Discussion of Staff Policies and Documentation

[Qzzrbl]

And this whole "ya'll will never be happy" crowd.

Like.... Man.

Yeah, I have trouble being happy with the whole situation when there are some bare-bones basic "decent things to do that will cost actually nothing" steps that are getting glossed over entirely.

[Tailong]

Another thing Staff can do to try and get players to return is stop taking such a "our way or the highway" tone towards the disgruntled, as recently encapsulated in Halaster's latest post.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,59231.0.html

There are some who feel like they cannot move beyond the past issues, who feel like they can never trust staff again, and who never intend to play again.  To those people we are sorry you feel that way, and if we could change the past we would.  But we kindly ask you do not linger in the community just to stir up past issues and rekindle grudges.  We wish you the very best and hope you find a community where you feel happy and safe as you move on.

I thought that was really well said, and its honestly sad that a lot of people that have 'quit' are constantly on the forums, repeating the same tired shit, and crying about past transgressions. Its time to stop beating the fuck out of the proverbial dead horse. People need to move on, or beat feet. Pitter padder, let's skiddatter.

[Malken]

Another thing Staff can do to try and get players to return is stop taking such a "our way or the highway" tone towards the disgruntled, as recently encapsulated in Halaster's latest post.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,59231.0.html

I'm a very cynical person and I don't see that post at all as a "our way or the highway" post...

Who exactly do you want unbanned? There aren't a whole lot of people who are still banned aside from Bebop?

Player numbers are slowly going back up (15+ right now on a Thursday afternoon) so I'm guessing a few people are seeing the positive in Halaster's posts.

[BadSkeelz]

Its time to stop beating the fuck out of the proverbial dead horse.

The Staff horse is still very much alive. They will fuck this game up again as long as the same people are in charge.

Another thing Staff can do to try and get players to return is stop taking such a "our way or the highway" tone towards the disgruntled, as recently encapsulated in Halaster's latest post.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,59231.0.html

I'm a very cynical person and I don't see that post at all as a "our way or the highway" post...

Who exactly do you want unbanned? There aren't a whole lot of people who are still banned aside from Bebop?

Player numbers are slowly going back up (15+ right now on a Thursday afternoon) so I'm guessing a few people are seeing the positive in Halaster's posts.

Bebop would be an easy win, especially as she'd probably get herself banned again within weeks over some new drama. But at least it'd be a different drama.

There are other bans that should be reviewed and confirmed by people other than Shaloonsh, since his judgement is no longer valid.

[FamousAmos]

"If you don't do this, I will never play again!"

*staff does that*

"But if you don't do this either, I will never play again!"

*staff does that too*

"But if you won't change that...."

And so on, and so forth...

At this point its just arguing for the sake of arguing.

[Qzzrbl]

"If you don't do this, I will never play again!"

*staff does that*

"But if you don't do this either, I will never play again!"

*staff does that too*

"But if you won't change that...."

And so on, and so forth...

At this point its just arguing for the sake of arguing.

That's a little reductive and straw-man'ish, isn't it?

I don't think anybody is saying what you're saying they're saying.

This game and this community have a long history, and it's already been acknowledged from up on high that changes are needed. There's definitely been some progress, which is great, but if there are still issues, or perceived issues, they should not be ignored or swept under the rug just because some of the issues were handled. That would be detrimental in the long run.

Do it right or don't bother doing it at all, y'know?

That's my thoughts on that matter, at least.

[FamousAmos]

Respectfully, we will agree to disagree.

Staff did right, in my opinion.

[Brisket]

Respectfully, we will agree to disagree.

Staff did right, in my opinion.

That's awesome, it's good that they passed your threshold for desired change.  It's ok for other people to have a different threshold or to desire and even request other changes.  It doesn't invalidate your enjoyment of the game or staff's efforts so far.  It's just them saying what they'd like to see.  Strawmanning their arguments doesn't help get player numbers up.  Let's, as Halaster said, approach each other from a place of empathy and engage with things in good faith.

[Enthemu]

We appreciate the critiques and ideas. Feel free to continue to offer suggestions and provide feeback on what you would like to see from staff and the community in general. There have been numerous adjustments over the past month in regards to policy, rules, and new teams being put in place. I would ask you continue to work with us and give the staffing team and community time to adjust to these new changes. I think we all need to see if the adjustments are improving the quality of play and gaming experience for everyone. I can almost certainly guarantee that adjustments will be made in one form or another. New policy and rules can be adopted, so please do no think this is going to be it and we're just going to call it good.

If you're not happy with the adjustments that have been made or feel that staff has been disingenuous with steps they've taken, then I am sorry. I will echo what Halaster said in his announcement:

There are some who feel like they cannot move beyond the past issues, who feel like they can never trust staff again, and who never intend to play again.  To those people we are sorry you feel that way, and if we could change the past we would.  But we kindly ask you do not linger in the community just to stir up past issues and rekindle grudges.  We wish you the very best and hope you find a community where you feel happy and safe as you move on.

We're doing what we can to make this the best possible game. For our amazing playerbase and the RPI community in general. If you're here continuing to comment in this thread, that can only mean that you do love ArmageddonMUD and you wish to see it become the best game possible. All that I ask, is that you work with us in making that possible. The staff is going to continue to do the best that we can for you. Let's not flame each other. We're all here in the same pool of silt. Thanks.

[MarshallDFX]

A theme seems to be "how can it be possible staff don't remember who was banned recently".  A riposte seems to be "do you mean anybody other than bebop". It feels like nobody really knows what happened.

This should be run to ground? And staff could surely be a little more clear on "recent" events, while asking for understanding on quite old bans.

[BadSkeelz]

I think my best move will be to go back to muting this discussion board and doing my best to ignore Staff beyond the bare minimum interaction necessary to play the game. Maybe get some enjoyment in before privileged Staff attitudes and bending of rules "For the good of the game" inevitably fuck things up again.

Staff, just remember:

[CirclelessBard]

We appreciate the critiques and ideas. Feel free to continue to offer suggestions and provide feeback on what you would like to see from staff and the community in general. There have been numerous adjustments over the past month in regards to policy, rules, and new teams being put in place. I would ask you continue to work with us and give the staffing team and community time to adjust to these new changes. I think we all need to see if the adjustments are improving the quality of play and gaming experience for everyone. I can almost certainly guarantee that adjustments will be made in one form or another. New policy and rules can be adopted, so please do no think this is going to be it and we're just going to call it good.

If you're not happy with the adjustments that have been made or feel that staff has been disingenuous with steps they've taken, then I am sorry. I will echo what Halaster said in his announcement:

There are some who feel like they cannot move beyond the past issues, who feel like they can never trust staff again, and who never intend to play again.  To those people we are sorry you feel that way, and if we could change the past we would.  But we kindly ask you do not linger in the community just to stir up past issues and rekindle grudges.  We wish you the very best and hope you find a community where you feel happy and safe as you move on.

We're doing what we can to make this the best possible game. For our amazing playerbase and the RPI community in general. If you're here continuing to comment in this thread, that can only mean that you do love ArmageddonMUD and you wish to see it become the best game possible. All that I ask, is that you work with us in making that possible. The staff is going to continue to do the best that we can for you. Let's not flame each other. We're all here in the same pool of silt. Thanks.

There is a huge difference between "I am sorry" and "sorry you feel that way", and the sentiment that surrounds both statements. One feels genuine, the other does not. I appreciate your explanation and I wish you the best of luck in helping the rest of your team right the ship's course.

[Pariah]

Just because I haven't been reading this whole thread, just skimming...

Is everyone hinting at Bebop?  Is that what everyone wants to be fixed, Bebop to be allowed back?

Someone message her and have her put in a request to come back if she hasn't already.

Or am I missing something else?

[Rahnevyn]

There have been a couple moderation reports on this thread. I'd like to remind everyone that showing kindness and respect above all are the first words of the first rule on the GDB. I don't really want to muzzle anyone or moderate posts in this thread just yet, because overcensoring dissent isn't a great way to achieve long term healing in my opinion. I also think it is fair to express the opinion that the recent staff actions taken don't go far enough or suffer from some of the same concerns that have been raised previously about staff's ability to police themselves. Those are valid questions we need to look at as a community as we move forward.

What I'll do instead is just remind everyone of this: by posting here you're taking part in a community, hopefully with the intent of making the community better or preventing the mistakes of the past to occur again. No one can accomplish that task alone. Staff must listen to the players and acknowledge their feelings and opinions, even when those can be discouraging; and likewise players must listen to the staff and acknowledge their feelings and opinions too.

Debate actions being taken or not, but please try to assume positive intent. I believe everyone posting here, no matter how frustrated they may sound, wants the game to improve. Improvement will start by listening, then coming together, and then moving on from where things used to be.

If you're not able or prepared to engage positively and travel down that road to improvement, either in this thread or the community at all, it's fair to ask what you're seeking to gain from participating. Again, I would not want myself or fellow moderators to moderate "negative" opinions, but I hope we could keep the discussion constructive here so that we can all move forward.

[Seeker]

Thank you, Rahnevyn.  Thank you, Emu-mu.

I tend to fall into "the right thing to do" camp on reaching out to players who have been been aggrieved by previous bans and behaviors that we see in a different light now.

This is not in every case of bans in the last several months. Sometimes banning is a necessary step in trying to protect the community or the integrity of the game.  It is a attempt at preserving safety.

But particularly when the banning included or touched on behaviors by staff that have been since been noted as inappropriate or not in our shared joint values, I do believe the burden of offering the olive branch lies with us.

Yes, in some cases, that offering might only get a harsh "never, jerkwads!  And here is WHY!" type of response.  But that is fine. At least we can say that we amended our ways and made the sincere effort to make things right. We can't control the outcome.  We can only control our efforts.

I believe how you build trust is only through consistently doing the right thing.  Not because it is punishing.  But because that doing the right thing is more important than personal pride, more important than standard procedures, more important than even the results.

Growth and understanding between us only moves at the speed of trust.

[Brisket]

There have been a couple moderation reports on this thread. I'd like to remind everyone that showing kindness and respect above all are the first words of the first rule on the GDB. I don't really want to muzzle anyone or moderate posts in this thread just yet, because overcensoring dissent isn't a great way to achieve long term healing in my opinion. I also think it is fair to express the opinion that the recent staff actions taken don't go far enough or suffer from some of the same concerns that have been raised previously about staff's ability to police themselves. Those are valid questions we need to look at as a community as we move forward.

What I'll do instead is just remind everyone of this: by posting here you're taking part in a community, hopefully with the intent of making the community better or preventing the mistakes of the past to occur again. No one can accomplish that task alone. Staff must listen to the players and acknowledge their feelings and opinions, even when those can be discouraging; and likewise players must listen to the staff and acknowledge their feelings and opinions too.

Debate actions being taken or not, but please try to assume positive intent. I believe everyone posting here, no matter how frustrated they may sound, wants the game to improve. Improvement will start by listening, then coming together, and then moving on from where things used to be.

If you're not able or prepared to engage positively and travel down that road to improvement, either in this thread or the community at all, it's fair to ask what you're seeking to gain from participating. Again, I would not want myself or fellow moderators to moderate "negative" opinions, but I hope we could keep the discussion constructive here so that we can all move forward.

Let's hope you moderate people with positive opinions toward staff too.  There have been a few in this thread that dipped into personal attacks, often without evidence, as a means to cut this attempt at making things better short. 

[flurry]

There's a world of difference between needing to ask to come back and being invited to come back. That said, I understand there's a practicality issue as explained by Halaster.

Here is a suggestion. Could the moderation team or the player committee, perhaps, nominate particular banned players for consideration to be invited back?

[Patuk]

There's a world of difference between needing to ask to come back and being invited to come back. That said, I understand there's a practicality issue as explained by Halaster.

Here is a suggestion. Could the moderation team or the player committee, perhaps, nominate particular banned players for consideration to be invited back?

This is something I'd been planning to do, should I get picked for the committee, yeah. It seems like one of those things that could be done with sufficient effort.

[ShaiHulud]

I dont think pointing fingers at anyone helps this ooc difficulty/drama. And you know who you are beating the bush, now leafless. Why is this OOC community, (toxic to the game) bigger than the In Game Community? I wish it was older again, mystery and wonder, and worry, IC.  All the drama that should be happening in game, is...down...(points in a deep hole) ..there.

[wizturbo]

All staff need to do is reverse every ban that wasn't made for gameplay reasons in the last, say, 4 months, and tell the players they're welcome to come back. In all likelihood those players will get themselves banned again because they're notoriously difficult to play with anyway. But upholding the actions of a disgraced staffer is just lazy optics.

I disagree with a lot you've said, mostly because you just seem really pissed off and confrontational about things (more than usual at least ).  But I do agree with this one....  if it wasn't for gameplay reasons, they should be unbanned and welcomed back.  Mistakes were made on all sides, and all sides should be given a second chance.  I think the same is true for some of the staff members that you have beef with BadSkeelz.  They're human, and I highly doubt they meant any malice with their actions.  They should get a second chance too. 

[Ath]

Please do not personally attack anyone, player, staff, moderator, or their next of kin, this is a breach of rule 1 and 4.  Threats of any kind are not acceptable.

[Halcyon]

Respectfully, please do not make any of the recent instigators a moderator or player committee member.  The reward for arson should not include a building permit.

[pilgrim]

Respectfully, please do not make any of the recent instigators a moderator or player committee member.  The reward for arson should not include a building permit.

Wait, who are the arsonists in this situation? People who called out bad behavior, or people who behaved badly?

If a conductor is driving a train off a cliff and a few people come over to the conductor and are like "hey stop there's a cliff there" and the conductor says "shut up" and so the people tell the other passengers "look there's a cliff there! And the conductor won't listen to me!" and people start jumping off the train... and the conductor turns around and is like "oh hey, we're sorry, okay we're not going to drive off the cliff... look, we're taking a different track..!"

But then they keep the people kicked off the train, and act as if those people were the ones doing wrong instead of the whole train-driving committee... "some people are just not going to like the direction of this train, and we'd like if they just left us alone rather than continually coming to try to ride our train"...

It's not crazy for someone to think "wow, this train is pretty committed to driving off cliffs". And only for people who actually want to ride trains off cliffs to continue riding the train?

What you have to think about is: the train is advertised as having a certain destination of "Roleplay". If you want the actual destination to be "Off a Cliff", then you've got to advertise it that way or else people are going to keep complaining. "Join this game if you like bullying people and being bullied by staff!" is not as great a line as "Join this game which has cohesive roleplay and a beautiful but brutal world with consistent lore!"

It is common sense to know that as long as you have that discrepency between what is advertised and what is real, you are going to get complaints. If you don't want complaints you have to either sincerely change track to become what is advertised, or change the way you represent the game to honestly indicate its reality.

[Kestria]

Please abide by the rules people.  Please refrain from any personal attacks.  Feel free to attack the idea, not the person.

[Seeker]

Respectfully, please do not make any of the recent instigators a moderator or player committee member.  The reward for arson should not include a building permit.

Respectfully, please do consider allowing recent instigators positions.  These positions are clearly a lot of work and not a reward.  Their demonstrated commitment to a better game, even against the trends of status quo inertia and the cost of potentially alienating co-players and staff shows sincere investment in a better outcome.

The reward for calling out "fire!" in a burning building and trying to help lead the way to safety through the smoke shouldn't be an immediate ban from serving on the public safety committee.