Upcoming Combat System Changes, the Details

[roughneck]

I mean the counter argument would be, why doesn't strength factor into attack speed? Weapons are heavy, and the lighter something feels, the faster you can wield it.

But, most of all, it will be nice to see some more diversity in combat characters instead of everyone doing the same thing, being prioritizing strength and etwoing.

[lostinspace]

Obviously we will see, but recent history shows testing is not a strong suit of releases.

With this in mind, will there be any test server where players can try out these changes or will it just drop into the game live?

If it does drop live, and a bug/imbalance causes my PC to die to some creature they've killed hundreds of times before, will that be a suitable situation for a resurrection request?

[roughneck]

Staff: will there be any change to the relationship between agility and defense? Or will that remain as-is?

[Krath]

I mean the counter argument would be, why doesn't strength factor into attack speed? Weapons are heavy, and the lighter something feels, the faster you can wield it.

This is not even a counter argument, but truth. Strength SHOULD factor into attack speed. Your strength score, relative to your weapon weight, should affect your swing speed. Weapon weight should not directly affect your swing speed, but a combination of your coordination (Agility) and strength relative to the weight of the weapon.

Would staff be willing to tell us, with specifics, what goes into the mechanics of swing speed when they have decided on that?

[mansa]

I mean the counter argument would be, why doesn't strength factor into attack speed? Weapons are heavy, and the lighter something feels, the faster you can wield it.

This is not even a counter argument, but truth. Strength SHOULD factor into attack speed. Your strength score, relative to your weapon weight, should affect your swing speed. Weapon weight should not directly affect your swing speed, but a combination of your coordination (Agility) and strength relative to the weight of the weapon.

Would staff be willing to tell us, with specifics, what goes into the mechanics of swing speed when they have decided on that?

Let's say that you have a natural swing speed of once per 60 seconds.

If you have a weapon that weighs 20 pounds, how should it affect your swing speed?
If you have a weapon that weighs 5 pounds, how should it affect your swing speed?

If you have a strength roll of "exceptional", how should it affect the heavy weapon?
If you have a strength roll of "below average", how should it affect the heavy weapon?

If you have a strength roll of "exceptional", how should it affect the light weapon?
If you have a strength roll of "below average", how should it affect the light weapon?


Could you follow up on the idea and expand on it, and give some rough estimates to the example above?

[Pariah]

Obviously we will see, but recent history shows testing is not a strong suit of releases.

With this in mind, will there be any test server where players can try out these changes or will it just drop into the game live?

If it does drop live, and a bug/imbalance causes my PC to die to some creature they've killed hundreds of times before, will that be a suitable situation for a resurrection request?

Based on what they aren't working on RIGHT NOW, I would assume this change isn't going to make your character die to a spider or whatever.

Those invisible dude versus spider or however it works aren't changing.

They are just trying to balance out weapons and weapon styles.  The only thing they have volunteered is that 2handing currently lets slow as giants attack as fast as someone who isn't a giant, but giants hit like mack trucks so it's an unfair advantage.

If anything it might make high strength fights with wildlife longer, due to nicks and small hits.  But who knows, maybe those with high agility and strength will finish that spider off faster?  I'm excited to find out!

[roughneck]

I mean the counter argument would be, why doesn't strength factor into attack speed? Weapons are heavy, and the lighter something feels, the faster you can wield it.

This is not even a counter argument, but truth. Strength SHOULD factor into attack speed. Your strength score, relative to your weapon weight, should affect your swing speed. Weapon weight should not directly affect your swing speed, but a combination of your coordination (Agility) and strength relative to the weight of the weapon.

Would staff be willing to tell us, with specifics, what goes into the mechanics of swing speed when they have decided on that?

Let's say that you have a natural swing speed of once per 60 seconds.

If you have a weapon that weighs 20 pounds, how should it affect your swing speed?
If you have a weapon that weighs 5 pounds, how should it affect your swing speed?

If you have a strength roll of "exceptional", how should it affect the heavy weapon?
If you have a strength roll of "below average", how should it affect the heavy weapon?

If you have a strength roll of "exceptional", how should it affect the light weapon?
If you have a strength roll of "below average", how should it affect the light weapon?


Could you follow up on the idea and expand on it, and give some rough estimates to the example above?

I can't really, it's just a thought.

[Krath]

I will give the response in two formats:

Format 1:
IRL, Getting hit by a 20lbs sledge would end the fight, no matter the strength etc.

That being said, swing and recovery would be slower.
On to the heavy weapon, High strength should make it swing just as fast as the lighter weapon
High strength should not make you able to swing it faster then the heavy weapon, you have a swing speed and recovery limit. You can only be so fast, things can slow you down.

You know, If it was me, I would not be touching swing speed in strength v weapon weight, I would have it effect skill.

If the weapon is x verses strength then you lose skill.

Just as you would IRL, A 105 lbs champion female fencer would look clumsy AF trying to use a 20lbs 6 foot long blade, no matter what her agility is.


Format 2:
Before I get into my example we need some baselines:
1. Weapon Weights
      a. Light weapon weight = 1 stone (Mansa 5 lb wpn)
      b. Average Weapon weight = 2 stones
      c. Heavy weapon weights = 3 stones (Mansa 20lb Weapon)
2. Swing Speed
      a. 100%
      b. 75%
      c. 50%
3. Strength/Agility Scale 10 - 18
10 = poor
11 = Below Average
12 = average
13 = above average
14 = good
15 = very good
16 = extremely good
17 = exceptional
18 = AI

Scenario 1:
1. If you have a 20 lbs weapon, standard swing speed should be 50% based on average (12) human strength/agility. As your strength and agility goes up, or down, you would receive negative or positive adjustments to your swing up to 100%, not lower than 25%.
2. If you have a 5 lb weapon, standard swing speed should be 100% based on average (12) human strength/Agility. As your strength and agility go up attack swing is maxed at 100%. As your strength and agility down, you would receive negative adjustments down to 25% for the poor soul who rolls Poor strength and Agility.

Edited to add disclaimer: This is just an example of what I was thinking, clearly the 2 point difference wouldn't be a negative 75% for swing speed on the light weapons example

[Veselka]

Neat! About time we tried something new with combat.

It'd be cool to see skills like Riposte do well/better with one handed weapons, things like that.

Look forward to playtesting it.

[Hauwke]

Neat! About time we tried something new with combat.

It'd be cool to see skills like Riposte do well/better with one handed weapons, things like that.

Look forward to playtesting it.

One handed is noted as getting bonuses to kick, riposte and disarm.

[Veselka]

Neat! About time we tried something new with combat.

It'd be cool to see skills like Riposte do well/better with one handed weapons, things like that.

Look forward to playtesting it.

One handed is noted as getting bonuses to kick, riposte and disarm.

Ah, I missed that. There was a lot to read there. Thanks!

[creeper386]

I haven't read through all the responses, just the initial post.

I'm certainly concerned if attack speed remains the same while agility buffs damage.

Right now it's not uncommon to see someone attacking four to six times faster then everyone else. Which can make them deadly even with damage how it stands, if these sort of combos get just damage boosts .... It's going to be the exact opposite problem of strength dominating combat and now agility well.

[Vwest]

For one-handed: Would it not make more sense to give a moderate bonus to defense based on weapon skill?

With it's bonus to riposte, disarm, hack and kick, it could become competitive with the other three styles (2H, DW, S&B), serving as the agility-based defensive option that trades up the additional damage of dual wield and two-handed, as well as the extra 'tank' of sword and shield, in exchange for superior control of the fight (counter attacks, disarms, etc). It would also mean merchant and merchant-light classes could have a little more defenses, without giving them additional offense.

Dual wield: I notice shield-shield is listed there. Is this going to be something considered to be acceptable going forward? Can we just roll around with two shields out and not get punished for it, now?

Two-handed: Why does two-handed get an additional beneficial damage calculation and dual wield does not? Should dual wield not also get an additional damage increased based on the dual wield skill and agility? (- Additional Bonus damage based on factor of str and 2h skill)

Bare handed: Will being bare handed still leave characters (PC and NPC alike) comically vulnerable to being massacred in seconds by people armed with weapons? Or will this be toned down to a disadvantage, rather than immediate mantis head? Because it's kind of asinine we have people standing in bars with their two-handed swords wielded, but RPing like they're hanging around eating and drinking, even hugging and kissing, but also reasonable, considering even a 50+ day warrior could be decimated in moments by relative nobodies, or the latest suicide dwarf clubber with an ooc grudge.

It'd be nice if dual wield, shield use, single handed and two handed were tactical choices and having combinations in your team made a meaningful difference, but based on what's on offer, even with slower attacks, it still looks like max str/2h is going to be king of the hill (or kill, I guess?) going forward.

[Halcyon]

A weapon can only connect for like a quarter of inch, so not much energy is transferred, and any cut is shallow.  Even when the person with the weapon is a half-giant.

The change to two handed weapon speed will impact half-giants, because currently it completely does away with all the detriments of having a low agility.

On weapon weight, you must be making some assumptions on how we would handle weapon weight impacting combat speed.  How are you envisioning it?

I understand if you want to have a particular game balance, or produce a particular cinematic view of combat.   In reality, even a short lever in the hands of a strong and or massive person is amazingly effective.   

If the goal is simulation, getting hit anywhere with almost anything by a half giant should be a traumatic event.

In an SCA unit combat I got a simulated poleaxe head caught in the tabard of a guy I was fighting.  I panicked and jerked my weapon trying to clear it.  I threw the other man, in sixty pounds of SCA armor, and barely missed the nearby oak tree.

In another tournament I was getting my ass whipped in a paired halberd fight, when I tried a German winding technqiue from a 15th century fechtbook.   My opponent blocked what was essentially a rotating version of a one inch punch.   In doing so, I broke one of the long bones in his gauntleted hand.  I didnt hit it directly.  I just hit the haft he had a grip on.

One afternoon we were cutting tatami mats and the cheaper analogs, 2 liter bottles filled with water.   There was a debate about whether good form could allow a bottle to be torn or otherwise destroyed with a bokken, rather than a steel blade.   It turns out that our heavier bokken out of ironwood and UHMW will allow you to compress a bottle fast enough that the cap will explode off, before the hanging rope breaks.  But, only if your form is very clean and you weigh on the heavier end of the scale.

[Pariah]

It's not about reality, it's about game balance.

Right now a half giant can attack two handed faster than an elf.

[Brokkr]

Two-handed already gets additional strength damage.  What is being said is that it would maintain it.  Dual wield double dips on strength bonus currently, and would double dip on agility bonus (both attacks get it), so especially with removal of speed 2-handed needs the extra damage to be competitive on a DPS basis.

As for weapon weight influencing speed, it is unlikely to be anything like what anyone has posted. Modern combat systems in things like MMOs use percentages to fine tune DPS, and it really looks like a lot of the ideas think we utilize something like that.  We do not.  This combat system predates all the MMOs.  Not saying they aren't good ideas, just saying they will not really fit what we have.

[Kryos]

I am hyped.  And thank you, Halaster/Shabago/Brokkr/All staff in on this for showing it and taking feedback. 

[Krath]

Two-handed already gets additional strength damage.  What is being said is that it would maintain it.  Dual wield double dips on strength bonus currently, and would double dip on agility bonus (both attacks get it), so especially with removal of speed 2-handed needs the extra damage to be competitive on a DPS basis.

As for weapon weight influencing speed, it is unlikely to be anything like what anyone has posted. Modern combat systems in things like MMOs use percentages to fine tune DPS, and it really looks like a lot of the ideas think we utilize something like that.  We do not.  This combat system predates all the MMOs.  Not saying they aren't good ideas, just saying they will not really fit what we have.

I have a few of questions.

1. What Problem are we trying to solve by implementing this change?
2. What is the specific desired outcome/end state you are looking for with this change?
3. Will you be posting specifics of what effects weapon speed, and how it effects it, so, we as the community, can make the best decision for how we want to tailor our pcs?

The reason I am asking is for the player base to fully understand the intent and end goal so we can constructively collaborate on the inputs together. Yes, I will have follow up questions to your answers as a heads up, not to be bullish or anything, but to understand the boundaries of the box we are all playing in.

[mansa]

1. What Problem are we trying to solve by implementing this change?
2. What is the specific desired outcome/end state you are looking for with this change?
3. Will you be posting specifics of what effects weapon speed, and how it effects it, so, we as the community, can make the best decision for how we want to tailor our pcs?

The reason I am asking is for the player base to fully understand the intent and end goal so we can constructively collaborate on the inputs together. Yes, I will have follow up questions to your answers as a heads up, not to be bullish or anything, but to understand the boundaries of the box we are all playing in.

It's in the original post:

...We're pretty happy with this overview, but we're still hashing out exact details on certain points.  We're in the heavy number crunching phase.

The goals:

1) Bring all combat styles into a rough equilibrium.  Perfect balance is unlikely to ever happen, but right now two-handed is king because it's way overpowered compared to the others.
2) De-emphasize strength a little, add a bit more emphasis to agility.
3) Fix a few issues, such as "weight not mattering on attack speed".
4) Add a minimum size/weight weapon a HG can use

[creeper386]

Maybe I'm just unlucky. But this "half giants attack faster then an elf two handed" seems outright false.


From what I've seen. AVERAGE attack, is about once every fifteen seconds. Ranging from 2-3 seconds on up past thirty seconds between attacks.

Making this slower ... Would be awful. Especially when half giants already have such troubles to hit as well.

[Pariah]

I've only played like one half giant I think, and he walked out the gate and two shot a scrab with a club.  Sure it took a minute for those hits but he did it and he was etwoing.

Now this was YEARS AGO, but even I was like WTF?

I don't think Nerfing HGs is gonna be a major thing to worry about, specifically if their penalty from agility wasn't calculated correctly while two handing.

Not fixing that would be like saying, we know it's a bug and not working correctly, oh well.

[Brytta Léofa]

Staff, would you be able to take a look at learning rates / fail conditions while you're doing this work?

Two outcomes I'd hope for specifically:

(1) Ensure that every style gains offense, defense, and weapon skill at approximately the same rate when sparring vs every other style. (Assuming equivalent mojo--e.g. heavy vs heavy, similar skill levels, whatever.)

Currently there seem to be training advantages to specific stance choices and I don't want to see naive players like myself suck because it took us years to, e.g., figure out this one weird trick. (q.v. https://armageddon.org/request/view.php?id=114810)

(2) Remove any advantage to getting more than 1-2 failures of a given combat skill within a learning interval. In short, please remove the incentive to spam kick/bash and to get lots of weapon misses (or hits) for those sweet gainz.

Crafters can gain skill at the maximum possible rate without ripping dozens of clothlengths. Allowing faster combat skill gain via more and spammier fighting is just a bad incentive.

Note that I'm not asking for a faster maximum progression! I'm asking for you to equalize skill gain rates between folks who miss (e.g.) 5 attacks per hour and folks who miss 20 attacks per hour.

[Brytta Léofa]

(Overall this looks pretty great, btw.)

[Halaster]

will there be any test server where players can try out these changes or will it just drop into the game live?

I will set up something for invited players to help test with yes.

[Halaster]

Would staff be willing to tell us, with specifics, what goes into the mechanics of swing speed when they have decided on that?

Weapon weight is going to be factored into your attack speed.  Strength will help mitigate that.  The exact calculations haven't been settled on yet, but yes, strength is going to help.