What would entice you to play more in the cities?

[Hestia]

There's a difference between your used carru leather boots landing in a pool of someone's upchucked raptor nuggets, and splinters of razor-sharp obsidian flying into your face.

And the bartender isn't going to be happy about you using 4-6 feet of his bar to lay out a length of sandcloth to make your fifth djellabah.  Not to mention that the bar top probably is coated with sticky stale ale because the bartender is a slob and wipes beer mugs under his armpit.

So no - the taproom of a tavern - unless the mdesc indicates there's a space set aside for it, is not really a good place to craft.

Is it codedly allowed? Yup. Will your character get grief if he does it? Maybe, maybe not. Even the nastiest dives have their own protocol.

[DesertT]

There's a difference between your used carru leather boots landing in a pool of someone's upchucked raptor nuggets, and splinters of razor-sharp obsidian flying into your face.

And the bartender isn't going to be happy about you using 4-6 feet of his bar to lay out a length of sandcloth to make your fifth djellabah.  Not to mention that the bar top probably is coated with sticky stale ale because the bartender is a slob and wipes beer mugs under his armpit.

So no - the taproom of a tavern - unless the mdesc indicates there's a space set aside for it, is not really a good place to craft.

Is it codedly allowed? Yup. Will your character get grief if he does it? Maybe, maybe not. Even the nastiest dives have their own protocol.

This is precisely why I suggested maybe setting up "one side of a wall" which could be in the smoke pits area.  NOT at the bar.   

[Pariah]

While I can understand that it's spammy, my take is I'd rather have Joe Crafter there to talk to and interact with.

Now if he's just spam crafting the shit outta his sack of stuff and ignoring the world and not interacting, that's more of a RP thing.

But if he's talking to me, emoting with me or even just emoting he's ignoring me and concentrating on his bone driveshaft for his new 2023 Kadius Kart, I'm totally fine with that too.

Too many people want to segregate away from others and then get surprised there is nobody to play with.

Same problem I see with hemmed witches, if they follow the rules they are off in their temple, by themselves most likely, and then they get bored and store, or they spam cast so much they get staff attention because they think since they can't do it other places there is nothing but the magic part of themselves.

I feel we need to make more allowances for people to get together than ones that tell you to stay apart.

[HammerofJericho]

While I can understand that it's spammy, my take is I'd rather have Joe Crafter there to talk to and interact with.

Now if he's just spam crafting the shit outta his sack of stuff and ignoring the world and not interacting, that's more of a RP thing.

But if he's talking to me, emoting with me or even just emoting he's ignoring me and concentrating on his bone driveshaft for his new 2023 Kadius Kart, I'm totally fine with that too.

Too many people want to segregate away from others and then get surprised there is nobody to play with.

Same problem I see with hemmed witches, if they follow the rules they are off in their temple, by themselves most likely, and then they get bored and store, or they spam cast so much they get staff attention because they think since they can't do it other places there is nothing but the magic part of themselves.

I feel we need to make more allowances for people to get together than ones that tell you to stay apart.

Amen. Seriously,  people want realism so much and forget this is a game. I'd rather have people together that try to push "logical" segregation as well.

[Windstorm]

If it were up to me I'd lift the restrictions on just about anything that limited interactivity. Spar with whoever you want. Go to the bar you want. Go where you want.

If PCs enforce limitations or stigmas on interactions, fine. But have PCs do it. Lift all the arbitrary rules that give people in clans less to do, less places to go, and less people to interact with. Bring them out from behind closed doors, clan compounds, or sitting idle in crafting halls. How's the game benefit from any of that?

Somebody's crafting in the bar? Nobles in the Gaj? Someone chatting up a breed or a gemmer?

Awesome!

Give them shit about it IC if you want. That's interaction. I am pro-interaction.

[Windstorm]

Another thing, but this is on the players!

Go break some fucking rules, guys. Go trust an elf. Go chill with a halfbreed. Actually go in an apartment with someone or hang out at a bar.

It doesn't have to go perfectly.  You don't have to win. Get betrayed. Get looked down on. Stand out. Get caught. Fuck things up. Lose some coin. Make bad decisions. Shit, just make imperfect decisions.

All of the above is way more fucking fun than sitting in  your clan compound and only ever doing what you're supposed to, telling other people what they're supposed to.

If you're playing Armageddon, never taking risks and wondering why you're bored, I've got some bad news for you.

[LindseyBalboa]

"why don't people play in cities?"

Eww..no. Bars are not for crafting. Its actually bad form, chipping shit all over the fucking place. Its like cooking a grilled steak. Just because it doesn't require a fire, should you still cook it like magic?

There's a difference between your used carru leather boots landing in a pool of someone's upchucked raptor nuggets, and splinters of razor-sharp obsidian flying into your face.

And the bartender isn't going to be happy about you using 4-6 feet of his bar to lay out a length of sandcloth to make your fifth djellabah.  Not to mention that the bar top probably is coated with sticky stale ale because the bartender is a slob and wipes beer mugs under his armpit.

So no - the taproom of a tavern - unless the mdesc indicates there's a space set aside for it, is not really a good place to craft.

Is it codedly allowed? Yup. Will your character get grief if he does it? Maybe, maybe not. Even the nastiest dives have their own protocol.

I have never seen anyone get shit at a tribal fire for any crafting. So like... yeah it makes sense to get ICly annoyed or have IC rules but do we really have to keep crafters out of bars and public in cities?  Maybe all most taverns could just have areas in the main room to do most idle crafts, so there's no in game extra barrier in front of roleplay.

(edited for clarity, grammar, and focus in bold)

[BadSkeelz]

Hard disagree on Windstorm's suggestions. Players already break social rules as a rule; everyone thinks of themselves as a snowflake and will carve out whatever exception they want because "it's what my character will do." The virtual world is considered a distressingly small amount of the time. Doc-mandated social stigmas are the only way to begin enforcing such things. If you want to get rid of them, you might as well just throw out docs entirely and revert this to a hack-and-slash free for all where Magick and Karma races are just perks of playing a long time. It'd create a completely asinine setting.

[Miradus]

I agree with Bads.

Social conventions MAKE the setting.

Now I do like having a long character arc where my character goes from "he's a filthy breed" to "he's my friend and I'll kill you if you call him a filthy breed."

However, it needs to take time. I've watched over and over as players bring in real world modernity into this fantasy setting where it's entirely inappropriate. Or the whole city, including nobles, rallies around some half-breed rinther girl who got made fun of in the Gaj.

[Pariah]

I agree with Bads.

Social conventions MAKE the setting.

Now I do like having a long character arc where my character goes from "he's a filthy breed" to "he's my friend and I'll kill you if you call him a filthy breed."

However, it needs to take time. I've watched over and over as players bring in real world modernity into this fantasy setting where it's entirely inappropriate. Or the whole city, including nobles, rallies around some half-breed rinther girl who got made fun of in the Gaj.

Well, to be honest, if you start limiting what you can call some races IC just because it has some RL similarity to a racist term, it's not surprising that people bring all their other social justice stances across the ic/ooc barrier.

I sorta wish Arm went back to the do/say anything with consent for the bad bits, but we are a game ran by people, and everyone has an opinion.

So stuff like that will always happen.

[zealus]

Would like to point out that most taverns (Gaj and the Vestric at least) have cooking fires where crafting happens. Red Storm Tavern (I forgot the name), has booths, so there are options. I would personally not appriciate someone yelling at me for crafting at the cooking pits, especially because I do that specifically to be out there and interact as opposed to spamcraft in my apartment and moneyprint.
Idling at the bar is only fun for as long as my netflix backlog lasts, really

[Hestia]

A small thing perhaps - but hopefully it'll make a little difference.

In response to the "shouldn't craft at the bar, but don't want to isolate to craft" I've given the Gaj roasting pits a minor upgrade. There is now seating, and the room itself has been given a more "crafter-friendly" atmosphere.

[Pariah]

A small thing perhaps - but hopefully it'll make a little difference.

In response to the "shouldn't craft at the bar, but don't want to isolate to craft" I've given the Gaj roasting pits a minor upgrade. There is now seating, and the room itself has been given a more "crafter-friendly" atmosphere.

Good shit!

Once I stop the goblin threat to Hogwarts, I'll check it out!

[Miradus]

A small thing perhaps - but hopefully it'll make a little difference.

In response to the "shouldn't craft at the bar, but don't want to isolate to craft" I've given the Gaj roasting pits a minor upgrade. There is now seating, and the room itself has been given a more "crafter-friendly" atmosphere.

Good call.

I've always preferred the roasting pits myself. There's a nice, homey shit-fire there and crims can escape up the back way if they see a templar come in the front way.

It's far more appropriate crafting place for indies than sitting at the bar.

[dumbstruck]

A small thing perhaps - but hopefully it'll make a little difference.

In response to the "shouldn't craft at the bar, but don't want to isolate to craft" I've given the Gaj roasting pits a minor upgrade. There is now seating, and the room itself has been given a more "crafter-friendly" atmosphere.

Good call.

I've always preferred the roasting pits myself. There's a nice, homey shit-fire there and crims can escape up the back way if they see a templar come in the front way.

It's far more appropriate crafting place for indies than sitting at the bar.

This. I deadass won't craft at a bar. In a tavern at a spot away from the bar where its sufficiently more comfortable for or towardthat end? Absolutely. Glad to see that this went in in the roasting pits. If I ever play a Nakki again (I'm sure I will at some point) I'll definitely check it out and its still a damn sight more appropriate than in the main room of a tavern. Now if only I could still eavesdrop on convos with listen on stalker/adventurer types without giving up my sub for it, lol.

[Barsook]

Then can we just have a public crafting hall in both City-States?

[Lutagar]

can we have a crafting hall that has a sparring pit so there's a reason for pcs to congregate and hang out beyond bar idling

[Barsook]

Yes. Please???

[Patuk]

Allanak had one of these, and people burnt it down. Can't have shit in the south.

[Barsook]

A tavern closer to the Byn and Merchant Estates in Allanak rather than on the other side of the city. Or shrink Allanak like Tuluk.

Going to expand on my post here. I noticed that most of the clan compounds are all east of the Bazaar and hence why I said (and agreed with others on Discord on this topic) this. There is nothing to really do on the west side expect idle in an empty tavern or look in some of the shops along the roads. It would better if there was a tavern that had a bar and roasting pits with a crafting hall next door. Perhaps some apartments also.

It would be nice to have a tavern plus crafting hall in Tuluk also.

[Barsook]

Allanak had one of these, and people burnt it down. Can't have shit in the south.

Was that the Den? Or FOIC?

[Patuk]

Allanak had one of these, and people burnt it down. Can't have shit in the south.

Was that the Den? Or FOIC?

Yes.

[Dresan]

I have not really played a character that is allowed or is even willing to openly walk around in a city for a long time and that likely won't change.

When you play in the city, there is a high risk you'll eventually lose the political game with someone and have a templar walk up to you and end you regardless of your race/class/skill/bribes etc. This isn't a 'templar' problem or even bad thing because some people do enjoy IC politics, however, I find politics and even clans(that should protect you from politics) somewhat boring even for my mundane character concepts. For clans the restrictions suck, but personally being given everything on a silver platter also makes the game less fun for me.

In short, I really just personally prefer to play indies for the fun and challenge. And again to clarify this is to no fault of a game but due to this preference I tend to play characters that just avoid cities just from the start.

Some things that might get me to interact with cities, or use them as a starting point:

-Apartments are very dangerous and useless for established characters, especially in cities. Apartments are death traps for everyone and they suck ass for storage. If you are inside an apartment you should be able to flee through close/locked doors. Also I am also almost convinced that perhaps apartments should be no hide rooms (but allow sneak).
-There should be more automated services for established, rich citizens of a city such as guards that walk around with you and protect your apartment door while you are inside.
-At night there should be sparring pits in taverns for limits hours during the night, where people can pay to spar each other and others can watch from above. This will help with skill grind and make entertaining shows, the fact they are so visible and limited to over night hours will limit abuse. Crimcode should go off if a murder occurs adding more layers of fun.

Finally, because things can go sour in a city so quickly, its very hard to choose a solely city based character that has no ability to escape outside or go stealth at a moments notice. This is doubly so in Tuluk, because it lacks the utility that comes from being able to run into the rinth. As mentioned all resources are outside, there is no market where you need to pay 1000 coins to enter just to see unique and special wares or an NPCs where you can request some vNPC hunter/grebber go find you resource X at Y price. Therefore, I believe that if you impoved rooftops, sewers and surrounding locations as places where people could start fresh than people would be more invest in playing/interacting in cities.

Onr last sore point includes travel between civilization hubs, I've mentioned before but a player should not require direction sense skill to travel from one civilization hub to another. These should be beaten paths at this point and direction sense should only be required when you step off those paths and decide to explore the wastes. It basically cornholes players into choosing something like stalker or raider that has the ability to travel through storms whenever they want just to search for interaction vs classes that often only have the ability to survive in cities alone.  This is also because playing a raider class is easier and more convinient than finding a bynner willing to take you to and fro civilization hubs. Again if the ability to travel between civilization hubs was improved I think it would make people be willing to commit time and character concepts to solely city characters.

[Kryos]

I've said this in many threads over the years, but I'll say it again here.  Crime code's gotta change.

I'd much rather have Romeo and Juilet style duels(be it blades or words) between house underlings that are 'ignored' (or better yet affect social standing or are bet on) while breeds get their teeth kicked in by Tor, Oash, or Borsail agents for the mighty crime of 'being there when something happened.'  Think rough and tumble, but not an active war zone.

Non consensual murder attempts in the city are always going to be stickler, as most tier 3 - 5 players don't want to roll over and die because someone handed 100 'sid to some tier 1 or 2 rinther.  I can't bring myself to play crafter oriented classes for this reason.  On the other hand, Allanak's current fortress of solitude approach for clanned bodies is pretty damned depressing and unfun.  Apartments/hallways should likely be no hide.  Cities shouldn't have anti-magick shells either.  Again, its a tough balancing act, but force aggressors to have to be clever or take risks without making people invulnerable.  In general, though, I hate the rinth

At least for Allanak.  Tuluk's its own beast and I haven't been north since it was reopened, so no comment.

Miscreant is borked, borked, borked as a class.  For me, no cap, it existing is enough to disincline me from doing city roles with any frequency.  Theivery goes from 0% to 100% success rates, there's no counter play besides not being there, and neither are fun.

I will say a little something for all those people talking about Templars indiscriminately murdering PCs.  When I played one I had a staff member on me EVERY time I had an adversarial (heck just about any) encounter (I wished up about it 99% of the time but most times eyes were on me beforehand) and even got chastised preemptively for just talking to a PC, let alone doing anything bad to them.   Maybe any given player gets a longer or shorter leash, but I've only ever seen 1 templar 'step over the line' and a Red Robe showed up to correct that issue as part of the story.  I don't get the vitriol, but hating on Templars is one of the classic rotating threads, so maybe its just in vogue presently. 

Give players more agency on how they 'set up' their Templar, if anything, and more active goals to be chasing.  These should be leadership roles for the city state faction that's reaching out to struggle with whatever's in need of a good enemy and need to be thus created, equipped, and set upon.

Again, no comment on Tuluki Templars, ignorance is bliss.

Lastly, I'd say for me cities always felt weird because we as players are forced to play a low fantasy, low power game while all the NPCs are playing a power fantasy game where they could fart every and all pcs out existence if they ate a spicy scrab steak.    And most of the NPCs doing this are in the cities.  That to me presents a fundamental situation I don't really like.  That rabbit hole is probably too meta for this thread though.

[Windstorm]

...Apartments/hallways should likely be no hide...

I love this idea.

As it is, apartments all over the place are sitting completely empty out of fear they're inescapable death traps.

One of the main appeals of cities, I would think, is that PCs can have a home there. But they're just so easy to break into and most on here are utterly terrified of them - myself included.