hold up, to be honest. This is a game of two cities. That other city has never closed its gates at night (unless a horny gurth got too close, but that's another matter). This fact didn't seem to have any adverse effects on Tuluk. While it would be far-fetched to say that Tuluk has been thriving and awesome at all times, it would be equally frivolous to say that the city's problems stem from the fact that the gates don't close at night.

In fact, even in Tuluk (or Luir's or Cenyr or wherever), people don't generally venture out at night. The gates being open 24/7 is not some sort of carte blanche for people to ignore the in-game clock. If nothing else, the visibility mechanics prohibit that. Nobody is asking for the gates of Allanak to remain open so that they can start a hunting trip at late night. It's so that if you get back two minutes past dusk, you're not left to jerk off under the dragon statue for half an hour.

It's actually really absurd that a bunch of people in this thread have clung to the ridiculous argument that anyone wants the gates to stay open so that they can fuck around in the desert at night. Nobody would do that. People just don't want to be told, as someone bizarrely suggested earlier, that they should "simply log off for a while" if their RPT happened to last ten minutes longer than expected.

And as I alluded to earlier, there's also the realism angle: why is the absolute strongest and most resourceful civilization in the Known World, which also happens to be a haven for the only demographic that actually could potentially operate at night thanks to magick, one of the few places in Zalanthas that keeps such nonsensically strict regulations on when one can or cannot enter the place? It simply doesn't make sense. If anything, realism would suggest that every settled location shuts itself at night except Allanak. That's what would actually make in-game sense.

It all just seems to be a pointless holdover from days-gone-by which people are now retroactively inventing make-believe reasons for keeping in place, despite how directly and demonstrably it hurts the game. Maybe if it was a Zalanthas-wide cultural norm to shut all settlements at night, it could be defended as a fundamental aspect of the game. But that's not the case.

[Inks]

I find your arguments very reasonable compared to a lot on here Roon.

I am sure many were basing their gates being barred at night realism thing from cities of the medieval world being barred at night which were a lot safer than the Vrun of Zalanthas.

But your arguments are very reasonable and well written, as I said I wouldn't rage about it if it did happen, but now I would even feel more okay about it. Kudos.

Back to OP: The gates should close at night not dusk 100% agree with this.

[Riev]

I have an idea for a solution.  Let's lean into that C in MCB!

Keep it like it is, and it closes when it does now.  However, we add a mechanism that you could bribe a gateguard into opening it for you to let you in...

If only someone suggested this 3 pages ago.

[Night Queen]

I'm hardly one of those veteran players and I really don't want the atmosphere toned down like this, I like the way it is at the moment, I think it adds danger and potential for excitement that there wouldn't be otherwise. When things are toned down for "playability" the RP setting suffers most of the time and I think this is one of those cases



Issue with being able to bribe to get in is it'd be meaningless since a lot of simple hunter grebber types are rich anyway! I guess if it was a LOT of coins then maybe, would give the Crimson Wind something to do.

Maybe at night we should have horrible mutated nuclearwaste-esque creatures from proximity to the magick of the walls, creeping out from beneath the sand to feed...

People that won't come to the Gaj at night to RP are part of the problem and could do better really. This goes for Sergeants that don't encourage Byn to do the traditional activities as well (a lot of stuff gets driven by having that group around)!

[Brokkr]

Just noting that between this getting implemented and now, there was an effort to push the tougher aggro NPCs back away from the gates.  Used to be you might find a scrab or gith captain three or four rooms from the gates.  So beyond everything else, the "game" necessity of having them closed at night has changed.  Since powerful aggro NPCs don't tend to divebomb the gates.

Also of note just because I think it has changed player behavior is that time didn't used to sync.  So like when the hour changes IG being linked to XX:10, XX:20 etc. RL clock.  So folks tended to come back in earlier, etc. This may have also killed some of the benefits.

[Kestria]

I have an idea for a solution.  Let's lean into that C in MCB!

Keep it like it is, and it closes when it does now.  However, we add a mechanism that you could bribe a gateguard into opening it for you to let you in...

'rent guard' Like you do backrooms in taverns for the backroom.  To be let in for a set amount of coin, like 100.

2 IG years later, these guards are going to be wearing ankheg from all the bribes they get!

[Armaddict]

I think it's a good compromise.  I'd honestly PREFER that such bribes were done through actual PC's of the Arm to increase interaction webs, but I'm not sure how active the Arm stays at most times right now, so that may not be feasible at all.

[Lizzie]

I don't feel strongly for or against changing the Allanak gates. However I still think that simply making them shut at night instead of dusk would give players more time to get in, and less time stuck out.  By late afternoon if you're not already on your way back to the city, you should just plan to - not get back to the city.

But you have to account for the "daylight" hours to disengage from or kill that lone critter who runs into you on your way back.  If it's night-time, then the planning error is on you. If the sun is still out, then the gate could still be open.

So as I said up-thread - "dusk" should still be open. Good time to add some room echoes and timed scripts to shout to grebbers outside to get in, maybe a final warning at the stables that if you're planning on getting out of town, you'd best finish packing your mount and go.

[Feu de Joie]

The Gates should close at dusk, open at dawn.

Citizens of Allanak should have to wait 30 secs, and pay 50 sid (racial and/or House affiliation adjustments too) to get in.

[Lotion]

Quit is your friend, shops closed, dark, gates closed....quit, come back in 30 minutes

I do want to point out, game mechanics that encourage people to quit out of the game can't be good for player activity.

Similarly bad are mechanics that encourage people to afk for long periods of time

[ShaiHulud]

Sorry Hal and others. Gate closing does not need anything. Leave as is. Learn, deal, adjust.

To add, you think we are losing players because of gate closures? That is a straw, man.

[Roon]

To add, you think we are losing players because of gate closures? That is a straw, man.

Absolutely. While this game might not have lost droves of people specifically because the gates of Allanak close at night, I think that fact has driven more and more players to play away from the city. This, I know for certain, has caused some players to leave the game. The fact that Allanak is so inconvenient to play in when you don't have 6+ hours a day, which then leads this game's supposed main hub to feel empty more often than not. The fact that it's boring to play in a city that is closed off from the rest of the world a full third of the time. The fact that the game at large has generally drifted to favor the ranger playstyle, and how this affects the city that shuts its gates 1/3rd of the time. That has had a direct and measurable impact on Allanak's activity level, and since all roads figuratively lead to Allanak, a dearth in players there is felt throughout the whole game. Things grind to a halt everywhere if there's nothing going on in the Black City, and as players grow older, having to wait half an hour for the gates to open becomes a bigger and bigger deterrent. The result is that there aren't enough players in Allanak to make the world go 'round. Simple as that.


Moderated by Kestria

[CirclelessBard]

To add, you think we are losing players because of gate closures?

It's a simple fact of game design that if a player has nothing to do in a game, and nothing to engage with, they are going to lose interest and turn off/log out of the game.

There is a pretty good chance that a player will tolerate an individual gate closure or shop closure or other time-based inconvenient thing if they are already having fun with the game. What's 30 minutes when that last RP scene lasted 3 hours and was super fun, right? Great time to take a break and rest your eyes.

But if they are constantly locked out of things, not able to find RP opportunities, and not able to participate in the collaborative storytelling experience that the game advertises on both its website and promotional posts, then yes, players will absolutely leave, and they will go to games that offer consistent RP experiences, of which there are now many.

The better question to ask is "Do gate closures contribute to a player being unable to find roleplay?" and the answer is yes, either by locking the player themselves out of roleplaying opportunities, or locking out other players that could have potentially interacted with that player.

[LindseyBalboa]

To add, you think we are losing players because of gate closures? That is a straw, man.

Absolutely. While this game might not have lost droves of people specifically because the gates of Allanak close at night, I think that fact has driven more and more players to play away from the city. This, I know for certain, has caused some players to leave the game. The fact that Allanak is so inconvenient to play in when you don't have 6+ hours a day, which then leads this game's supposed main hub to feel empty more often than not. The fact that it's boring to play in a city that is closed off from the rest of the world a full third of the time. The fact that the game at large has generally drifted to favor the ranger playstyle, and how this affects the city that shuts its gates 1/3rd of the time. That has had a direct and measurable impact on Allanak's activity level, and since all roads figuratively lead to Allanak, a dearth in players there is felt throughout the whole game. Things grind to a halt everywhere if there's nothing going on in the Black City, and as players grow older, having to wait half an hour for the gates to open becomes a bigger and bigger deterrent. The result is that there aren't enough players in Allanak to make the world go 'round. Simple as that.

the cities are the busiest places in the game right now.

allanak is popping.

wouldn't gates being open all the time be more about wilderness PCs trying to come hang out?

show up earlier, wastelander. night's dangerous.

[Lotion]

I just logged in with plans to do wilderness things but saw that it was 8 minutes into late afternoon and logged out

[Dune Bunny]

Can't say I've ever felt like the gates were hindering my time in Armageddon, even when stuck outside at night. It's fun solo rp to be worried about what might come, or to just set up camp under the dragon and do whatever, way people, etc. I've bribed a few templar PCs to open the gates for me, which was nice and terrifying in it's own right, especially the one time I offered way less than he was expecting. XD

I can definitely see where it might be an inconvenience to other players though. Sometimes you leave the salt flats at early afternoon, but ten scorpions and their annoying as hell poison later, you're just a few minutes late to get inside the gaping, fiery gates of Nez Shabbar, I mean, the gates to Allanak.

I personally don't feel like there's a pressing need for a change, but if there's going to be one, why not just mix some of the ideas in this thread to give leeway to both sides?

Make the gates now close at late night, and add in a bribe mechanic for anyone that poorly managed their time and couldn't make it back during dusk. Maybe add in a scary RP element to it, that will have a gate guard psi/alert any pc templars on at the time that some self-important grebber just bribed them to open up those massive gates so he could bring in his beetle with 25 dead chalton remains strapped to it.

[FantasyWriter]

Happy medium: Codify bribing the gate guards and have it alert PC Templars and MAYBE soldiers.

I mean the outside of gates weren't even quit rooms (also before >quit ooc). That was a HUGE help. Imaging being stuck outside and having to wait to enter the gates just to log out with a non-ranger.

100 coins get you in/out
1000 coins get you in/out with a 90% chance of not getting ratted out by the guard.

[mansa]

This thread has been heavily moderated over the past days.

The reasons have been:
Insults
Trolling


The General Discussion Board is not a debate.  You can't "win" conversations with logic and passion.  The discussion board is where we discuss topics as a community, and the community is varied in opinion, thought, and feelings.  We are anonymous players typing into computer devices about our passion of a particular roleplaying game.

People are allowed to suggest that closing the gates early will hamper roleplay opportunities. People are allowed to suggest that closing the gates early will not hamper roleplay opportunities. What shouldn't be expected is to have another player's opinion be changed based on well crafted arguments.