Poisoning

[LindseyBalboa]

I don't think the game has benefitted by suddenly removing the ability to make poisons from classes that relied on making poisons. I would like to see the brew requirement to make poisons removed except for maybe the highest level poisons.

I think that would bring some balance to the system that was changed suddenly alongside a lot of other changes that changed combat dynamics, by making poisons slightly more accessible to be made, used, practiced, and deployed; however, while still keeping only the most advanced poisons able to be made by characters that have dedicated everything to poisoning.

[mansa]

Currently:
* If you have the brew skill, you can brew poisons that cannot be used on weapons.  The poison items you create can only be used in pour/eat/mash format, and NOT on weapons.
* If you want to poison a weapon, you need to gather the poison items from the wilderness, and use them.
* If you want to craft the most deadly poison items, and use them on a weapon, you need to have the poison items from the wilderness PLUS the crafted poisons in the mash format.  You craft the mash and the poison item from the wilderness together to make the most deadly poison.

[Riev]

In addition to all of that:

Poisons now have levels of severity, and a single dose of mild bloodburn is actually CONCERNING now.

[Brokkr]

I don't think the game has benefitted by suddenly removing the ability to make poisons from classes that relied on making poisons.

Could you clarify?  No class was able to make poisons, so unsure what you mean.

All that was removed was the ability to get the strongest poisons from natural sources, since there was no poison severity levels they were all the same.

[betweenford]

Currently:
* If you have the brew skill, you can brew poisons that cannot be used on weapons.  The poison items you create can only be used in pour/eat/mash format, and NOT on weapons.

If you make a vial you can poison food.

[LindseyBalboa]

I don't think the game has benefitted by suddenly removing the ability to make poisons from classes that relied on making poisons.

Could you clarify?  No class was able to make poisons, so unsure what you mean.

All that was removed was the ability to get the strongest poisons from natural sources, since there was no poison severity levels they were all the same.

You're right, and thanks for asking for clarification. I meant that there's a huge jump now in severity from what I keep being told, from a leaf to a mash. I think there should be more accessibility for classes that don't have brew. I'm not suggesting a huge change but more of a minor tweak, as classes that relied on efficient poisoning lost a lot of utility in that regard if they can only reach the lowest level of poisoning now.

[Riev]

I think a "poisoned gland" is still decently powerful. You just cannot reach "maximum levels of potency" without mixing that gland with the right herbs from a master brewer.

[betweenford]

I think a "poisoned gland" is still decently powerful. You just cannot reach "maximum levels of potency" without mixing that gland with the right herbs from a master brewer.

Most glands are in the range of weak quality poison. Most people will probably resist your weak quality poison. A stalker or miscreant as it stands can usually make about average+(boosted with tools of course its beyond that) poisons with very weak sources of natural poison.

IMO a bigger concern to me is that most people do not know how to make bloodburn or grishen or skelle with herbs, and so for those people without access to another herbalist who does know, their poison might as well be useless against higher endurance characters.

[ShaiHulud]

And all this needs to be explored ic.

[Brokkr]

I don't think the game has benefitted by suddenly removing the ability to make poisons from classes that relied on making poisons.

Could you clarify?  No class was able to make poisons, so unsure what you mean.

All that was removed was the ability to get the strongest poisons from natural sources, since there was no poison severity levels they were all the same.

You're right, and thanks for asking for clarification. I meant that there's a huge jump now in severity from what I keep being told, from a leaf to a mash. I think there should be more accessibility for classes that don't have brew. I'm not suggesting a huge change but more of a minor tweak, as classes that relied on efficient poisoning lost a lot of utility in that regard if they can only reach the lowest level of poisoning now.

Yes, Scout and Infiltrator lost some utility.  However, that was always meant as a secondary method for them, not some class hinging ability that they rely on for a lot of utility.

[najdorf]

I'll be a conservative here, and discourage any major change / revert to back.
Was it a bad decision? I personally think was. Previous system was much better for playability.
Should we revert, then?
No, because the new state has encouraged many players / dynamics to develop. A change here would destabilize a lot of these dynamics.
There are many players who chose their current classes, perhaps because of the new brew / poison system.

[LindseyBalboa]

I don't think the game has benefitted by suddenly removing the ability to make poisons from classes that relied on making poisons.

Could you clarify?  No class was able to make poisons, so unsure what you mean.

All that was removed was the ability to get the strongest poisons from natural sources, since there was no poison severity levels they were all the same.

You're right, and thanks for asking for clarification. I meant that there's a huge jump now in severity from what I keep being told, from a leaf to a mash. I think there should be more accessibility for classes that don't have brew. I'm not suggesting a huge change but more of a minor tweak, as classes that relied on efficient poisoning lost a lot of utility in that regard if they can only reach the lowest level of poisoning now.

Yes, Scout and Infiltrator lost some utility.  However, that was always meant as a secondary method for them, not some class hinging ability that they rely on for a lot of utility.

They were the second best poisoning classes, and they weren't supposed to rely on it? It's the first thing mentioned in "help infiltrator" when listing off their weapons: "When it is time to strike, the Infiltrator attacks from the shadows with a broad arsenal of weapons - tainted blades, sapping bludgeons or the silent bite of a blowgun's."

Why not just add jman brew branched off poison? Out of curiosity, as I assume that was tossed around.

There are many players who chose their current classes, perhaps because of the new brew / poison system.

There are players of characters that had a major change happen while playing them, too, but I feel what you're saying. I don't think it was a bad change; I think there needs to be some continued adjusting and refining.

[Yelinak]

I do feel for infiltrators in particular. The change to weapons brought a huge nerf to sap and backstab. The latter already relied quite a bit on poisons to be truly worthwhile, and now that you can't leverage the previously overpowered nature of choice weapons such as the hawk whatever halfsword, the actual damage of stabbing weapons is ass. They're very reliant on poisons now but don't really have the means to do it to the extent that the helpfile suggests. Sap, since it can be used with a two-handed omegamaul and is mastered exclusively by a class that appears to have naturally high strength, is a little less inconvenienced by this change (though the nerf is still very noticeable). Backstab now feels like it's barely worth using if you're not pairing it with a heavy element of poisoneering, and the classes that get high backstab are not good enough with poisons. Infiltrator gets advanced poisoning and no brew, and enforcer doesn't get either of them at all.

If you could count on others being in the areas where it makes sense to play an infiltrator, that might alleviate the issue; but you cannot. Enforcers can live on the meta of etwo bludgeoning and sap but infiltrators don't really have that luxury. It feels like that class got shafted more than anyone.

[Brokkr]

They were the second best poisoning classes, and they weren't supposed to rely on it?

Previously, did you poison your weapons when you didn't have a cure handy?  Was it a
Poison that could kill you?  I said that because they weren't given brew in the first place, to make it a bit more when opportunity arises.  It isn't a statement on skill level, it is a statement on overall capability.  And it was outsized, because of poisons not wearing off weapons, and the most dangerous poisons to have at your disposal to use on someone were not the most dangerous poisons to apply.  Which was quite obviously not ideal.

[Halaster]

...what I keep being told...

I encourage you, if you're interested in it, to play one and explore it for yourself and form your own opinions.  People giving their opinions are always filtered through their personal experience, prejudices, etc.  You'll never really know if you like it or not until you try it yourself.

That said, I can tell you that there's a 0 chance we're reverting it to the way it was.  But we're absolutely open to feedback on tweaks and modifications to the new system, and I encourage people to give their ideas.

[LindseyBalboa]

They were the second best poisoning classes, and they weren't supposed to rely on it?

Previously, did you poison your weapons when you didn't have a cure handy?  Was it a
Poison that could kill you?  I said that because they weren't given brew in the first place, to make it a bit more when opportunity arises.  It isn't a statement on skill level, it is a statement on overall capability.  And it was outsized, because of poisons not wearing off weapons, and the most dangerous poisons to have at your disposal to use on someone were not the most dangerous poisons to apply.  Which was quite obviously not ideal.

Those two points - poison not decaying, dangerous poisons being easy to apply - can still remain  solved while giving infiltrator/scout access to some brewing, which is needed now to utilize poisons in a meaningful manner - which at least with infiltrator is mentioned specifically and first as their weapon of choice in their help file.

...what I keep being told...

I encourage you, if you're interested in it, to play one and explore it for yourself and form your own opinions.  People giving their opinions are always filtered through their personal experience, prejudices, etc.  You'll never really know if you like it or not until you try it yourself.

That said, I can tell you that there's a 0 chance we're reverting it to the way it was.  But we're absolutely open to feedback on tweaks and modifications to the new system, and I encourage people to give their ideas.

I was just saying "what I keep getting told" to avoid giving out character details. I definitely have had experience with the new and old system, which is why I'm comfortable giving feedback. Inf/scout need to be able to make better poisons, or apply the poisons they can readily use more effectively.

[Armaddict]

As per usual, I'd argue that poisoning is far more of a combat skill than a utility skill, and it makes more sense for infiltrators and Scouts to be good at it than their miscreant/stalker counterparts, but that's a class design issue that has been hashed over.

In regards to the actual message here, I think it's far more healthy for you to have to make actual decisions as far as how you want to be specialized and approach situations than expect every weakness to be eliminated.  You chose a main class that uses poison, but nothing to make it so that poisoning became its deal; you are a natural poisoner.  If you want super potent poisons, you will have to find someone who makes super potent poisons.  This makes sense to me in a gameplay perspective and, with a lot more fringe cases, in a realism sense.  While in the realism sense, there was a lot more of 'knowing which is which' to establish potent poisons, we have to deal with carried-over knowledge on a vastly smaller database of plants and animals.  In trade, this knowledge of 'how to make it' kind of substitutes for the archaic knowledge that had to be taught or learned over a long period of time in the real world past.

Hell.  I'd even toy with the idea of lowering poison skills even further except for two subclasses, and splitting up the brew skill into one that allowed use of potent poisons, but only week antidotes, and include the poisoning skill at a high level, and the other being high level antidotes with low level poisons and a high bandage skill or something.  I'd make you sacrifice a lot of the things that make 'standalone' characters in order to get that kind of independence in what is (generally) a far more deeply PvP oriented field.  Otherwise, I like the risk of you having to make contacts, have your intentions sniffed, have the possibility of having someone tell someone else they saw you getting this delivered, etc.