Movement, blind spots and enemy reaction times.

[Kavrick]

This is something i'm going to be stubborn on. Making it so enemies are invisible to you until you bump right into them when they're the size of a horse or even a building isn't 'part and parcel'. I'm fine with the game being dangerous, I'm fine with the world being hostile. But having this displayed through clunky and unintuitive systems isn't the best. Even if this comes down to me being 'new'. I've actually never died to this problem, it's just a very blatant problem that could be fixed with a few tweaks. I never said tapping alias isn't practical, I said that having to walk back and forth, trying to catch every angle with your look command so you can catch your blind spots isn't practical in the long run.

Make the game dangerous, make enemies that track you to find you, make enemies with venom and make enemies that are incredibly aggressive. But giving enemies impossible to match AI reaction times and being invisible until you walk right into them isn't the best way to display that, in my opinion.

Be stubborn, there's a delay when they walk into a room and you can leave, your mount is almost certainly as fast or faster than them.  The wilderness isn't *actually* a flat plane in most places, so think of weaving now and then as your character riding to catch a look around enormous sand dunes and other obstacles that something might be lurking behind. 

There is no impossible to match AI reaction time, there's a delay when they walk in, as has been mentioned.  They walk in and you have a solid few seconds to react - mount up, tap 's' or 'e' or 'flee self', react to a dangerous creature you spy approaching you that is unable to attack you for a little bit.  The game does demand some level of attentiveness and reaction time if you'd like to be a wilderness hunter.

Do you use a screen reader?  If so please reach out via DMs, I know blind players have thrived on Armageddon, and I can help you set up your client to beep at you when something walks into the same room so you can have a faster warning.

I'm not blind but one thing I'll say is that there isn't a delay when they walk in, there's a delaye after they walk in, which is a big difference as it means they'll start chasing you the moment they see you. Rather than there being a delay before they start chasing you.

[Kavrick]

Reguarding Brokkr's comment about carru v. beetle speed.

Aggros are almost always "run"ning when they come after you. You can't run a mount very far at all.

So if a carru and a beetle have the same speed, you are walking your beetle, and the carru is running, then they aren't going the same speed.

Some of them accurately RUN into the room, sometimes they just walk in, but they walk like a senior citizen five hours before the mall opens, FAST.

The other issue is that creatures regenerate at STUPID high levels, I've walked in on an exhausted critter that spams the trying to run but is exhausted over and over.  I'll chill there for a minute and then they run off, they never sat down to rest, they in fact did the opposite and tried to break their neck running.  If critters had to recover like mounts do, then that would again be more of a fair exchange, but right now you can have a carru run ten rooms and hardly be tired, or if he is, by the time he ends up kill you his stamina is all the way back up.

On the note of enemy regen. I really think it needs to be looked at. Both enemy stamina regen and enemy health regen is absolutely overtuned. I recently found out that gurths regen health while they're in their shells and I'll see them go from profusely wounded to moderately wounded in 10-20 seconds. This is also a big deal when trying to hunt using ranged weapons, hitting an enemy with a ranged weapon doesn't seem to stop their health regen, so enemies will constantly regen health while trying to doing bow/sling/crossbow hunting which isn't very enjoyable.

[Brokkr]

A carru and a beetle mount have the same speeds.  So if your mount is running, it will be the same speed as the carru.  Obviously a mismatch if you are not running and it is, and that does lower the amount of wait state they get before they can attack.  But that isn't your mount being slower than a carru.  Running, it is the same speed.

And even as a player it was obvious that aggro NPCs moving into your room from an adjacent room depends on what part of the cycle time your movement happened.  That is, sometime you will move into a room and there will be an aggro NPC adjacent and there will be a noticeable amount of time before it moves into the room with you.  Sometimes enough to move on to the next room.  If you are able to move very fast, this becomes very noticeable.  So no, it isn't even instant every time.

[Brisket]

I'm not blind but one thing I'll say is that there isn't a delay when they walk in, there's a delaye after they walk in, which is a big difference as it means they'll start chasing you the moment they see you. Rather than there being a delay before they start chasing you.

Yes, you need to type 's' 'run' 's' 's' 's' 'e' 's' 'w' 's' 'e' and you'll almost certainly be safe.  There's a bit of a learning curve there, but zig zagging a little to evade a house-sized beast that just stood up from behind a sand dune and rushed you makes perfect sense to me.  Unless you're on a very slow mount, you can get away from most critters, and only a few chase you more than a few rooms if you don't just run in a straight line.  You'll also learn more where those beasts tend to be, which reduces the number of encounters (they can be led off their path) and helps your survivability.

[Kavrick]

I'm not blind but one thing I'll say is that there isn't a delay when they walk in, there's a delaye after they walk in, which is a big difference as it means they'll start chasing you the moment they see you. Rather than there being a delay before they start chasing you.

Yes, you need to type 's' 'run' 's' 's' 's' 'e' 's' 'w' 's' 'e' and you'll almost certainly be safe.  There's a bit of a learning curve there, but zig zagging a little to evade a house-sized beast that just stood up from behind a sand dune and rushed you makes perfect sense to me.  Unless you're on a very slow mount, you can get away from most critters, and only a few chase you more than a few rooms if you don't just run in a straight line.  You'll also learn more where those beasts tend to be, which reduces the number of encounters (they can be led off their path) and helps your survivability.

It's certainly doable, although I will say it makes less sense in areas that are described as 'flat plains'. Like I've said previously, it's never gotten me killed but I do find it to be rather undesirable clunk.

[Brisket]

It's certainly doable, although I will say it makes less sense in areas that are described as 'flat plains'. Like I've said previously, it's never gotten me killed but I do find it to be rather undesirable clunk.

Even very flat plains have places to duck out of sight, especially for predators native to those plains.  I suggest you zig zag a little and play your character's caution of the great outdoors as being just a little more serious.

[Veselka]

I would posit that while 'sight' is certainly explicable (albeit with some fuzzy logic) as 'behind some dunes' and 'over yon hill', I would venture that creatures over a certain size and weight should be both audible and visible from a distance.

The limitation is most certainly DIKU, not ArmageddonMUD per se, but still, it's a little...Odd...To defend what is a known code limitation. It is clunky. Other MU* run on different code allow for diagonal visibility and movement (!) but we are running Arm on Diku and I doubt that will change, ever.

Sure, we have what we have, that doesn't mean we can't wish for more realism and accuracy.

[Brisket]

I would posit that while 'sight' is certainly explicable (albeit with some fuzzy logic) as 'behind some dunes' and 'over yon hill', I would venture that creatures over a certain size and weight should be both audible and visible from a distance.

The limitation is most certainly DIKU, not ArmageddonMUD per se, but still, it's a little...Odd...To defend what is a known code limitation. It is clunky. Other MU* run on different code allow for diagonal visibility and movement (!) but we are running Arm on Diku and I doubt that will change, ever.

Sure, we have what we have, that doesn't mean we can't wish for more realism and accuracy.

I'm all in favor of some sort of sound related cues coming from larger creatures, I'm not so much defending it as I am offering alternative ways to view it to help the rp experience.

[Gunnerblaster]

Since I do not know how the NPC coding works for how they can identify enemies, I'm assuming they're doing the equivalent of a constant ">look north;>look east;>look south;>look west" or something along those lines. What if that process was slowed down to doing a "sweep" once every 10-15 seconds.

That way, it gives players an opportunity to at least react and try and ride away, if possible.

As it stands, wilderness/hostile NPC's are basically terminators who are on watch, all the time, every time.

[Brokkr]

How would any of those aggro NPCs kill any of you, with that long of a cycle?

[Brisket]

Since I do not know how the NPC coding works for how they can identify enemies, I'm assuming they're doing the equivalent of a constant ">look north;>look east;>look south;>look west" or something along those lines. What if that process was slowed down to doing a "sweep" once every 10-15 seconds.

That way, it gives players an opportunity to at least react and try and ride away, if possible.

As it stands, wilderness/hostile NPC's are basically terminators who are on watch, all the time, every time.

This is so absolutely untrue that the newbie who's been playing for 3 weeks has never died to it.

You can get away, just pay attention.

[Gunnerblaster]

Since I do not know how the NPC coding works for how they can identify enemies, I'm assuming they're doing the equivalent of a constant ">look north;>look east;>look south;>look west" or something along those lines. What if that process was slowed down to doing a "sweep" once every 10-15 seconds.

That way, it gives players an opportunity to at least react and try and ride away, if possible.

As it stands, wilderness/hostile NPC's are basically terminators who are on watch, all the time, every time.

This is so absolutely untrue that the newbie who's been playing for 3 weeks has never died to it.

You can get away, just pay attention.

Alright. Nice flex? I don't know what you're going for here.

My point is, it would be nice if there's some sort of cycle or delay on when an NPC detects you and when they react.

[Brisket]

Since I do not know how the NPC coding works for how they can identify enemies, I'm assuming they're doing the equivalent of a constant ">look north;>look east;>look south;>look west" or something along those lines. What if that process was slowed down to doing a "sweep" once every 10-15 seconds.

That way, it gives players an opportunity to at least react and try and ride away, if possible.

As it stands, wilderness/hostile NPC's are basically terminators who are on watch, all the time, every time.

This is so absolutely untrue that the newbie who's been playing for 3 weeks has never died to it.

You can get away, just pay attention.

Alright. Nice flex? I don't know what you're going for here.

My point is, it would be nice if there's some sort of cycle or delay on when an NPC detects you and when they react.

My 'flex'  was me telling you that you can get away.  The delay exists on movement when the NPC moves into the room with you.  It's plenty of time to stand, mount, and move in 85% of cases, and when it isn't, you can usually flee.  Your post said that they're like Terminators, and I guess they are because John Conner ended up alive and well to fight Skynet in every single movie.

[Veselka]

let's dial back the tone, we're all entitled to our opinions, no need to goad one another.

I agree with Brokkr, if we overly adjust NPCs like that, no one will die to them ever.

[Pariah]

Look at the delays on certain actions and that's the best way to get away.

[Pariah]

I don't remember the last time I died to a critter that wasn't an Ubercritter without some crazy bad luck.

It would be interesting if they ever showed stats of like a month to see how many people died to aggressive wildlife.

[Tailong]

As a purely combat oriented character, who has considerable playtime on his current, you can absolutely, 100%, get away and evade, with zero issues. There is a massive delay, and you can literally play with creatures, moving room to room at will. I have never had a mob enter my room running, that I couldnt either attack first, or simply move away. You might check your internet connections, or clients. Something is up.

[Veselka]

Yeah, there are Unexpected Things (tm) that happen that can take you out pretty quickly from NPCs in the Wilds, deadly combinations of poisons for example, but otherwise, with some care and attention (and a good internet connection that doesn't hiccup), it isn't impossible to get away from NPCs that chase you.

There are some NPCs that will continue to track you...It makes for an interesting cat and mouse game. I wish that happened more.

[Jimpka_Moss]

I'm fine with the game being dangerous, I'm fine with the world being hostile. But having this displayed through clunky and unintuitive systems isn't the best....

The world of Zalantahas is a hostile, dangerous place being displayed through a clunky and unintuitive system called Armageddon. It may not be possible for it to change in the way you want it to. Sooo many things about it, are unintuitive. I, personally enjoy this.

For instance, above, you were told how to best effectively spot your enemies from a side room. It is, indeed, practical in every aspect to this when you're hunting. Danger doesn't come from every direction, because every room you've seen to be empty, is, in fact, a room without danger. (sans failed hidden creatures, another reasons skills are important and keep game balance).


I understand your feeling that /something/ should compensate for the lack of ability to see in semi-cardinal directions, and Diku makes that difficult. I don't know HOW difficult it would be to make the wild_listen skill something that monitors those four invisible directions for creatures, but it could be a useful addition, and make Listen_wild greatly more valuable.

The reaction times are pretty realistically set for each creature on Zalanthas, and I'm someone who lags so much I once only got in two emotes during an RPT before it was over. I didn't die, because I was aware of my own limitations, and the ever present danger, and played my char as if they value their life as much as /I/ value my life. It's actually a very important part of RP that most people miss, when danger becomes ever present. (This might be getting a little ranty, and preachy, and I don't mean it to come off that way, I just enjoy it more when I add these aspects, and want to share that One Neat Trick with everyone).


There should be something done, eventually, with the coding powers we have or will gain. I'm not sure we can 'fix' it right now, but the reaction times are manageable when you know what you are hunting, why you are hunting it, and where you are hunting. Carru aren't everywhere, bahamets aren't everywhere, meks aren't everywhere.


It's been more than a year, but I got both that grebber, and that fucking scapegoat killed on purpose, it worked perfectly, and I nearly died three times. Worth it. Also, please make animals wander back to their homes eventually, OR, have wandering hunters/grebbers/npcs that could die and or fight it, to add even more realism, please.

TL:DR Diku is old, I don't know how to code it properly, reaction times and blind spots can be taught with izdari, and please support your local templarate by leading scrabs right into devotions./mild satire.


I'm sorry it's not working out, there are a variety of suggested workarounds, and a lot of culture has been built into the game that's been based off the standards for mobs we have now. I've played guides that scolded others for not 'looking around dunes' or checking 'bandit holes', years ago. I'm afraid of coming off as the 'We had to make do, you'll figure it out, bootstraps, blah blah blah' kind of boomer type voice people mock, but....

I mean...

Maybe let's look at Listen_Wild as an option for decreasing danger for those who are adept at surviving in the wilds. Especially with worms, bahamets, and mekillots, those noisy punks.

[Lutagar]

make sure you're riding an inix and not a beetle if you're exploring areas with big nasty beasts you need to escape quickly

[Case]

I could see a way to simulate diagonals without a significant remodelling of the code. It's not necessarily a good one, but it's relatively practical.

I assume the code uses graphs like DIKU.

In situations where:

a) 2 adjacent directions (any non N-S, E-W pair) are both visible and traversable by the PC
b) The rooms reached through a) lead to the same room when using the other direction of the pair, and both paths would be visible and traversable by the PC
c) The reverse is true (you can follow the algorithm from the target room back to the PC's current room)
d) All rooms involved are outdoors

For example:
PC can move N and E from a room.
The E from the N room and the N from the E room lead to the same room (the diagonal room).
From the diagonal room, the PC could move W and S, then S and W, and be back in the original room.



You could default to visibility of that diagonal room's contents, through look, or a separate scanning command which can list out all directions currently visible.
You could also potentially make it traversable by multiplying the move delay and associated costs by sqrt(2) (or 2x, to be punishing) when crossing the diagonal.
If it's undesired for building reasons in that location, flags can be added to block the behavior.

[Night Queen]

If you could see diagonally, everything else could too.

So things would be charging at you in room 1 already, instead of when going into room 2 (then would need a way to see through time, to see what is in the diagonal direction before the diagonal direction can be seen)

[Kavrick]

Honestly I know that movement/sight diagonals would be a nightmare, I care more about at least their being a delay on creatures spotting you, which is also realistic. As someone said in another thread, there's no real roleplay or immersion when it comes to hostile creatures, they're just robots that run at you and attack. Realistic creatures should give some sort of warning sign of you being in their terratory; growling, clicking of pincers, stuff like that.

[Pariah]

Honestly I know that movement/sight diagonals would be a nightmare, I care more about at least their being a delay on creatures spotting you, which is also realistic. As someone said in another thread, there's no real roleplay or immersion when it comes to hostile creatures, they're just robots that run at you and attack. Realistic creatures should give some sort of warning sign of you being in their terratory; growling, clicking of pincers, stuff like that.

Yeah this is sorta how I feel too.  Brokkr's response seems to me, to be, "But they kill you easier the way it works now." as if that's 100% the goal of them.  I don't know how I feel about that.

[Kavrick]

Honestly I know that movement/sight diagonals would be a nightmare, I care more about at least their being a delay on creatures spotting you, which is also realistic. As someone said in another thread, there's no real roleplay or immersion when it comes to hostile creatures, they're just robots that run at you and attack. Realistic creatures should give some sort of warning sign of you being in their terratory; growling, clicking of pincers, stuff like that.

Yeah this is sorta how I feel too.  Brokkr's response seems to me, to be, "But they kill you easier the way it works now." as if that's 100% the goal of them.  I don't know how I feel about that.

Yeah... I'm not really a huge fan of "it's like this because it's dangerous and we want things to be dangerous." I wanna say there's more nuance to how you can do it, danger can be fun and danger can be unfun, I consider this unfun.

If you wanna say the diagonal thing is a code limitation, that's fine and I can accept that. Animals just dont act like real animals in this game, especially when we were wanting it to be less hack and slash.