Movement, blind spots and enemy reaction times.

[Kavrick]

So I'll preface this with, "This might just come down to a skill issue but I do think it's something that negatively effects the game." But when it comes to playing wilderness characters, there's one main issue I bump into time and time again, and that is diagonal blindspots and enemy reaction time. If you move into a room one room away from another enemy, and that enemy is hostile (which is the majority of creatures in our fantasy australia), that enemy will instantly move into your space, before you even get a chance to use the look command and see that they're in the first place. This compounds the issue of a lack ways to check your blind spots, so you can look in all directions, but because an enemy is in your NE, the moment you think it's clear and move to the north or east, that creature will immediately catapult itself at your face.

This isn't a huge issue for some enemies, but especially for enemies around tuluk in particular, there are a lot of both fast, and extremely deadly (kryl, bahamet, carru, packs of gortoks), which can not only lead to a lot of player deaths, but also results in enemies being dragged out of their usual positions and closer to gates. I think if enemies had a longer delay on moving into your room, this would help both alleviate the issue of creatures not being where they're supposed to (which could be an intended feature, but I do wish they at least slowly wandered back to their original location) and quickly dying due to the need to wrestle with an inherently clunky text-based system (Again maybe a skill issue on my part, but as someone new to MUDs, typing in the perfectly right commands without typos to avoid my character's head being removed from it's shoulders by a carru when you're panicking can be extremely difficult).

[LidlessEye]

Aliases could help alleviate some of these problems. 

Other than that, I do concur that it would be nice if animals wandered back to their original location after awhile. In the past, people have lured dangerous animals closer to roads and gates, and it feels silly. I have personally experienced a situation where 3-4 mekillots (not all at once) were lured to the surroundings of Allanak over 2-3 weeks, more than a year ago, and it actually resulted in a PC's death (not mine) who was new and grebbing. The suspected culprit was ultimately slain, but not before a lot of damage was done.

[Kavrick]

Aliases could help alleviate some of these problems. 

Other than that, I do concur that it would be nice if animals wandered back to their original location after awhile. In the past, people have lured dangerous animals closer to roads and gates, and it feels silly. I have personally experienced a situation where 3-4 mekillots (not all at once) were lured to the surroundings of Allanak over 2-3 weeks, more than a year ago, and it actually resulted in a PC's death (not mine) who was new and grebbing. The suspected culprit was ultimately slain, but not before a lot of damage was done.

What aliases would you recommend? I use one for looking in all directions but i've had multiple situations where the enemy will go into my square before it even fires off.

And I do agree that I would much prefer creatures slowly wandering into their natural habitats. I've had at least two player deaths come from either massive swarms of creatures being somewhere that's normally safe, or an incredibly dangerous creature being right outside a gate and then having said gate shut on me because of the creature. (which is a gate behavior I both understand due to bahamets and also hate).

Zalanthas has an incredibly dangerous set of wildlife, which from someone who plays a lot of wilderness characters, I love. It makes the game exciting when it comes to exploration but I do also think that a level of predictabilty would both make sense, and be at least some sort of reprieve. No one likes walking two tile sout of a gate just for three kryl to be there for some reason.

[LidlessEye]

The mud has an inbuilt alias system. I have one for fleeing, fl (direction), and should I fall off, I also have aliases to mount up fast, aliases to draw weapons swiftly etc. I've never used any aliases outside the game.

[LidlessEye]

And I know this is only partially helpful, but when I've led combat RPTs, I'd have a soldier or two go parallel to the designated path, and look to see if there are any dangerous creatures diagonally.

A B
C D
E F

Suppose you were in E, and needed to go North through A, you could go F and look North.

[Kavrick]

And I know this is only partially helpful, but when I've led combat RPTs, I'd have a soldier or two go parallel to the designated path, and look to see if there are any dangerous creatures diagonally.

A B
C D
E F

Suppose you were in E, and needed to go North through A, you could go F and look North.

I'm aware that you can technically do this, but when you're in the open wilds, hunting every single day. It's not particularly practical to do this when danger can be in any direction.

[CalmThyPalm]

Aliases could help alleviate some of these problems. 

Other than that, I do concur that it would be nice if animals wandered back to their original location after awhile. In the past, people have lured dangerous animals closer to roads and gates, and it feels silly. I have personally experienced a situation where 3-4 mekillots (not all at once) were lured to the surroundings of Allanak over 2-3 weeks, more than a year ago, and it actually resulted in a PC's death (not mine) who was new and grebbing. The suspected culprit was ultimately slain, but not before a lot of damage was done.

What aliases would you recommend? I use one for looking in all directions but i've had multiple situations where the enemy will go into my square before it even fires off.

And I do agree that I would much prefer creatures slowly wandering into their natural habitats. I've had at least two player deaths come from either massive swarms of creatures being somewhere that's normally safe, or an incredibly dangerous creature being right outside a gate and then having said gate shut on me because of the creature. (which is a gate behavior I both understand due to bahamets and also hate).

Zalanthas has an incredibly dangerous set of wildlife, which from someone who plays a lot of wilderness characters, I love. It makes the game exciting when it comes to exploration but I do also think that a level of predictabilty would both make sense, and be at least some sort of reprieve. No one likes walking two tile sout of a gate just for three kryl to be there for some reason.

I'm no great player by any stretch of the imagination, but the aliases that help me lots to have an easier time keeping my PCs alive now versus how I started have a lot to do with making sure they're quick to have hands on what they need in order to fight a threat, or make sure their hands are free for the reins if the only option's fleeing (granted they're a race that rides and I have a mount early on into a new character). So things like...

eps = change hands ep es
esp = change hands es ep
ep2 = change hands ep etwo
es2 = change hands es etwo

... so on and so forth aside from the ever useful 'rp', 'rs', and 'rtwo', because the last thing you wanna be doing is panicking over having full hands when you're not yet skilled enough to ride with a weapon and a shield/a weapon in both hands/two hands on a weapon.

Oh, and if you didn't know already, something that took me a while to realize is that disengaging from your attacker makes it easier to pull your mount out of combat... or at least that's what it's felt like to me from the times I've done it.

[Riev]

I think, in the end, it may come down to a callous "too bad, so sad" scenario.
If your mount is not faster than the apex predators in your area, or your skill at riding does not allow you to get away fast... well. You should not be hunting there.
ABSOLUTELY this is an issue when you can just run up next to a bahamet basking in the sun. Thems the dangers of the ever-green lands.

That said? Give me a wilderness skill called "danger sense" that alerts me if there is an aggressive beast in a diagonal position from me. If it fails? I'm in danger.

[Kavrick]

I think, in the end, it may come down to a callous "too bad, so sad" scenario.
If your mount is not faster than the apex predators in your area, or your skill at riding does not allow you to get away fast... well. You should not be hunting there.
ABSOLUTELY this is an issue when you can just run up next to a bahamet basking in the sun. Thems the dangers of the ever-green lands.

That said? Give me a wilderness skill called "danger sense" that alerts me if there is an aggressive beast in a diagonal position from me. If it fails? I'm in danger.

Some sort of danger sense owuld be nice, maybe not make it a new skill but instead make it work off of hunt (as honestly i've never found a practical use for hunt myself). As for the whole 'don't hunt where it is dangerous for your character part'. This is not really an option in Tuluk, Tuluk is basically hyper dangerous in every single direction one way or another, I could explain in detail but that would more than likely be breaking meta-rules. Even the easiest thing to hunt in Tuluk is right next to like two different dangerous enemy spawns.

[Pariah]

I think, in the end, it may come down to a callous "too bad, so sad" scenario.
If your mount is not faster than the apex predators in your area, or your skill at riding does not allow you to get away fast... well. You should not be hunting there.
ABSOLUTELY this is an issue when you can just run up next to a bahamet basking in the sun. Thems the dangers of the ever-green lands...

The problem is that every aggressive critter is faster than most beetles.

I've had non-combat foragers out there who get the chalton that's enraged from (insert reason) and I instantly go, Run, e e e e e e e e e

And that fucking chalton will follow me like I'm crawling.

I've always thought that critters have entirely too much speed compared to mounts.  And the mounts that are super speedy, can't carry you for more than like ten rooms, so it's the choice of, am I going to rest my (speedy mount) every ten rooms I travel and lose the daylight simply from waiting for his endurance to tick, or am I going to ride my normal mount, but he can't run from shit.

There are some mechanics you can use to ensure you get away, but I don't know if spreading that knowledge here would be appreciated as it's sorta mechanical.

[Kavrick]

I think, in the end, it may come down to a callous "too bad, so sad" scenario.
If your mount is not faster than the apex predators in your area, or your skill at riding does not allow you to get away fast... well. You should not be hunting there.
ABSOLUTELY this is an issue when you can just run up next to a bahamet basking in the sun. Thems the dangers of the ever-green lands...

The problem is that every aggressive critter is faster than most beetles.

I've had non-combat foragers out there who get the chalton that's enraged from (insert reason) and I instantly go, Run, e e e e e e e e e

And that fucking chalton will follow me like I'm crawling.

I've always thought that critters have entirely too much speed compared to mounts.  And the mounts that are super speedy, can't carry you for more than like ten rooms, so it's the choice of, am I going to rest my (speedy mount) every ten rooms I travel and lose the daylight simply from waiting for his endurance to tick, or am I going to ride my normal mount, but he can't run from shit.

There are some mechanics you can use to ensure you get away, but I don't know if spreading that knowledge here would be appreciated as it's sorta mechanical.

This is a big issue I have with Carru in particular. In the north carru are EVERYWHERE, they're fast, faster than pretty much anything that's not an Inix and they're extremely deadly. I don't really understand why some creatures are so obsessively hostile, this is why I thought it'd be a good idea for some creatures, especially ones that are supposed to be herbivores to have a delay on running into your room, more intent to chase you off than kill you.

[Brokkr]

The problem is that every aggressive critter is faster than most beetles.

Incorrect.  Beetle mounts are equal in speed to most aggressive critters.

This is a big issue I have with Carru in particular. In the north carru are EVERYWHERE, they're fast, faster than pretty much anything that's not an Inix and they're extremely deadly.

No, carru are exactly the same speed as war beetles.

As for the original topic, NPCs move exactly like your PC moves, for the most part.  Meaning delay on movement is after.  Just like your PC.  Giving you somewhere between the movement delay wait state and movement delay wait state + aggro kick off to react to its presence, something I've always found beneficial myself.  Much better than if we flipped it, so it had delay to move in with you but no delay to attack you once it moved in.

The diagonal discussion has come up multiple times before. Beyond the technical issues, the idea doesn't really mesh well with the "harsh" part of the world to me.  Part of the world being harsh is your PC getting into dangerous situations that you, the player, did not intend them to be in. This mechanic of not seeing around corners is one of the few ways we have to do this. The idea that you can control which conflicts you get into with your PC, and that death only comes due to bad choices on the player's part, would absolutely gut the harshness of the world.

[Kavrick]

The problem is that every aggressive critter is faster than most beetles.

Incorrect.  Beetle mounts are equal in speed to most aggressive critters.

This is a big issue I have with Carru in particular. In the north carru are EVERYWHERE, they're fast, faster than pretty much anything that's not an Inix and they're extremely deadly.

No, carru are exactly the same speed as war beetles.

As for the original topic, NPCs move exactly like your PC moves, for the most part.  Meaning delay on movement is after.  Just like your PC.  Giving you somewhere between the movement delay wait state and movement delay wait state + aggro kick off to react to its presence, something I've always found beneficial myself.  Much better than if we flipped it, so it had delay to move in with you but no delay to attack you once it moved in.

The diagonal discussion has come up multiple times before. Beyond the technical issues, the idea doesn't really mesh well with the "harsh" part of the world to me.  Part of the world being harsh is your PC getting into dangerous situations that you, the player, did not intend them to be in. This mechanic of not seeing around corners is one of the few ways we have to do this. The idea that you can control which conflicts you get into with your PC, and that death only comes due to bad choices on the player's part, would absolutely gut the harshness of the world.

The only thing that I would say is that npcs dont move like PCs because NPCs gain and process information instantly. If I move into a room and then start looking to check my surroundings, the NPC will always notice me before I notice it. I understand that diagonal movement and sight would be awful and I'm not really wanting or desiring that. I do also understand wanting to keep the world dangerous and hostile, as someone who's play a lot of wilderness characters and considers themself at least a little decent at not dying to the local fauna, I would say that having a bahamet walk into your square instantly from a blind spot and then hit you for 60 damage before you can react doesn't feel particularly great when you're playing a game where death is permenant and progression on your character can take months, even years.

[LidlessEye]

I think, in the end, it may come down to a callous "too bad, so sad" scenario.
If your mount is not faster than the apex predators in your area, or your skill at riding does not allow you to get away fast... well. You should not be hunting there.
ABSOLUTELY this is an issue when you can just run up next to a bahamet basking in the sun. Thems the dangers of the ever-green lands.

That said? Give me a wilderness skill called "danger sense" that alerts me if there is an aggressive beast in a diagonal position from me. If it fails? I'm in danger.

Some sort of danger sense owuld be nice, maybe not make it a new skill but instead make it work off of hunt (as honestly i've never found a practical use for hunt myself). As for the whole 'don't hunt where it is dangerous for your character part'. This is not really an option in Tuluk, Tuluk is basically hyper dangerous in every single direction one way or another, I could explain in detail but that would more than likely be breaking meta-rules. Even the easiest thing to hunt in Tuluk is right next to like two different dangerous enemy spawns.

Hunt is very important for tracking down your quarry. I've literally used it to track fugitives over long distances, once tracking a fugitive from Allanak to Red Storm for a Templar.

[Brytta Léofa]

Other than that, I do concur that it would be nice if animals wandered back to their original location after awhile.

+1

Whenever an NPC is added to the game (spawned, loaded, teleported by staff), tag it with its start location.
When the NPC wants to wander, give it a chance to move towards its start location that is proportional to its distance away. (Say, 50% at 15 rooms away.)
Various game conditions might temporarily or permanently remove its memory of its start location.

Lets things wander around, be lured away, etc. but not hang out in a weird place forever.

(Also, now we can has carrier pigeons.)

[Pariah]

I think Kavrick hits the issue on the head.  That computer based enemy sees me the split second I come into the room, before I can even type look n to see it.

The NPC always has the benefit of this speed.

The problem is that every aggressive critter is faster than most beetles.

Incorrect.  Beetle mounts are equal in speed to most aggressive critters.

This is a big issue I have with Carru in particular. In the north carru are EVERYWHERE, they're fast, faster than pretty much anything that's not an Inix and they're extremely deadly.

No, carru are exactly the same speed as war beetles.

As for the original topic, NPCs move exactly like your PC moves, for the most part.  Meaning delay on movement is after.  Just like your PC.  Giving you somewhere between the movement delay wait state and movement delay wait state + aggro kick off to react to its presence, something I've always found beneficial myself.  Much better than if we flipped it, so it had delay to move in with you but no delay to attack you once it moved in.
...

I think it would be more balanced and sorta fair against a manually typing person like me to have them notice me, but have a delay before they start the chase train.  That gives me time to go:

W
Look N
(Mekillot just chillin)
think Oh shit
run
w

As it is now we are at a disadvantage from lots of different factors.  Say that mekillot insta runs into my room, there is lag on the game, I type run w w w w w w but before even my run command hits, their server side command of kill homie hits, I'm now one or two shotted by a mega predator.

Which I get it, it happens, the world is harsh, but I think the world should be harsh in a way where a little bit of lag doesn't kill your character.

Also, as I said before, there is really no roleplay at all from the critter side of view, where we have all these emote capabilities and animation capabilities of some critters (Kryl, Gith) etc.  A scrab will just run in and attack you, no emote, no messaging no nothing.  I think it would make sense if they showed some outward aggression that wasn't just kill homie.  A snarl, a growl, an angry clatter of mandibles, something.  But that's just flavor shit really.


Edit:  I think this has always been looked at as a "But it works." situation by staff/builders/coders because yes, sure it works.  Been working for decades.  But I think it should be looked at as a "Let's make the world more immersive and not settle for just, "It works."

[dumbstruck]

Southlands/EoE had a command called 'peer' that got around their diku style nswe limitations and let you look in diagonals up to 3 rooms out but it showed up odd, it would return different for peer nw than peer wn for example. That said, it's the closest I've seen to a legit workaround to this. There is a difference between genuine organic danger (which exists, and there is a lot. I recently played a tribal and swore to my clan staff I wouldn't go to a relatively popular spot in <area> because 8 poisonous npcs were known to spawn and glom up there. That's danger enough.) and code limitations, and I understand that using code limitations putting you in danger can increase the danger, but I don't think it's necessarily what players want or are looking for in a played experience where all too often the slightest slipup can mean a death that can lose you months to years of your RL investment of time, effort, and energy. If I'm going to lose that, I'd rather it be to a player, or at least an npc fight I CHOSE or a genuinely hidden npc, not just...code limiting me from ever having peripheral vision on a map in some ways.

[Brisket]

I'm aware that you can technically do this, but when you're in the open wilds, hunting every single day. It's not particularly practical to do this when danger can be in any direction.

Danger could be in any direction is part and parcel of the theme.  Until you're a very accomplished hunter that can easily handle a local apex predator, it is not only practical, its what your PC would, ICly, be doing.  Hunting isn't just mob bashing like in a different mud, its an active process that your PC is engaging in to collect meat, hide, and bones from living beings in order to use them for a variety of purposes.  Your hunts should be purposeful.  Your hunts should be scary before you become confidently able to handle the wildlife.

You're new so you haven't yet gained the experience with the difficulty curve necessary to understand when you should feel capable, and that can be deeply frustrating. I get it.  But every action should be considered ICly, and if tapping your 'look all' alias isn't practical, then the city might be a more engaging place for you to play.

[Kavrick]

I'm aware that you can technically do this, but when you're in the open wilds, hunting every single day. It's not particularly practical to do this when danger can be in any direction.

Danger could be in any direction is part and parcel of the theme.  Until you're a very accomplished hunter that can easily handle a local apex predator, it is not only practical, its what your PC would, ICly, be doing.  Hunting isn't just mob bashing like in a different mud, its an active process that your PC is engaging in to collect meat, hide, and bones from living beings in order to use them for a variety of purposes.  Your hunts should be purposeful.  Your hunts should be scary before you become confidently able to handle the wildlife.

You're new so you haven't yet gained the experience with the difficulty curve necessary to understand when you should feel capable, and that can be deeply frustrating. I get it.  But every action should be considered ICly, and if tapping your 'look all' alias isn't practical, then the city might be a more engaging place for you to play.

This is something i'm going to be stubborn on. Making it so enemies are invisible to you until you bump right into them when they're the size of a horse or even a building isn't 'part and parcel'. I'm fine with the game being dangerous, I'm fine with the world being hostile. But having this displayed through clunky and unintuitive systems isn't the best. Even if this comes down to me being 'new'. I've actually never died to this problem, it's just a very blatant problem that could be fixed with a few tweaks. I never said tapping alias isn't practical, I said that having to walk back and forth, trying to catch every angle with your look command so you can catch your blind spots isn't practical in the long run.

Make the game dangerous, make enemies that track you to find you, make enemies with venom and make enemies that are incredibly aggressive. But giving enemies impossible to match AI reaction times and being invisible until you walk right into them isn't the best way to display that, in my opinion.

[Pariah]

I'm aware that you can technically do this, but when you're in the open wilds, hunting every single day. It's not particularly practical to do this when danger can be in any direction.

Danger could be in any direction is part and parcel of the theme.  Until you're a very accomplished hunter that can easily handle a local apex predator, it is not only practical, its what your PC would, ICly, be doing.  Hunting isn't just mob bashing like in a different mud, its an active process that your PC is engaging in to collect meat, hide, and bones from living beings in order to use them for a variety of purposes.  Your hunts should be purposeful.  Your hunts should be scary before you become confidently able to handle the wildlife.

You're new so you haven't yet gained the experience with the difficulty curve necessary to understand when you should feel capable, and that can be deeply frustrating. I get it.  But every action should be considered ICly, and if tapping your 'look all' alias isn't practical, then the city might be a more engaging place for you to play.

This is something i'm going to be stubborn on. Making it so enemies are invisible to you until you bump right into them when they're the size of a horse or even a building isn't 'part and parcel'. I'm fine with the game being dangerous, I'm fine with the world being hostile. But having this displayed through clunky and unintuitive systems isn't the best. Even if this comes down to me being 'new'. I've actually never died to this problem, it's just a very blatant problem that could be fixed with a few tweaks. I never said tapping alias isn't practical, I said that having to walk back and forth, trying to catch every angle with your look command so you can catch your blind spots isn't practical in the long run.

Make the game dangerous, make enemies that track you to find you, make enemies with venom and make enemies that are incredibly aggressive. But giving enemies impossible to match AI reaction times and being invisible until you walk right into them isn't the best way to display that, in my opinion.

[FantasyWriter]

this is my command stack:
n
l e
l w
l n
n
I am already have my next north move queued up waiting on the previous north move delay.  If I need to change my mind, I can type stop. 
This lets me "outrun" the next door aggros about 60-70% of the time.

[Pariah]

this is my command stack:
n
l e
l w
l n
n
I am already have my next north move queued up waiting on the previous north move delay.  If I need to change my mind, I can type stop. 
This lets me "outrun" the next door aggros about 60-70% of the time.

I may just have a shitty connection to the game, but I type FAST, and I've had times where I don't even type the looks, cause insert-scary-shit just started chasing me.

And I get a room or two if I'm lucky before they bite off my leg.

[Brisket]

This is something i'm going to be stubborn on. Making it so enemies are invisible to you until you bump right into them when they're the size of a horse or even a building isn't 'part and parcel'. I'm fine with the game being dangerous, I'm fine with the world being hostile. But having this displayed through clunky and unintuitive systems isn't the best. Even if this comes down to me being 'new'. I've actually never died to this problem, it's just a very blatant problem that could be fixed with a few tweaks. I never said tapping alias isn't practical, I said that having to walk back and forth, trying to catch every angle with your look command so you can catch your blind spots isn't practical in the long run.

Make the game dangerous, make enemies that track you to find you, make enemies with venom and make enemies that are incredibly aggressive. But giving enemies impossible to match AI reaction times and being invisible until you walk right into them isn't the best way to display that, in my opinion.

Be stubborn, there's a delay when they walk into a room and you can leave, your mount is almost certainly as fast or faster than them.  The wilderness isn't *actually* a flat plane in most places, so think of weaving now and then as your character riding to catch a look around enormous sand dunes and other obstacles that something might be lurking behind. 

There is no impossible to match AI reaction time, there's a delay when they walk in, as has been mentioned.  They walk in and you have a solid few seconds to react - mount up, tap 's' or 'e' or 'flee self', react to a dangerous creature you spy approaching you that is unable to attack you for a little bit.  The game does demand some level of attentiveness and reaction time if you'd like to be a wilderness hunter.

Do you use a screen reader?  If so please reach out via DMs, I know blind players have thrived on Armageddon, and I can help you set up your client to beep at you when something walks into the same room so you can have a faster warning.

[FantasyWriter]

Reguarding Brokkr's comment about carru v. beetle speed.

Aggros are almost always "run"ning when they come after you. You can't run a mount very far at all.

So if a carru and a beetle have the same speed, you are walking your beetle, and the carru is running, then they aren't going the same speed.

[Pariah]

Reguarding Brokkr's comment about carru v. beetle speed.

Aggros are almost always "run"ning when they come after you. You can't run a mount very far at all.

So if a carru and a beetle have the same speed, you are walking your beetle, and the carru is running, then they aren't going the same speed.

Some of them accurately RUN into the room, sometimes they just walk in, but they walk like a senior citizen five hours before the mall opens, FAST.

The other issue is that creatures regenerate at STUPID high levels, I've walked in on an exhausted critter that spams the trying to run but is exhausted over and over.  I'll chill there for a minute and then they run off, they never sat down to rest, they in fact did the opposite and tried to break their neck running.  If critters had to recover like mounts do, then that would again be more of a fair exchange, but right now you can have a carru run ten rooms and hardly be tired, or if he is, by the time he ends up kill you his stamina is all the way back up.

[Kavrick]

This is something i'm going to be stubborn on. Making it so enemies are invisible to you until you bump right into them when they're the size of a horse or even a building isn't 'part and parcel'. I'm fine with the game being dangerous, I'm fine with the world being hostile. But having this displayed through clunky and unintuitive systems isn't the best. Even if this comes down to me being 'new'. I've actually never died to this problem, it's just a very blatant problem that could be fixed with a few tweaks. I never said tapping alias isn't practical, I said that having to walk back and forth, trying to catch every angle with your look command so you can catch your blind spots isn't practical in the long run.

Make the game dangerous, make enemies that track you to find you, make enemies with venom and make enemies that are incredibly aggressive. But giving enemies impossible to match AI reaction times and being invisible until you walk right into them isn't the best way to display that, in my opinion.

Be stubborn, there's a delay when they walk into a room and you can leave, your mount is almost certainly as fast or faster than them.  The wilderness isn't *actually* a flat plane in most places, so think of weaving now and then as your character riding to catch a look around enormous sand dunes and other obstacles that something might be lurking behind. 

There is no impossible to match AI reaction time, there's a delay when they walk in, as has been mentioned.  They walk in and you have a solid few seconds to react - mount up, tap 's' or 'e' or 'flee self', react to a dangerous creature you spy approaching you that is unable to attack you for a little bit.  The game does demand some level of attentiveness and reaction time if you'd like to be a wilderness hunter.

Do you use a screen reader?  If so please reach out via DMs, I know blind players have thrived on Armageddon, and I can help you set up your client to beep at you when something walks into the same room so you can have a faster warning.

I'm not blind but one thing I'll say is that there isn't a delay when they walk in, there's a delaye after they walk in, which is a big difference as it means they'll start chasing you the moment they see you. Rather than there being a delay before they start chasing you.

[Kavrick]

Reguarding Brokkr's comment about carru v. beetle speed.

Aggros are almost always "run"ning when they come after you. You can't run a mount very far at all.

So if a carru and a beetle have the same speed, you are walking your beetle, and the carru is running, then they aren't going the same speed.

Some of them accurately RUN into the room, sometimes they just walk in, but they walk like a senior citizen five hours before the mall opens, FAST.

The other issue is that creatures regenerate at STUPID high levels, I've walked in on an exhausted critter that spams the trying to run but is exhausted over and over.  I'll chill there for a minute and then they run off, they never sat down to rest, they in fact did the opposite and tried to break their neck running.  If critters had to recover like mounts do, then that would again be more of a fair exchange, but right now you can have a carru run ten rooms and hardly be tired, or if he is, by the time he ends up kill you his stamina is all the way back up.

On the note of enemy regen. I really think it needs to be looked at. Both enemy stamina regen and enemy health regen is absolutely overtuned. I recently found out that gurths regen health while they're in their shells and I'll see them go from profusely wounded to moderately wounded in 10-20 seconds. This is also a big deal when trying to hunt using ranged weapons, hitting an enemy with a ranged weapon doesn't seem to stop their health regen, so enemies will constantly regen health while trying to doing bow/sling/crossbow hunting which isn't very enjoyable.

[Brokkr]

A carru and a beetle mount have the same speeds.  So if your mount is running, it will be the same speed as the carru.  Obviously a mismatch if you are not running and it is, and that does lower the amount of wait state they get before they can attack.  But that isn't your mount being slower than a carru.  Running, it is the same speed.

And even as a player it was obvious that aggro NPCs moving into your room from an adjacent room depends on what part of the cycle time your movement happened.  That is, sometime you will move into a room and there will be an aggro NPC adjacent and there will be a noticeable amount of time before it moves into the room with you.  Sometimes enough to move on to the next room.  If you are able to move very fast, this becomes very noticeable.  So no, it isn't even instant every time.

[Brisket]

I'm not blind but one thing I'll say is that there isn't a delay when they walk in, there's a delaye after they walk in, which is a big difference as it means they'll start chasing you the moment they see you. Rather than there being a delay before they start chasing you.

Yes, you need to type 's' 'run' 's' 's' 's' 'e' 's' 'w' 's' 'e' and you'll almost certainly be safe.  There's a bit of a learning curve there, but zig zagging a little to evade a house-sized beast that just stood up from behind a sand dune and rushed you makes perfect sense to me.  Unless you're on a very slow mount, you can get away from most critters, and only a few chase you more than a few rooms if you don't just run in a straight line.  You'll also learn more where those beasts tend to be, which reduces the number of encounters (they can be led off their path) and helps your survivability.

[Kavrick]

I'm not blind but one thing I'll say is that there isn't a delay when they walk in, there's a delaye after they walk in, which is a big difference as it means they'll start chasing you the moment they see you. Rather than there being a delay before they start chasing you.

Yes, you need to type 's' 'run' 's' 's' 's' 'e' 's' 'w' 's' 'e' and you'll almost certainly be safe.  There's a bit of a learning curve there, but zig zagging a little to evade a house-sized beast that just stood up from behind a sand dune and rushed you makes perfect sense to me.  Unless you're on a very slow mount, you can get away from most critters, and only a few chase you more than a few rooms if you don't just run in a straight line.  You'll also learn more where those beasts tend to be, which reduces the number of encounters (they can be led off their path) and helps your survivability.

It's certainly doable, although I will say it makes less sense in areas that are described as 'flat plains'. Like I've said previously, it's never gotten me killed but I do find it to be rather undesirable clunk.

[Brisket]

It's certainly doable, although I will say it makes less sense in areas that are described as 'flat plains'. Like I've said previously, it's never gotten me killed but I do find it to be rather undesirable clunk.

Even very flat plains have places to duck out of sight, especially for predators native to those plains.  I suggest you zig zag a little and play your character's caution of the great outdoors as being just a little more serious.

[Veselka]

I would posit that while 'sight' is certainly explicable (albeit with some fuzzy logic) as 'behind some dunes' and 'over yon hill', I would venture that creatures over a certain size and weight should be both audible and visible from a distance.

The limitation is most certainly DIKU, not ArmageddonMUD per se, but still, it's a little...Odd...To defend what is a known code limitation. It is clunky. Other MU* run on different code allow for diagonal visibility and movement (!) but we are running Arm on Diku and I doubt that will change, ever.

Sure, we have what we have, that doesn't mean we can't wish for more realism and accuracy.

[Brisket]

I would posit that while 'sight' is certainly explicable (albeit with some fuzzy logic) as 'behind some dunes' and 'over yon hill', I would venture that creatures over a certain size and weight should be both audible and visible from a distance.

The limitation is most certainly DIKU, not ArmageddonMUD per se, but still, it's a little...Odd...To defend what is a known code limitation. It is clunky. Other MU* run on different code allow for diagonal visibility and movement (!) but we are running Arm on Diku and I doubt that will change, ever.

Sure, we have what we have, that doesn't mean we can't wish for more realism and accuracy.

I'm all in favor of some sort of sound related cues coming from larger creatures, I'm not so much defending it as I am offering alternative ways to view it to help the rp experience.

[Gunnerblaster]

Since I do not know how the NPC coding works for how they can identify enemies, I'm assuming they're doing the equivalent of a constant ">look north;>look east;>look south;>look west" or something along those lines. What if that process was slowed down to doing a "sweep" once every 10-15 seconds.

That way, it gives players an opportunity to at least react and try and ride away, if possible.

As it stands, wilderness/hostile NPC's are basically terminators who are on watch, all the time, every time.

[Brokkr]

How would any of those aggro NPCs kill any of you, with that long of a cycle?

[Brisket]

Since I do not know how the NPC coding works for how they can identify enemies, I'm assuming they're doing the equivalent of a constant ">look north;>look east;>look south;>look west" or something along those lines. What if that process was slowed down to doing a "sweep" once every 10-15 seconds.

That way, it gives players an opportunity to at least react and try and ride away, if possible.

As it stands, wilderness/hostile NPC's are basically terminators who are on watch, all the time, every time.

This is so absolutely untrue that the newbie who's been playing for 3 weeks has never died to it.

You can get away, just pay attention.

[Gunnerblaster]

Since I do not know how the NPC coding works for how they can identify enemies, I'm assuming they're doing the equivalent of a constant ">look north;>look east;>look south;>look west" or something along those lines. What if that process was slowed down to doing a "sweep" once every 10-15 seconds.

That way, it gives players an opportunity to at least react and try and ride away, if possible.

As it stands, wilderness/hostile NPC's are basically terminators who are on watch, all the time, every time.

This is so absolutely untrue that the newbie who's been playing for 3 weeks has never died to it.

You can get away, just pay attention.

Alright. Nice flex? I don't know what you're going for here.

My point is, it would be nice if there's some sort of cycle or delay on when an NPC detects you and when they react.

[Brisket]

Since I do not know how the NPC coding works for how they can identify enemies, I'm assuming they're doing the equivalent of a constant ">look north;>look east;>look south;>look west" or something along those lines. What if that process was slowed down to doing a "sweep" once every 10-15 seconds.

That way, it gives players an opportunity to at least react and try and ride away, if possible.

As it stands, wilderness/hostile NPC's are basically terminators who are on watch, all the time, every time.

This is so absolutely untrue that the newbie who's been playing for 3 weeks has never died to it.

You can get away, just pay attention.

Alright. Nice flex? I don't know what you're going for here.

My point is, it would be nice if there's some sort of cycle or delay on when an NPC detects you and when they react.

My 'flex'  was me telling you that you can get away.  The delay exists on movement when the NPC moves into the room with you.  It's plenty of time to stand, mount, and move in 85% of cases, and when it isn't, you can usually flee.  Your post said that they're like Terminators, and I guess they are because John Conner ended up alive and well to fight Skynet in every single movie.

[Veselka]

let's dial back the tone, we're all entitled to our opinions, no need to goad one another.

I agree with Brokkr, if we overly adjust NPCs like that, no one will die to them ever.

[Pariah]

Look at the delays on certain actions and that's the best way to get away.

[Pariah]

I don't remember the last time I died to a critter that wasn't an Ubercritter without some crazy bad luck.

It would be interesting if they ever showed stats of like a month to see how many people died to aggressive wildlife.

[Tailong]

As a purely combat oriented character, who has considerable playtime on his current, you can absolutely, 100%, get away and evade, with zero issues. There is a massive delay, and you can literally play with creatures, moving room to room at will. I have never had a mob enter my room running, that I couldnt either attack first, or simply move away. You might check your internet connections, or clients. Something is up.

[Veselka]

Yeah, there are Unexpected Things (tm) that happen that can take you out pretty quickly from NPCs in the Wilds, deadly combinations of poisons for example, but otherwise, with some care and attention (and a good internet connection that doesn't hiccup), it isn't impossible to get away from NPCs that chase you.

There are some NPCs that will continue to track you...It makes for an interesting cat and mouse game. I wish that happened more.

[Jimpka_Moss]

I'm fine with the game being dangerous, I'm fine with the world being hostile. But having this displayed through clunky and unintuitive systems isn't the best....

The world of Zalantahas is a hostile, dangerous place being displayed through a clunky and unintuitive system called Armageddon. It may not be possible for it to change in the way you want it to. Sooo many things about it, are unintuitive. I, personally enjoy this.

For instance, above, you were told how to best effectively spot your enemies from a side room. It is, indeed, practical in every aspect to this when you're hunting. Danger doesn't come from every direction, because every room you've seen to be empty, is, in fact, a room without danger. (sans failed hidden creatures, another reasons skills are important and keep game balance).


I understand your feeling that /something/ should compensate for the lack of ability to see in semi-cardinal directions, and Diku makes that difficult. I don't know HOW difficult it would be to make the wild_listen skill something that monitors those four invisible directions for creatures, but it could be a useful addition, and make Listen_wild greatly more valuable.

The reaction times are pretty realistically set for each creature on Zalanthas, and I'm someone who lags so much I once only got in two emotes during an RPT before it was over. I didn't die, because I was aware of my own limitations, and the ever present danger, and played my char as if they value their life as much as /I/ value my life. It's actually a very important part of RP that most people miss, when danger becomes ever present. (This might be getting a little ranty, and preachy, and I don't mean it to come off that way, I just enjoy it more when I add these aspects, and want to share that One Neat Trick with everyone).


There should be something done, eventually, with the coding powers we have or will gain. I'm not sure we can 'fix' it right now, but the reaction times are manageable when you know what you are hunting, why you are hunting it, and where you are hunting. Carru aren't everywhere, bahamets aren't everywhere, meks aren't everywhere.


It's been more than a year, but I got both that grebber, and that fucking scapegoat killed on purpose, it worked perfectly, and I nearly died three times. Worth it. Also, please make animals wander back to their homes eventually, OR, have wandering hunters/grebbers/npcs that could die and or fight it, to add even more realism, please.

TL:DR Diku is old, I don't know how to code it properly, reaction times and blind spots can be taught with izdari, and please support your local templarate by leading scrabs right into devotions./mild satire.


I'm sorry it's not working out, there are a variety of suggested workarounds, and a lot of culture has been built into the game that's been based off the standards for mobs we have now. I've played guides that scolded others for not 'looking around dunes' or checking 'bandit holes', years ago. I'm afraid of coming off as the 'We had to make do, you'll figure it out, bootstraps, blah blah blah' kind of boomer type voice people mock, but....

I mean...

Maybe let's look at Listen_Wild as an option for decreasing danger for those who are adept at surviving in the wilds. Especially with worms, bahamets, and mekillots, those noisy punks.

[Lutagar]

make sure you're riding an inix and not a beetle if you're exploring areas with big nasty beasts you need to escape quickly

[Case]

I could see a way to simulate diagonals without a significant remodelling of the code. It's not necessarily a good one, but it's relatively practical.

I assume the code uses graphs like DIKU.

In situations where:

a) 2 adjacent directions (any non N-S, E-W pair) are both visible and traversable by the PC
b) The rooms reached through a) lead to the same room when using the other direction of the pair, and both paths would be visible and traversable by the PC
c) The reverse is true (you can follow the algorithm from the target room back to the PC's current room)
d) All rooms involved are outdoors

For example:
PC can move N and E from a room.
The E from the N room and the N from the E room lead to the same room (the diagonal room).
From the diagonal room, the PC could move W and S, then S and W, and be back in the original room.



You could default to visibility of that diagonal room's contents, through look, or a separate scanning command which can list out all directions currently visible.
You could also potentially make it traversable by multiplying the move delay and associated costs by sqrt(2) (or 2x, to be punishing) when crossing the diagonal.
If it's undesired for building reasons in that location, flags can be added to block the behavior.

[Night Queen]

If you could see diagonally, everything else could too.

So things would be charging at you in room 1 already, instead of when going into room 2 (then would need a way to see through time, to see what is in the diagonal direction before the diagonal direction can be seen)

[Kavrick]

Honestly I know that movement/sight diagonals would be a nightmare, I care more about at least their being a delay on creatures spotting you, which is also realistic. As someone said in another thread, there's no real roleplay or immersion when it comes to hostile creatures, they're just robots that run at you and attack. Realistic creatures should give some sort of warning sign of you being in their terratory; growling, clicking of pincers, stuff like that.

[Pariah]

Honestly I know that movement/sight diagonals would be a nightmare, I care more about at least their being a delay on creatures spotting you, which is also realistic. As someone said in another thread, there's no real roleplay or immersion when it comes to hostile creatures, they're just robots that run at you and attack. Realistic creatures should give some sort of warning sign of you being in their terratory; growling, clicking of pincers, stuff like that.

Yeah this is sorta how I feel too.  Brokkr's response seems to me, to be, "But they kill you easier the way it works now." as if that's 100% the goal of them.  I don't know how I feel about that.

[Kavrick]

Honestly I know that movement/sight diagonals would be a nightmare, I care more about at least their being a delay on creatures spotting you, which is also realistic. As someone said in another thread, there's no real roleplay or immersion when it comes to hostile creatures, they're just robots that run at you and attack. Realistic creatures should give some sort of warning sign of you being in their terratory; growling, clicking of pincers, stuff like that.

Yeah this is sorta how I feel too.  Brokkr's response seems to me, to be, "But they kill you easier the way it works now." as if that's 100% the goal of them.  I don't know how I feel about that.

Yeah... I'm not really a huge fan of "it's like this because it's dangerous and we want things to be dangerous." I wanna say there's more nuance to how you can do it, danger can be fun and danger can be unfun, I consider this unfun.

If you wanna say the diagonal thing is a code limitation, that's fine and I can accept that. Animals just dont act like real animals in this game, especially when we were wanting it to be less hack and slash.

[Night Queen]

The Byn literally exist for stuff like this. But barely anyone actually uses them, because it seems like it's been normalised to treat the wilds casually, with a wave of bad changes like mounts being harder to wear out, and carts - with bad examples set by veteran players (including high ranking Byn sometimes!) doing cross-world trips alone, ignoring all the realistic perils there would be of organised gith bands waking up and going after that lone rider etc - I think we need more coded perils (something like an AI that detects lone people and scales to the threat to send roaming raiders etc) to make the game world feel more real, because then the more experienced players would stop ignoring it, and start actually playing alongside the newbies.

[Kavrick]

The Byn literally exist for stuff like this. But barely anyone actually uses them, because it seems like it's been normalised to treat the wilds casually, with a wave of bad changes like mounts being harder to wear out, and carts - with bad examples set by veteran players (including high ranking Byn sometimes!) doing cross-world trips alone, ignoring all the realistic perils there would be of organised gith bands waking up and going after that lone rider etc - I think we need more coded perils (something like an AI that detects lone people and scales to the threat to send roaming raiders etc) to make the game world feel more real, because then the more experienced players would stop ignoring it, and start actually playing alongside the newbies.

I really don't think punishing solo players is a good idea when some people have no choice but to play off-peak. if I get punished for playing the game during my own time-zone, it would drive me to stop playing.

[Pariah]

The Byn literally exist for stuff like this. But barely anyone actually uses them, because it seems like it's been normalised to treat the wilds casually, with a wave of bad changes like mounts being harder to wear out, and carts - with bad examples set by veteran players (including high ranking Byn sometimes!) doing cross-world trips alone, ignoring all the realistic perils there would be of organised gith bands waking up and going after that lone rider etc - I think we need more coded perils (something like an AI that detects lone people and scales to the threat to send roaming raiders etc) to make the game world feel more real, because then the more experienced players would stop ignoring it, and start actually playing alongside the newbies.

I'd love to hire Byn, but every time I look into you have a choice of one of two things.

A. Pay a little bit for a trooper/mercenary who probably isn't around when you need him/her.

B. They want an astronomical price to take you from Allanak to Luirs or be security while you greb or whatnot.  I think I had one Sergeant when I asked for him to protect me while I grebbed in a distant cave, quote me a LARGE.  I don't think my character even made a large yet in their life.

I think they either get greedy or they don't understand oocly "Hey this gives my runners and shit stuff to do!" which causes them to be utilized way less than they should.

[Kavrick]

The Byn literally exist for stuff like this. But barely anyone actually uses them, because it seems like it's been normalised to treat the wilds casually, with a wave of bad changes like mounts being harder to wear out, and carts - with bad examples set by veteran players (including high ranking Byn sometimes!) doing cross-world trips alone, ignoring all the realistic perils there would be of organised gith bands waking up and going after that lone rider etc - I think we need more coded perils (something like an AI that detects lone people and scales to the threat to send roaming raiders etc) to make the game world feel more real, because then the more experienced players would stop ignoring it, and start actually playing alongside the newbies.

I'd love to hire Byn, but every time I look into you have a choice of one of two things.

A. Pay a little bit for a trooper/mercenary who probably isn't around when you need him/her.

B. They want an astronomical price to take you from Allanak to Luirs or be security while you greb or whatnot.  I think I had one Sergeant when I asked for him to protect me while I grebbed in a distant cave, quote me a LARGE.  I don't think my character even made a large yet in their life.

I think they either get greedy or they don't understand oocly "Hey this gives my runners and shit stuff to do!" which causes them to be utilized way less than they should.

I second this, the price of hiring people is pretty rough. If i'm playing a scout and just starting off trying to get good at surviving, this would be a perfect time for me to hire someone to help me hunt. But hunting doesn't really make you a lot of money compared to stuff like obsidian mining or rubble grebbing in tuluk, so hiring someone to help you hunt wont even pay for itself so it's not really worth it.

[Night Queen]

I really don't think punishing solo players is a good idea when some people have no choice but to play off-peak. if I get punished for playing the game during my own time-zone, it would drive me to stop playing.

Different places in the world are busy at different times, terms like peak and off-peak just normalise the idea that the world should revolve around a particular time-zone - There's nearly always Byn from around the world because it's just that kind of clan, you can definitely find someone. Whether they're "meant" to go out with you is another thing, but they still can (and that's just a failure of leadership/assigning leadership positions to people that play at different times )

[Kavrick]

I really don't think punishing solo players is a good idea when some people have no choice but to play off-peak. if I get punished for playing the game during my own time-zone, it would drive me to stop playing.

Different places in the world are busy at different times, terms like peak and off-peak just normalise the idea that the world should revolve around a particular time-zone - There's nearly always Byn from around the world because it's just that kind of clan, you can definitely find someone. Whether they're "meant" to go out with you is another thing, but they still can (and that's just a failure of leadership/assigning leadership positions to people that play at different times )

Pretty much every clan I've met through multiple characters has had american timezone leadership. A lot of the game is centered around american timezones, especially when pretty much every RTP is around 3-4am my time. I would love to join a clan that's around my timezone but I haven't found one so far, so usually the way I play Arm is as a solo game until it's the evening to where I can hang out with the americans.

[Night Queen]

Well this is because leadership positions keep getting advertised as American times only, despite most of the interaction with staff being through reports anyway (!?) I think we need a rule that all positions should at least represent two halves of the world time-zone wise

[Kavrick]

Well this is because leadership positions keep getting advertised as American times only, despite most of the interaction with staff being through reports anyway (!?) I think we need a rule that all positions should at least represent two halves of the world time-zone wise

It's a bit off topic but I agree. Even if there was just one clan I could join that was designated a "european clan" so I could play with people in my timezone, that'd be really nice. I don't like playing solo, just kinda forced to.

[Night Queen]

Still fairly sure you can just ask any Byn at just about any time of the day, though

[Kavrick]

Still fairly sure you can just ask any Byn at just about any time of the day, though

Edit: Probably too precise IC information, removing that.

[Halcyon]

I think, in the end, it may come down to a callous "too bad, so sad" scenario.
If your mount is not faster than the apex predators in your area, or your skill at riding does not allow you to get away fast... well. You should not be hunting there.
ABSOLUTELY this is an issue when you can just run up next to a bahamet basking in the sun. Thems the dangers of the ever-green lands.

If this is the case, you are explicitly asking people to use knowledge from character to character or not venture outside.   I dont think either are healthy for the game.

[Night Queen]

It's part of the base lore of the setting that it's meant to be suicidal to wander out of the gates alone - that this has got easier for some people as a result of silly code changes is part of the problem, because then everyone wants to do it and thinks it's normal - I think we need a complete revamp of the wilds to reflect the changes and make it actually scary, so people actually play with other characters, it's a detriment to the game when nearly everyone is solo because those people eventually get bored and leave

[Kavrick]

It's part of the base lore of the setting that it's meant to be suicidal to wander out of the gates alone - that this has got easier for some people as a result of silly code changes is part of the problem, because then everyone wants to do it and thinks it's normal - I think we need a complete revamp of the wilds to reflect the changes and make it actually scary

I think you would push a lot of players away if you were forced to be in groups to do wilderness content.

[Riev]

I think, in the end, it may come down to a callous "too bad, so sad" scenario.
If your mount is not faster than the apex predators in your area, or your skill at riding does not allow you to get away fast... well. You should not be hunting there.
ABSOLUTELY this is an issue when you can just run up next to a bahamet basking in the sun. Thems the dangers of the ever-green lands.

If this is the case, you are explicitly asking people to use knowledge from character to character or not venture outside.   I dont think either are healthy for the game.

I don't think its entirely unfair to assume that people know "its dangerous to go outside alone" from character to character.

Your new PCs are not blank slates, activated at the time of login. They were virtual NPCs that you are bringing to life. Chances are, they've heard of a mekillot and hunters dying to scrab pinchies

[Night Queen]

It's part of the base lore of the setting that it's meant to be suicidal to wander out of the gates alone - that this has got easier for some people as a result of silly code changes is part of the problem, because then everyone wants to do it and thinks it's normal - I think we need a complete revamp of the wilds to reflect the changes and make it actually scary

I think you would push a lot of players away if you were forced to be in groups to do wilderness content.

It's the absolute opposite.

People are the same everywhere, and commercial games companies have found that encouraging people to play with other people means they are more likely to stay - whereas if they were alone, it's easier to just disappear randomly. So if you give motivations and goals for people that would otherwise stay completely isolated, they will actually start to take a foot into the pool and start joining groups for things. And from there on it becomes fun, and you find that some of the most capable, independent, people can turn out to be good leaders too

[Hauwke]

It's part of the base lore of the setting that it's meant to be suicidal to wander out of the gates alone - that this has got easier for some people as a result of silly code changes is part of the problem, because then everyone wants to do it and thinks it's normal - I think we need a complete revamp of the wilds to reflect the changes and make it actually scary

I think you would push a lot of players away if you were forced to be in groups to do wilderness content.

It's the absolute opposite.

People are the same everywhere, and commercial games companies have found that encouraging people to play with other people means they are more likely to stay - whereas if they were alone, it's easier to just disappear randomly. So if you give motivations and goals for people that would otherwise stay completely isolated, they will actually start to take a foot into the pool and start joining groups for things. And from there on it becomes fun, and you find that some of the most capable, independent, people can turn out to be good leaders too

Have you ever even met out playerbase? Like seriously?

There would be such colossal backlash over this change that I think we'd lose a good number of players in short order.

We are not a video game with 25000 players at any given time, we can't just type into chat "lfg, need 2". We insteadhm have times when it is basically impossible to find other people because the 15 logged in players are all somewhere you aren't. Likely off in the wilderness doing their own thing and having fun.

Would I like to see more colaboration? Absolutely, I think the largest population being made up of mega twinked indies is silly. But making it so no one can indy it up is a horrible idea.

[Night Queen]

It's part of the base lore of the setting that it's meant to be suicidal to wander out of the gates alone - that this has got easier for some people as a result of silly code changes is part of the problem, because then everyone wants to do it and thinks it's normal - I think we need a complete revamp of the wilds to reflect the changes and make it actually scary

I think you would push a lot of players away if you were forced to be in groups to do wilderness content.

It's the absolute opposite.

People are the same everywhere, and commercial games companies have found that encouraging people to play with other people means they are more likely to stay - whereas if they were alone, it's easier to just disappear randomly. So if you give motivations and goals for people that would otherwise stay completely isolated, they will actually start to take a foot into the pool and start joining groups for things. And from there on it becomes fun, and you find that some of the most capable, independent, people can turn out to be good leaders too

Have you ever even met out playerbase? Like seriously?

There would be such colossal backlash over this change that I think we'd lose a good number of players in short order.

We are not a video game with 25000 players at any given time, we can't just type into chat "lfg, need 2". We insteadhm have times when it is basically impossible to find other people because the 15 logged in players are all somewhere you aren't. Likely off in the wilderness doing their own thing and having fun.

Would I like to see more colaboration? Absolutely, I think the largest population being made up of mega twinked indies is silly. But making it so no one can indy it up is a horrible idea.

Whenever anyone someone suggests there will be a backlash it's usually hugely exaggerated, most people do not get all that worked up, people that post on the forum are a minority.

Also: Nothing of value would be lost.


For every person that mainly plays giant or dwarves, there's people being put off from trying Armageddon from the stories about these kind of characters and the focus on code that the bad stereotypes come from

For Armageddon to start to have a chance of replenishing the lost roleplayers, there have to be some concessions, the game's been in thrall to a code focus for too long and people NOTICE.

But most don't say anything, no backlash from the more RP-focused - they just leave to write elsewhere, because most people don't want to argue.


- More AI NPC reactions for when storytellers are asleep (or just not wanting to get involved - it's fair to say that it feels unfair when a NPC is spawned next to someone, it's better to have it all automated)

- Make giant NPCs (reason: code focus, low contribution to stories)

- Make dwarf NPCs (reason: code focus, low contribution to stories, "Each of the dwarves is just one thing .. You're progressive in one way but you're still making that *ing backward story of seven dwarves living in the cave." Separate species. Literally not even human.)

- Close Bashurit (reason: code focus, low contribution to stories, isolation with segregation of high karma from low karma characters, waterslides)

- Close Vrun-hali (reason: another Tan Muark is a mistake, for same reasons)

[Pariah]

It's part of the base lore of the setting that it's meant to be suicidal to wander out of the gates alone - that this has got easier for some people as a result of silly code changes is part of the problem, because then everyone wants to do it and thinks it's normal - I think we need a complete revamp of the wilds to reflect the changes and make it actually scary

I think you would push a lot of players away if you were forced to be in groups to do wilderness content.

It's the absolute opposite.

People are the same everywhere, and commercial games companies have found that encouraging people to play with other people means they are more likely to stay - whereas if they were alone, it's easier to just disappear randomly. So if you give motivations and goals for people that would otherwise stay completely isolated, they will actually start to take a foot into the pool and start joining groups for things. And from there on it becomes fun, and you find that some of the most capable, independent, people can turn out to be good leaders too

Have you ever even met out playerbase? Like seriously?

There would be such colossal backlash over this change that I think we'd lose a good number of players in short order.

We are not a video game with 25000 players at any given time, we can't just type into chat "lfg, need 2". We insteadhm have times when it is basically impossible to find other people because the 15 logged in players are all somewhere you aren't. Likely off in the wilderness doing their own thing and having fun.

Would I like to see more colaboration? Absolutely, I think the largest population being made up of mega twinked indies is silly. But making it so no one can indy it up is a horrible idea.

Whenever anyone someone suggests there will be a backlash it's usually hugely exaggerated, most people do not get all that worked up, people that post on the forum are a minority.

Also: Nothing of value would be lost.


For every person that mainly plays giant or dwarves, there's people being put off from trying Armageddon from the stories about these kind of characters and the focus on code that the bad stereotypes come from

For Armageddon to start to have a chance of replenishing the lost roleplayers, there have to be some concessions, the game's been in thrall to a code focus for too long and people NOTICE.

But most don't say anything, no backlash from the more RP-focused - they just leave to write elsewhere, because most people don't want to argue.


- More AI NPC reactions for when storytellers are asleep (or just not wanting to get involved - it's fair to say that it feels unfair when a NPC is spawned next to someone, it's better to have it all automated)

- Make giant NPCs (reason: code focus, low contribution to stories)

- Make dwarf NPCs (reason: code focus, low contribution to stories, "Each of the dwarves is just one thing .. You're progressive in one way but you're still making that *ing backward story of seven dwarves living in the cave." Separate species. Literally not even human.)

- Close Bashurit (reason: code focus, low contribution to stories, isolation with segregation of high karma from low karma characters, waterslides)

- Close Vrun-hali (reason: another Tan Muark is a mistake, for same reasons)

So you want nothing but humans and elves to be playable?  How do you know the Vrunwhatevers are Tan Muark clones?  I'm indifferent to the mutants so they can stay or go, doesn't matter to me.

[Night Queen]

I think the game needs more focus on characters and less on shallow flavor-of-the-month gimmicks and stereotypes, if even half of it was done it'd help

[creeper386]

Man, I think closing non human, non-elf races would kill the game completely.

EDIT: But also a lot of this is very quickly becoming off topic for the thread.

[Pariah]

Man, I think closing non human, non-elf races would kill the game completely.

EDIT: But also a lot of this is very quickly becoming off topic for the thread.

True, can you report to moderator and ask them to clean it up?

I would but I'm mobile only for now.

[Hauwke]

It's part of the base lore of the setting that it's meant to be suicidal to wander out of the gates alone - that this has got easier for some people as a result of silly code changes is part of the problem, because then everyone wants to do it and thinks it's normal - I think we need a complete revamp of the wilds to reflect the changes and make it actually scary

I think you would push a lot of players away if you were forced to be in groups to do wilderness content.

It's the absolute opposite.

People are the same everywhere, and commercial games companies have found that encouraging people to play with other people means they are more likely to stay - whereas if they were alone, it's easier to just disappear randomly. So if you give motivations and goals for people that would otherwise stay completely isolated, they will actually start to take a foot into the pool and start joining groups for things. And from there on it becomes fun, and you find that some of the most capable, independent, people can turn out to be good leaders too

Have you ever even met out playerbase? Like seriously?

There would be such colossal backlash over this change that I think we'd lose a good number of players in short order.

We are not a video game with 25000 players at any given time, we can't just type into chat "lfg, need 2". We insteadhm have times when it is basically impossible to find other people because the 15 logged in players are all somewhere you aren't. Likely off in the wilderness doing their own thing and having fun.

Would I like to see more colaboration? Absolutely, I think the largest population being made up of mega twinked indies is silly. But making it so no one can indy it up is a horrible idea.

Whenever anyone someone suggests there will be a backlash it's usually hugely exaggerated, most people do not get all that worked up, people that post on the forum are a minority.

Also: Nothing of value would be lost.


For every person that mainly plays giant or dwarves, there's people being put off from trying Armageddon from the stories about these kind of characters and the focus on code that the bad stereotypes come from

For Armageddon to start to have a chance of replenishing the lost roleplayers, there have to be some concessions, the game's been in thrall to a code focus for too long and people NOTICE.

But most don't say anything, no backlash from the more RP-focused - they just leave to write elsewhere, because most people don't want to argue.


- More AI NPC reactions for when storytellers are asleep (or just not wanting to get involved - it's fair to say that it feels unfair when a NPC is spawned next to someone, it's better to have it all automated)

- Make giant NPCs (reason: code focus, low contribution to stories)

- Make dwarf NPCs (reason: code focus, low contribution to stories, "Each of the dwarves is just one thing .. You're progressive in one way but you're still making that *ing backward story of seven dwarves living in the cave." Separate species. Literally not even human.)

- Close Bashurit (reason: code focus, low contribution to stories, isolation with segregation of high karma from low karma characters, waterslides)

- Close Vrun-hali (reason: another Tan Muark is a mistake, for same reasons)

So you want nothing but humans and elves to be playable?  How do you know the Vrunwhatevers are Tan Muark clones?  I'm indifferent to the mutants so they can stay or go, doesn't matter to me.

I think it may have to do with the fact NightQueen does not actually want what is, or even understand, best for the game at all. How is removing enormous swathes of the game so people can sit in taverns useful. It is not and will never be a good idea.

The Bashurit don't have water slides.

Dwarves are story contributors, some of the very best PCs have been incredibly well played dwarves.

HG's are the same, the bad ones are bad, but the good ones are truly great.

[Barsook]

Wrong thread, my friend.

[Night Queen]

It's part of the base lore of the setting that it's meant to be suicidal to wander out of the gates alone - that this has got easier for some people as a result of silly code changes is part of the problem, because then everyone wants to do it and thinks it's normal - I think we need a complete revamp of the wilds to reflect the changes and make it actually scary

I think you would push a lot of players away if you were forced to be in groups to do wilderness content.

It's the absolute opposite.

People are the same everywhere, and commercial games companies have found that encouraging people to play with other people means they are more likely to stay - whereas if they were alone, it's easier to just disappear randomly. So if you give motivations and goals for people that would otherwise stay completely isolated, they will actually start to take a foot into the pool and start joining groups for things. And from there on it becomes fun, and you find that some of the most capable, independent, people can turn out to be good leaders too

Have you ever even met out playerbase? Like seriously?

There would be such colossal backlash over this change that I think we'd lose a good number of players in short order.

We are not a video game with 25000 players at any given time, we can't just type into chat "lfg, need 2". We insteadhm have times when it is basically impossible to find other people because the 15 logged in players are all somewhere you aren't. Likely off in the wilderness doing their own thing and having fun.

Would I like to see more colaboration? Absolutely, I think the largest population being made up of mega twinked indies is silly. But making it so no one can indy it up is a horrible idea.

Whenever anyone someone suggests there will be a backlash it's usually hugely exaggerated, most people do not get all that worked up, people that post on the forum are a minority.

Also: Nothing of value would be lost.


For every person that mainly plays giant or dwarves, there's people being put off from trying Armageddon from the stories about these kind of characters and the focus on code that the bad stereotypes come from

For Armageddon to start to have a chance of replenishing the lost roleplayers, there have to be some concessions, the game's been in thrall to a code focus for too long and people NOTICE.

But most don't say anything, no backlash from the more RP-focused - they just leave to write elsewhere, because most people don't want to argue.


- More AI NPC reactions for when storytellers are asleep (or just not wanting to get involved - it's fair to say that it feels unfair when a NPC is spawned next to someone, it's better to have it all automated)

- Make giant NPCs (reason: code focus, low contribution to stories)

- Make dwarf NPCs (reason: code focus, low contribution to stories, "Each of the dwarves is just one thing .. You're progressive in one way but you're still making that *ing backward story of seven dwarves living in the cave." Separate species. Literally not even human.)

- Close Bashurit (reason: code focus, low contribution to stories, isolation with segregation of high karma from low karma characters, waterslides)

- Close Vrun-hali (reason: another Tan Muark is a mistake, for same reasons)

So you want nothing but humans and elves to be playable?  How do you know the Vrunwhatevers are Tan Muark clones?  I'm indifferent to the mutants so they can stay or go, doesn't matter to me.

I think it may have to do with the fact NightQueen does not actually want what is, or even understand, best for the game at all. How is removing enormous swathes of the game so people can sit in taverns useful. It is not and will never be a good idea.

The Bashurit don't have water slides.

Dwarves are story contributors, some of the very best PCs have been incredibly well played dwarves.

HG's are the same, the bad ones are bad, but the good ones are truly great.

There is nothing about being a dwarf itself that is a good character though, it's literally just saying they are not human because of their height lol. Tyrion from Game of Thrones is an example of a well-played dwarf. That does not exist in Armageddon, because the height would automatically classify them as non-human.

Waterslides are a metaphor for having too much things given to them to make what should normally be a hard position easy, I don't know if the Tan Muark ever even had literal waterslides(?)

Hauwke "does not actually want what is, or even understand, best for the game at all." And has admitted a few times on Discord to playing in a very limited code-focused fashion, focused on giants. I think that kind of stuff is part of the problem. Back to thread topic: Why are you going to hire a group when there's a giant doing everything for free? It's not meant to be a solo game, and when people play it like that, it affects the game for everyone else. It's not dangerous enough when people are doing this commonly. Giants should in fact attract extra attention from NPCs due to the size and noise.

[Dracul]

Tyrion is a human with dwarfism.

"Dwarves" in Zalanthas are evolved from darksun/dnd dwarves and are strong, short, hairless neurodivergent people who have a dedicated focus. Please read the helpfiles.

HG should definitely affect the economy, why do you think the Highlord makes them?

The Bashurit are incredible, and just as vulnerable to any npcs as any other group with a clan. They die too.

This thread has derailed hard...and is not going to go back on track because the initial post is about blindspots.

Blindspots in diku code would take tremendous effort to change, and it is not a desired effort from various voices on staff or players. Try to imagine those NE cant see SE cant see as those damn dunes, a tree, or whatever..and that is 'one' of the primitive tools that make the game harsh.

[Brisket]

There is nothing about being a dwarf itself that is a good character though, it's literally just saying they are not human because of their height lol. Tyrion from Game of Thrones is an example of a well-played dwarf. That does not exist in Armageddon, because the height would automatically classify them as non-human.

Waterslides are a metaphor for having too much things given to them to make what should normally be a hard position easy, I don't know if the Tan Muark ever even had literal waterslides(?)

Hauwke "does not actually want what is, or even understand, best for the game at all." And has admitted a few times on Discord to playing in a very limited code-focused fashion, focused on giants. I think that kind of stuff is part of the problem. Back to thread topic: Why are you going to hire a group when there's a giant doing everything for free? It's not meant to be a solo game, and when people play it like that, it affects the game for everyone else. It's not dangerous enough when people are doing this commonly. Giants should in fact attract extra attention from NPCs due to the size and noise.

That's not what dwarves are, I strongly suggest you go read the helpfiles.

[Night Queen]

Tyrion is a human with dwarfism.

"Dwarves" in Zalanthas are evolved from darksun/dnd dwarves

That's the point. Armageddon does not allow for this, because someone short is immediately classified as a non human "dwarf" - it's exactly the kind of literally dehumanising thing that came in for criticism there. As a group with not much representation (and so considered an "acceptable target" by corporations like Disney) it seems fair to use the comments of probably the most famous actor as a good gauge, and he also was not impressed with how the snow white dwarves are each focused on just one thing.

neurodivergent people

Seems more like an ignorant parody ("never will abandon that goal as long as they live") and it's a bit thoughtless to compare real people to Armageddon dwarf behavior ("because of the incredible singleness of purpose in the dwarven mind, they are usually somewhat less wise" - *ing wow)

[Brisket]

Tyrion is a human with dwarfism.

"Dwarves" in Zalanthas are evolved from darksun/dnd dwarves

That's the point. Armageddon does not allow for this, because someone short is immediately classified as a non human "dwarf" - it's exactly the kind of literally dehumanising thing that came in for criticism there. As a group with not much representation (and so considered an "acceptable target" by corporations like Disney) it seems fair to use the comments of probably the most famous actor as a good gauge, and he also was not impressed with how the snow white dwarves are each focused on just one thing.

neurodivergent people

Seems more like an ignorant parody ("never will abandon that goal as long as they live") and it's a bit thoughtless to compare real people to Armageddon dwarf behavior ("because of the incredible singleness of purpose in the dwarven mind, they are usually somewhat less wise" - *ing wow.)

this is, again, incorrect.  People with dwarfism exist and it does not change their species.  Again I suggest you check out the help files.

[Night Queen]

I suggest you go read the help files - which I literally just quoted, so you obviously have not read them - and the game creation options. There's set game heights for different races.

[Kavrick]

I suggest you go read the help files, and the game creation options. There's set game heights for different races.

I would imagine dwarfism or gigantism could be special apped via the mutant role. But this is also super off topic .

[Brisket]

I suggest you go read the help files, and the game creation options. There's set game heights for different races.

I would imagine dwarfism or gigantism could be special apped via the mutant role. But this is also super off topic .

This is correct, dwarves are not 'short humans' - they are a separate species. There have been people with dwarfism in the game, and until it was realized that it was an offensive slur 'midget' was an approved sdesc word. 

[Night Queen]

Short people are not a separate species and I don't understand how you can't see that's pretty cruel.

[Brisket]

Short people are not a separate species and I don't understand how you can't see that's pretty cruel.

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Dwarves

You should check out this and other files on the site, they help you understand the game world.

[Night Queen]

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Dwarves

You should check out this and other files on the site, they help you understand the game world.

[Dracul]

Neurodivergent is an umbrella term, so it can encompass the neurotypes exhibited in dwarves and HGs (are elves and muls that different or is it culture...but I digress).

Being a human, I am not exactly like either of those races, but I highly enjoy how parts of myself can play out in them.

And I think the Bashurit are pretty neat.

Again...this thread has derailed, and the initial question has kinda been answered.

[Brokkr]

Our dwarves are a different species.  Just like they are in Dark Sun.  Which is where a lot of our core concepts come from.

Please take your crusades elsewhere, or I will be closing the thread or deleting a whole lot of off topic posts.

[Brisket]

Our dwarves are a different species.  Just like they are in Dark Sun.  Which is where a lot of our core concepts come from.

Please take your crusades elsewhere, or I will be closing the thread or deleting a whole lot of off topic posts.

Sorry about getting a bit mystified at that whole derail, it got away from me, I do agree with Dracul that the question has been asked and answered.