dune trader branching is bad

[Lotion]

skinning -> leather working -> armor repair -> armor making

Putting armor making after armor repair is very commonly hated. Sentiments expressing disgust for how old merchant used to need to do armor making before armor repair are very commonplace while gratitude for this fact are exceedingly rare. It sucks from a gameplay perspective.

tentmaking -> bandagemaking
tentmaking -> clothworking
Tentmaking requires very specific items. I've heard there's a tent that can be made only from chalton skinnables which is in theory nice, but the fact that someone felt the need to cc a tent just so they can fail to make it and unlock clothworking on a Red Storm Village based dune trader speaks volumes about how bad this is.

Suggested Fix:
Remove all branching of crafting skills for Dune Trader.

[mansa]

...But Dune Trader just got buffed during the last release?

[Quelan]

armor making being after armor repair is why merchants used to be told to take armorcrafting as their subguild like 100% of the time because it was effectively impossible to branch

so even with the recent improvement to how armor repair works, have to say that should probably get changed

[Pariah]

I agree that Armor Repair being fixed is awesome, but that it feels like it's backwards.  One or a few of you dune traders who disagree with the branching path should put in requests and ask to have it flip flopped.

[Kaathe]

I advocated for this with Brokkr and got a hard no on branching changes due to intentional balancing of the class. In the same conversation we also got a fix to how armor repair works so it's trainable and useful. And I committed to delivering 2 new hide tent recipes so anyone can train it easily in any region.  That's a total of 4 unique easily acquired non cloth tent recipes. There's more too, but less easily acquired. 

It's a little frustrating to see this because there has been a lot of discord, request tool, and idb discussion, plus work by Hal, myself, and other staff reviewing. Players and staff seemed happy with the plan. Granted none of that was on the gdb so you've no way to know.  Please just try it before calling it bad after such recent work to improve it.  The new tent recipes will be out by the next release if not before. 

[Riev]

A lot of work went into this but none of it was player facing. You should not expect players to know whats going on if there is no communication.

Also it seems to be one players opinion.

[Lotion]

...But Dune Trader just got buffed during the last release?

It wasn't enough

[Kaathe]

A lot of work went into this but none of it was player facing. You should not expect players to know whats going on if there is no communication.

yeah I noted that above.

Definitely need feedback on if the changes are enough. It was mentioned in discord armor damage is broken? Branching won't change unless someone can convince Brokkr. But the systems and crafting around it can and should be further improved if needed.

I'm not really going to hear complaints though unless people have tried new armor repair. And the new tents. Because I've heard all the complaints before  and advocated for change at length for some months.

[Lotion]

Branching won't change unless someone can convince Brokkr.

Not true. We just have to wait until he dies.

[Riev]

A lot of work went into this but none of it was player facing. You should not expect players to know whats going on if there is no communication.

Definitely need feedback on if the changes are enough. It was mentioned in discord armor damage is broken? Branching won't change unless someone can convince Brokkr. But the systems and crafting around it can and should be further improved if needed.

I'm not really going to hear complaints though unless people have tried new armor repair. And the new tents. Because I've heard all the complaints before  and advocated for change at length for some months.

1. I don't mean to alarm you, but not everyone is in the Discord to know there are discussions taking place.
2. Its not my job as a player to convince a producer to change things, especially with some who believe that changing their mind is tantamount to treason.
3. You absolutely will hear complaints from people who do you think you are?

It's a little frustrating to see this because there has been a lot of discord, request tool, and idb discussion, plus work by Hal, myself, and other staff reviewing. Players and staff seemed happy with the plan. Granted none of that was on the gdb so you've no way to know.  Please just try it before calling it bad after such recent work to improve it.  The new tent recipes will be out by the next release if not before. 

4. I understand you 'noted' it above, but you are saying how frustrating it is BECAUSE there's been a lot of discussion. Among you, Hal, and other staff. Can you tell me what "players and staff" seemed happy with the plan? If none of it was on the GDB, how are those of us who are not in the Discord supposed to keep up with your discussions?

Its a little frustrating to see staff say they are frustrated about players not knowing whats going on, when they're not kept in the loop. You can't say "everyone agrees" if you don't let everyone know whats going on.

[Synthesis]

The only difficult impossible dune trader branch (if you're not in Allanak) was armor repair > armor making.

That seems to have been fixed.

That being said, I've only played a dune trader in a clan that more or less had an at-will (or available shortly) supply of just about whatever you could possibly need.  Looking over the tree with a mind to Allanak-based PCs:

1. Branching from skinning should be easy. Tons of things to "skin" even if you never leave the city.
2. Branching from leatherworking should be easy. Branching from armor repair is now still difficult, but not impossible.
3. Branching from forage is easy.
4. Branching from stonecrafting is easy.
5. Branching from lumberjacking if you are truly solo will be impossible. But this is not a single-player game. Other PCs will go and grab logs for you, I promise. I have never had difficulty getting logs as an Allanak-based merchant.
6. Once you have a log supply, branching from woodworking is easy.
7. Branching from bow making is actually easy now, since there's a scrab-guts bowstring recipe. Presumably this recipe is available at newb status. If it isn't, that changes things.
8. Branching from archery...eh...who cares?
9. Branching from cooking is easy.
10. Branching from tentmaking is easy once you have a log supply.
11. Branching from spearmaking is easy once you have a log supply.  Edit: actually, you can branch from spearmaking without ever actually making a spear, just by crafting spearheads from stuff you can forage yourself.

I don't see a problem. Your one limiting factor is paying someone to go get logs for you. I'd say this is solved by getting to jewelrymaking as fast as possible, so you have plenty of 'sid to pay them to do it.

[Brokkr]

2. Its not my job as a player to convince a producer to change things, especially with some who believe that changing their mind is tantamount to treason.

When coming up with the new classes, I very nearly did not give Dune Trader armor making at all, because of the extreme synergy within the guild skillset with other wilderness skills, specifically skinning/riding. Instead, I targeted a later game branching, which is harder to do with crafting skills than most other skills.  I wanted to avoid having folks branching armor making at 3 days played, I was hoping for 10+ days played.

I am not wedded to armor making branching from armor repair, but I would like to keep armor making a later game branch for Dune Traders.  Not something you can blow through to like you can with most crafting skills. I haven't seen a suggestion that makes sense that would accomplish that, just a lot that would make it easier to branch much, much faster.

[Kaathe]

10 and 11 will no longer require wood or cloth once my recipes are approved. Soon...

Riev I don't think you understand what little power I have as ST and what my job is as ST.  I think that colors your reaction to what I said.  But in short my job is my clans, I have to get approval for literally everything else, and if I'm behind on clan support I get frowned at (rightfully) for pursuing other stuff.

So to clarify, If you're in my clan I absolutely have to hear any and all of your complaints and will happily do so.  Outside that, it's opt in.  I did my best here advocating for something outside my purview. We got what the staff that approve things were willing to approve (at the time).

For the record, Brokkr and other prods listen to collective player input much more closely than they listen to Kaathe, as they should. So indeed, it's not a players job to advocate for change. The job of a player is to have fun. But you have the power collectively to do way more than I can.

Also I am allowed to have feelings and I didnt expect sharing them would cause people to be upset. I didn't say lotion was wrong to want what he wants nor was he wrong to share it. He's right to do that.  But  given what you now know of my job here, what else do you want from me?

[Riev]

2. Its not my job as a player to convince a producer to change things, especially with some who believe that changing their mind is tantamount to treason.

When coming up with the new classes, I very nearly did not give Dune Trader armor making at all, because of the extreme synergy within the guild skillset with other wilderness skills, specifically skinning/riding. Instead, I targeted a later game branching, which is harder to do with crafting skills than most other skills.  I wanted to avoid having folks branching armor making at 3 days played, I was hoping for 10+ days played.

I am not wedded to armor making branching from armor repair, but I would like to keep armor making a later game branch for Dune Traders.  Not something you can blow through to like you can with most crafting skills. I haven't seen a suggestion that makes sense that would accomplish that, just a lot that would make it easier to branch much, much faster.

Legitimately, this helps players with any suggestions if indeed you're open to them.

While someone may not agree, at least we know WHY you did it this way. I'm from the generation where we as players told the staff that Armor Repair was ACTUALLY BROKEN and we were told thats incorrect, we were wrong, just try harder.

Until Mike looked at it and it was, in fact, not working. So you can understand, I hope, the reticence to someone believing a branch off armor repair is a good idea.

[betweenford]

2. Its not my job as a player to convince a producer to change things, especially with some who believe that changing their mind is tantamount to treason.

When coming up with the new classes, I very nearly did not give Dune Trader armor making at all, because of the extreme synergy within the guild skillset with other wilderness skills, specifically skinning/riding. Instead, I targeted a later game branching, which is harder to do with crafting skills than most other skills.  I wanted to avoid having folks branching armor making at 3 days played, I was hoping for 10+ days played.

I am not wedded to armor making branching from armor repair, but I would like to keep armor making a later game branch for Dune Traders.  Not something you can blow through to like you can with most crafting skills. I haven't seen a suggestion that makes sense that would accomplish that, just a lot that would make it easier to branch much, much faster.

they're not branching armor making at 10+ days, it's much more like 30-90 irl days played and then storing or dying before they branch armor repair into armor making.

[MarshallDFX]

they're not branching armor making at 10+ days, it's much more like 30-90 irl days played and then storing or dying before they branch armor repair into armor making.

Presumably that was before the change though?

[Kaathe]

New craftable leather tent and its two recipes are in now game!

[Brokkr]

2. Its not my job as a player to convince a producer to change things, especially with some who believe that changing their mind is tantamount to treason.

When coming up with the new classes, I very nearly did not give Dune Trader armor making at all, because of the extreme synergy within the guild skillset with other wilderness skills, specifically skinning/riding. Instead, I targeted a later game branching, which is harder to do with crafting skills than most other skills.  I wanted to avoid having folks branching armor making at 3 days played, I was hoping for 10+ days played.

I am not wedded to armor making branching from armor repair, but I would like to keep armor making a later game branch for Dune Traders.  Not something you can blow through to like you can with most crafting skills. I haven't seen a suggestion that makes sense that would accomplish that, just a lot that would make it easier to branch much, much faster.

they're not branching armor making at 10+ days, it's much more like 30-90 irl days played and then storing or dying before they branch armor repair into armor making.

That has certainly not been my experience.  It has been a little less than a year and a half since I played a Dune Trader.  I took a look at the character just now and I had branched armor making. I had 8 days played.  Literally all I did was wander around a certain place and pick stuff up off the ground a few times.  I know that those particular items were broken for a little while between then and now, but it has been months and months at this point since I fixed them.

I am not sure how it would take 30-90 days played if you were actively looking to work on the skill.  Maybe if you were passively waiting in a city (why are you playing a Dune Trader then?) for items to show up in shops this timeframe would be relevant?

[dumbstruck]

2. Its not my job as a player to convince a producer to change things, especially with some who believe that changing their mind is tantamount to treason.

When coming up with the new classes, I very nearly did not give Dune Trader armor making at all, because of the extreme synergy within the guild skillset with other wilderness skills, specifically skinning/riding. Instead, I targeted a later game branching, which is harder to do with crafting skills than most other skills.  I wanted to avoid having folks branching armor making at 3 days played, I was hoping for 10+ days played.

I am not wedded to armor making branching from armor repair, but I would like to keep armor making a later game branch for Dune Traders.  Not something you can blow through to like you can with most crafting skills. I haven't seen a suggestion that makes sense that would accomplish that, just a lot that would make it easier to branch much, much faster.

they're not branching armor making at 10+ days, it's much more like 30-90 irl days played and then storing or dying before they branch armor repair into armor making.

That has certainly not been my experience.  It has been a little less than a year and a half since I played a Dune Trader.  I took a look at the character just now and I had branched armor making. I had 8 days played.  Literally all I did was wander around a certain place and pick stuff up off the ground a few times.  I know that those particular items were broken for a little while between then and now, but it has been months and months at this point since I fixed them.

I am not sure how it would take 30-90 days played if you were actively looking to work on the skill.  Maybe if you were passively waiting in a city (why are you playing a Dune Trader then?) for items to show up in shops this timeframe would be relevant?

How accessible would these items and the knowledge of these items would you consider to be for the average player who does not have any extra understanding of what makes the code brrr, in and outs, and other weird shit? I understand that your experience as the one who helped design the thing, actively control basically all aspects of the game and knows all of them inside and out is probably a bit different than your average person playing. It feels like characterizing other people not having the same priveleged inside knowledge that you have of the game to exploit as being just sitting around and waiting and why even play the guild is... kind of creating a false equivalency.

'You must not be trying or doing everything you know of to do a thing that I know all the special shit about how it works because you took 5-10x as long as me to do it', that type of thing. It really is like people who were on about finding out IC all the new brew stuff when it came out and it's like 'from who, the people who designed it? why not NOT use specialized knowledge from being the one who created the system to have your character be in power over others IC and be the first source of information on a new system when the system already existed and just got overhauled in a way that can kill any pc? literally why not just share the information in help files then, rather than making your characters the gatekeepers of obscure knowledge that makes the code do what you want', obviously the people who designed the new system knew what it was and were the only ones not out there having to risk death for their pcs about it. But the knowledge is gate kept.

And then the people who don't know the special tricks and exploits (and please tell me 'go pick up gith armor all over the desert and fix it is not an exploit when there is no reasonable reason for a person to behave that way when it's all heavy, stinks, and is basically worthless, is not an exploit for levelling the skill, especially one that new players don't have access to, let alone where the gith spawn, or when the desert elves are around to avoid them to do it. if we were treating things like they were reasonable roles acted reasonably, not forcing people to do stuff that makes no sense for almost any character, that would make no sense as the expected training methodology to unlock something, especially given in a climate where if someone uses the wrong word to describe the weapon they want gets comments in front of everyone on the gdb about how their karma might be reviewed for it)... those people wind up taking unreasonably long in your game design plans because they're not doing gamey shit that makes no sense for their characters. Not everyone is *** and willing to go spar npcs barefisted shit with a shield for 9 days played to see if it gets damaged, some people want to play a character that does other things.

[betweenford]

2. Its not my job as a player to convince a producer to change things, especially with some who believe that changing their mind is tantamount to treason.

When coming up with the new classes, I very nearly did not give Dune Trader armor making at all, because of the extreme synergy within the guild skillset with other wilderness skills, specifically skinning/riding. Instead, I targeted a later game branching, which is harder to do with crafting skills than most other skills.  I wanted to avoid having folks branching armor making at 3 days played, I was hoping for 10+ days played.

I am not wedded to armor making branching from armor repair, but I would like to keep armor making a later game branch for Dune Traders.  Not something you can blow through to like you can with most crafting skills. I haven't seen a suggestion that makes sense that would accomplish that, just a lot that would make it easier to branch much, much faster.

they're not branching armor making at 10+ days, it's much more like 30-90 irl days played and then storing or dying before they branch armor repair into armor making.

That has certainly not been my experience.  It has been a little less than a year and a half since I played a Dune Trader.  I took a look at the character just now and I had branched armor making. I had 8 days played.  Literally all I did was wander around a certain place and pick stuff up off the ground a few times.  I know that those particular items were broken for a little while between then and now, but it has been months and months at this point since I fixed them.

I am not sure how it would take 30-90 days played if you were actively looking to work on the skill.  Maybe if you were passively waiting in a city (why are you playing a Dune Trader then?) for items to show up in shops this timeframe would be relevant?

Tribal camp, brokkr. Tribal camp.

Relying on items that spawned in as codedly broken in a specific part of the game world is not indicative of the average player experience, especially not for those who are iso in nature and simply unable to walk or run to such a location because a carru or bahamet or mekillot will stomp them as soon as they leave camp

[Brokkr]

How accessible would these items and the knowledge of these items would you consider to be for the average player

Extremely accessible, given they have the same state flags as everything else, so an average player can tell with a glance that they are damaged.

please tell me 'go pick up gith armor all over the desert

Some well worn, worthless stuff that would be in the exact sort of worn condition that would be useful to figure out how stuff damaged in different ways can be repaired?  That you can learn the craft on without worrying about ruining something of value?  Not sure how that would not be IC.

If you are worried about Staff frowning on this sort of behavior, I'll just say I am the one that specifically made sure that when they were re-done for the plot that the armor that was written up included damaged pieces, to create the opportunity for armor repair to be used and reinforcing certain aspects of gith culture.

Relying on items that spawned in as codedly broken in a specific part of the game world is not indicative of the average player experience, especially not for those who are iso in nature and simply unable to walk or run to such a location because a carru or bahamet or mekillot will stomp them as soon as they leave camp

ISO is not the average character experience.  Remember, the character I am referring to was also a Dune Trader.  It is about risk and reward.  I am not saying it is the path everyone needs to take, I am saying there is a path there. Whether or not you choose to pursue it is up to you, but do not complain about it not being possible at 10 days when it clearly is. The hyperbole needs to  stop.  It gets in the way of constructive, informed feedback and is frankly a good way to get ignored as not knowing what you are talking about.

[dumbstruck]

stuff

Thank you, sincerely, for your measured response. I came in a bit hotter than I intended to maybe.

Can I recommend that something at least be added to public facing help files accessible in game to help new players have some idea of where to go to look to do this? In game it is very common knowledge in any place a relatively new player could easily access this from, that gith drop this equipment, and should be doubly more known if your character's livelihood quite possibly depends on accessing it, which means that it's really only the newest and most ignorant of the world people who are suffering by it not being documented. (Which was part of what I was trying to get at, not that it was off in some special place that no one could get to, but if you don't know something, how would you even know to ask about it to learn it? Whereas if there was a nudge in the armor repair help file, for instance, the people losing out the most on not knowing what should be (commonly to their respective areas) common knowledge, would have a more equitable and enjoyable play experience, which is what my goal and desire in engaging in the discussion is.

I already knew that armor making wasn't going to branch off of armor repair, and in no way expect it to change. If it was going to it would have happened when the class was designed and this one was given that albatross of a branch where artisan was not. I disagree with it as a game design decision but I understand and respect it. And again, if you know OOCly that it can be used for that, that is OOC knowledge, that the other player does not have. Which IS OOC. Not everything OOC is negative. But conflating player knowledge and character knowledge when the other player doesn't HAVE the knowledge to GIVE their character, just seems very unfair, and I don't think that is what anyone's goal is, or sincerely hope not at least. If that makes sense? I would not be asking about including it in help files and the like if it weren't so strongly to discourage discussing or giving information about things that are not public help file accessible that are in game, disadvantaging new players in key play experiences and causing them not to experience in the game as it would seem to be designed.

[betweenford]

Relying on items that spawned in as codedly broken in a specific part of the game world is not indicative of the average player experience, especially not for those who are iso in nature and simply unable to walk or run to such a location because a carru or bahamet or mekillot will stomp them as soon as they leave camp

ISO is not the average character experience.  Remember, the character I am referring to was also a Dune Trader.  It is about risk and reward.  I am not saying it is the path everyone needs to take, I am saying there is a path there. Whether or not you choose to pursue it is up to you, but do not complain about it not being possible at 10 days when it clearly is. The hyperbole needs to  stop.  It gets in the way of constructive, informed feedback and is frankly a good way to get ignored as not knowing what you are talking about.

What hyperbole? I am literally referencing somewhat recent tribal camp pc's who after several MONTHS of ic play, where they've maxed out every other crafting skill, could not even find or attempt a single Armor Repair roll due to sufficiently damaged armor not being available. Months of IRL time, going to markets. Travelling all over the game world to try and find sufficiently damaged armor and reportedly not being able to find a damn thing. One even going so far as to purposefully try to pursue battles with megafauna for irl hours at a time to damage shields, worn armor, etc, and finding zero success beyond getting 2 or so items to "used" quality. Both dune traders. That isn't hyperbole, that's experience.

Just because you managed to "easily find" broken gith equipment or whatever before "fixing it" doesn't mean that's everyone else's experience. This is the experience of the Dune Traders I've had to work with.  Their other experiences with tentmaking is that they literally could not find any of the materials for making tents without going into cities to trade for them despite the reclusive nature of the role, or travel across the game world to acquire chalton hide because the DB is insufficient. Their access to lumberjacking crafts was also busted due to the nature of the clan, as well as the coded limitations on processing branches. Did you know starting level Lumberjacking is insufficient to attempt any lumberjacking crafts on a typical, common agafari branch? Literally zero? And holding a saw is still 0 recipes? They literally had to dual-wield 2 saws to be able to attempt any starter crafts for lumberjacking.

Even getting to the point where they've had to get to clothmaking is a bit harsh. You've got to make what, more than fifty+ tents before you're even somewhat close to branching? Within the confines of a tribal camp with all too lethal surrounds, I don't think any of the coded camps can support fifty tents laying in containers or being on the floor, and trading fifty tents is annoying unless you literally live a handful of rooms away from civilization. It's a hassle that does not really represent the needs or day-to-day of a nomadic camp limited by arbitrary code.

[Lotion]

if you use hack in the sparring ring you are going to definitely get pk'd by your clanmates btw

[betweenford]

The new changes are nice and definitely mitigate the sucky-nature of Dune Trader and its branching but it is SO bad, to actually play through the start of a dune trader within a tribal camp.