Subguild None and Mages

[LindseyBalboa]

Proposing we allow people with subguild none to pick magick subguilds. There's no karma regen now, so there's not really any 'gain' they'd be getting by waiting.

And I actually think it might cut down on gicks if we allow people more choices - but at the worst, status quo as-is. I could see myself thinking I'd go gick at some point and falling in with a cool crew I didn't want to alienate by being a gick. Players that want characters with a chance of being sorcerer would be able to play and also not be a gick in the world - and more than likely die before ever doing magick stuff. Really, any subguild none is a mundane til they actually do take a magick guild, and there's a decent chance any character might perish before gickery.

Beyond that, it's already achievable by simply not manifesting, so there's no benefit at all for someone to wait to pick a magick guild. What is a benefit is that someone manifesting as a witch who has been your friend forever is a potentially fresher story in comparison to 'your friend you've known forever has been lying to you bc they're a maxed out witch.' Someone running into gicks in-game and having a bad experience and then manifesting as their element, that's a pretty rad story it'd help facilitate, all the while keeping a gick out of the game until then. Etc.


Idk. Seems only positives, and at the very worst, no negatives.

[Kestria]

First problem I see here, which is likely the reason staff said no on it in the first place.. is people will abuse it.
Someone in Allanak for example, could play with subtle cantrips because their character could just randomly pop into some elemental witch at any point, templar tries to gem them, but, low and behold they are subguild none, and thus, not a witch.
Two weeks later they take a witch subguild and ARE a witch, someone reports them to said templar, who goes.. well they are not because them gem didnt stick.

[Riev]

You're born a 'gick or you aren't born a 'gick. Whether you manifest at thirteen or thirty five, you were always a magicker.

Sure, you can choose a different mundane subguild later because you "took a job with House Kadius and you want to be a clothworker" and your subguild can now reflect that.

But if you were born a witch, its in your blood.

[LindseyBalboa]

First problem I see here, which is likely the reason staff said no on it in the first place.. is people will abuse it.
Someone in Allanak for example, could play with subtle cantrips because their character could just randomly pop into some elemental witch at any point, templar tries to gem them, but, low and behold they are subguild none, and thus, not a witch.
Two weeks later they take a witch subguild and ARE a witch, someone reports them to said templar, who goes.. well they are not because them gem didnt stick.

I mean... using emoted cantrips while not having any magical ability is just cheating no matter what subguild you pick now or later. I see what you're saying but I'm not a huge fan of making rules based on 'what a cheater might do.' I'm not honestly sure if a gem sticks before manifestation or not, but if not, there's no change here either way.

You're born a 'gick or you aren't born a 'gick. Whether you manifest at thirteen or thirty five, you were always a magicker.

Sure, you can choose a different mundane subguild later because you "took a job with House Kadius and you want to be a clothworker" and your subguild can now reflect that.

But if you were born a witch, its in your blood.

That's 100% correct.

I'm proposing a change to the OOC mechanics of this, putting more agency in the hands of players to make a choice about their character development. At worst case scenario, it maintains the status quo if every single subguild none (that plans on maybe becoming a gick) lives long enough to become a gick. At best... it seems like it might lower the amount of gicks in the game, as players choose not to have been a gick/manifest and instead take clothworker for Kadius, or die a mundane before every taking a subguild.

It would not change the in-game reality/theme of a PC always having been a magicker, unbeknownst to them. As per help files, whether or not someone 'embodies' their element is entirely up to the player. If a player wanted to use cantrips and emotes to show they might be a gick before manifestation, they'd need a gick subguild.

Does that make sense?

[dumbstruck]

First problem I see here, which is likely the reason staff said no on it in the first place.. is people will abuse it.
Someone in Allanak for example, could play with subtle cantrips because their character could just randomly pop into some elemental witch at any point, templar tries to gem them, but, low and behold they are subguild none, and thus, not a witch.
Two weeks later they take a witch subguild and ARE a witch, someone reports them to said templar, who goes.. well they are not because them gem didnt stick.

I mean... using emoted cantrips while not having any magical ability is just cheating no matter what subguild you pick now or later. I see what you're saying but I'm not a huge fan of making rules based on 'what a cheater might do.' I'm not honestly sure if a gem sticks before manifestation or not, but if not, there's no change here either way.

It really shouldn't. Knowing the shortcomings of how code works I'm almost certain that it does, but as far as world lore goes, if it does/did, it would literally not make any sense for Allanak not to try and make it a requirement for you to go get your kid tested with the gem when they're born so they don't "accidentally manifest and hurt someone one day".

Edit to add:

In fact, the items at a certain shop in the Quarter were being used once upon a time to test people who were suspected as unmanifested or hidden mages by a templar pc because it was forbidden to use the gem for that purpose (again, likely because of coding shortcomings), and it became so prevalent that the scripts on every item in the shop were removed to end this.

[Patuk]

I'm filing this under the same 'not broken' cabinet that the desert elf changes we might get are. No strong feelings either way.

[LindseyBalboa]

I'm filing this under the same 'not broken' cabinet that the desert elf changes we might get are. No strong feelings either way.

This is adding options and player agency to make decisions about their character growth, not taking anything away, but I get what you mean. I feel like another way of looking at this would be, "a second chance for would-be mages to reconsider and play a mundane like they have been playing." Which may do nothing. Or it may lower the amount of mages on-grid. Idk.

It really shouldn't. Knowing the shortcomings of how code works I'm almost certain that it does, but as far as world lore goes, if it does/did, it would literally not make any sense for Allanak not to try and make it a requirement for you to go get your kid tested with the gem when they're born so they don't "accidentally manifest and hurt someone one day".

If this is a reality in-game it should be changed regardless of this idea. Because... right. Why wouldn't babies be gem-tested at birth.

[Riev]

I'm filing this under the same 'not broken' cabinet that the desert elf changes we might get are. No strong feelings either way.

This is adding options and player agency to make decisions about their character growth, not taking anything away, but I get what you mean. I feel like another way of looking at this would be, "a second chance for would-be mages to reconsider and play a mundane like they have been playing." Which may do nothing. Or it may lower the amount of mages on-grid. Idk.

It really shouldn't. Knowing the shortcomings of how code works I'm almost certain that it does, but as far as world lore goes, if it does/did, it would literally not make any sense for Allanak not to try and make it a requirement for you to go get your kid tested with the gem when they're born so they don't "accidentally manifest and hurt someone one day".

If this is a reality in-game it should be changed regardless of this idea. Because... right. Why wouldn't babies be gem-tested at birth.

For "reasons", gemming a baby at birth does not work.

For other reasons... fuck you for suggesting PC Templars just go around forcing people to try on the gem. Seriously.

[DesertT]

For other reasons... fuck you for suggesting PC Templars just go around forcing people to try on the gem. Seriously.

I'm apping an Oprah Winfrey Templar right now!!

And you get a gem, and -you- get a gem, and YOU get a gem.

!!!EVERYBODY GETS A GEM!!!

[Inks]

I am against being able to go from none to magicker unless it is a "random magicker" option, any touched, any elemental magick sub you have karma for, at random. Would be more in keeping with manifesting rather than a gamey character planning thing. Would actually love to play that option.

[Armaddict]

I am against being able to go from none to magicker unless it is a "random magicker" option, any touched, any elemental magick sub you have karma for, at random. Would be more in keeping with manifesting rather than a gamey character planning thing. Would actually love to play that option.

Hey.  That'd be neat.  I'd go so far as to make it completely random across all subguilds, but that's because I think the 'OOOooooOOOO, I'm a MAGE!' would be both pleasant and unpleasant depending on your character goals; sometimes being a mage ain't a blessing in this world, even though it's what some people like to play.

That's extreme though.  I like random stuff.  Increases playthrough variety.  Makes everything less min-maxey.  I likee.

[Usiku]

It really shouldn't. Knowing the shortcomings of how code works I'm almost certain that it does.

Oh ye of little faith!

[dumbstruck]

I'm filing this under the same 'not broken' cabinet that the desert elf changes we might get are. No strong feelings either way.

This is adding options and player agency to make decisions about their character growth, not taking anything away, but I get what you mean. I feel like another way of looking at this would be, "a second chance for would-be mages to reconsider and play a mundane like they have been playing." Which may do nothing. Or it may lower the amount of mages on-grid. Idk.

It really shouldn't. Knowing the shortcomings of how code works I'm almost certain that it does, but as far as world lore goes, if it does/did, it would literally not make any sense for Allanak not to try and make it a requirement for you to go get your kid tested with the gem when they're born so they don't "accidentally manifest and hurt someone one day".

If this is a reality in-game it should be changed regardless of this idea. Because... right. Why wouldn't babies be gem-tested at birth.

For "reasons", gemming a baby at birth does not work.

For other reasons... fuck you for suggesting PC Templars just go around forcing people to try on the gem. Seriously.

I'm actually not doing that unless you know a lot of newborns who are 18+. I'm saying that the same suspension of disbelief that allows anyone to play a magicker that ever manifests vs has already manifested (despite the documentation having said for years that magickers typically manifest around adolescence and 18 is past adolescence by a couple YEARS) might be extended to people who subguild_none and eventually wound up with a magick subguild. Honestly, if your pc hasn't manifested yet, they SHOULD have subguild_none so they can't wander around casting magick and accidentally wind up affected by shit that affects magickers (like the gem) when they "aren't actively magickers yet". It's not like it requires a request to add your subguild, it's literally instant. So if your pc wants to spontaneously manifest (and thus be able to actually cast), they should then add the subguild, if things worked logically.

It really shouldn't. Knowing the shortcomings of how code works I'm almost certain that it does.

Oh ye of little faith!

It's really cool if this has been changed, because that means that it doesn't require Templar players to listen to what they're told, they can try in vain and have it have... the same effect as it would on someone of subguild_none, right? 

I am against being able to go from none to magicker unless it is a "random magicker" option, any touched, any elemental magick sub you have karma for, at random. Would be more in keeping with manifesting rather than a gamey character planning thing. Would actually love to play that option.

Hey.  That'd be neat.  I'd go so far as to make it completely random across all subguilds, but that's because I think the 'OOOooooOOOO, I'm a MAGE!' would be both pleasant and unpleasant depending on your character goals; sometimes being a mage ain't a blessing in this world, even though it's what some people like to play.

That's extreme though.  I like random stuff.  Increases playthrough variety.  Makes everything less min-maxey.  I likee.

I like this and would like this and have been in favor of it for years.

[Trevalyan]

That's extreme though.  I like random stuff.  Increases playthrough variety.  Makes everything less min-maxey.  I likee.

Without giving an opinion on the magick system, which I am not even qualified to play in right now, I'm kind of stunned how my very well-rounded character is just about perfect for their current roleplaying options.

And yet, it's enormously hard to have both City AND Desert functionality, all while being able to meaningfully contribute to the in-game economy. Try to add Light or Heavy Combat on top of that, and it appears quite impossible... without magick.

[SpyGuy]

I am against being able to go from none to magicker unless it is a "random magicker" option, any touched, any elemental magick sub you have karma for, at random. Would be more in keeping with manifesting rather than a gamey character planning thing. Would actually love to play that option.

Oh damn.  I love randomness so much I'd totally do this for shits and giggles.  I'd want the option to ask staff to set it at a certain element to respond to long term IC circumstances.  Not 'I'm about to die of thirst, I'm a Viv now' and more 'Hey staff, my character just survived a fireball on an RPT.  I want to roleplay it as having awoken a Krathi subclass for me.  Can you switch none to a random Krathi I can play?'

I'm not seeing too many downsides to this even if not random.  I do think many players may choose to not play a magicker if they get in game, start skilling up and find they're enjoying the role without super powers. 

[Usiku]

I LOVE the idea of random magick classes popping up on players. It's an idea I have not-so-seriously floated in the past but it's never got much traction.. Perhaps it makes more sense now with the introduction of subguild: none.

I guess the only issues I see with it are:

- People might just sit there with subguild none indefinitely, forever, hoping they are going to 'pop' a magick subguild and they never do.
- It's important that there should still be a chance of them not being a magicker.. but you can't just drop a random mundane subguild on someone either, since those should be driven player desire.
- It would require a lot of coding to make it an automated, genuinely random thing.
- If it wasn't automated and genuinely random then when there was player disappointment, staff would ultimately get complaints about it.

Alas, perhaps it's just a pipe dream.

[Fragmented]

I LOVE the idea of random magick classes popping up on players. It's an idea I have not-so-seriously floated in the past but it's never got much traction.. Perhaps it makes more sense now with the introduction of subguild: none.

I guess the only issues I see with it are:

- People might just sit there with subguild none indefinitely, forever, hoping they are going to 'pop' a magick subguild and they never do.
- It's important that there should still be a chance of them not being a magicker.. but you can't just drop a random mundane subguild on someone either, since those should be driven player desire.
- It would require a lot of coding to make it an automated, genuinely random thing.
- If it wasn't automated and genuinely random then when there was player disappointment, staff would ultimately get complaints about it.

Alas, perhaps it's just a pipe dream.

I think the suggestion, rather than just sitting as subguild none and hoping was to allow someone to pick subguild "None" and then later at a time of their choice pick subguild "rando magicker" and have randomness to what they are assigned. Could be a viv touched.. could be a nilazi (if they have the karma for it). No control, other than deciding when you pop and "manifest". It sounds cool to me - I'd play one. Not sure how automated that would need to be, other than a diceroll and karma check to see just what sort of magicker the person is stuck with.

[Usiku]

Ah yeah, that makes sense. Not sure on code feasibility, but I like the idea personally. It's something I would want to play anyway! 

[LindseyBalboa]

For "reasons", gemming a baby at birth does not work.

For other reasons... fuck you for suggesting PC Templars just go around forcing people to try on the gem. Seriously.

hey bud gotta be honest, in this conversation about more player agency and how the unmanifested shouldn't be able to be gemmed i'm not sure where you saw people advocating for less agency and the manifested to be able to be gemmed, including and up to being pro- templars taking away player agency by trying to gem the unmanifested.

I am against being able to go from none to magicker unless it is a "random magicker" option, any touched, any elemental magick sub you have karma for, at random. Would be more in keeping with manifesting rather than a gamey character planning thing. Would actually love to play that option.

i think this is a great separate idea that i'd be down with and love to play. i've always liked the idea of being able to manifest at random, not necessarily knowing what your element is, etc. i'd love this as an option, as well, although less so with touched as they give actual mundane skills, lack spells, and feel more 'you're part of your element' to me. it'd be like randomly getting swordsman as a subguild when you were only supposed to be looking through crafting subguilds.

[BadSkeelz]

I showed some player agency on my first character (an AoD soldier) by buying a sack full of Magick Decoder rings in the Gemmed quarter and then forcing anyone who roused suspicions to try them on. Staff responded by taking out the Magick Decoder rings.

How these unguided unmanifested would slip past Templar scrutiny is a problem because it deals with the fundamental nature of zalanthan magick. Is it something people are born with, or something that "finds" them at a random time? Personally I'm in favor of the latter. It makes magick more unpredictable and paranoia-inducing (provided magehood is something feared), and it sidesteps questions like "wait, how did this person manage to hide THIS in THAT place for so long?"

[Riev]

I showed some player agency on my first character (an AoD soldier) by buying a sack full of Magick Decoder rings in the Gemmed quarter and then forcing anyone who roused suspicions to try them on. Staff responded by taking out the Magick Decoder rings.

How these unguided unmanifested would slip past Templar scrutiny is a problem because it deals with the fundamental nature of zalanthan magick. Is it something people are born with, or something that "finds" them at a random time? Personally I'm in favor of the latter. It makes magick more unpredictable and paranoia-inducing (provided magehood is something feared), and it sidesteps questions like "wait, how did this person manage to hide THIS in THAT place for so long?"

The thing is, while maybe YOU only did it on people who roused suspicion, not every does or did. "Hello, it is good to meet you Lord Templar." " .... Put on this ring before you talk to me."

Sometimes it was just like that, and then it changed to "Put on this gem". It because patently ridiculous.

Regardless of how magick is viewed in the world, this is just piss-poor play.

[BadSkeelz]

Realistically if you had a full proof means of detecting magic like that, you'd be forcing it on people at every opportunity. Make it a precondition for buying water at the temple. Life in Allanak sucks, is supposed to suck at some level. Dodging the  magicker-detecting squads should be part of the narrative, driving secret mages into the lawless parts of Allanak or out of it entirely.

[Riev]

Realistically if you had a full proof means of detecting magic like that, you'd be forcing it on people at every opportunity. Make it a precondition for buying water at the temple. Life in Allanak sucks, is supposed to suck at some level. Dodging the  magicker-detecting squads should be part of the narrative, driving secret mages into the lawless parts of Allanak or out of it entirely.

Its fool proof, not full proof.

And yes, 100% I don't blame you for doing it, but it was clearly not MEANT to be that way. Your vision of the game is not everyone else's vision of the game.

Besides, you'd think the magicker-detecting squads would be in Tuluk more than Allanak.

[BadSkeelz]

Tuluk already has them. Allanak just has a use for who they catch and collar beyond skilling up axes.

Mage life should be more difficult and dangerous than it already is. Templars and trained soldiers being an actual threat to sniffing you out in one small part of the world can be part of that. Being able to OOC hide your magic subguild while you skill up your mundane main sounds far more "poor play" than a templar forcing a gem on everyone. "Alright, got my shield use, parry, climb and ride capped out, time to turn the magick on and really come online."

Some randomness of timing and element would help forestall that behavior.

[Brokkr]

"Alright, got my shield use, parry, climb and ride capped out, time to turn the magick on and really come online."

When you have to choose whether you will be a magicker or not at chargen, it means going into the character you have no idea how successful, long lived, skilled or stat blessed that character will be. Allowing the choosing of magick subguilds later would mean that you have an idea of all of these things and how well suited the character would be for this or that magick.  It allows only choosing a magicker option when you've already become codedly powerful with your main guild skills and likely creates motivation for doing so. Player agency is fine, except when it creates undesirable outcomes.  These are, to me, undesirable outcomes.

The lore has long been that you are born a magicker, but that ability remains latent until unmanifested.  Over the last several years multiple quality of life changes were made to make being unmanifested not negatively impact the character.