On the matter of soft closing certain elf tribes in favor of others.

[LidlessEye]

Good day to all. I wished to address this matter of closing the SR, Soh and Two Moons and letting the Akei, Red Fangs and Dune Stalkers continue, and I've got a few concerns.

Since the Dune Stalkers, Akei and Red Fangs are allies, where will the inter tribal conflict come from? Without proper opposition, what you now have is a unipolar elven world: a bunch of like 10 or so Delf PCs, that others must appease at all costs since they have no other PC elven tribe at odds with them politically.
One might say the cities and the human tribals could, but lets be real. No mundane will ever match, let alone best a desert elf in its natural habitat, if the desert elf (s) even has half a brain. I'm concerned all this will do is unbalance the game world and give undue influence to the tribes that have been decreed to remain open.
To cite an example, before Tuluk was opened for PC play, Allanak had too much influence. Even in Luir's where merchant cronies enacted the will of Allanak making it essentially a satellite state of sorts. With Tuluk open, Luir's was forced to be more neutral, as it should have always been.
I fear this will happen again, but in a different way.

And I wouldn't assume the intentions of other players, but was I playing in the DS/Akei/RF, I'd want someone to plot against, someone actually capable of matching my own delf capabilities. Otherwise I'd be terribly bored.

To conclude, I personally feel this decision needs to be rethought. Thank you.

[LidlessEye]

Additional point: The Akei, The Dune Stalkers and the Red Fangs are not trading tribes. They tend towards secrecy and insularity and we all know players have been complaining against this. What this will do is only make Delves even more iso

[Inks]

Wait they are closing the Pah tribes? Where does it say this?

I have seen new PCs in these tribes. 

If so there has definately been a mistake. Every elf shouldn't be allied with every elf considering the coded power the tribes you listed have. Elan Pah was Shaloonsh's idea in the first place.

The SLK and SR are the most important tribes for the gameworld, imo. Especially the SR.

Two Moons also have an important place in the world since they interact with Allanak openly and are a haven for indie travellers and traders. Not really my style but I see the value in the Two Moons.

I'd say the Dune Stalkers and Red Fangs are the least neccesary tribes, (not an attack on Dune Stalker or Red Fang players by the way I have found their RP to be solid).


The Akai is definately a useful tribe to counteract northern spamhunters and make the north more unsafe for gemmed and rogues.

[Armaddict]

Additional point: The Akei, The Dune Stalkers and the Red Fangs are not trading tribes. They tend towards secrecy and insularity and we all know players have been complaining against this. What this will do is only make Delves even more iso

While they may not be trade-focused tribes, they do trade.  They are also all raiding tribes.  They are not necessarily allied, but some of them do have similar views on certain aspects but can still have transgressions against each other.

My guess is that these three were chosen to keep the wilds dangerous in less predictable ways, i.e. It's not just 'avoid this area and the desert elf tribes won't care about you'. They can be aggressive anywhere.  This is beneficial I do believe, in terms of what has been discussed as far as making the wilds as dangerous as possible.

[SpyGuy]

I love the ATV.  Always been my favorite delf tribe so I'm biased.

I have limited experience with the new versions of the tribes that reopened as I wasn't playing.  To be honest I got tired of just Sun Runners and Two Moons.  They're both cool but were the only options for forever and have had their impact.  I'd like to see other varieties of desert elf have their moment.

I like Armaddict's take too.  +1

[Usiku]

We're not really 'closing' anything. Tribes are going on to a rotation and will be handled similarly to noble houses in Allanak. So which tribes have PC inhabitants and which don't will shift and change depending on player concepts or overarching plots. This will allow for a shifting dynamic in how whichever elves are open interact with each other and the game world. None of them are out of scope for future play, at all.

[BadSkeelz]

I am generally opposed to enabling antagonist clans for the sake of antagonism, as Arm PVP is generally dogshit. Might as well just put a blowdarting script on wilderness rooms.

[Riev]

To the West:
A hulking, green skinned gith, aiming to the east.

[Kestria]

Closing all the friendly tribes.
Keeping all the 'leaning toward PK' heavy tribes open.

Aka - staff want people back in the cities.

[roughneck]

I haven't worried about a random delf PK in years. Maybe that will change, wouldn't complain about it.

SLK is not a friendly tribe, always PK'd with the best of them.

Two Moons could have been way more antagonist, but Allanak never seemed able to fully leverage their PC's into doing their dirty work.

Sunrunners are friendly, it's true. Yuck.

All that to say, 3 tribes is probably enough, and it will be interesting how the Tablelands are occupied without any PC tribal residents. Open season on durrits.

[Riev]

I like rotations. They provide conflict.

I just hope that even players of noted wasteland raiders (Red Fangs, Dunestalkers, etc) understand that not every encounter requires death. Sometimes it does, but sometimes the better story is making people learn their lesson.

[whengravityfails]

Closing all the friendly tribes.
Keeping all the 'leaning toward PK' heavy tribes open.

Aka - staff want people back in the cities.

Another 'cart before the horse' solution. Making the wilderness more hostile isn't going to bring people back into the cities if the cities aren't fun to play in.
Also, it's depressing that the two major Delf crafting/trading clans are getting soft closed at the same time. Having both the SR and TM unavailable simultaneously seems a misstep for that reason.

[Armaddict]

Another 'cart before the horse' solution. Making the wilderness more hostile isn't going to bring people back into the cities if the cities aren't fun to play in.

Making the wilderness more hostile/dangerous is a step that needs to be taken whether the city migration is what the end goal is or not.  For your metaphor, it would be a handcart, not a full sized cart.  You don't need a horse for it.

[Usiku]

We didn't actually pick which of the tribes to keep open right now and which ones to soft close for the rotation. You guys did. So there is no particular reason staff side for the particular ones that will be staying open in the short term.

[Patuk]

Sorry, who's 'you guys', and when exactly did they pick anything? I'm just confused now.

[HazelHomewrecker]

..Is Usiku referencing the troll thread that Shabago started, which was incredibly poorly received? I'm not sure if that data is still valid.

[Kestria]

I would quite like to see where the players chose which ones to close.. I must have missed that poll :/

Not to mention polls have already been proven, by staff, to be entirely pointless as you can vote for every option, or multiple options.

[mansa]

Sorry, who's 'you guys', and when exactly did they pick anything? I'm just confused now.

..Is Usiku referencing the troll thread that Shabago started, which was incredibly poorly received? I'm not sure if that data is still valid.

I think both of these statements are leading a narrative that is misleading.

The simple solution is:
"Which tribes have the largest population right now in game, from the data points of what the players are playing and enjoying.. and if the tribe has very few or no population, to phase them out."

[Patuk]

That may well be, Mansa, but it entirely isn't clear to me how we get from A to B

[Pariah]

That may well be, Mansa, but it entirely isn't clear to me how we get from A to B

A: Nobody or one person in tribe.
B: Soft close it.

Seems pretty simple.

[HazelHomewrecker]

I'm not entirely beat up about some delf clans being soft-closed and put on rotation, what Usiku said just didn't make much sense for a minute. I'm somewhat concerned however that the three tribes remaining leave little room for inter-tribe conflict based on some points in their documentation. I've never played a Dune Stalker, though, so I can't say for them.

[Pariah]

Totally spitballing as I can't see the info to make anything more than a guess.

But from talking on discord and GDB, it seems a /large/ chunk of our playerbase is some flavor of murderhobo, whether that's "I'm here to cut up critters/npcs with bone swords." or "I'm here to kill players!"

Murderhobo'ing leads people to go to clans/jobs that support that type of play.  While there are still social/trader type players, it seems like the numbers didn't support keeping open the flavor type tribes and the murderhobo tribes are what won the players over and got the apps/characters for it.

[Lotion]

http://armageddon.org/help/view/akei'ta%20var

This tribe is not a tribe for beginner desert-elf players. You start in a highly deadly environment full of things a lot more dangerous than you are. You will need to know how to handle a desert elf before stepping into the Akei'ta Var with an expectation of a long life.

http://armageddon.org/help/view/red%20fangs
Players interested in taking part in the legend of the Red Fangs are held to a much higher standard of play than many others. If you wish to play one, please submit a role request with your character concept. Not all applicants will be accepted.

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Dune%20Stalkers
Due to the secretive nature of the clan, not all who apply will be accepted. A reliable reputation to keep OOC secrets is required.

I find the lack of "entry level" delf clans staying open concerning. The most entry level of the open delf clans is Dune Stalkers which is not very entry level.

[Riev]

So... app for one of the closed tribes and wait until it re-opens. They're going to base what is open and closed on where the interest seems to be.

Complaining about lack of options won't mean anything unless you vote!

[BadSkeelz]

Soft closing has two problems within itself:

1) It's a discouraging attitude for players, who now have an added hoop they need to jump through to play the character they want to play. Not only do they have to meet the usual criteria, now they have to hope their concept personally excites Staff. Some players are going to think that isn't worth the investment and not play that character at all, perhaps not play Armageddon entirely. I know this because I'm such a player whose looking for Minimal Staff Involvement in setting up and running a character.

2) It creates needless busy work on the part of staff, assuming they're giving the applications that do come in a fair assessment and not just writing them off because "Sorry, we're soft closed."

The whole change smacks of needless bureaucratism and ham-fisted social engineering. Staff should be asking players of desert elves what makes the clans popular and try applying those lessons to the rest of the game world.