Facilitating finding RP with a small playerbase

[Beethoven]

Ever since Arm's population started decreasing noticeably, there has always been a sense of denial about it. People tended to blame the season, or various RL current events, or whatever. Of course there have always been hills and valleys, so I can understand why people didn't want to accept that numbers were on the decline and not getting any better. But I think it's clear by now that the small playerbase we have right now is, at least for the time being, an inescapable reality.

Obviously, the issues people have with staff right now are a big part of the unusually low numbers, but at the same time, it becomes a vicious cycle at this point. It's hard to be able to honestly encourage returning players or newbies to play the game when it tends to be such a lonely experience. People don't want to have to be the change; they just want to hop in and have a good time. But everything feels dead.

It used to be that you could walk into the Gaj and there'd be half a dozen people there, but now you're lucky if you find one or two all RL day. And people just log off when they see there's no one in the regular meeting spots, because they don't feel like idling away the day, getting hungrier and thirstier, in hopes that maybe one random person will be interested in a scene. Now we have to face the fact that it isn't like that anymore, and we aren't just a temporarily inconvenienced 70+ player game. We're an actual low-population community and we need to face that and make changes based on that.

But we don't have to just wait for the players to come back -- because they won't; not on their own, not when the experience is this...well, let's just be honest. When the experience is this dull and isolating. There are tools that could be implemented that would actually make the game feel alive again, even with the tiny playerbase we can currently count on. Here are some things that could be implemented, though I'm sure there are many more:

- Being able to manually flag your location as visible to attract RP
- Certain hot spots broadcasting their population
- Offline psi

Some or all of these can be abused, yes, but I'm not worried about that right now. I honestly am not. I'm far, far more worried that this game is going to slowly die. The only people left will be the ones who want to play it as a single-player Elder Scrolls-type experience, and then they'll eventually leave too.

In my opinion, this needs to be among the TOP PRIORITIES. Not that I'm anyone with authority or clout, but as a simple player, I would beseech staff to pay close attention to this issue, because this problem is only going to get worse if we don't address it, and then there will be no fixing it. Because at that point it will be too late, as no amount of these changes will make a game with a peak count of 5 feel anything but empty. We are still built like a 70+ peak game and we are just not anymore. Maybe one day we could be. Maybe not. But it's never going to happen when I can't even honestly promise anyone that playing here will be fun and rewarding and that they'll get RP.

If you have more suggestions on how we could make the low player count experience better, please post them here. And staff, I would urge you to put this on your radar ASAP. This game is very important to me and I do want to see it thrive again. I do think there is a way forward.

[tiny rainbow]

Your hunger and thirst already doesn't go down when idle for a long time --  You can idle in the tavern and don't worry

The game DOES need a "keep alive" option to silently send new lines now and then though, as sometimes it can silently disconnect sometimes

(even on clients with KeepAlive, this is apparently a thing because of changes in internet hardware since the mud was made and a known issue with telnet)


Having a where option would probably mean more people would never walk out estate/wagon/clan HQ since people would check that instead of going to look around (and this also prejudices against sneaky characters waiting for RP which a lot of the time is not killing and just intrigue!)

[Tranquil]

Totally agree.

The game has lower pop, and instead of everyone moping about it and feeling it harsh, some quick & easy OOC rp-finding mechanics could be added in and I guarantee the game would be feeling more active and accessible then it was with 50~ player pops.

If the staff want inspiration for a solid system from a sister MUD that's been up as long, if not longer then Arm, look to HL. They have been very low pop for over 20 years, and so they adapted to it and they still had a fun MUD even with 5-10 players on.

What they have is 2 simple mechanics. They have MUDmail that can be used in an OOC or IC fashion, and they have a who list of characters that you can opt in or out on with 'set available'. If you're shown on the who list and you're sitting somewhere you want to RP in, you type 'set location'. What this does is add the room name after your character's sdesc in the who-list.

For example:
>who
---
There is 27 players online.

Available Characters:
the tall, average man (Gladiator & Gaj Tavern)
the short elf
the tressy aide (Arboretum)
the stone-like dwarf
the kadian merchant (Gladiator & Gaj Tavern)
---

It's unbelievably simple and very efficient. I had trouble finding RP even when the game had 50~ players on, and this type of change would make the game much more active then those times.

And let's be frank. The downsides are miniscule, and not worth killing the game over holding staunchly to the archaic idea of absolutely no RP aids.

[Beethoven]

EDIT: Wanted to make clear this was a response to tiny rainbow:

As for the hunger and thirst, you're right -- but what I call idling isn't always being wholly in another window. Sometimes I'm still checking who, trying to contact people, etc. Maybe 'idling' isn't the word for that. Just being stationary?

These ideas MAY make some kinds of encounters more unlikely to happen, or some roles more awkward, but I doubt it, mostly because people are probably pretty eager to find each other right now and I doubt they'll use these tools to avoid each other. There may have been a time when those were very important objections, but right now I don't see those concerns being a good enough reason to just...watch people slowly give up on even finding RP. The only people left are the people who are really, really dedicated to TRYING to get it going again.

Again, these suggestions may make some things harder or more awkward. A sad truth, to be sure, but I'm firmly in the camp that something needs to be done. I don't think the way it is now is working very well anymore. Do you?

[Malken]

This is how they do it on Harshlands:

Use this command to let another player character (PC) you are
familiar with, or other clan members, know that you are online
and looking for roleplay. The notify command will cause the user's
terminal to issue a system beep to catch their attention if they
are in a different window or otherwise away from the keys.
(If you find the beeps distracting, you may toggle them on and off
using the '#6set mute#0' command.)

You may notify a PC by their name, or by all or a part of their short
description. ALL online PCs matching your criteria will be
notified, so be as specific as possible.

Syntax:
> notify Revus
> notify silver-haired, sapphirine-eyed man
> notify silver
(this would notify the last PC to log into Harshlands
with 'silver' anywhere in their short description)
> notify Tashal City

NOTE: You must type a clan name EXACTLY as you see it in clan
with the exact capitalization in order to work properly.
It is case sensitive.

The same command is used to respond to a notify sent to you or
your clan, to let the notifier know that you are online and ready
to engage in roleplay. To do this, simply type notify without any
extra arguments to the command.

If you want the notifier to see your short description in your notify
response use notify back.

If you want the notifier to see your short description and the room
name you are in currently use notify area.

Syntax:
> notify (This returns "Notifyee is online")
> notify back (This returns "Notifyee is online" to the notifier)
> notify area (This returns your sdesc and room to the notifier)

GENERAL NOTES:
The notify command does not stack. If multiple people notify
your reply will be sent to the last notifier.
However you can have a Clan Notify and Personal Notify on you so you may
need to Notify back multiple times to clear both from your character.

Notify does not expire. And can be left/ignored until you log
off or position yourself where you are avaliable to roleplay.
With consideration to note 1.

The set command has two other valuable ways to help find and be found by
other PCs: set available and set location

[Kavrick]

100% Agree, I did a big write up about some ideas in another thread here too: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,59100.0.html Rather than just repeating myself, but a +1 for sure

[tiny rainbow]

I think this would be a horrible thing to do and make the game feel much more OOC, those other games don't have the secrecy element so it doesn't really matter since they don't have anything worthwhile to be interested in, but with Armageddon a lot of the time there's characters that can't idle in taverns without being killed, or can't identify themselves by using the Way when giving interesting information that can lead to fun plot points you wouldn't hear otherwise (though this is also a good reason to keep hoods down in the city if you're waiting around for RP, sometimes a character might way still if they aren't comfortable hanging out)

It'd mean people would just sit around checking who, and less likely to be the first to go look (and then sit down instead of walking all the way back straight away)

Maybe just specify taverns as having greatly slowed down food/thirst like was done during some of the big RP events

[Beethoven]

I think this would be a horrible thing to do and make the game feel much more OOC, those other games don't have the secrecy element so it doesn't really matter since they don't have anything worthwhile to be interested in, but with Armageddon a lot of the time there's characters that can't idle in taverns without being killed, or can't identify themselves by using the Way when giving interesting information that can lead to fun plot points you wouldn't hear otherwise (though this is also a good reason to keep hoods down in the city if you're waiting around for RP, sometimes a character might way still if they aren't comfortable hanging out)

Maybe just specify taverns as having greatly slowed down food/thirst like was done during some of the big RP events

The food/thirst thing is the least of my problems. Forget I even mentioned that. I really don't care all that much, it's a money sink anyway and those are good. Let the game feel a little more OOC. I'd take that over watching its death rattle any day.

Not everyone has to be identified just because it automatically says there are 3 people in the Gaj; it's totally opt-in if you want you yourself to be identified by sdesc or whatever. If you enter a hot spot, the number may tick up, but it won't say who it is. And there's no reason you'd have to use those tools if you didn't want to.

The only horrible thing to do on this front that I can imagine is nothing. I don't know where you're playing or when you're playing that you think that the biggest problem we might have is the game feeling a bit OOC with its mechanics. The cities are empty, the clans are empty, and people are writing rumors just to announce that they exist.

[Malken]

those other games don't have the secrecy element so it doesn't really matter since they don't have anything worthwhile to be interested in, but with Armageddon a lot of the time

That's pretty rude and wrong.

[Fawcett]

HL does infact have huge secrecy, I'd argue almost more then Arm. There are forbidden dark faiths that skulk around, there's the thieves guild that has 9~ characters in it, and if anything, these mechanics help improve their gameplay then if there wasn't these mechanics.

[tiny rainbow]

Here's a log from July 5 2019

The Storm's End Spice Den [N, S, W, U]
At a black silk pillow, you overhear the swarthy, dark-bearded man say in tribal-accented sirihish:
     "I was there to appreciate and nearly bid for the Drov piece.. I've seen your talent."
At a black silk pillow, you overhear the dusky, feline-eyed woman say in an unfamiliar tongue, settling back into the pillow again with a grin:
     "oqatu oia. m'vq pyljiyu il re oyreny, oitge omo'uc eu qyaos mna mehlmimoeom ul lyna."
Reconnecting...
Reconnected.
You notice: The swarthy, dark-bearded man's eyes flicker from a brief, distant look, back to the dusky, feline-eyed woman.
You notice: The dusky, feline-eyed woman's gaze searches over the draperies above as she looks away from the swarthy, dark-bearded man.

These players were literally reacting to the OOC message of Someone has reconnected. I know at least one of them absolutely knew better, but part of the problem is having "roleplay is required" in the rules is very vague and messages like that should have on the end to make it clear, so people can't abuse gray areas: (OOC, do not respond to)

Letting people know "There is one person here" but not seeing any PCs IC (so knowing OOC there is someone hiding) would be terrible, some people would absolutely start acting strangely to avoid interaction, or running off even (even for people that say they wouldn't, knowing stuff like that can prejudice people's actions unconsciously, this is just one of those unavoidable human nature things)

And if it DIDN'T say there is that extra person hiding, some people would just not go to the tavern at all, because it doesn't say there's people there.



One thing also to consider though is that it also can be bad for RP if there's one person staring around/ logging all chat and all Sdescs that go in and out of the tavern (I've seen some people do this at city gates even, which feels really unfair since it's frowned upon to take action against AFK/linkdead characters) and make people avoid that tavern if there's someone idle bot-logging everyone that goes in/every conversation


I think a lot of people stopped playing in cities because there's some players in powerful roles that are absolutely cheating, I hope that changes but probably a lot of people are waiting for stories of some people being caught and the rot being excised, even before the recent drama Luir's has been busier for a long time now




Maybe what would be good is if there was a heat-map style thing that says instead, when you enter the tavern- you do a sort of thing like Hunt but only for taverns, "mix"/"mingle":

You take a while to look around, assessing the crowd:(this takes a while, so people don't just walk in, check, then leave)
There's always people around, but it seems pretty busy right now. Though people say it was busier a few hours ago. (OOC: 4 player characters are or were here within the last 10 minutes, 6 during last 30 minutes, 9 this past Zalanthan day)
(while avoiding people on opt-out/in stealth)

[Beethoven]

First of all, it would be easy enough to make hidden characters not tick up the count. That's how it works in most of these games, as far as I know.

Second of all, I am still in favor of it even if someone exploits OOC information sometimes. Let the game get over its death throes, at least, before we double down on our famous Armageddon purism. By all means, take out these mechanics once we no longer need them. That is, IF we ever get to the point that we no longer need them, which I think is a pipe dream at this point. But this, right now -- this is about saving the game from the brink. And I don't think that's a melodramatic statement. It's the honest, realistic truth.

[tiny rainbow]

Yeah but already went over that it would stop people coming to RP with the hidden people if that became the new standard of checking where is active, because if they know "no one" is there, it's one of those endless design problems that no one usually wants to be the first one to wait around, there'd be more hiding away and waiting for an OOC message to pop up

I think the idea I put at the end could be a good compromise anyway

[Beethoven]

People will have plenty of reasons to be elsewhere than the most populated room. Lots of people hate tavern-sitting anyway, and have plenty of reasons to go elsewhere, whether they choose to advertise their locations or not. I don't think your idea does much, tiny rainbow. It might have been a cool little feature at one time, but it isn't very useful now. There needs to be a system in place that can, at the very least, guarantee new/returning players that they will be able to get some kind of RP if they play Armageddon. That is the bare minimum, and we are falling short of that bare minimum. How can you ever expect it to get better when that is the case?

[mansa]

I like the idea of the game displaying where some of the players in the game are.
The big question is:
How much is shared?


I think my current parameters are:
No names, no short descriptions.

I would like it split up into zones, much like other games do.  Here's an example:

>who
Immortals:
---------

There are 0 visible Immortals currently in the world.

There are 38 players currently in the world, other than yourself.
---------
Zones:

There are 8 players in Allanak, Labyrinth & the Vrun Driath area
There are 6 players in Tuluk & the Gol Krathu area
There are 4 players in Luir's Outpost & surrounding area
There are 3 players in Red Storm & surrounding area
There are 8 players in the Tablelands area
There are 9 players elsewhere in the known

[Halaster]

I like mansa's version of it the best, personally, in terms of the 'where' command.

I also felt the need to do the math and made sure he properly added up the numbers.

[dumbstruck]

I like the idea of the game displaying where some of the players in the game are.
The big question is:
How much is shared?


I think my current parameters are:
No names, no short descriptions.

I would like it split up into zones, much like other games do.  Here's an example:

>who
Immortals:
---------

There are 0 visible Immortals currently in the world.

There are 38 players currently in the world, other than yourself.
---------
Zones:

There are 8 players in Allanak, Labyrinth & the Vrun Driath area
There are 6 players in Tuluk & the Gol Krathu area
There are 4 players in Luir's Outpost & surrounding area
There are 3 players in Red Storm & surrounding area
There are 8 players in the Tablelands area
There are 9 players elsewhere in the known

I liked the options that EoE had. You could use 'someone' rather than a sdesc, or you could show your sdesc (handy for sponsored roles or people who are looking for employers), and you could just choose if you showed as part of it as not on the where. If you weren't on where, you weren't shown, if you chose to be shown, it showed the room, which could be in taverns, or whatever room you choose.

So you could see something like:

You see 8 people other than yourself.

The chiseled, onyx-streaked lass is at the Storm's End.
Someone's at the Storm's End.
Someone's in the Gaj and Gladiator.
Someone is at <Whatever the sdesc of the room desc for The Gem in the Pah is>.

Just, as an example.

[flurry]

I like Mansa's suggestion, but at the same time I'm not sure if it's a good idea for the game to let someone know they're the only active player in a particular population center.

edit: Maybe if it's below a certain threshold it just says "There are fewer than x people in..."

[Halaster]

What if it used the new Tavern flag, and showed you how many people were in each tavern?



>where
Immortals:
---------

There are 0 visible Immortals currently in the world.

There are 38 players currently in the world, other than yourself.
---------
Zones:

There are 4 players in the Gladiator and the Gaj
There are 6 players in The Storm's End

[CirclelessBard]

What if it used the new Tavern flag, and showed you how many people were in each tavern?



>where
Immortals:
---------

There are 0 visible Immortals currently in the world.

There are 38 players currently in the world, other than yourself.
---------
Zones:

There are 4 players in the Gladiator and the Gaj
There are 6 players in The Storm's End

This is a good idea.

A lot of games actually do a variation of this already, but they usually flag rooms as "public" and anyone that is visible (or not trying to be invisible) in those rooms is counted. Can easily be applied to taverns, as well as other common gathering RP spots. You could even have clan-only spots so that someone in the Byn, for example, can "who" and see how many people are in the mess hall or something.

[Tranquil]

What if it used the new Tavern flag, and showed you how many people were in each tavern?



>where
Immortals:
---------

There are 0 visible Immortals currently in the world.

There are 38 players currently in the world, other than yourself.
---------
Zones:

There are 4 players in the Gladiator and the Gaj
There are 6 players in The Storm's End

This'd be solid, and expanded on easily if need be.

[tiny rainbow]

That'd be terrible for the game though - There's been new players that came from other MUDs recently, talking about serious problems can't even be mentioned here - but people play here because it offers something different from everything else. If we start taking that away, it dilutes the sense of mystery and adventure Armageddon has:

The idea of having a quick way to OOC check which areas are active without doing any IC travelling would not help people not playing Templar-aligned characters at all:
If people see that there are no people in the tavern and so don't go there, everyone is missing out on RP opportunities constantly, it'll be much worse for a lot of players, while only helping one side. Game changes need to help everyone.

A lot of the time those "antagonist" characters are just more neutral, and it's the city type characters that are antagonistic to them (e.g. death if caught) - aren't even out to kill or steal or hurt, just for fun politics RP (that helps increase RP in both cities even!). Seriously. Think about someone like Little jozhal, I can count one one hand characters stolen from or killed! And facilitated a lot of RP and plots between both cities. Before the way change, if there was something, even an emote, that made someone suspicious, I sometimes used to get people, including sponsored role merchant characters, sometimes using contact to see if it says "Someone" (before the change, it would show that if someone was hiding). Code supporting people equally when possible instead of only relying on staff to punish, is usually better that way, and avoids a lot of drama too.

I don't mind the idea, but I think you should have to travel to the room first to see if people have been around recently.

Like this:

sort of thing like Hunt but only for taverns, "mix"/"mingle":

You take a while to look around, assessing the crowd:(this takes a while, so people don't just walk in, check, then leave)
There's always people around, but it seems pretty busy right now. Though people say it was busier a few hours ago. (OOC: 4 player characters are or were here within the last 10 minutes, 6 during last 30 minutes, 9 this past Zalanthan day)
(while avoiding people on opt-out/in stealth)

[Kavrick]

What if it used the new Tavern flag, and showed you how many people were in each tavern?



>where
Immortals:
---------

There are 0 visible Immortals currently in the world.

There are 38 players currently in the world, other than yourself.
---------
Zones:

There are 4 players in the Gladiator and the Gaj
There are 6 players in The Storm's End

This would be really good idea, I do also think an option to advertise your character name or some sort of way to allow people who don't know you to way you. The main issue I've had with trying to find people in game is both well... Finding them in the first place, and waying them. Going through your entire contact list waying every single person hoping you get a hit is far from ideal, especially when sometimes contact fails without you knowing it. Just something people can opt-into if they want to find people, if it's opt-in, I cant imagine there being any issues with it.

[DesertT]

I can see the allure of knowing what areas people are playing in.

I honestly think that would be something to know at chargen.

If I knew which clans were popping with activity, I'd be more inclined to play in those clans.

If you tell me Allanak is popping with activity, that could mean a few things.  The Gemmed (who are allowed limited positive interaction), the Byn (who rely heavily on an active leader), the AoD (also relatively depended upon an active leader), the Nobility (who rely on Aides and others), Merchant Families (who rely on local consumers), the Rinth (east side who rely on a PC population), the Rinth (west side who also rely on a PC population), and Independents (who are the recipients of the aforementioned's interactions).

If I roll a spec app for a Byn Trooper and then find out that the Byn in Allanak is dead and the activity I saw for Allanak was all Gemmed, well then... Crap!!  I can't recruit to the Byn as a Trooper.  I shouldn't be riding out alone.  There's nobody to spar with...  Sure glad I rolled a combat character with little to combat.

This is the same for an AoD member or someone rolling a rinther or even an independent.

Maybe someone could update a weekly roster of which clans have activity AND which clans are actively recruiting.  It'd be nice to see some of those IG recruiting rumours put onto the GDB somewhere.

[Beethoven]

I like Halaster's idea to start. I think that was kind of what I was getting at earlier with the "hot spots" thing. They wouldn't all have to be taverns, although if that's an easy way to do it because of the flag, that's cool too. I do think we may need more dramatic measures to save us from bleeding out playerwise, but we can start with that for sure!

For old-schoolers who are concerned that it's all a bit too OOC for our immersive game, what about an IC or quasi-IC mechanic? Stand in a room that's flagged as populated, and drop a command like 'query' or even 'ask around'. It could return certain PUBLIC areas (noble and templar quarters excluded, of course) where there is more than one PC gathered. Nowhere sneaky, no dark alleys, no weird side streets, no clan compounds, just areas that are flagged as potential meeting areas for the general public.

You listen to the chatter, and learn of some lively areas in town:

The Gladiator and the Gaj Tavern -- Main Room
The Red's Retreat -- Antechamber
Meleth's Circle

It's not perfect. For one thing, yes, NPCs and VNPCs are people, too. But I think we can assume that they tend to go where the PC's go, as well. If people are really that put off by a 'where' sort of command, this could be a way to flavor it IC.