Facilitating finding RP with a small playerbase

[tiny rainbow]

if I did know that there were 4 other people in public rooms not hidden in Allanak, I would probably be more likely to go

But as mentioned before, part of the problem is exactly that you would go, that you would go there, instead of anywhere else - you'd have got a false impression, and passed up other characters that can't participate in this system because as mentioned before and the examples given of people acting very differently when they know other players is around (it's the same issues around making staff visible).

I think people are overestimating how discouraged people will be when they see that the taverns in their area are empty.

What about the people who feel discouraged that they are patiently waiting for RP, and people are using OOC methods that are suggesting it's busier somewhere else, so go there, and completely go past Luir's or whatever, instead?

Do you not think that might be a bit discouraging too?

Why create a two tier system that favors only one group?

Before any of this I would first suggest something intermediate and easy to implement - like a recruiting board for new characters, timezone info on clan pay when making a char, localization of characters when making a char, etc. More information given when planning out what to make and where to play.

At one point the Arm of the Dragon were advertising their playtimes on the IC rumor board, but I don't think that kind of info should be available OOC, it seemed silly because it was basically saying "Hi, Allanak is unmonitored outside these times, go wild". It's probably just better to keep selection blind so there's no OOC influence in decisions

[SilkyBoi]

I was toughing it out. But randomly finding the one other guy still hanging on with you dead kinda just adds to the downward spiral as now there is no one.

[GreenTransient]

I got tired of reading the same objections over and over without good options being offered in response.  In my search to find RP, I've moved elsewhere, which I guess seems to be the desired effect.  For whatever reason, to all of you who are so opposed to those of us stating that we can't find RP and are frustrated by that fact that we would like to see some kind of change to keep us playing here I hope you that insist that your personal opinion on what should and shouldn't be OOC should trump people wanting to play.  You deserve to feel the way we do, and I hope you get what you deserve.  People who are of the opinion that nothing is allowed to happen unless it benefits them personally, are a drag on the game and humanity.

[Beethoven]

These last two posts are an honest depiction of what is really happening with players. The player count speaks for itself, but if you don't believe that, at least listen to these people who are speaking out. For every tiny rainbow who is upset at the idea of making this change, there are probably 10+ players who quit out of frustration and loneliness. While I value the opinions of the tiny rainbows of the game, I don't think their comfort is worth losing the game over. Which is exactly what is happening, RIGHT NOW. Right before your eyes. I can't believe the contrarians don't think some concessions might actually be worth it. I really, really hope that staff listens to the desperation of (especially off-peak) players over the ones who think everything is cool and fine and shouldn't change (except, of course, in small, insignificant ways that are unlikely to make any difference), but I'm not counting on it, because denial and stagnancy are -- and I'm sad to say it -- classic Armageddon traditions.

Prove me wrong, staff. Read the writing on the wall.

[BadSkeelz]

The root cause of Armageddon's approaching demise is because too many people forgot that this is supposed to be a game and not a replacement for actual authority or emotional satisfaction in real life.

[Beethoven]

The root cause of Armageddon's approaching demise is because too many people forgot that this is supposed to be a game and not a replacement for actual authority or emotional satisfaction in real life.

While I agree with you, I do see efforts to mitigate that tendency...whether or not they can be trusted, I don't know yet. What I do know is that this will help us masochists who still do want to play, have a reason to even bother attempting to do so.

[FamousAmos]

The root cause of Armageddon's approaching demise is because too many people forgot that this is supposed to be a game and not a replacement for actual authority or emotional satisfaction in real life.

This. Its a game. Just that.

[Riev]

Nobody is asking Wizards of the Coast to change their rules at our hometable, here.

We're just trying to find ways to better get everyone TO our table and enjoying their time.

[BadSkeelz]

I mean, you have one Producer on record of desiring that there be ten or less active players in "their" game. So good luck with that.

The greatest motivator for me wanting to play the game has always been knowing that people are playing and what they're playing. Hearing of ongoing exploits and of fun, existing characters is way more of a draw than historical cases. Being told about any of this is of course against the rules, lest we threaten the sacred ic/ooc separation that only staff players are allowed to fully circumvent.

Kill that sacred cow and serve its meat up on a platter and we might get some re-engagement. Show people what can and is being done in game, now. Let them know where they can go and who they can talk to to get in on the action.

[Halaster]

I mean, you have one Producer on record of desiring that there be ten or less active players in "their" game. So good luck with that.

Can you show me that quote please?

[BadSkeelz]

I mean, you have one Producer on record of desiring that there be ten or less active players in "their" game. So good luck with that.

Can you show me that quote please?

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58875.msg1087227.html#msg1087227

[Halaster]

I mean, you have one Producer on record of desiring that there be ten or less active players in "their" game. So good luck with that.

Can you show me that quote please?

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58875.msg1087227.html#msg1087227

So this?

I am not particularly focused on numbers.  They are nice to have, obviously.  I have played the game in time periods where lots of time it was sub-10 players and we would be lucky to see 20 on.  And loved it.  Because there was a lot out there I hadn't seen...

Taken in context it seems pretty obvious that he's saying he's played when there were 10 people on and enjoyed it.  And that high numbers aren't his focus.  That's an impressive leap to say he desires it.

[whengravityfails]

I still don't understand what the issue is with a proposed system being opt-out for those who feel threatened in some way. Obviously people are having trouble finding other people to RP with and it is causing them to leave out of boredom and frustration. This is a major problem that needs fixing.

[tiny rainbow]

Because changing the game in drastic ways, to make it more like games that other people have already left for various reasons to come play here instead, is maybe not the smartest decision to make in a chain of consequences?

Because as other people have noted, those systems don't really help that much anyway since people:
- Just check them and log out
- Or only go to the places that are on the who list and ignore everywhere else

Because some people keep trying to push things over and over to change it to like how they want, instead of what other people are comfortable with?



Because the problem is not being able to see where people are OOC, the problem is low player count in cities? This is what is REALLY happening with players. And a lot of the reason people don't play in cities isn't just staff issues, it's OTHER PLAYERS.



Players who've apparently been playing for more than ten years. But openly advocate for cheating in plots, removing the rules, and giving newer players a bad impression - because we don't know if that person has had action taken against them and is disgruntled, or is someone who was previously considered a pillar of the community in a mafia kind of sense while being a corrupt piece of work with their friends.

Players that despite this, happily co-ordinate their plots over Discord with nobles or templars, right up to the point of getting their character made a red robe.

This stuff gets out, people talk, even when staff don't catch it, and people are afraid to pass it on. It's enough to slowly rot the game. Where do you think the aide players went? The people that make plots, maybe the people most needed of all for city RP?

A lot of people don't make forum posts, they get traumatised from the similarities to real abuse, from other players using Discord to groom people into their circles of corruption and implied threats once they find out what character someone is playing. People that just avoid MUDs entirely after that. I meet some of them playing other games. I have lots of friends too, but unlike some people, I deliberately try to keep the game separate, because I treasure the mystery and I don't want it to just feel like some abusive mafia.

Players acting like that.

Players killing their own game, that they claim to love.

Because there's no exit poll when people stop logging on - so no one was even knowing to be ale to listen to the people that already left without making any complaints (because MOST PEOPLE DO NOT MAKE COMPLAINTS THIS IS EXTREMELY RARE AND SHOULD NOT BE RELIED UPON), before any of the recent stuff - players driving off other players.

Because we rely too much on email, which only older people use outside formal contexts, and the website is like some ancient artifact from times past, dug up from underneath the ocean, that occasionally blinks an eye and screams unnatural sounds (I really respect those brave people who signed up to help with the webdev a LOT, it seems like such an awkward position to be put in when people can't be hired to help out with it)

The people that don't make much forum posts. The people that don't like to talk about things they've seen or heard other players doing, because they're scared of retaliation. The people that don't make reports. Because there's been MASSIVE COMPLACENCY on how bad the problem has been.

Because we keep ending up with people who sometimes seem like they don't really know what they are doing and miss basic things, which means they are missing bigger things too (producers should definitely do the mystery shopper thing occasionally since we don't have anything like an internal affairs to check up on people's ability to be in roles)

It's not fixable with game code changes. The game needs a culture shift away from IMs and DMs (I agree with the staff decision on this, but it needs to be for players too so new players aren't being manipulated by abusive people trying to find out who their character is and bringing them into their circles of corruption, it's literally grooming) -- and there needs to be temporary reports instead of forever BECAUSE PEOPLE NEED TO FEEL SAFER TO REPORT THINGS OR YOU END UP WITH NOT HAVING ANY IDEA WHAT PEOPLE ARE DOING), and shady companies like Discord . It needs to make people feel confident and safe to report stuff, not in messages being logged forever that eventually get leaked or seen by someone that gains a position of power they probably shouldn't have been given.

That is why no one wants to play in cities. Because a lot of the older players contribute a NET LOSS in terms of damage to the game, and haven't been helping but just making things worse. If people start focusing less on their groups and more on the game as a whole, things can still get better.



I still believe it's fixable, though. But this is not the way. This would help too (last time I repost it I swear ) But I remember I suggested something like this before and I think a lot of stuff was just not taken as seriously or as important compared to other priorities at the time probably:

for taverns, "mix"/"mingle":

You take a while to look around, assessing the crowd:(this takes a while, so people don't just walk in, check, then leave)
There's always people around, but it seems pretty busy right now. Though people say it was busier a few hours ago. (OOC: 4 player characters are or were here within the last 10 minutes, 6 during last 30 minutes, 9 this past Zalanthan day)
(while avoiding people on opt-out/in stealth)

[BadSkeelz]

Clearly we should ban everyone who started playing before 2019.

[sleepyhead]

tiny rainbow, I have heard your idea, and just like you've heard mine and dislike them, I personally think your idea would accomplish absolutely nothing whatsoever, except for occasionally making people feel like they just missed out on RP. I made this thread to discuss ideas, and you have repeatedly presented yours. While I'm okay with you passionately nixing all the suggestions that I think would make any positive change at all, there's a point at which your objections stop being helpful and start repeatedly derailing the conversation. You've said your piece, we know how you feel, we know your idea. Nothing new can really be suggested or fine-tuned if you keep making the conversation all about how this will or won't ruin the game or how this game is better than that game. All I want is concrete solutions, and respectfully, your objections have been heard, and you're now just forcing the conversation away from those solutions and how they might be tailored to this game and this playerbase.

I'm not trying to tell you to get off the thread, but please stop using every opportunity to turn the conversation into something it was never meant to be.

EDIT: this is Beethoven. I meant to post on that account. same person

[LindseyBalboa]

if I did know that there were 4 other people in public rooms not hidden in Allanak, I would probably be more likely to go

But as mentioned before, part of the problem is exactly that you would go, that you would go there, instead of anywhere else - you'd have got a false impression, and passed up other characters that can't participate in this system because as mentioned before and the examples given of people acting very differently when they know other players is around (it's the same issues around making staff visible).

That's a great idea. Where can only be used to see people in your local region. Double it and pass it on.

Before any of this I would first suggest something intermediate and easy to implement - like a recruiting board for new characters, timezone info on clan pay when making a char, localization of characters when making a char, etc. More information given when planning out what to make and where to play.

At one point the Arm of the Dragon were advertising their playtimes on the IC rumor board, but I don't think that kind of info should be available OOC, it seemed silly because it was basically saying "Hi, Allanak is unmonitored outside these times, go wild". It's probably just better to keep selection blind so there's no OOC influence in decisions

there are 31 open clans, at least, not counting any player clans. There are 20 people logged on currently. I would like to put forward the notion that if a player, knowing that the Arm of the Dragon currently mostly plays from 6pm-9pm EST, changes their behavior drastically or 'goes nuts' when they think there aren't any players around... those aren't the players who should be playing this game. And it is a game. A roleplaying game. Based on a tabletop. People only act as trustworthy as they are allowed to be. Transparency breeds a positive, trusting community.

Clearly we should ban everyone who started playing before 2019.

lol

[Brytta Léofa]

This is how they do it on Harshlands:
...
> notify (This returns "Notifyee is online")
> notify back (This returns "Notifyee is online" to the notifier)
> notify area (This returns your sdesc and room to the notifier)

Hey, nobody discussed this at all. Obviously it's a much more radical change than expanding who. Intriguing, though.

Could be abused, but less so than Discord DMs.

[MarshallDFX]

Mansa's refinement is cool. The tavern only option is cool. Mudmail is cool. I think I'm just in the camp of "do things" rather than not.

[Pariah]

Way voicemail...  Hear me out.

contact homeboy
You feel your homeboy's mind, but it's sluggish.
Psi Hey bro, you hear they killed Gizzard from down at the pub?  It's crazy bro!
You feel like your message was received by their mind

Homeboy logs in
You feel thoughts awaiting your attention.
PSI
TheBroDude sent Hey bro, you hear they killed Gizzard from down at the pub? It's crazy bro!"

[Synthesis]

Way voicemail...  Hear me out.

contact homeboy
You feel your homeboy's mind, but it's sluggish.
Psi Hey bro, you hear they killed Gizzard from down at the pub?  It's crazy bro!
You feel like your message was received by their mind

Homeboy logs in
You feel thoughts awaiting your attention.
PSI
TheBroDude sent Hey bro, you hear they killed Gizzard from down at the pub? It's crazy bro!"

Something along these lines has been suggested numerous times over the years, and it's always been shot down.  Maybe this time will be different.

[Seeker]

Way voicemail...  Hear me out.

contact homeboy
You feel your homeboy's mind, but it's sluggish.
Psi Hey bro, you hear they killed Gizzard from down at the pub?  It's crazy bro!
You feel like your message was received by their mind

Homeboy logs in
You feel thoughts awaiting your attention.
PSI
TheBroDude sent Hey bro, you hear they killed Gizzard from down at the pub? It's crazy bro!"

Something along these lines has been suggested numerous times over the years, and it's always been shot down.  Maybe this time will be different.

The only objections I've heard that I agreed with are:
  1). It might provide confirmation that Amos is not online instead of just barriered up and might lead to OOC hijinks.
  2).  Sometimes you don't want to get messages from certain people, and therefore when you are online, you are actively barriering up to avoid them.  "Hello, this is Lord Templar Amos. Contact me withing three weeks or I will start exacting my displeasure upon your underlings.".
  3) Might especially suck for Merchant PCs, "Hey, where's my Horror Armor?!  I've been asking for my order for a month, twice a week.  I'm complaining to your boss and Lord Templar Amos for ignoring me, next."
  4) It removes the ability to overhear or Way-drop in on such messages and can move anything shared this way out of IG interactions. "Remember: it goes down next week.  And the target is Drucella this time.  The tressy-tressed man with tresses."

#4 is the one that seems the hardest to swallow.  There might be other objections, but I tend to think the positives outweigh those negatives. Particularly when focusing on retention and n00b engagement.

[Cordon]

I am all for this 'leave a message ability' Keeping in mind people's personal time and desire to RP this would help a lot of PC's out in leadership rolls with recruiting and work as well.

[Armaddict]

Way voicemail...  Hear me out.

contact homeboy
You feel your homeboy's mind, but it's sluggish.
Psi Hey bro, you hear they killed Gizzard from down at the pub?  It's crazy bro!
You feel like your message was received by their mind

Homeboy logs in
You feel thoughts awaiting your attention.
PSI
TheBroDude sent Hey bro, you hear they killed Gizzard from down at the pub? It's crazy bro!"

Something along these lines has been suggested numerous times over the years, and it's always been shot down.  Maybe this time will be different.

The only objections I've heard that I agreed with are:
  1). It might provide confirmation that Amos is not online instead of just barriered up and might lead to OOC hijinks.
  2).  Sometimes you don't want to get messages from certain people, and therefore when you are online, you are actively barriering up to avoid them.  "Hello, this is Lord Templar Amos. Contact me withing three weeks or I will start exacting my displeasure upon your underlings.".
  3) Might especially suck for Merchant PCs, "Hey, where's my Horror Armor?!  I've been asking for my order for a month, twice a week.  I'm complaining to your boss and Lord Templar Amos for ignoring me, next."
  4) It removes the ability to overhear or Way-drop in on such messages and can move anything shared this way out of IG interactions. "Remember: it goes down next week.  And the target is Drucella this time.  The tressy-tressed man with tresses."

#4 is the one that seems the hardest to swallow.  There might be other objections, but I tend to think the positives outweigh those negatives. Particularly when focusing on retention and n00b engagement.

This is what I mean by acknowledging downsides and being intellectually honest on things.  This is an odd issue for me.  I like interaction.  I like playing with pretty much anyone (just about any roleplayer in arm has the potential to suddenly be kickass in your mind as you play with them more).  But I also like immersion.  I like having to take actions to find people who may not want to be found.  I like when there are strains on communication that have to be worked through, because they create situations that have to be problem-solved in game.  The search for people was always an immersive experience for me.  So was the avoidance of being found.

No changes that we make will be purely beneficial.  Not a one of them.  Weighing out pros and cons via each player's self-customized priority list is the challenge of creating meaningful changes.  Most of the time, I end up resistant to change just because I don't observe a necessary amount of inspection of those cons, or sometimes even a flat-out denial that the cons are there, which only makes me more worried for what they will actually be.

I think the who modification with a toggle is probably the 'safest'.  Direct notifications seem preeeeetty easily counterweighted with cons.  And I'm still of the firm belief that players taking the onus that 'I want interaction' = wait in interaction areas is still best, because it's a culture shift that naturally consolidates rather than consolidation under direction/closure, and it's a spillover of proximity that results in more natural parallels and conflicts between people's paths.  People just like to be spread out doing their own thing too much.  I mean...sure, it's safer to be just doing your own thing, distant from power structures that aren't yours, etc, but it ain't really helping anyone or even yourself in finding non-engineered, natural interaction, either.

[nauta]

- remove the line "there are X players, other than yourself" from who output.

- implement something like the suggestion above from Mansa(?): if a character is in a "hotspot" area (room with a Tavern flag?) and they "toggle whovis on", then "who" will include them in the total number for that area, e.g., "There are X players whovisible in the Gaj."

- maybe use words rather than precise numbers: there are no|a few|many|a whole heckuva lot players whovisible in the Gaj.

- only allow characters who have under X hours played to see this information (where X is something suitable for getting your new character connected to a job. I dunno, 40 hours?) <b>This solves a lot of worries about cheating. It is a tool for new characters to make connections after chargen. That's that.</b>

- at chargen before point allow someone to see a more detailed "who" output that lists number of players in each of the main areas, along with who is staffing that area, e.g.:

There are 7 players online in the Northern Area - Usiku (admin), Caverin, Enthemu
(Utep Sun Legions, Tuluki Templars, Tuluki Noble Houses, Bards of the Poets Circle,Akai Sjir). If feeling fancy, maybe even: over the past week there have been X players in the Northern Area... If feeling *really* fancy: over the past week there have been X players in the Northern Area, 40% of whom are EST; 40% CST; 40% PST; 40% "European"; 20% that guy in Hawaii.

This last would be a tool for new players to decide where to point.