Subguild None and Mages

[LindseyBalboa]

Proposing we allow people with subguild none to pick magick subguilds. There's no karma regen now, so there's not really any 'gain' they'd be getting by waiting.

And I actually think it might cut down on gicks if we allow people more choices - but at the worst, status quo as-is. I could see myself thinking I'd go gick at some point and falling in with a cool crew I didn't want to alienate by being a gick. Players that want characters with a chance of being sorcerer would be able to play and also not be a gick in the world - and more than likely die before ever doing magick stuff. Really, any subguild none is a mundane til they actually do take a magick guild, and there's a decent chance any character might perish before gickery.

Beyond that, it's already achievable by simply not manifesting, so there's no benefit at all for someone to wait to pick a magick guild. What is a benefit is that someone manifesting as a witch who has been your friend forever is a potentially fresher story in comparison to 'your friend you've known forever has been lying to you bc they're a maxed out witch.' Someone running into gicks in-game and having a bad experience and then manifesting as their element, that's a pretty rad story it'd help facilitate, all the while keeping a gick out of the game until then. Etc.


Idk. Seems only positives, and at the very worst, no negatives.

[Kestria]

First problem I see here, which is likely the reason staff said no on it in the first place.. is people will abuse it.
Someone in Allanak for example, could play with subtle cantrips because their character could just randomly pop into some elemental witch at any point, templar tries to gem them, but, low and behold they are subguild none, and thus, not a witch.
Two weeks later they take a witch subguild and ARE a witch, someone reports them to said templar, who goes.. well they are not because them gem didnt stick.

[Riev]

You're born a 'gick or you aren't born a 'gick. Whether you manifest at thirteen or thirty five, you were always a magicker.

Sure, you can choose a different mundane subguild later because you "took a job with House Kadius and you want to be a clothworker" and your subguild can now reflect that.

But if you were born a witch, its in your blood.

[LindseyBalboa]

First problem I see here, which is likely the reason staff said no on it in the first place.. is people will abuse it.
Someone in Allanak for example, could play with subtle cantrips because their character could just randomly pop into some elemental witch at any point, templar tries to gem them, but, low and behold they are subguild none, and thus, not a witch.
Two weeks later they take a witch subguild and ARE a witch, someone reports them to said templar, who goes.. well they are not because them gem didnt stick.

I mean... using emoted cantrips while not having any magical ability is just cheating no matter what subguild you pick now or later. I see what you're saying but I'm not a huge fan of making rules based on 'what a cheater might do.' I'm not honestly sure if a gem sticks before manifestation or not, but if not, there's no change here either way.

You're born a 'gick or you aren't born a 'gick. Whether you manifest at thirteen or thirty five, you were always a magicker.

Sure, you can choose a different mundane subguild later because you "took a job with House Kadius and you want to be a clothworker" and your subguild can now reflect that.

But if you were born a witch, its in your blood.

That's 100% correct.

I'm proposing a change to the OOC mechanics of this, putting more agency in the hands of players to make a choice about their character development. At worst case scenario, it maintains the status quo if every single subguild none (that plans on maybe becoming a gick) lives long enough to become a gick. At best... it seems like it might lower the amount of gicks in the game, as players choose not to have been a gick/manifest and instead take clothworker for Kadius, or die a mundane before every taking a subguild.

It would not change the in-game reality/theme of a PC always having been a magicker, unbeknownst to them. As per help files, whether or not someone 'embodies' their element is entirely up to the player. If a player wanted to use cantrips and emotes to show they might be a gick before manifestation, they'd need a gick subguild.

Does that make sense?

[dumbstruck]

First problem I see here, which is likely the reason staff said no on it in the first place.. is people will abuse it.
Someone in Allanak for example, could play with subtle cantrips because their character could just randomly pop into some elemental witch at any point, templar tries to gem them, but, low and behold they are subguild none, and thus, not a witch.
Two weeks later they take a witch subguild and ARE a witch, someone reports them to said templar, who goes.. well they are not because them gem didnt stick.

I mean... using emoted cantrips while not having any magical ability is just cheating no matter what subguild you pick now or later. I see what you're saying but I'm not a huge fan of making rules based on 'what a cheater might do.' I'm not honestly sure if a gem sticks before manifestation or not, but if not, there's no change here either way.

It really shouldn't. Knowing the shortcomings of how code works I'm almost certain that it does, but as far as world lore goes, if it does/did, it would literally not make any sense for Allanak not to try and make it a requirement for you to go get your kid tested with the gem when they're born so they don't "accidentally manifest and hurt someone one day".

Edit to add:

In fact, the items at a certain shop in the Quarter were being used once upon a time to test people who were suspected as unmanifested or hidden mages by a templar pc because it was forbidden to use the gem for that purpose (again, likely because of coding shortcomings), and it became so prevalent that the scripts on every item in the shop were removed to end this.

[Patuk]

I'm filing this under the same 'not broken' cabinet that the desert elf changes we might get are. No strong feelings either way.

[LindseyBalboa]

I'm filing this under the same 'not broken' cabinet that the desert elf changes we might get are. No strong feelings either way.

This is adding options and player agency to make decisions about their character growth, not taking anything away, but I get what you mean. I feel like another way of looking at this would be, "a second chance for would-be mages to reconsider and play a mundane like they have been playing." Which may do nothing. Or it may lower the amount of mages on-grid. Idk.

It really shouldn't. Knowing the shortcomings of how code works I'm almost certain that it does, but as far as world lore goes, if it does/did, it would literally not make any sense for Allanak not to try and make it a requirement for you to go get your kid tested with the gem when they're born so they don't "accidentally manifest and hurt someone one day".

If this is a reality in-game it should be changed regardless of this idea. Because... right. Why wouldn't babies be gem-tested at birth.

[Riev]

I'm filing this under the same 'not broken' cabinet that the desert elf changes we might get are. No strong feelings either way.

This is adding options and player agency to make decisions about their character growth, not taking anything away, but I get what you mean. I feel like another way of looking at this would be, "a second chance for would-be mages to reconsider and play a mundane like they have been playing." Which may do nothing. Or it may lower the amount of mages on-grid. Idk.

It really shouldn't. Knowing the shortcomings of how code works I'm almost certain that it does, but as far as world lore goes, if it does/did, it would literally not make any sense for Allanak not to try and make it a requirement for you to go get your kid tested with the gem when they're born so they don't "accidentally manifest and hurt someone one day".

If this is a reality in-game it should be changed regardless of this idea. Because... right. Why wouldn't babies be gem-tested at birth.

For "reasons", gemming a baby at birth does not work.

For other reasons... fuck you for suggesting PC Templars just go around forcing people to try on the gem. Seriously.

[DesertT]

For other reasons... fuck you for suggesting PC Templars just go around forcing people to try on the gem. Seriously.

I'm apping an Oprah Winfrey Templar right now!!

And you get a gem, and -you- get a gem, and YOU get a gem.

!!!EVERYBODY GETS A GEM!!!

[Inks]

I am against being able to go from none to magicker unless it is a "random magicker" option, any touched, any elemental magick sub you have karma for, at random. Would be more in keeping with manifesting rather than a gamey character planning thing. Would actually love to play that option.

[Armaddict]

I am against being able to go from none to magicker unless it is a "random magicker" option, any touched, any elemental magick sub you have karma for, at random. Would be more in keeping with manifesting rather than a gamey character planning thing. Would actually love to play that option.

Hey.  That'd be neat.  I'd go so far as to make it completely random across all subguilds, but that's because I think the 'OOOooooOOOO, I'm a MAGE!' would be both pleasant and unpleasant depending on your character goals; sometimes being a mage ain't a blessing in this world, even though it's what some people like to play.

That's extreme though.  I like random stuff.  Increases playthrough variety.  Makes everything less min-maxey.  I likee.

[Usiku]

It really shouldn't. Knowing the shortcomings of how code works I'm almost certain that it does.

Oh ye of little faith!

[dumbstruck]

I'm filing this under the same 'not broken' cabinet that the desert elf changes we might get are. No strong feelings either way.

This is adding options and player agency to make decisions about their character growth, not taking anything away, but I get what you mean. I feel like another way of looking at this would be, "a second chance for would-be mages to reconsider and play a mundane like they have been playing." Which may do nothing. Or it may lower the amount of mages on-grid. Idk.

It really shouldn't. Knowing the shortcomings of how code works I'm almost certain that it does, but as far as world lore goes, if it does/did, it would literally not make any sense for Allanak not to try and make it a requirement for you to go get your kid tested with the gem when they're born so they don't "accidentally manifest and hurt someone one day".

If this is a reality in-game it should be changed regardless of this idea. Because... right. Why wouldn't babies be gem-tested at birth.

For "reasons", gemming a baby at birth does not work.

For other reasons... fuck you for suggesting PC Templars just go around forcing people to try on the gem. Seriously.

I'm actually not doing that unless you know a lot of newborns who are 18+. I'm saying that the same suspension of disbelief that allows anyone to play a magicker that ever manifests vs has already manifested (despite the documentation having said for years that magickers typically manifest around adolescence and 18 is past adolescence by a couple YEARS) might be extended to people who subguild_none and eventually wound up with a magick subguild. Honestly, if your pc hasn't manifested yet, they SHOULD have subguild_none so they can't wander around casting magick and accidentally wind up affected by shit that affects magickers (like the gem) when they "aren't actively magickers yet". It's not like it requires a request to add your subguild, it's literally instant. So if your pc wants to spontaneously manifest (and thus be able to actually cast), they should then add the subguild, if things worked logically.

It really shouldn't. Knowing the shortcomings of how code works I'm almost certain that it does.

Oh ye of little faith!

It's really cool if this has been changed, because that means that it doesn't require Templar players to listen to what they're told, they can try in vain and have it have... the same effect as it would on someone of subguild_none, right? 

I am against being able to go from none to magicker unless it is a "random magicker" option, any touched, any elemental magick sub you have karma for, at random. Would be more in keeping with manifesting rather than a gamey character planning thing. Would actually love to play that option.

Hey.  That'd be neat.  I'd go so far as to make it completely random across all subguilds, but that's because I think the 'OOOooooOOOO, I'm a MAGE!' would be both pleasant and unpleasant depending on your character goals; sometimes being a mage ain't a blessing in this world, even though it's what some people like to play.

That's extreme though.  I like random stuff.  Increases playthrough variety.  Makes everything less min-maxey.  I likee.

I like this and would like this and have been in favor of it for years.

[Trevalyan]

That's extreme though.  I like random stuff.  Increases playthrough variety.  Makes everything less min-maxey.  I likee.

Without giving an opinion on the magick system, which I am not even qualified to play in right now, I'm kind of stunned how my very well-rounded character is just about perfect for their current roleplaying options.

And yet, it's enormously hard to have both City AND Desert functionality, all while being able to meaningfully contribute to the in-game economy. Try to add Light or Heavy Combat on top of that, and it appears quite impossible... without magick.

[SpyGuy]

I am against being able to go from none to magicker unless it is a "random magicker" option, any touched, any elemental magick sub you have karma for, at random. Would be more in keeping with manifesting rather than a gamey character planning thing. Would actually love to play that option.

Oh damn.  I love randomness so much I'd totally do this for shits and giggles.  I'd want the option to ask staff to set it at a certain element to respond to long term IC circumstances.  Not 'I'm about to die of thirst, I'm a Viv now' and more 'Hey staff, my character just survived a fireball on an RPT.  I want to roleplay it as having awoken a Krathi subclass for me.  Can you switch none to a random Krathi I can play?'

I'm not seeing too many downsides to this even if not random.  I do think many players may choose to not play a magicker if they get in game, start skilling up and find they're enjoying the role without super powers. 

[Usiku]

I LOVE the idea of random magick classes popping up on players. It's an idea I have not-so-seriously floated in the past but it's never got much traction.. Perhaps it makes more sense now with the introduction of subguild: none.

I guess the only issues I see with it are:

- People might just sit there with subguild none indefinitely, forever, hoping they are going to 'pop' a magick subguild and they never do.
- It's important that there should still be a chance of them not being a magicker.. but you can't just drop a random mundane subguild on someone either, since those should be driven player desire.
- It would require a lot of coding to make it an automated, genuinely random thing.
- If it wasn't automated and genuinely random then when there was player disappointment, staff would ultimately get complaints about it.

Alas, perhaps it's just a pipe dream.

[Fragmented]

I LOVE the idea of random magick classes popping up on players. It's an idea I have not-so-seriously floated in the past but it's never got much traction.. Perhaps it makes more sense now with the introduction of subguild: none.

I guess the only issues I see with it are:

- People might just sit there with subguild none indefinitely, forever, hoping they are going to 'pop' a magick subguild and they never do.
- It's important that there should still be a chance of them not being a magicker.. but you can't just drop a random mundane subguild on someone either, since those should be driven player desire.
- It would require a lot of coding to make it an automated, genuinely random thing.
- If it wasn't automated and genuinely random then when there was player disappointment, staff would ultimately get complaints about it.

Alas, perhaps it's just a pipe dream.

I think the suggestion, rather than just sitting as subguild none and hoping was to allow someone to pick subguild "None" and then later at a time of their choice pick subguild "rando magicker" and have randomness to what they are assigned. Could be a viv touched.. could be a nilazi (if they have the karma for it). No control, other than deciding when you pop and "manifest". It sounds cool to me - I'd play one. Not sure how automated that would need to be, other than a diceroll and karma check to see just what sort of magicker the person is stuck with.

[Usiku]

Ah yeah, that makes sense. Not sure on code feasibility, but I like the idea personally. It's something I would want to play anyway! 

[LindseyBalboa]

For "reasons", gemming a baby at birth does not work.

For other reasons... fuck you for suggesting PC Templars just go around forcing people to try on the gem. Seriously.

hey bud gotta be honest, in this conversation about more player agency and how the unmanifested shouldn't be able to be gemmed i'm not sure where you saw people advocating for less agency and the manifested to be able to be gemmed, including and up to being pro- templars taking away player agency by trying to gem the unmanifested.

I am against being able to go from none to magicker unless it is a "random magicker" option, any touched, any elemental magick sub you have karma for, at random. Would be more in keeping with manifesting rather than a gamey character planning thing. Would actually love to play that option.

i think this is a great separate idea that i'd be down with and love to play. i've always liked the idea of being able to manifest at random, not necessarily knowing what your element is, etc. i'd love this as an option, as well, although less so with touched as they give actual mundane skills, lack spells, and feel more 'you're part of your element' to me. it'd be like randomly getting swordsman as a subguild when you were only supposed to be looking through crafting subguilds.

[BadSkeelz]

I showed some player agency on my first character (an AoD soldier) by buying a sack full of Magick Decoder rings in the Gemmed quarter and then forcing anyone who roused suspicions to try them on. Staff responded by taking out the Magick Decoder rings.

How these unguided unmanifested would slip past Templar scrutiny is a problem because it deals with the fundamental nature of zalanthan magick. Is it something people are born with, or something that "finds" them at a random time? Personally I'm in favor of the latter. It makes magick more unpredictable and paranoia-inducing (provided magehood is something feared), and it sidesteps questions like "wait, how did this person manage to hide THIS in THAT place for so long?"

[Riev]

I showed some player agency on my first character (an AoD soldier) by buying a sack full of Magick Decoder rings in the Gemmed quarter and then forcing anyone who roused suspicions to try them on. Staff responded by taking out the Magick Decoder rings.

How these unguided unmanifested would slip past Templar scrutiny is a problem because it deals with the fundamental nature of zalanthan magick. Is it something people are born with, or something that "finds" them at a random time? Personally I'm in favor of the latter. It makes magick more unpredictable and paranoia-inducing (provided magehood is something feared), and it sidesteps questions like "wait, how did this person manage to hide THIS in THAT place for so long?"

The thing is, while maybe YOU only did it on people who roused suspicion, not every does or did. "Hello, it is good to meet you Lord Templar." " .... Put on this ring before you talk to me."

Sometimes it was just like that, and then it changed to "Put on this gem". It because patently ridiculous.

Regardless of how magick is viewed in the world, this is just piss-poor play.

[BadSkeelz]

Realistically if you had a full proof means of detecting magic like that, you'd be forcing it on people at every opportunity. Make it a precondition for buying water at the temple. Life in Allanak sucks, is supposed to suck at some level. Dodging the  magicker-detecting squads should be part of the narrative, driving secret mages into the lawless parts of Allanak or out of it entirely.

[Riev]

Realistically if you had a full proof means of detecting magic like that, you'd be forcing it on people at every opportunity. Make it a precondition for buying water at the temple. Life in Allanak sucks, is supposed to suck at some level. Dodging the  magicker-detecting squads should be part of the narrative, driving secret mages into the lawless parts of Allanak or out of it entirely.

Its fool proof, not full proof.

And yes, 100% I don't blame you for doing it, but it was clearly not MEANT to be that way. Your vision of the game is not everyone else's vision of the game.

Besides, you'd think the magicker-detecting squads would be in Tuluk more than Allanak.

[BadSkeelz]

Tuluk already has them. Allanak just has a use for who they catch and collar beyond skilling up axes.

Mage life should be more difficult and dangerous than it already is. Templars and trained soldiers being an actual threat to sniffing you out in one small part of the world can be part of that. Being able to OOC hide your magic subguild while you skill up your mundane main sounds far more "poor play" than a templar forcing a gem on everyone. "Alright, got my shield use, parry, climb and ride capped out, time to turn the magick on and really come online."

Some randomness of timing and element would help forestall that behavior.

[Brokkr]

"Alright, got my shield use, parry, climb and ride capped out, time to turn the magick on and really come online."

When you have to choose whether you will be a magicker or not at chargen, it means going into the character you have no idea how successful, long lived, skilled or stat blessed that character will be. Allowing the choosing of magick subguilds later would mean that you have an idea of all of these things and how well suited the character would be for this or that magick.  It allows only choosing a magicker option when you've already become codedly powerful with your main guild skills and likely creates motivation for doing so. Player agency is fine, except when it creates undesirable outcomes.  These are, to me, undesirable outcomes.

The lore has long been that you are born a magicker, but that ability remains latent until unmanifested.  Over the last several years multiple quality of life changes were made to make being unmanifested not negatively impact the character.

[BadSkeelz]

If PCs skilling up their mundane skills before manifesting is an undesirable outcome, then maybe some of those "quality of life" changes need a rollback. Because that's what we're seeing now.

[Brokkr]

That is not what was said.

Skilling up those skills before having to make the choice whether you are going to be a magicker or not.

As it is now, folks make the choice before they know the outcome.

[Halaster]

I am against being able to go from none to magicker unless it is a "random magicker" option, any touched, any elemental magick sub you have karma for, at random. Would be more in keeping with manifesting rather than a gamey character planning thing. Would actually love to play that option.

Hey.  That'd be neat.  I'd go so far as to make it completely random across all subguilds, but that's because I think the 'OOOooooOOOO, I'm a MAGE!' would be both pleasant and unpleasant depending on your character goals; sometimes being a mage ain't a blessing in this world, even though it's what some people like to play.

That's extreme though.  I like random stuff.  Increases playthrough variety.  Makes everything less min-maxey.  I likee.

What if it was like:  change subguild magick <karma level>
So you could do change subguild magick 2 and it would pick any karma-2 magick subguild.  Or change subguild magick 1 and it picks a random _touched one.  Or change subguild magick any and it just picks from any regardless of karma level.


EDIT:  Me theorizing about how this could/would work is not any indication it'll happen.  Just a bunch of "what-if"s with players for now.

[zealus]

I am against being able to go from none to magicker unless it is a "random magicker" option, any touched, any elemental magick sub you have karma for, at random. Would be more in keeping with manifesting rather than a gamey character planning thing. Would actually love to play that option.

Hey.  That'd be neat.  I'd go so far as to make it completely random across all subguilds, but that's because I think the 'OOOooooOOOO, I'm a MAGE!' would be both pleasant and unpleasant depending on your character goals; sometimes being a mage ain't a blessing in this world, even though it's what some people like to play.

That's extreme though.  I like random stuff.  Increases playthrough variety.  Makes everything less min-maxey.  I likee.

What if it was like:  change subguild magick <karma level>
So you could do change subguild magick 2 and it would pick any karma-2 magick subguild.  Or change subguild magick 1 and it picks a random _touched one.  Or change subguild magick any and it just picks from any regardless of karma level.


EDIT:  Me theorizing about how this could/would work is not any indication it'll happen.  Just a bunch of "what-if"s with players for now.

I would adore this. A lot.

[LindseyBalboa]

When you have to choose whether you will be a magicker or not at chargen, it means going into the character you have no idea how successful, long lived, skilled or stat blessed that character will be. Allowing the choosing of magick subguilds later would mean that you have an idea of all of these things and how well suited the character would be for this or that magick.  It allows only choosing a magicker option when you've already become codedly powerful with your main guild skills and likely creates motivation for doing so. Player agency is fine, except when it creates undesirable outcomes.  These are, to me, undesirable outcomes.

The lore has long been that you are born a magicker, but that ability remains latent until unmanifested.  Over the last several years multiple quality of life changes were made to make being unmanifested not negatively impact the character.

It does allow that. And that is actually currently able to be done by just not casting spells with a magicker subguild. The exact same thing is able to be done now by players that would consider what you're talking about. They can just suicide, die, make a new character, all without putting a RL month or more into grinding a character up to 5d+ played.

However, this would also allow players to consider STAYING a mundane, at a point in which they very likely could be in a clan that doesn't like gicks, have friends that don't like gicks, etc.

I understand how the negative outcomes you described could come into play. However, the more and more I think about this, the more and more I think it's actually a positive in comparison to the system as we have it now.

First of all, for someone to get those mundane skills up high they have to play for a few RL months before suddenly becoming a witch: that means that they have been actively playing Armageddon and assumedly roleplaying and being part of the world. Even if that means they have high  mundane skills when they become a mage, in this scenario what they didn't do is just suicide or die off and avoid RP until they got 'the right stats.' Furthermore, it's a really interesting and less-common story to have a friend that is just now becoming a witch after you've known them for a year as opposed to the norm, which is finding out your buddy has been a witch the whole year you've known them, becoming more and more powerful so that by the time you find out they're already super powerful.

I mean, if nothing else, the first mage is a lot easier to kill and then roleplay feeling bad about. Talk about managing mage population. All they have are weapon skills, and other mundanes have those a-plenty.

What if it was like:  change subguild magick <karma level>
So you could do change subguild magick 2 and it would pick any karma-2 magick subguild.  Or change subguild magick 1 and it picks a random _touched one.  Or change subguild magick any and it just picks from any regardless of karma level.
EDIT:  Me theorizing about how this could/would work is not any indication it'll happen.  Just a bunch of "what-if"s with players for now.

Well, Halaster, since you promised this would happen...

Really though I am 100% on board with the idea of letting people manifest in some spectacular way, and letting it be random, and introducing more 'wild' and less 'min-max' to the mage system. I like this idea as proposed for subguild_none, as it 'rewards' taking agency away and being more thematic with the option to wait and see if you find mundane friends first before going ahead with magery.

[LindseyBalboa]

(i don't know why every post i make it quotes itself)

[DesertT]

Instead of completely random, what if a Staff member who approves the app assigns the magick subguild?

This way, they can see what the game already has enough of (or not enough of) and make an appropriate choice for a semblance of balance.

As far as you, the player knows, it would be a surprise.

[Armaddict]

EDIT:  Me theorizing about how this could/would work is not any indication it'll happen.  Just a bunch of "what-if"s with players for now.

I loves what-ifs and they are the majority of my feedback.  Harebrained ideas, thrown out there just to do something than a bipolar back and forth.  At least more recently.

I love these kind of ideas.

[SpyGuy]

"Alright, got my shield use, parry, climb and ride capped out, time to turn the magick on and really come online."

When you have to choose whether you will be a magicker or not at chargen, it means going into the character you have no idea how successful, long lived, skilled or stat blessed that character will be. Allowing the choosing of magick subguilds later would mean that you have an idea of all of these things and how well suited the character would be for this or that magick.  It allows only choosing a magicker option when you've already become codedly powerful with your main guild skills and likely creates motivation for doing so. Player agency is fine, except when it creates undesirable outcomes.  These are, to me, undesirable outcomes.

The lore has long been that you are born a magicker, but that ability remains latent until unmanifested.  Over the last several years multiple quality of life changes were made to make being unmanifested not negatively impact the character.

I think the lore concerns are strong here but I consider it this way.  A subguild none that was originally planning on going mage but instead chooses a mundane sub is just someone born with the potential for magick but never manifested.  Nothing says they all need to manifest.

I disagree with you about how this would play out. There's nothing stopping someone right now from rolling up a bunch of mages and killing off the ones with bad stats until they get a keeper.  The vast majority of karma players have been playing this game for years and so have some idea how to keep a character alive and train them up, gone are the days when most players die super early. Most combat mages I know of spend a year+ in the Garrison/Byn before manifesting anyways.  One of the things that makes playing in those clans a drain is your buddies going gick.

With a subguild none option some of those players would end up picking mundanes.  They'll have developed stories or risen to leadership ranks they like and not want to give that up.  I can think of 3 PCs: an unmanifested Garrison Captain, a Byn Sergeant and a PClan leader who have all told me they would have chosen not to manifest or picked a mundane sub instead if given the choice.  The Garrison Captain was even in discussions with staff to change their subguild because, being Captain, they saw how many mages were in the Luir's play area and weren't comfortable adding another.

If someone were to abuse this feature after a warning then staff have a wonderful tool available to them.  Take away some karma. Karma is meant to measure trust in the player right?  So why in your opinion are these players not to be trusted to choose their karma class after character creation?

[ShaiHulud]

Delaying subguild to figure out how you want to develop a character possibly with role play. Great. But I agree with staff decision on this, regardless if magickers are known at birth, or can be detected at birth, it is not a decision you get to make after birth. Becoming a dung crafter or clay crafter is, not I'm a krathi or vivaduan.

[Trevalyan]

What if it was like:  change subguild magick <karma level>
So you could do change subguild magick 2 and it would pick any karma-2 magick subguild.  Or change subguild magick 1 and it picks a random _touched one.  Or change subguild magick any and it just picks from any regardless of karma level.


EDIT:  Me theorizing about how this could/would work is not any indication it'll happen.  Just a bunch of "what-if"s with players for now.

I don't know if I have enough experience to be counted, but I think this is a fantastic idea. It'd be nice if the staff could do a personal RPT for the manifestation, but it's by no means necessary.

[Halaster]

I don't know if I have enough experience to be counted, but I think this is a fantastic idea. It'd be nice if the staff could do a personal RPT for the manifestation, but it's by no means necessary.

Not in regards to this idea, but generally speaking staff can and do facilitate 'personal RPTs' for a manifestation if the player asks.  It's not super common, but every unmanifested mage is invited to put in a request or something and say "Hey, I want my character to manifest their magick in some unpredictable way", and staff love to do this.  You can set a date/time for it to happen, you can ask for 'anytime, surprise me!', or just ask for help in a specific way.

[Krath]

Halaster, that change subguild magick 2 would be fucking epic.

[Riev]

Halaster, that change subguild magick 2 would be fucking epic.

Especially with the secret "change subguild magick3" occasionally letting you become a sorceror.

[Patuk]

I'm gonna be the guy:

Can we not even more magickal options? Again?

A third of the MUD is there already; let's not aim for every other PC for realsies. Please.

[Kiyetal]

Despite the more realistic skillset for a living and breathing character I personally haven't enjoyed seeing mages in the world setting since the subguild changes happened. It feels overwhelmingly forced that everything not Tuluk has become a mage haven simply because most pc's can't be openly hostile or against mages without simply losing. Even in Allanak.

I do not like the current state of mages and it makes playing a mundane or lacking karma to play non-mundane demoralizing. More options for gicks in chargen? I'd rather not.

[Trevalyan]

It feels overwhelmingly forced that everything not Tuluk has become a mage haven simply because most pc's can't be openly hostile or against mages without simply losing. Even in Allanak.

I've heard this, and I believe it, but ten mages are technically a Mage's Guild. Twenty practically the next government. If Nak is THAT dominated by magic, secret or not, why keep that secret?

"They can't kill all of us" might be the famous last words, but if this many people don't like living in the Magical Closet, why not choose being out?

[LindseyBalboa]

Can we not even more magickal options? Again?

I do not like the current state of mages and it makes playing a mundane or lacking karma to play non-mundane demoralizing. More options for gicks in chargen? I'd rather not.

but what about more options for people to consider being mundane? because that's the suggestion.

the difference being proposed is:

chargen->picks viv subguild->does not manifest->does mundane things and makes mundane friends->manifests eventually->practices in secret and is exposed as a full witch
vs
chargen->is thinking they'll probably manifest viv but picks subguild none->does not manifest->does mundane things and makes mundane friends->PLAYER decides not to manifest and to stay mundane, picks mundane subguild->this has been a mundane PC the entire time

right now there is no option for someone that picked a mage subguild to continue staying mundane, without giving up the subguild they picked.

hypothesis is: people will pick mundane subguilds if they have the chance after making a mundane life for themselves.

people that want to min-max already suicide and get the stats they want before investing time in RP. the argument that 'players would spend RL time (3 RL months at least) building up their mundane skills and then seeing if stats work for a mage' doesn't really stand up given how easy it is to do that now with much less time involved. it's literally 0 hours of investment to see what stats are.

the worst thing that comes out of this (ASSUMEDLY quick) change is there is no actual change in mage/mundane population. however, even if that is the case, the potential for mundanes to manifest as mages much later means that their friends will have EQUAL footing against them when they manifest.

which also means it's easier to get the other people in your friend group together and dispose of the new mage.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

I know we've probably had a 'who's playing what' kind of chart. What's the latest? I am curious to know the real numbers on how many mages vs. mundanes are IG right now.

[Usiku]

It's hard to get accurate numbers.. but I think it's about 30%?

[JohnMichaelHenry]

It's hard to get accurate numbers.. but I think it's about 30%?

If that is close, I don't think 3 out of 10 is too many magick PC's, imho. Especially since NPC's make up most of the population.

[DesertT]

It's hard to get accurate numbers.. but I think it's about 30%?

If that is close, I don't think 3 out of 10 is too many magick PC's, imho. Especially since NPC's make up most of the population.

I'd be curious how many of the rest are mundane sponsored roles.

[Trevalyan]

It's hard to get accurate numbers.. but I think it's about 30%?

If that is close, I don't think 3 out of 10 is too many magick PC's, imho. Especially since NPC's make up most of the population.

I'd be curious how many of the rest are mundane sponsored roles.

So people get role boosts for a mundane role, where they just happen to have magical powers as well?