Upcoming Combat System Changes, the Details

[Halaster]

We've been hinting at changes to the combat system for some time, we've finally got an overview that we're happy with and ready to show it to the community for a couple of reasons.  One, so that you can see what may be changing and potentially prepare your character for it.  And two, for your comments.  We're pretty happy with this overview, but we're still hashing out exact details on certain points.  We're in the heavy number crunching phase.

The goals:

1) Bring all combat styles into a rough equilibrium.  Perfect balance is unlikely to ever happen, but right now two-handed is king because it's way overpowered compared to the others.
2) De-emphasize strength a little, add a bit more emphasis to agility.
3) Fix a few issues, such as "weight not mattering on attack speed".
4) Add a minimum size/weight weapon a HG can use

With that in mind here is what the new system would potentially look like:


5 styles of combat:

One-handed - only one weapon used in either EP or ES
Dual Wield - two weapons, one in EP and one in ES
Two-handed - one weapon, ETWO'd
Weapon and Shield - one weapon, one shield
Barehanded - no weapons or shield

Definitions:
Agility-based extra damage - High agility will make damage more consistently 'average'.  It won't raise the cap, however.  Has some ability to bypass a little bit of armor.  Net result will mean high agility, low strength characters will "bounce" their blows much less often.
Strength-based - High strength will raise the maximum damage done. It will not be a flat bonus to all hits, meaning a high strength character will still have the potential of doing a lot of damage, but will sometimes not do very much.

General Combat Changes:
- Add weapon weight to calculations for speed of attacks


One-handed
- Agility based extra damage
- Minor strength based extra damage
- Offense Calculation:  Weapon skill will have a large impact, small penalty if the one hand being used is ES.
- Defense Calculation:  Weapon skill will have a small impact.
- Large bonus to kick, minor bonus to kick damage
- Small bonus to disarm, hack, riposte

Dual-wield
- Agility based extra damage
- Minor strength based extra damage
- Offense Calculation:  Weapon skill will have a large impact, dual wield skill will have a moderate impact
- Defense Calculation:  Dual wield skill will have a small impact
- Medium bonus to parry
- In case of shield-shield, small bonus to block skill for each, large bonus to bash

Two-handed
- Strength based extra damage
- Minor agility based extra damage
- Offense Calculation:  Weapon skill will have a large impact, two-handed skill will have a moderate impact.
- Defense Calculation:  Two-handed skill will have a moderate impact
- Additional Bonus damage based on factor of str and 2h skill
- Slower attacks
- Minor bonus to parry

Weapon and Shield
- Strength based extra damage
- Minor agility based extra damage
- Offense Calculation:  Weapon skill will have a large impact, small penalty if the weapon is ES
- Defense Calculation:  Shield use skill will have a small impact
- Large bonus to bash
- Increase max shield skill for heavy fighters by moderate amount, light fighter by small amount, balanced by tiny amount
- Chance to block attacks

Barehanded
- Strength and Agility based extra damage
- Offense Calculation:  No bonus
- Defense Calculation:  No bonus

[mansa]

Will there be a chance for a monk like character trope, where you prefer barehanded against weapons?   Or will it always be detrimental against anyone with any time of weapon?

[Kavrick]

I really like the look of this, but I do want to ask if one-handed will get an additional related combat skill, rather than solely being weapon-skill, especially with how slow weapon skills raise I would be concerned.

[zealus]

YES!
Finally some clarity on the obscure combat system, so I can make logical decisions, not based on guesswork. I like this!

[Halaster]

One-handed will still be inferior to the rest.
Bare-handed will still be inferior to the rest.

They just won't be AS bad as they used to be.

[Jarvis]

This looks really tight, I'm excited for this.

[Pariah]

Will there be any changes to the high strength/blunt combo?

Right now certain classes can walk outta chargen with a club, etwo it and knockout, kill/rob someone at zero hours played.  Any plans to make that less of a thing?

[racurtne]

Approved. Merge code now.

[Halaster]

Will there be any changes to the high strength/blunt combo?

Right now certain classes can walk outta chargen with a club, etwo it and knockout, kill/rob someone at zero hours played.  Any plans to make that less of a thing?

There's already been a slight 'nerf' to that in that the new weapon categories generally saw bludgeoning weapons scaled down in damage dice.  But a heavy combat character fresh out of chargen is still going to be able to wail on a well-established character who has 0 combat skills.  We'll look a bit at stun during all this, but don't expect major changes to that specifically.  This change is about the reasons above:  balancing all the fighting styles, de-emphasizing strength a little, emphasizing agility a little.

[Hauwke]

I think I love all this, my only concern is that this might end up with HG's managing to get nick and graze shots, which seems a little silly.

[Halaster]

I think I love all this, my only concern is that this might end up with HG's managing to get nick and graze shots, which seems a little silly.

It certainly could.  The theory is that not every hit is a good hit.  Even someone really strong can have a grazing blow sometimes.  They connected, but just barely.

[LidlessEye]

Absolutely awesome. In a similar vein would crossbows get looked at too? Thanks!

[Pariah]

I've had some ten days played stalkers, who fight every IG day, of that ten days played RL time character.

Can easily kill drov beetles, spiders and the like in that amount of time for instance.

Get just obliterated by a heavy combat type out of chargen in a spar or real battle.

Is there going to be anything in the works to balance that?  I also understand I could have just fallen victim to RNG fails, but it's happened many times on my longer lived stalkers that a newb heavy combat guy will just tear me to ribbons.

Edit:  Also, I think you were the staffer that answered my request about parry and branching on a stalker.  Right now it's super slow to branch parry if you play a shield wielding stalker.  Are you gonna do any code voodoo to help parry learn at a faster rate if you're going to utilize shield?  Only reason it really even matters is because stalker branches off parry.  So how it currently works you gotta wait forever to branch it, or not use your preferred fighting style (in my case shield use).

[Halaster]

I've had some ten days played stalkers, who fight every IG day, of that ten days played RL time character.

Can easily kill drov beetles, spiders and the like in that amount of time for instance.

Get just obliterated by a heavy combat type out of chargen in a spar or real battle.

Is there going to be anything in the works to balance that?  I also understand I could have just fallen victim to RNG fails, but it's happened many times on my longer lived stalkers that a newb heavy combat guy will just tear me to ribbons.

Not this change.  This change is about:

1) Bring all combat styles into a rough equilibrium.  Perfect balance is unlikely to ever happen, but right now two-handed is king because it's way overpowered compared to the others.
2) De-emphasize strength a little, add a bit more emphasis to agility.
3) Fix a few issues, such as "weight not mattering on attack speed".
4) Add a minimum size/weight weapon a HG can use

What you're describing is a difference in their combat skills, which is really more about a class/subclass balancing project.

[Kryos]

Will there be any changes to the high strength/blunt combo?

Right now certain classes can walk outta chargen with a club, etwo it and knockout, kill/rob someone at zero hours played.  Any plans to make that less of a thing?

Further question:  will other weapon styles get a look.  There's a reason that in reality the spear is the actual best weapon to use most times whereas fantasy wanks arrows and swords.  But in the context of the game, I agree not all types feel or perform from the player perspective as powerfully, though riposte/hack has helped.

Answered above.  Hopefully later.

[Pariah]

I've had some ten days played stalkers, who fight every IG day, of that ten days played RL time character.

Can easily kill drov beetles, spiders and the like in that amount of time for instance.

Get just obliterated by a heavy combat type out of chargen in a spar or real battle.

Is there going to be anything in the works to balance that?  I also understand I could have just fallen victim to RNG fails, but it's happened many times on my longer lived stalkers that a newb heavy combat guy will just tear me to ribbons.

Not this change.  This change is about:

1) Bring all combat styles into a rough equilibrium.  Perfect balance is unlikely to ever happen, but right now two-handed is king because it's way overpowered compared to the others.
2) De-emphasize strength a little, add a bit more emphasis to agility.
3) Fix a few issues, such as "weight not mattering on attack speed".
4) Add a minimum size/weight weapon a HG can use

What you're describing is a difference in their combat skills, which is really more about a class/subclass balancing project.

Fair fair, at long as it's something you're going to look at.  I've even considered doing raider/something with skinning subclass, just to have more power potential with my "hunters".

I don't want to mind you, I'd rather pick a subguild that gives me crafts or magick, but to be survivable against players and critters, right now it feels like you have to.

[Kryos]

So if Agi is the floor and Str is the cap, does this possess interplay?  More str and more agi slide the overall 'dps' window higher?  If so that would likely make muls really scary and decidedly superior to HGs in combat, which I feel is a good thing, but is worth keeping an eye on in terms of 'how much?'

[Pariah]

So if Agi is the floor and Str is the cap, does this possess interplay?  More str and more agi slide the overall 'dps' window higher?  If so that would likely make muls really scary and decidedly superior to HGs in combat, which I feel is a good thing, but is worth keeping an eye on in terms of 'how much?'

I think that's the idea of Muls honestly.  They are the smarter, scarier/deadlier version of an idiot giants (Going by documentation, they are supposed to be stupid!).

[Hauwke]

So if Agi is the floor and Str is the cap, does this possess interplay?  More str and more agi slide the overall 'dps' window higher?  If so that would likely make muls really scary and decidedly superior to HGs in combat, which I feel is a good thing, but is worth keeping an eye on in terms of 'how much?'

Well they too are going to be subjected to the lowered bonuses because they won't get a flat + but rather widened range. I think it brings everyone into a better (to steal Halasters word) equilibrium.

I think I'm a little put off by the fact strength characters won't be able to dual wield really at all anymore, but yeah.

[Kryos]

So if Agi is the floor and Str is the cap, does this possess interplay?  More str and more agi slide the overall 'dps' window higher?  If so that would likely make muls really scary and decidedly superior to HGs in combat, which I feel is a good thing, but is worth keeping an eye on in terms of 'how much?'

I think that's the idea of Muls honestly.  They are the smarter, scarier/deadlier version of an idiot giants (Going by documentation, they are supposed to be stupid!).

Agreed, just think its worth noting a special eye might want to be kept on how large the resultant effect and gap is.


I also wished to note that many systems, including ye olde real life, use a 'overpower' mechanic when it comes to attack speed and weapon weight.  If you're strong enough, you can force a weapon to ready position again pretty quick compared to someone who isn't.  Don't know how that fits in the numbers you want to make but might help shore up HG's and dwarves if they need a little help.  I guess I'm a touch worried about overcorrection on the str based races, since they are getting hit more than once here.

[Halaster]

So if Agi is the floor and Str is the cap, does this possess interplay?  More str and more agi slide the overall 'dps' window higher?  If so that would likely make muls really scary and decidedly superior to HGs in combat, which I feel is a good thing, but is worth keeping an eye on in terms of 'how much?'

Yes, exactly.

[Halaster]

I think I'm a little put off by the fact strength characters won't be able to dual wield really at all anymore, but yeah.

Sure they can.   They won't get quite the damage bonus as 2h, but they'll still be able to do it.

But yes, dual-wield will be more geared towards agility combat than 2h.

[Krath]

I have a little bit of concerns, specifically regarding Half-giants. HG's are already slow as snails to swing and bringing in the changes for them to do LESS damage, and, because of the weight of their weapons, swing slower seems like a bad idea. I appreciate the approach to making the game balance, and do for the most part like some of these changes. Taking away a Half-giants main perk, because players get one shot KOd by them on occasion, does not seem like a realistic idea. Under no circumstance can I see a giant of any kind landing a nick or graze when they get their hands or weapons on you.

[Pariah]

I have a little bit of concerns, specifically regarding Half-giants. HG's are already slow as snails to swing and bringing in the changes for them to do LESS damage, and, because of the weight of their weapons, swing slower seems like a bad idea. I appreciate the approach to making the game balance, and do for the most part like some of these changes. Taking away a Half-giants main perk, because players get one shot KOd by them on occasion, does not seem like a realistic idea. Under no circumstance can I see a giant of any kind landing a nick or graze when they get their hands or weapons on you.

It's the same when a big huge physical guy punches a little skinny guy but the skinny guy slips the punch, he gets a piece of it but not 100% square muscle/fist to face.

So if Agi is the floor and Str is the cap, does this possess interplay?  More str and more agi slide the overall 'dps' window higher?  If so that would likely make muls really scary and decidedly superior to HGs in combat, which I feel is a good thing, but is worth keeping an eye on in terms of 'how much?'

I think that's the idea of Muls honestly.  They are the smarter, scarier/deadlier version of an idiot giants (Going by documentation, they are supposed to be stupid!).

Agreed, just think its worth noting a special eye might want to be kept on how large the resultant effect and gap is.


I also wished to note that many systems, including ye olde real life, use a 'overpower' mechanic when it comes to attack speed and weapon weight.  If you're strong enough, you can force a weapon to ready position again pretty quick compared to someone who isn't.  Don't know how that fits in the numbers you want to make but might help shore up HG's and dwarves if they need a little help.  I guess I'm a touch worried about overcorrection on the str based races, since they are getting hit more than once here.

I've always thought that our system ISN'T realistic, because of the nicks and such.  If I come up and start cutting you over and over, even if they are just little flesh wounds, it's going to weaken you.

You're not going to be able to operate at 100% combat proficiency getting hit 10 times by an elf for 30 damage lets say.

My hope is that they will eventually take pain into the mix versus pure HP value.  A guy who's 10/130 hp shouldn't be fighting like an olympian.  He's damn near dead.

[Brokkr]

I have a little bit of concerns, specifically regarding Half-giants. HG's are already slow as snails to swing and bringing in the changes for them to do LESS damage, and, because of the weight of their weapons, swing slower seems like a bad idea. I appreciate the approach to making the game balance, and do for the most part like some of these changes. Taking away a Half-giants main perk, because players get one shot KOd by them on occasion, does not seem like a realistic idea. Under no circumstance can I see a giant of any kind landing a nick or graze when they get their hands or weapons on you.

A weapon can only connect for like a quarter of inch, so not much energy is transferred, and any cut is shallow.  Even when the person with the weapon is a half-giant.

The change to two handed weapon speed will impact half-giants, because currently it completely does away with all the detriments of having a low agility.

On weapon weight, you must be making some assumptions on how we would handle weapon weight impacting combat speed.  How are you envisioning it?