Restrictions to Guild/Subguild Based on Race

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Backstab in the desert though? I can't see it. Maybe it's the way I'm envisioning backstab. I know it's really just a 'hit critical area' thing, but you still need to sneak up right next to someone in order to do it. We have one square per league (IG def) which means you are in a wide open space!

Perhaps a different skill like 'Ambush', where you would have to be sitting in wait for someone to come into that area and jump them. I can see that in the desert or the forests.

Change my mind.

Same skill, different name, its just nomenclature at that point. If they called the skill "MonkeyPaw" and it did the same thing, it shouldn't matter.

Desert Elves can, and do, sneak up right next to you with their amazing stealth. Whether they are swimming in the sand, dressed properly, or just know the lay of the dunes to know how to run up on your ass, they can and do.

Your issue, it seems, is more with the fact that Desert Elves can sneak up next to you with stealth and not what they do once they're there.

The difference would be, sneaking up to someone vs. them walking into a place where you are waiting. But really, I don't have a kank in this race. I suck at stealthy pc's.

[BadSkeelz]

We're considering this because we feel it's lore and game appropriate.  Some of you keep saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it".  We think it's broken.  We think desert elves should not have city stealth abilities, and that it should have been there long ago.  We feel we are correcting an error.  And honestly, that's it, that's the reason.  There isn't really much else to it.  That's the vision we have for desert elves, and we are working to get the reality more in line with it.

Thank you for shedding some light on Staff's reasoning. Your reasoning and vision is bad, but now we can better understand how it's bad.

What are some actual examples of the current system appearing broken that you feel warrant this change? What is the actual problem?




It's probably just coincidental, but I can't help but feel there's been a downwards trend of player numbers the more Staff (principally Halaster and Brokkr) try to force a separation between City and Wilderness roles. Scan getting split between City and Wilderness; Skinning getting hugely curtailed in favor of "player interaciton" (while we were shedding players year over year); and now  this notion that City Elves and Desert Elves need to be completely separate in terms of playability.

All of these changes just make life more onerous for players who want to move in and out of the cities and interact with different populations. It encourages the player population to fragment and compartmentalize, which makes the game feel even less populated than it is. That in turn drives disengagement, which lessens the players, and the cycle begins to repeat itself.

[Armaddict]

*snip*

See, I had the opposite impression.  For me, the game started losing players when you'd log in and everyone was off doing whatever they wanted.  No one had to wait for you for anything, they could just...do it themselves.  Wanted to go over there?  No vulnerability there, I got that shit covered.  I just disappear from the player pool while I get done what I want done.

Everyone said they hated waiting around for people.  People started adjusting and going to new roles and making sure their character creation was based on 0 downtime.  Turned out that downtime where was most of the things actually happened.  Waiting in a bar for people?  That's when your enemies found you.  Needed something done over there?  You started asking randos who they knew who could get that done.  All of the 'get things done'/action oriented players disappeared from the social pool, leaving a bunch of people who wanted to get things done but had no one to cooperate with.  Then apartments got super common...and those who were still 'waiting for other people' ended up waiting endlessly instead of finding fruition, so they either transitioned so that they, too, could play without depending on other people, or left.

The downward trend of players was there, with brief resurgences based on actual things being around for 'shit to do' for some consistent amount of time, but I think it's reading in reverse; the less dependent on people you are, the less downtime you have, and the less available you are, and the less interested in seeking people for meaningful things you are.

Note that this is not meant as a correction to your post; I just find it interesting how far spread those two perceptions can be on describing the same scenario.  Enlarging the sphere of influence/playability made people less available, where smaller, more defined spheres of comfort/influence made you have to seek people out to get into other spheres.

[BadSkeelz]

It's a fair point, and just makes it more likely I'm seeing a coincidence.

Still... might be that the numbers shed are those of us who prefer the mundane sphere. Magickers are definitely the most self-sufficient types out there, and as they've been made more and more prominent codedly there's less and less reasons to bother playing mundanes. These proposed changes aren't doing anything to help Desert Elves in that regard.

[BadSkeelz]

Hell, if this is really the path we want to go on, I propose splitting humans between Urbans Settled and Tribals and start restricting what class you get based on where they begin too.

Dwarves can keep everything because they're meta.

eta: a better term

[wizturbo]

Thank you for shedding some light on Staff's reasoning. Your reasoning and vision is bad, but now we can better understand how it's bad.

I disagree with you on this.  I think the reasoning is sound.  I can see why there'd be restrictions on a race that's meant to be top dog in the desert and has all kinds of coded bonuses as a result having some trade offs inside the city unless you special app for it.  I also think the reasoning that Desert Elves being a popular race that new players who just got 1 karma play often play explains why they want to put these guard rails in place.

Separately, and far more importantly, I really wish you'd make an effort to share your opinions in a kinder manner.  After I read the "reasoning and vision is bad" part of your comment I was annoyed and became reluctant to read further because you were being rude to someone who was being open and transparent about their thinking.  I like transparency.  I like it when Halaster and Brokkr discuss things with the players instead of do it all behind closed doors...  Isn't this what you've been asking for?  Try and encourage it?  You started the post the right way, but then you had to take away your 'Thank you' immediately by saying something nasty?

[BadSkeelz]

I'm only responding in the same manner I've received from them. At least I'm not lying (which is what saying "Your opinion is wrong" would be, since that's my own subjective opinion).

[BadSkeelz]

*snip*

I'm not going to edit the original because I think editing is ultimately harmful for discourse, but I will rephrase it.

"Thank you for sharing your opinion. I disagree with and find your opinion unconvincing, and would like to see more reasoning than what you've given. What are some actual examples of the current system appearing broken that you feel warrant this change? What is the actual problem?"

[wizturbo]

Thanks BadSkeelz.  That was cool of you.

Also I totally agree if people have been nasty to you, it makes you want to do the same in return.  Trying to stop the cycle is all.

[Patuk]

We're considering this because we feel it's lore and game appropriate.  Some of you keep saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it".  We think it's broken.  We think desert elves should not have city stealth abilities, and that it should have been there long ago.  We feel we are correcting an error.  And honestly, that's it, that's the reason.  There isn't really much else to it.  That's the vision we have for desert elves, and we are working to get the reality more in line with it.

That makes sense on some level. Are you going to be rewriting the documentation of ~half the tribes that talk about irregular city presence?

I received a request on this from someone (that lists nearly every tribe as having a role in the documenation) and so far as I have gone through, it seems to be a combination of different interpretations of what was said (e.g. one role called them a "desert assassin" but the context around it seems to be in a generic sense of assassin as someone that does targeted kills, not using trope assassin skills and no where mentioned that it is in cities) and likely seeing folks do stuff with their characters and thinking that is part of the documentation, rather than contra-documentation.  And some I can't seem to find where they have the idea that the documentation says something.  So, work in progress.

Right. I can see that, I suppose

[Halaster]

When I go to read someone's post and they start with "your idea is bad" or "your vision is bad", know what I do?  I don't read the rest.  I have no interest in even hearing the rest of their opinion because they're just going to be an asshole.  Don't need 'em, don't want 'em.

If they say "I disagree with that and here's why", and show an ounce of respect, then I will.

[Riev]

When I go to read someone's post and they start with "your idea is bad" or "your vision is bad", know what I do?  I don't read the rest.  I have no interest in even hearing the rest of their opinion because they're just going to be an asshole.  Don't need 'em, don't want 'em.

If they say "I disagree with that and here's why", and show an ounce of respect, then I will.

Please post this in staff announcements so that players can reference how to properly address concerns with staff. You've got ~180 people from different backgrounds and with different communication styles. If you know a style works for you, please let us know rather than just disregard player opinion based on their communication style.

[Krath]

When I go to read someone's post and they start with "your idea is bad" or "your vision is bad", know what I do?  I don't read the rest.  I have no interest in even hearing the rest of their opinion because they're just going to be an asshole.  Don't need 'em, don't want 'em.

If they say "I disagree with that and here's why", and show an ounce of respect, then I will.

Please post this in staff announcements so that players can reference how to properly address concerns with staff. You've got ~180 people from different backgrounds and with different communication styles. If you know a style works for you, please let us know rather than just disregard player opinion based on their communication style.

As much as I dislike agreeing with Brokkr, I dislike agreeing with Riev more..But I agree with Riev

[Brokkr]

What is the actual problem?

The code doesn't always match up well with the game lore, for various reasons. As the game progresses through time and folks have the time, ability and inclination, bits and pieces of code are implemented to reflect the lore. I don't think of this as a problem, just a natural evolution of trying to make things a bit tighter and have a bit more consistency. Although I guess it could be argued that the lack of consistency is the problem (i.e. why are guilds restricted by race in but subguilds are not? That is not consistent).

[Riev]

What is the actual problem?

The code doesn't always match up well with the game lore, for various reasons. As the game progresses through time and folks have the time, ability and inclination, bits and pieces of code are implemented to reflect the lore. I don't think of this as a problem, just a natural evolution of trying to make things a bit tighter and have a bit more consistency. Although I guess it could be argued that the lack of consistency is the problem (i.e. why are guilds restricted by race in but subguilds are not? That is not consistent).

Correct me if I'm misinterpreting:

"Desert elves were always restricted from picking Assassin, and City Elves were always restricted from picking Ranger, for {reasons}. As we shifted away from Guilds and started making more subclasses with options, we inadvertently allowed Delves and Celves access to the skills we never meant for them to have, at skill caps we didn't want them to achieve. This isn't about lore, this is how it was meant to be, and we unfortunately have allowed this to progress over time. We are correcting that oversight."

As much as I dislike agreeing with Brokkr, I dislike agreeing with Riev more..But I agree with Riev

u wanna fite? Give me 3 months and access to .... uh. Well. Your PC for training purposes. THEN THE PERAINE COMES.

[BadSkeelz]

 (Where'd this smiley come from)

What is the actual problem?

The code doesn't always match up well with the game lore, for various reasons. As the game progresses through time and folks have the time, ability and inclination, bits and pieces of code are implemented to reflect the lore. I don't think of this as a problem, just a natural evolution of trying to make things a bit tighter and have a bit more consistency. Although I guess it could be argued that the lack of consistency is the problem (i.e. why are guilds restricted by race in but subguilds are not? That is not consistent).

Okay, then what is the inconsistency being addressed by these changes?

Are the lines between City and Desert elves too blurred? Why do those lines exist for elves but not any other race? Are human tribes going to face similar restrictions on their skills? Should they?

[Halaster]

When I go to read someone's post and they start with "your idea is bad" or "your vision is bad", know what I do?  I don't read the rest.  I have no interest in even hearing the rest of their opinion because they're just going to be an asshole.  Don't need 'em, don't want 'em.

If they say "I disagree with that and here's why", and show an ounce of respect, then I will.

Please post this in staff announcements so that players can reference how to properly address concerns with staff. You've got ~180 people from different backgrounds and with different communication styles. If you know a style works for you, please let us know rather than just disregard player opinion based on their communication style.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,59147.0.html

1. Show respect and kindness above all. This includes offensive actions and comments directed at someone's gender, sexual orientation, appearance, race, religion, language, etc. We respect healthy debate, but will not tolerate argumentative discourse. Discuss the idea, not each other.

5. Do not bash other MUDs, communities or other users.

--------------

That's what I'm basing it off, so it's already announced.  "Your idea is dumb" or "your vision is bad" etc. are not a measure of healthy debate.  "I don't like that idea and here's why", or "I don't agree with that and here's why" are measures of healthy debate.

If you want someone to listen to you, don't attack them.  Phrases like the above are often attacks against a person, and when a person feels attacked they're going to naturally become defensive.  The way to convince someone of your argument is to show respect and understanding, while maintaining or presenting your ideas or disagreements.  When the disagreement is rephrased to ""Thank you for sharing your opinion. I disagree with and find your opinion unconvincing, and would like to see more reasoning than what you've given. What are some actual examples of the current system appearing broken that you feel warrant this change? What is the actual problem?"" then it becomes a healthy debate and people are more inclined to engage with the person.

[Halaster]

(Where'd this smiley come from)

What is the actual problem?

The code doesn't always match up well with the game lore, for various reasons. As the game progresses through time and folks have the time, ability and inclination, bits and pieces of code are implemented to reflect the lore. I don't think of this as a problem, just a natural evolution of trying to make things a bit tighter and have a bit more consistency. Although I guess it could be argued that the lack of consistency is the problem (i.e. why are guilds restricted by race in but subguilds are not? That is not consistent).

Okay, then what is the inconsistency being addressed by these changes?

Are the lines between City and Desert elves too blurred? Why do those lines exist for elves but not any other race? Are human tribes going to face similar restrictions on their skills? Should they?

Elves were split into two races back in the 90's sometime, probably mid/late?  The point was to differentiate between them to point out their differences.  Their culture and upbringing made them very different people despite being the same race.  It was some years later that city and wilderness skills (stealth, hunt, etc) were separated out with the idea that they're different skills.  Similar in function and outcome, but requiring different abilities based on the environments.  The point is that we are were we are today because of an evolution of the game over a long time. 

The original two concepts (splitting elves up and splitting stealth skills up) was to highlight the differences.  It is our opinion that desert elves never should have had those city-based skills as a standard issue thing.  We could choose to ignore it and take the stance of "well, it's too late now, the cat's out of the bag", or we could choose to try to correct what we see is the error.  I'm not a fan of just letting things go that don't fit our theme and our vision.   I would rather correct the problem if I'm aware of it, even if it is many years later, than not at all.

So that is the inconsistency being addressed by this proposal.  That desert elves should not have city-based skills.  Riev's statement asking for clarification generally sums it up appropriately:

"Desert elves were always restricted from picking Assassin, and City Elves were always restricted from picking Ranger, for {reasons}. As we shifted away from Guilds and started making more subclasses with options, we inadvertently allowed Delves and Celves access to the skills we never meant for them to have, at skill caps we didn't want them to achieve. This isn't about lore, this is how it was meant to be, and we unfortunately have allowed this to progress over time. We are correcting that oversight."

All this said, I'm kind of thinking now that we won't roll this out (if we ever do, I keep using the phrase proposal intentionally) with the subguild stuff, since it's contentious and we want to make sure we do it right.


EDIT: was reminded scan isn't divided into city/wilderness, so removed it as an example

[Halaster]

I wanted to add after a convo with Brokkr and Usiku, that we understand our current stealth system and our current city/wilderness system and our current celf/delf system aren't necessarily ideal.  Overhauling some or all of them are much, much larger projects.  We'd like to do that sometime, but tweaking the existing systems to better match our intentions is a quicker, easier fix.

I'd love to see elf as one race, but subguilds determine abilities like desert run and stuff.
I'd love to see city/wilderness stealth be more of a gradient than a one or the other.
I'd love to see our entire stealth system overhauled somehow.
I'd love to see custom subguilds.

Until we can implement those larger features, we gotta make do with what we got!

[BadSkeelz]

Off topic but did Scan get changed again? Per its documentation it *is* divided between City and wilderness. Though I recall that happening at maybe a later date than others.

Note that as with skill hide and skill sneak, there are city and wilderness versions of this skill, and it will obviously operate better in the appropriate environment.

[Riev]

I remember when Slipknife came out and every desert elf player I knew was like "OMG I CAN BACKSTAB IN THE WILDERNESS NOW?"

Is it about having the skills -at all-. or is it the level to which they get them?
Could a desert elf still critically strike, or hide in the city but at a disadvantage? Would it even be worth having city_hide at high Jman to show a lack of understanding of urban stealth?


Also as a note, yes there are a ton of Desert Elf tribes but I am imagining a Sun Runner trying to blend in with traffic on Caravan Way in Allanak.

[Nao]

What is the actual problem?

The code doesn't always match up well with the game lore, for various reasons. As the game progresses through time and folks have the time, ability and inclination, bits and pieces of code are implemented to reflect the lore. I don't think of this as a problem, just a natural evolution of trying to make things a bit tighter and have a bit more consistency. Although I guess it could be argued that the lack of consistency is the problem (i.e. why are guilds restricted by race in but subguilds are not? That is not consistent).

Guilds have always been the 'main thing', with subguilds more of a side gig, with lower skillcaps. They're not what you're best at. That's the reasoning.

[LindseyBalboa]

When I go to read someone's post and they start with "your idea is bad" or "your vision is bad", know what I do?  I don't read the rest.  I have no interest in even hearing the rest of their opinion because they're just going to be an asshole.  Don't need 'em, don't want 'em.

If they say "I disagree with that and here's why", and show an ounce of respect, then I will.

My last response was incredibly conversational and probably not the best for text, so I'm actually going to use this as an opportunity for improvement in communication.

Of the 20 active desert elves (for this purpose active means logged on even once in 2023), only 2 have city-based subguilds.  Which tells me that the delf community is doing a pretty good job of self-policing this.  Which tells me that it won't be missed and there's a lot of arguments trying to keep it, when it only happens about 10% of the time.

I'd like to counter that as I believe it's looking at the data the wrong way, from a point of view that feels more "old Armageddon" than one in which people are honestly all trying to work together to tell stories.

Here's why I think that: as stated, players of d-elves seem to be doing a good job self-regulating what is supposed to be thematically rare. It takes focus to learn to sneak around in the city, time, effort, as everyone in the thread agrees.

Same data, but a different conclusion. Instead of 'they won't be missed,' I think this is actually a prime example of 1+ karma players following documentation.

To look at it another way, if the playerbase gradually stops playing as many magickers as they get all the concepts they wanted to play out of their systems, and magickers gradually become about 10% of the active pool of characters on-grid. Would the argument be made that 'they won't be missed' when removing magickers?

In conclusion, although the GDB is a small snapshot of a vocal part of the playerbase, I believe the hugely negative response overall in this thread and on Discord generally gives you the answer to 'will they be missed.' Yes. Should they ever have to be missed? No.

As for the other viewpoint, Brokkr, that 'according to lore desert elves cannot sneak while inside a city because they'd never be able to learn:'

I understand that 'players doing things' does not make a thing lore in-game, however, decades of real life time spent by players should probably be taken into account a bit more than it is being taken into account. Players being responsible and self-regulating a thematically rare occurrence should be trusted to continue to be judicious in their judgment.  If a player decides to pick a city stealth subguild as a d-elf they are committing to a background that has a lot of city in it, they're committing to city play, they're committing to a mundane, they're committing to interactivity between wild and city. They're actively making decisions to bring roleplay to isolated groups. These are the d-elves that go into the rinth. These are the d-elves that might do business with the Golden Hand.

Mechanically, the stealth system is binary and it is not mechanically able to show 'desert elves might be not as good in cities as city elves, when it comes to stealth' but that would not realistically mean desert elves are all bad at sneaking inside 100%.

As the system is 'all or nothing,' there's absolutely no way that lore-wise, desert elves are incapable of learning to sneak inside cities. They spend time there. A desert elf spending 1/3 of a year with a city elf would 100% learn to sneak effectively in the cities as that is their MAIN defense. Real life military training boot camps for stealth take 2-3 months. A desert elf that spends a few weeks out of a year would eventually learn to blend in by necessity. The argument that 'they hate being inside cities' could easily be applied to 'they learned quickly to hide from people staring at them all the time.'

[Classclown]

Half-giants, as a race, should all get city listen so they can listen in when the bar is full or they're too big for a table.

Dune Traders should also get city listen, they travel between the cities/outposts. They would be the news reporters/gossip spreaders/information mongers of the Known.

[LindseyBalboa]

Last thought on this subject.

City hide is blending into the city. Staff says desert elves could never learn to blend in with other people in the city, and it would need ~15 years of growing up in the city to be able to do it. The argument is, this is lore.

I'd like to bring up some other lore: racism.

Racism against elves is so rampant I have been arrested by a templar on more than one occasion and every time, I've either been blamed for ANOTHER elf's crimes, been able to blame another elf, or escaped and another elf was punished. Because all elves look the same.

It literally takes switching cloaks and walking to become a city-elf. Master hide. Nobody would look twice.

emote throws on a dark, hooded cloak and slinks along behind a group of city elves in dark, hooded cloaks.

Literally unseeable.