Discussion of Staff Policies and Documentation

[tiny rainbow]

If staff can get punished for doing things that don't break the rules, surely players should be too, isn't that fair, what's wrong with that Patuk?

If you look at https://armageddon.org/help/view/Rules it says under 1

Failure to roleplay and disregarding documentation can result in warnings, karma reduction, storage of your character, and temporary and permanent bans.

Hard to say without knowing what you did though? But I know people do tend to do cheesy things a lot so I have that concern as not a lot of staff are willing to enforce RP rules (and it's something is needed for the game to support people that are not code-focused, they need that protection against mindless twinkery stuff or no one wants to play in cities etc)

Maybe we just need a better https://armageddon.org/help/view/roleplaying on what is bad RP (I've said this a few times before all this but no one listened to me just like everything else, haha)? There's a lot of situations that can be hard to place and especially not always clear for newer players

[Suhuy]

And you know this because just last year, you backed up Shaloonsh himself for force-storing me, screeching at me, and threatening to dock my karma for breaking rules that are nowhere to be found on HELP RULES.

Holy cow this exact same thing happened to me a few months ago. Shaloonsh started harassing me in game about a previous character, unrelated to my existing one, and when I refused to respond to his aggressive behavior and simply ignored him, brokrr came to the rescue to demand I respond to him OR ELSE. When I made it clear I disagreed with both of them, brokrr made a snappy, sarcastic reply, saying "good luck the next time you encounter a carru!" BTW  brokrr, I've encountered a near countless number of carru since then. Haven't had any issues so far, but you're welcome to do an animation for me next time.

Alternatively, drop the attitude and own up to your past mistakes.  You can't have magically overlooked Shaloonsh's cheating and general awfulness while simultaneously teaming up with him to harass players over petty minutiae in a game that went from bleeding to on life support.

[CirclelessBard]

The thing about trust is that it is far easier to lose than it is to gain.

It stands to reason that individual staff members either purposefully overlooked Shalooonsh's behavior, or did not have the competence/attentiveness required to catch onto it. Neither of these explanations for why Shalooonsh was allowed to misbehave for as long as he did is ideal, and both explanations are likely true to some degree. The fact that it took over a month for staff to finally admit that he is banned from the game is bittersweet to me, because it follows the previous attempt of letting him "resign voluntarily", which follows the previous attempt of essentially letting Shalooonsh do whatever he wanted, etc. In terms of trust, it's painful because it essentially paints a picture of staff trying very hard to hold onto Shalooonsh for as long as possible until he became a completely untenable liability.

I appreciate that staff are laying out the groundwork for regaining trust. But I hope that nobody expects things to be repaired overnight. Staff need to make a conscious and consistent effort to be trustworthy. And players need to have the grace to give staff the space to make things right.The best thing to come out of all this is the new staff policies, but this whole debacle was caused by staff not following their own rules in the first place. While new rules are encouraging, staff need to prove that they can follow their own rules, new or not.  It will probably take months or even years of consistent effort.

Personally, I intend to give staff the space to improve the game from a distance. I can't justify reinvesting time into the game right now. As a victim of sexual harassment and survivor of sexual violence, it's surreal to see that the staff that defended Shalooonsh and his behavior in the past are the same ones promising they will be better in the future. I just don't know that will actually happen. So I'll check back another time and see how things are going. I wish the Armageddon community the best of luck.

[whengravityfails]

Honestly? Staff have already offered up too much to those who never had any intention other than to see them all collectively punished for the actions of one extremely bad actor and a disbelief that somehow they didn't function as an All Seeing Eye to watch said bad actor.

Said bad actor is gone and banned. The others have admitted to only seeing pieces and fragments and not the whole. They've said they'll be more vigilant now. This is perfect - and frankly as much as was ever truly necessary. There's a lot of assumption that all players feel this inchoate anger towards the staff to take it to extreme limits when it's only been a vocal minority and this vocal minority has caused players to leave due to the incessant extreme demands.

For example, the heavy restraints put on what roles Staff can play. Why must it go any further than psions and sorcs and Templars and Nobles? It's swung too heavily in the other direction to where demands are not common sense but punitive. The same with requiring staff to be visible on the who list at all times - or even worse, in the room (which would -definitely- impact how people RP and act OOCly). It feels like grievances run amok that go far past the initial problem. On top of it, people like CirclelessBard have no intent to return anyways, so why bend over backwards for them when most of the rest of us are tired of this grievance crusade that is embittering other players that -aren't- part of the vocal minority and just wanted to see that one bad actor punished and for the game to go on?

[Patuk]

And you know this because just last year, you backed up Shaloonsh himself for force-storing me, screeching at me, and threatening to dock my karma for breaking rules that are nowhere to be found on HELP RULES.

Holy cow this exact same thing happened to me a few months ago. Shaloonsh started harassing me in game about a previous character, unrelated to my existing one, and when I refused to respond to his aggressive behavior and simply ignored him, brokrr came to the rescue to demand I respond to him OR ELSE. When I made it clear I disagreed with both of them, brokrr made a snappy, sarcastic reply, saying "good luck the next time you encounter a carru!" BTW  brokrr, I've encountered a near countless number of carru since then. Haven't had any issues so far, but you're welcome to do an animation for me next time.

Alternatively, drop the attitude and own up to your past mistakes.  You can't have magically overlooked Shaloonsh's cheating and general awfulness while simultaneously teaming up with him to harass players over petty minutiae in a game that went from bleeding to on life support.

Christ, man, I thought my stuff was bad. Jesus.

[Brisket]

Honestly? Staff have already offered up too much to those who never had any intention other than to see them all collectively punished for the actions of one extremely bad actor and a disbelief that somehow they didn't function as an All Seeing Eye to watch said bad actor.

Said bad actor is gone and banned. The others have admitted to only seeing pieces and fragments and not the whole. They've said they'll be more vigilant now. This is perfect - and frankly as much as was ever truly necessary. There's a lot of assumption that all players feel this inchoate anger towards the staff to take it to extreme limits when it's only been a vocal minority and this vocal minority has caused players to leave due to the incessant extreme demands.

For example, the heavy restraints put on what roles Staff can play. Why must it go any further than psions and sorcs and Templars and Nobles? It's swung too heavily in the other direction to where demands are not common sense but punitive. The same with requiring staff to be visible on the who list at all times - or even worse, in the room (which would -definitely- impact how people RP and act OOCly). It feels like grievances run amok that go far past the initial problem. On top of it, people like CirclelessBard have no intent to return anyways, so why bend over backwards for them when most of the rest of us are tired of this grievance crusade that is embittering other players that -aren't- part of the vocal minority and just wanted to see that one bad actor punished and for the game to go on?

It's not a good look to start off assuming negative intent in the feedback received.  As Suhuy, Patuk, CirclelessBard, and others have pointed out this was not just a single bad actor, but rather a system that allowed a bad actor to operate with near impunity for almost a decade.  Nobody is looking to punish anyone, and there have been a dozen suggestions (cycling staff in/out more frequently, further transparency, etc.) that have been suggested.  Staff does not seem receptive to most of them, though they have made concessions with others.

Whatever the reasons - inattentiveness, poor staff tools for monitoring others, collusion, etc. - this happened.  Staffing is not a fulltime job, but Armageddon can easily be described as a fulltime hobby.  I know over the years I've had times where I put more time into Armageddon than I did the job I used to pay my bills, and while that's not healthy in the longterm and unlikely to be the way I'd ever play again, it does speak to the amount of time and effort the game requires.  That makes it a large even outsized part of people's lives, and it means that people are very invested.  The things that occur on this text game have repercussions for those other people, and those repercussions can lead to real feelings of hurt and whatever else.

I don't think there are more than one or two 'bad actors' who want staff punished out there, and I doubt they're still posting on the forums trying to help by clearly stating what they want and how things could change in ways that would make them feel good about playing again.  It's unfair to those people and worse, for you, unlikely to actually help progress the conversation to a point where things are 'good' again to leap in and try to paint people you disagree with as bad actors looking to punish other people.

The game is currently nearly dead.  Average playercounts are lower than they've ever been.  The people you're attacking as bad actors seeking to punish are the people you used to pretend to be a desert weirdo with.  Without them you're just playing a DIKU mud with a weird casting code.

[Jeka]

Ban Reviews (high priority)
   There will not be a full ban amnesty for several reasons.  Our account system does not record the date when someone was banned, so it is not feasible to say "give me a list of all game bans in the past 3 years".  Instead, it's basically a "all bans ever".  Moving forward we will fix this so that a game ban is timestamped.  We should not unban multiplayers, or certain people who have done some rather heinous things, or players who asked us specifically to ban them.  So that means someone would have to compile a list of all accounts banned since the beginning and sort through them to see which should be removed and which should remain.
   Instead, there is an open invitation to anyone who is banned from the game to send in a request and ask for a review.  We understand that there are some people who will not be happy with having to ask for it versus it being automatically lifted, and while we regret that to be the case, it just isn't a viable option.

Staff can't think of any players they should reach out to and do right by?  No players in recent history that they retaliated against at the center of all of this?  Not any? 🤔 Are we all supposed to just keep pretending we don't know people's names because "bans can't be discussed"?  Staff know exactly who they should be reaching out to in this situation but they're apparently going to put that on the people they banned and alienated.

[FamousAmos]

Why? Staff has made amends, adjustments as was required. If people want to return to the game, the least they can do is pick up their mouse and shoot a request.

[BadSkeelz]

Staff have just changed and written rules that I suspect they'll break eventually anyway. Staff weren't "supposed" to play sorcerers years ago and that didn't stop Brokkr or Seidhr from doing so. Hell, Halaster as the Plainsmen was the most powergaming resource PC of all.

It's fair to ask why is it on player's shoulders to take steps to fix a mess that is of Staff's own making.

[FamousAmos]

Will that truly bring the banned players back to the game though? Or is it to just have the final word in this all?

The Plainsman... how long ago was that? You really want to bring back something that happened 15 years ago? Staff amended what needed to be changed, they banned the person who had it all implode.

Tbh its a bit nitpicky at this point. Its not hard to shoot a request.

[Malken]

Staff have just changed and written rules that I suspect they'll break eventually anyway. Staff weren't "supposed" to play sorcerers years ago and that didn't stop Brokkr or Seidhr from doing so. Hell, Halaster as the Plainsmen was the most powergaming resource PC of all.

It's fair to ask why is it on player's shoulders to take steps to fix a mess that is of Staff's own making.

So what is your honest solution to all this? They've banned Shalooonsh, they're pretty honest about having messed up, they're very positive in Discord about the future, they're taking all the complaints thrown at them without threatening the players back... I'm not really sure what else they can do. If you really don't trust them anymore that's different and understandable, but if you want positive changes at this point you need to give them at least some sort of a chance. It doesn't mean that you have to come back to the game right away, but saying that they'll fuck up again for sure is pretty harsh.

The banned players that some of you are probably talking about all mentioned that they will never come back to the game no matter what, so what would be achieved by reaching out to them at this point?

[CirclelessBard]

Honestly? Staff have already offered up too much to those who never had any intention other than to see them all collectively punished for the actions of one extremely bad actor and a disbelief that somehow they didn't function as an All Seeing Eye to watch said bad actor.

Said bad actor is gone and banned. The others have admitted to only seeing pieces and fragments and not the whole. They've said they'll be more vigilant now. This is perfect - and frankly as much as was ever truly necessary. There's a lot of assumption that all players feel this inchoate anger towards the staff to take it to extreme limits when it's only been a vocal minority and this vocal minority has caused players to leave due to the incessant extreme demands.

For example, the heavy restraints put on what roles Staff can play. Why must it go any further than psions and sorcs and Templars and Nobles? It's swung too heavily in the other direction to where demands are not common sense but punitive. The same with requiring staff to be visible on the who list at all times - or even worse, in the room (which would -definitely- impact how people RP and act OOCly). It feels like grievances run amok that go far past the initial problem. On top of it, people like CirclelessBard have no intent to return anyways, so why bend over backwards for them when most of the rest of us are tired of this grievance crusade that is embittering other players that -aren't- part of the vocal minority and just wanted to see that one bad actor punished and for the game to go on?

I am giving staff a chance, but I am not going to play and expose myself to potential future victimization. I am going to wait and see how things pan out. I am going to wait and see if staff can prove they can follow the new paradigm they intend to establish or if they lose sight of their path again.

Characterizing me as having no intent to return is unfair, and exactly the opposite of the point of my previous posts. I want to return. But I am going to wait until I feel comfortable trusting staff and the community in general.

[BadSkeelz]

Staff have just changed and written rules that I suspect they'll break eventually anyway. Staff weren't "supposed" to play sorcerers years ago and that didn't stop Brokkr or Seidhr from doing so. Hell, Halaster as the Plainsmen was the most powergaming resource PC of all.

It's fair to ask why is it on player's shoulders to take steps to fix a mess that is of Staff's own making.

So what is your honest solution to all this? They've banned Shalooonsh, they're pretty honest about having messed up, they're very positive in Discord about the future, they're taking all the complaints thrown at them without threatening the players back... I'm not really sure what else they can do. If you really don't trust them anymore that's different and understandable, but if you want positive changes at this point you need to give them at least some sort of a chance.

The banned players that some of you are probably talking about all mentioned that they will never come back to the game no matter what, so what would be achieved by reaching out to them at this point?

Brokkr and Halaster should both resign as Producer and the position should be abolished. They do not have the temperament or the trust for leading a community. Become coders or something, but I wouldn't trust either of them to give players a chance against staff misconduct. Based on their past actions, Staff abusing their position of privilege isn't a system bug, but a feature.

Staff as a whole needs to be reformed and purged. It is top-heavy relative to the playerbase, and bureaucratically stifling to storytellers within it. Administrators and Producers are redundant upper management. Storytellers need to fully commit to either bringing the game world alive, or step down and play normal characters. Players should be able to tell who their storytellers are, and periodically be able to vote to strip them of them position. Players should also be subject to community-driven bans. To do this, we need to know who is and has played. That'll require a wholesale reboot of player accounts, as there are players who do not want their identities exposed with very good reason. I would shut down the Armageddon discord.

[Qzzrbl]

Staff has made amends

Have they made amends to certain specific people that have been specifically done dirty? There is no reason that they should have to ask to have a ban that shouldn't have existed in the first place to be lifted. Even if it's just a symbolic gesture to people that might have no intention of returning ever, it's still worth doing.

[FamousAmos]

So it is about having the final word then?

Tbh I doubt it will change anything. Nothing will please them at this point. Absolutely nothing. Besides seeing the game shut down.

[Qzzrbl]

So it is about having the final word then?

Tbh I doubt it will change anything. Nothing will please them at this point. Absolutely nothing. Besides seeing the game shut down.

That's a bad take.

Is expecting a well-deserved apology after being done wrong about "having the final word"?

Kind of the same thing here.

[FamousAmos]

Is expecting a well-deserved apology after being done wrong about "having the final word"?

If they really would like to start the dialogue about apologies, they can shoot a message and start the conversation. Some people don't want to get back/be unbanned/ have anything to do with Armageddon ever again, so why would staff poke that bear?

IMO staff apologized by doing what was asked (I'm not going to list it all because its easy to find in the recent staff announcements), making amends, actively making changes. Sometimes there were literal apologies.

[BadSkeelz]

But why is it on the wronged party to take the first step?

[FamousAmos]

But why is it on the wronged party to take the first step?

But they haven't and will not. Staff has already taken many first steps with all the changes implemented and requests amended.

[Qzzrbl]

Is expecting a well-deserved apology after being done wrong about "having the final word"?

If they really would like to start the dialogue about apologies, they can shoot a message and start the conversation.

If that's your idea of propriety, I really hope you never do anything to me that gets acknowledged as warranting an apology from you, because I am 100% going to be buying a house in Grudge City if the expectation is that I, the wronged party, should take the first step in making things right.

Do mind that I say this with love-- checking tone and all that. <3

[FamousAmos]

Sure. Selective reading and all.

[BadSkeelz]

But why is it on the wronged party to take the first step?

But they haven't and will not. Staff has already taken many first steps with all the changes implemented and requests amended.

Staff are apologizing to a room where the aggrieved parties are not necessarily present. By leaving bans in place, the remaining staff are signaling that they still believe they're justified to some extent.

All staff need to do is reverse every ban that wasn't made for gameplay reasons in the last, say, 4 months, and tell the players they're welcome to come back. In all likelihood those players will get themselves banned again because they're notoriously difficult to play with anyway. But upholding the actions of a disgraced staffer is just lazy optics.

[BadSkeelz]

Another thing Staff can do to try and get players to return is stop taking such a "our way or the highway" tone towards the disgruntled, as recently encapsulated in Halaster's latest post.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,59231.0.html

There are some who feel like they cannot move beyond the past issues, who feel like they can never trust staff again, and who never intend to play again.  To those people we are sorry you feel that way, and if we could change the past we would.  But we kindly ask you do not linger in the community just to stir up past issues and rekindle grudges.  We wish you the very best and hope you find a community where you feel happy and safe as you move on.

[whengravityfails]

Staff has taken the first step and explained why they're not going to blanket unban a bunch of people and put out the invitation for those who are supposedly "wronged" to ask to be unbanned. They don't need to kiss the ring, they don't need to grovel. It's a one sentence reason why.

I swear some of you won't be happy - such as BadSkeelz - until the staff has been humiliated and dissolved and replaced with anarchy. At this point if those who are "wronged" wish to return, they can very easily ask to get their bans reversed. If that's too much for their wounded pride, oh well. Grow a thicker skin. If they don't intend on returning, then it's a waste of time better spent on players who remain or intend on returning.

[Qzzrbl]

Sure. Selective reading and all.

Well alright, I'll go over the whole post if you'd like.

Some people don't want to get back/be unbanned/ have anything to do with Armageddon ever again, so why would staff poke that bear?

Because it's kind of the right thing to do? Even if said parties have zero interest in returning or having Armageddon in their life, it's a tangible gesture.

IMO staff apologized by doing what was asked (I'm not going to list it all because its easy to find in the recent staff announcements), making amends, actively making changes. Sometimes there were literal apologies.

You can shout "yeah we messed up we're sorry" into the void all you want, but if punitive action is still upheld against people that didn't deserve it, then where's the weight to those apologies? And if by any chance they do want to return and see how things are going in the future, should they be facing a locked door? Personally I don't think so.