Reinstating the karma timer

[Dracul]

Thought on reinstating the karma timer? Do we want to have this as a player discussion (imms)?

[Yelinak]

For races and magicker subclasses, yes, I think this is in order. There are just too many karma races and magickers, to put it plainly.

For mundane subs, no, and I think these should be made 0-karma in the first place. I say that as someone who has access to them, not out of self-interest.

It's getting out of hand with the 'gicks and the HGs, to be quite honest.

[Dracul]

For mundane subs, no, and I think these should be made 0-karma in the first place. I say that as someone who has access to them, not out of self-interest.

Agreed on the mundane subguilds. I was it brought up with a WHY are those gatekept by karma? Is it because they require more document sensitive roleplay, no, the answer given was that they are just that much better. Are newbs not supposed to get as codedly skilled as older players if they can survive as long as them?? Those should definitely be opened up. It'll take enough skill fails to get that subguild up to its max that a new player will still struggle to get there.

[Jarvis]

Both sides of the argument are valid points.

There are definitely too many cracked up wizards, sorcerers and muscle-bound killing machines running around.
On the other hand:

I really, REALLY hate waiting 3 months to try/play a character that I might not like or might get an incredibly unpractical stat roll (because even prioritizing you can just strike out).

I say slap back the 7 (or was it 8 ) karma points for additional vetting

[WarriorPoet]

I say slap back the 7 (or was it 8 ) karma points for additional vetting

[mansa]

My suggestion is different:
Rather than prevent individual players from playing a whole scope of character types, prevent the player population as a whole from playing specific character types.  (Potentially, you can have 30 players all have their karma timers complete, and all 30 players can submit muls at the same time. The karma timer is a bad solution.)

We currently do this with sorcerers.  However, it should be automated to reduce workload on the staff.



This is my idea:

Once a week, there is a query on the active player population, which I classify as all characters, dead or alive, that have logged in within the last 10 days.  A tally of character population breakdown is done, and then the script checks against a config file that determines how many half-giants are too many half-giants in the game, or how many shadow dancer drovians are too many of that type in the game, and then it prevents those options from being picked in the character generation flow.

The config file can be updated on-the-fly to increase or decrease the cut-off values.


This should flatten out the perceived population explosions of certain types of karma classes and races.


Example:

Karma Race/Class	Current Population	Cutoff Limit	Action
Mul	5	3	Closed
Half-Giant	10	6	Closed
Thryzn	5	5	Closed
Desert Elf	8	15	Open
City Elf	7	100	Open
Half-Elf	10	100	Open
Dwarf	12	50	Open
Human	70	100	Open
Devastation Krathi	2	2	Closed
Agony Krathi	0	2	Open
Guile Krathi	0	4	Open
Healing Vivaduan	3	4	Open
Corruption Vivaduan	3	4	Open
Creation Vivaduan	0	4	Open

[LindseyBalboa]

Maybe instead, muls rage more often and the way they have to prevent rage isn't flawless. And the first targets they go for are the closest - anyone they're following, guarding, or guarded by. Make them actually dangerous to play for those around them.

And HGs need an actual coded penalty more than "bad agility so OHK only happens every 20 seconds." HGs have been independent GMH hunters and similar roles (several times, not attacking any players because it's been happening), which is literally the last thing you'd send an HG off to do by docs. They need constant supervision or they just go off and do the next cool thing they see. Put in a timer that pops up at a random time over a random but long interval that's like "whatever you're interacting with now is more interesting that's your friend now" and make that as hard a requirement as elves not using mounts.

Or something!

[Halcyon]

I say slap back the 7 (or was it 8 ) karma points for additional vetting

WP, I respect your view on Arm rp over time.  Are you finding rp so bad from "karma players" that you put in player complaints?

[Jarvis]

I say slap back the 7 (or was it 8 ) karma points for additional vetting

WP, I respect your view on Arm rp over time.  Are you finding rp so bad from "karma players" that you put in player complaints?

I don't think I've ever put a player complaint to be honest. And its not necessarily that the RP is bad, I don't think I've met anyone playing a 'gick, half-giant or mul who didn't blend in with the world around them and play them game accordingly.

However, there is definitely a clear difference in someone picking a race (ala mul or half-giant) in order to make their combat role powerful, and people who genuinely enjoy playing out the races with all their flaws and quirks (this goes for our friendly neighbourhood Hogwarts rejects too). Its less about the quality of RP and the "are they making a build or are they making a character". I've been guilty of this, still am at points, and I'm not particularly new either. The additional layers would help people get that out of their system before reaching the really powerful roles I think.

That said, these are the points of an adrenaline junkie who almost exclusively plays combat actionmen.

[tiny rainbow]

There should be no problem with taking time out to play a normal character, but people are like... It's like an upper and lower class of players that are better than everyone else we just need to encourage people to play them, by making the karma timer only go down while playing normal roles, so we don't have this divide between old and newer players

It also feels like we're in a situation where newer players are going for sponsored roles where the older players are avoiding, that's probably why we're lacking on direction at the high level with plots, maybe we also need more coded powers for political chars as well so they aren't kinda throttled by having to wait for requests when things get real

City army roles seemed like they had good experienced players in them, whereas now those people are getting sucked off on the karma character conveyor belt instead of having characters in between - Less people are wanting to play traditional roles such as soldiers because of the karma options - so we've got a situation where these roles are getting by with skeleton crews of people who are often new players OOCly, so without karma roles we've got a situation where people just go from one karma character to the next and basically are newbie-bullies



What we need is some way to motivate people to play mundane characters - Bring back the karma timer, and make it so people have some motivation to chip in to helping with the other roles There DOES need to be a thing that encourages people to not go from one top tier to the other, and we already had that system, I think we've seen proof that it was good design

[Nao]

While I dislike being 'the mundane PC that's the odd one out' (and being treated like a newbie  ), I'd rather have that than no activity because some players would rather not play than play a 0 or 1 karma role. I also expect things to settle down eventually. Keep the timers off.

[tiny rainbow]

Things will settle down argument might've worked some months ago, but what we've seen instead is that without a system people don't follow a system that isn't there

[Veselka]

No to karma timer.

Yes to hard caps.

Also there should be more options for how to use your karma such as:
-Skill Boosts at character generation
-Role Rosters available at chargen before even naming your Pc.
This would look like:

AVAILABLE ROLES TO APPLY FOR: (Select letter for more information)
[A] Byn Trooper (1 Karma Required) (2 Remaining).
Gemmed Magicker (Drovian) (3 Karma Required) (1 Remaining)
[C] Tuluki Legionnaire (1 Karma) (2 remaining)

Selecting it takes it off the roster when approved in the queue.

Roles come with mild skill bumps, clan gear, and rank.

This also allows Staff to approve low hanging fruit characters that they might need to boost an area of the game. I know I would play these roles more than Day 0 Scrub when possible to jump into the action.

[Nao]

Things will settle down argument might've worked some months ago, but what we've seen instead is that without a system people don't follow a system that isn't there

The change is barely more than three months old.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58528.msg1081992.html#msg1081992

[Riev]

Give it more than a single PC generation (90d) before you decide you don't like it, because you saw a few Karma PCs.

Some people that got to three karma (after taking 20 years to get there) really want to try out their options.

I don't want anyone to take it away from a player who has done nothing wrong, because someone else did something you didn't like.

Edited by Hestia because there's salt, and there's TOS violation. Ne'er the twain shall meet.

[Halcyon]

This was the point I tried to make with WarriorPoet.   We have an appeals and corrections system.   Has it been attempted, or is it undesirable in curbing abuses?

[tiny rainbow]

The characters come a lot faster than 90 days though.

You say people are not doing anything wrong, but they actively are, even if it's not against the rules, it's detrimental to the rest of the game, and if people can't recognise that, maybe they shouldn't be allowed to play those roles at all, instead? Maybe people being so entitled that they pick more powerful roles persistently instead of trying to make the roleplay of the game more interesting is actually the problem?

Maybe you're part of the problem, Riev?

There's no rule being broken, what would people even report?
(and anyway, in most situations like that, 90% of information available is not available to players - there has to be staff oversight over most things, I'm hoping with the website improvements it will become the norm to skim through logs for weirdness instead of relying on players to spot stuff)

[Riev]

You have no idea what I play, how I play it, or what I bring to the game or take away from it.

Forcing me to wait ANY period of time because you don't want me to play these roles is not fine with me. If the issue is "too many magickers", then look at Mansa's suggestion of limiting active magickers at any given time.

But you want me to not be able to play high level roles back to back, and so far the only reason I've seen is because "other people don't yet have 3 karma" or "other people like to play more normal roles".

Why should I be forced to play risk-averse for the first 90days of play just so that I can play that other role I wanted to play, but chose this one instead? That is not beneficial for the game, either.

[tiny rainbow]

I made it personal because you decided to make it personal edited to remove a reference that no longer applies. But it's not anything against any particular character or characters, but it's not good for the game overall.

I think we've proved that karma timers were all that held back from abuse, and were an important part of the game that stopped a landslide effect of everything pouring away in one direction.

[Jarvis]

I made it personal because you decided to make it personal edited to remove a reference that no longer applies. But it's not anything against any particular character or characters, but it's not good for the game overall.

I think we've proved that karma timers were all that held back from abuse, and were an important part of the game that stopped a landslide effect of everything pouring away in one direction.

Karma timers do not moderate abuse. It is absurd to think so. If anything what they will accomplish is:

-More careful twinking in more isolated/avoidant scenarios until the character is obscenely powerful
-Loss of playerbase as people wait to play what they want to play

Source: I play like a crackhead and I'm not smart enough for timers to dissuade me from doing so

And who is this "they". People speak with a specific incident in their mind, but honestly I very rarely see these incidents happen.
I have not the smallest idea of what you're talking about, and I do not think you do truly either.

There are more "special" characters running around than I would like, but you make it sound like every other mul/half-giant/gick player is going around killing elf children and subduing you off cliffs without a line of emotes.

[Brytta Léofa]

Once a week, there is a query on the active player population, which I classify as all characters, dead or alive, that have logged in within the last 10 days.  A tally of character population breakdown is done, and then the script checks against a config file that determines how many half-giants are too many half-giants in the game, or how many shadow dancer drovians are too many of that type in the game, and then it prevents those options from being picked in the character generation flow.

This is a good idea.
It's fair.
We all get the idea that magickers, muls, etc. should be somewhat rare.
Staff can make the thresholds as permissive or restrictive as they like.
It gives people options: okay, I can't play a whiran now but there's space for a krathi. (As long as demand isn't way higher than capacity.*)
Staff could allow special apps to bypass the thresholds, for when you really really want the concept.

* but tbh the most likely outcome is that we would see more diversity in types of magicker.

[mansa]

Once a week, there is a query on the active player population, which I classify as all characters, dead or alive, that have logged in within the last 10 days.  A tally of character population breakdown is done, and then the script checks against a config file that determines how many half-giants are too many half-giants in the game, or how many shadow dancer drovians are too many of that type in the game, and then it prevents those options from being picked in the character generation flow.

This is a good idea.
It's fair.
We all get the idea that magickers, muls, etc. should be somewhat rare.
Staff can make the thresholds as permissive or restrictive as they like.
It gives people options: okay, I can't play a whiran now but there's space for a krathi. (As long as demand isn't way higher than capacity.*)
Staff could allow special apps to bypass the thresholds, for when you really really want the concept.

* but tbh the most likely outcome is that we would see more diversity in types of magicker.

The other thing is...

The reason you are being rejected is implied that you're being rejected because there are too many of that type, rather that some arbitrary timer.

[tiny rainbow]

Karma timers do not moderate abuse. It is absurd to think so.

Of course they do, the system worked for years and there wasn't posts about situations like this. The cause and effect isn't exactly rocket science here.

And people that deliberately avoid RP with other characters to gain skills are already shouted at by staff, that's part of the responsibility of karma roles, saying "If you don't do this, we'll do worse things" Doesn't really give the greatest impression that this isn't an entitlement issue?

[Riev]

Karma timers do not moderate abuse. It is absurd to think so.

Of course they do, the system worked for years and there wasn't posts about situations like this. The cause and effect isn't exactly rocket science here.

And people that deliberately avoid RP with other characters to gain skills are already shouted at by staff, that's part of the responsibility of karma roles, saying "If you don't do this, we'll do worse things" Doesn't really give the greatest impression that this isn't an entitlement issue?

What years did it "work" for, considering 3 months ago it was decided to change back to something it was also "working for years with"?

[tiny rainbow]

Seems like the entire game's history never had a problem like this before until it was changed? I do remember it was said that if it isn't working it might go back, I think we proved it doesn't work

[Jarvis]

Seems like the entire game's history never had a problem like this before until it was changed?

[mansa]

Seems like the entire game's history never had a problem like this before until it was changed? I do remember it was said that if it isn't working it might go back, I think we proved it doesn't work

Initial Response from the playerbase after the 'karma timers' were removed (Oct 16, 2022):
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52143.msg1081920.html#msg1081920

And one of the most popular threads in the past 20 years, about the times when 'karma timers' were not yet implemented:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,28005.0.html

[tiny rainbow]

Yeah, it was hard to know without giving it a chance, so commenting at the time seemed like it would be silly - I think there has been a chance now, and it didn't work...

It's interesting that this was already tried once before and the same conclusion came, why did we do it again? xD

[mansa]

Yeah, it was hard to know without giving it a chance, so commenting at the time seemed like it would be silly - I think there has been a chance now, and it didn't work...

It's interesting that this was already tried once before and the same conclusion came, why did we do it again? xD

Because players wanted it:
"Feedback on playing and log-ins" - https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58471.0.html

[Inks]

I was always pro karma timer, personally. And still am. Have seen a lot more revenge pcs since.

[tiny rainbow]

Because players wanted it

Hah Yeah giving some people everything they ask for at the expense of everyone else is one of those things, sometimes there's a thing as listening too much sometimes... I remember a big commercial online game did a survey of how many actually joined in OOC discussions, and it was 1% of the numbers compared to real people playing, not sure what the ratio here is but it'd be interesting to see.

[Brokkr]

Things will settle down argument might've worked some months ago, but what we've seen instead is that without a system people don't follow a system that isn't there

I had assumed everyone would have anticipated that there would be pent up demand, and we would see that play out.

I give it 2 real life years, or so, to stabilize thoroughly, through players working through characters and concepts.



What we might find is different is that the players aren't coming at the game in the same fashion, from when karma was used to limit race/guild choice largely as it does now.  If player's mindsets have changed so that they are going into a character with a "build" in mind, or worried about how to optimize combat potential, you are going to end up with a game vastly different than where the player with a new character had their primary focus on how to dress entirely in green, accented with purple and how to keep their wardrobe rotating.  And that will be hard to address, because it is a player preference and swings of the Nerf bat (now 1d8) are unlikely to be welcomed.  There will be those players that want everyone else focused on how to coordinate their outfits while they are the exception that is focused on PvP optimization.  Get enough of those, and combat-code focused characters are not the exception, the hardcore RP person focused on their outfit is.

[Dracul]

I changed my vote to other because of Mansa's suggestion as well as Riev pointing out it's only been a recent change and yeah, that explains the splash of karma characters.

[Halaster]

My suggestion is different:
Rather than prevent individual players from playing a whole scope of character types, prevent the player population as a whole from playing specific character types.

I really like the idea.  However, a genuine question I'd be interested to hear everyone's opinion on:

If you have a cap, it limits someone from playing what they want.  They may wait for the cap to be down, and may choose to not play while they wait.  How do you think this would be different than a full karma timer?  (I have opinions, but don't want to cloud the question with them, would rather hear peoples' answers).

[Inks]

Or they murder someone just to create a slot. I think caps are the wrong way. The timer system was better than that.

I still think mundanes having a higher skillcap for every single main class skill is cooler. And move hgs to 3 karma no specapp maybe because there is too many hah.

[Jimpka_Moss]

To strictly answer this question:

If I am capped with what I can play, I will still play, and simply employ options available. If I am told there are too many whirans, I'll play something else, but it might still be at the same karma tier.  There, an answer.

Yet,
If I'm capped out of playing all karma options, I'm likely not ending up playing a leader, or playing a char meant to enhance play for others. (With each tier of karma, I feel there is an implicit request that I give others more RP, consideration, time, and vulnerabilities, etc.)

I would be in favor of a 'You cannot pick Whiran: There is too much wind in Arm currently' or something about playable independent muls being at max, try a clanned Mul today! gdb.links and stuff.

[tiny rainbow]

I feel like maybe that people are choosing high karma roles again and again is one of those things that makes me worry about if these people are really interested in roleplay as much, or just kind of (literally) power tripping, Brokkr's post was good too and it does make me wonder about how many good roleplayers players the game has haemorraged because of having to deal with karma characters that sometimes really don't add so much to the game roleplay-wise (I definitely remember this issue before the changes with sorcerers that a few different seemed mainly like they were just killing people en masse because they could, one I know for sure that never had any interaction with one before just deciding going to kill someone that day - it's like sometimes people think that is what an antag is, without much more depth or plots, not about anyone in particular, but maybe standards didn't used to be high enough or something), and have gone on to other places that have a more roleplay focus instead like MUSHes etc

What we sometimes don't consider is how this can affect other players who often are not willing or emotionally up to engaging in these kind of sometimes-harsh discussions where you can get sworn and shouted at on the forums, I don't think most people make "leaving" posts either so for seeing one there's like who knows posts that never got made? It's probably worth setting up something to track and notice and add to a list when a player just silently stops logging on and has left for greener grass, so it's noticed and there's some kind of reflection on what might have caused it

I'm not sure about that whole idea cap idea, I guess it'd spread the roles out a little, but it wouldn't deal with the issue of people not wanting to "slum it" in the roles with the newbies with less karma? (I think some clans can seem a bit like an Armageddon Gated Community kinda, because the new people are not getting a chance to meet or interact with ostensibly-good roleplayers ) I think a karma timer is the only thing that can do what the game needs, to encourage more of a spread of high to low karma roles really, there needs to be motivation to play the other roles than just the "codedly better" ones, different roleplay experiences need to be encouraged somehow, the karma timer was the only thing that could really do that in a fair way it seemed like.



It could be nice to have encouragement on selection for people to play stuff like Arm/Byn Sergeant etc, when more experienced people might not always consider those roles in the same way as they do others (but are very high-impact on other players, especially newbies) ...but maybe a little more obscured than implying that the "head of Allanak crimcode" position is empty to people making a potentially criminal character lol (maybe if it says a certain type of role but not which clan is open, if you are interested in this, select this, but cannot be taken back once you receive the OOC info - in the same way that clan docs requests should give something separate than giving IC clan secrets boards)

[whengravityfails]

I'm definitely in favor of some of the suggestions put forth - Mansa's idea on hard caps on races and gicks, for one, along with incentives to play normie mundanes using karma - better starting stats, gear, skills - in a role that won't require oversight and tie up staff time. (People who have made AoD Private in the past being allowed to step into it again, same with Byn Troopers, etc).

Caps and incentives. Taking away the timer now would just seem like a punishment for everyone when it isn't necessary. What's necessary is trimming down high powered roles without forcing people out of an entire blanket level of concepts.

[Nao]

There are a lot of 'shiny new options' for magickers right now, too. If you like to play magickers, chances are good you'll want to play an Elkrosian, or try to get upgraded to a full mage, or play one of the "new types of magickers" that were announced, or just play a delf in one of the recently opened tribes. Maybe all of those. You'll see a lot of these character types for a while because people want to try them out, but it's not necessarily permanent.

My suggestion is different:
Rather than prevent individual players from playing a whole scope of character types, prevent the player population as a whole from playing specific character types.

I really like the idea.  However, a genuine question I'd be interested to hear everyone's opinion on:

If you have a cap, it limits someone from playing what they want.  They may wait for the cap to be down, and may choose to not play while they wait.  How do you think this would be different than a full karma timer?  (I have opinions, but don't want to cloud the question with them, would rather hear peoples' answers).

I would like it less than a full karma timer.

I don't die often, and I haven't played a mage for more than a year now. Once I die, I'd like to play one again, and I'd hate to see "no, you can't, we have too many already, roll up a mundane and try again next time". The karma timer was more fair, with a guarantee of getting a chance every two to three months.

[Patuk]

I have played this game for a little over a decade. I've seen and played full mages, half mages, with karma timers, without, and I'll try detailing my perspective below. We'll save quick remarks for the Discord; the gdb is for effortposts!

tl;dr: people want to have fun and will pick what's fun for them

Longer version:

If I look back to what things were like when I started, what was different was how VULNERABLE mages were and how little things really catered to them. Full class mages could bring godly artillery-tier power to the front, absolutely, and with no ride/parry/dsense/stealth they also died really really quickly to clever attackers. There were many more gemmed because of the vulnerability, and fewer rando dune mages. There was also only one delf clan and one tribal human clan that'd allow magick in the first place, instead of several of the former and new shit with magick as we do now.

But today? The vulnerability is *gone,* and any mage is as self-sufficient as their scout or stalker class allows. There is no coded reason to prefer bringing mundane fighting dudes when mages are better at it, every single time, no matter the circumstance. We have the mul outpost they can head for and several delven tribes and in general, have many more options both to make their mark upon the world and to not die five days in because a character with zero combat skills just is kinda easy prey for anyone.

Isn't it a little obvious why we might have a couple more mages today than we did way back when?

Mundanes, plainly, just don't keep up. In the lead-up to the 2021 HRPT, the northern soldiers got to do nothing against a cadre of unleashed, better trained, magically amped gemmed nerds. The (H?)RPT of earlier involved a bunch of mundane people get absolutely trounced with no defence either. And it keeps happening, and then we get touched Drovians and the return of chain lightning and reworked sorcerers and reworked mindbenders and all kinds of other stuff.

Mundanes get.. Clans. Clans that get to lose if mages fight back, mostly. They get a northern staff that is fully MIA and gets its own people killed, they get a subclass that gives them toolcrafting and jewelry, guys! They get not to be shunned by other mundanes that hate them anyway while the game's rogue mages cheerily band together. They get to be aides and die young or join a city-state military and be outdone by people who aren't them.

Unless mundane characters get an edge, unless they aren't as codedly gimped, unless playing mundane means a longer grind with less payoff.. Well, I can see why people just kinda wouldn't. Playing a mage means you get friends in all the other rogues, get to be stronger at a much faster rate, and mostly just sacrifice the opportunity to master clayworking. Being mundane gets you hated by people from all the other clans and has people tell you 'um, maybe stay inside' if something nasty is going on out there.

So. Yeah. Let's not reintroduce karma timers or just arbitrarily keep people from playing mages. They're having fun! Don't fault them from having fun!

But, instead, please consider what play is like for all the other characters instead. Give them a good reason to exist, and make this show through in more than just once-a-year event cycles. As-is magick is a plethora of opportunities and choices that makes it attractive to so many that the amount of magickal PCs has risen incredibly high. Until choosing to play a mundane character can somewhat match that, I don't know that I can fault so many people for playing mages. They're just picking the most fun option presented to them.

[Riev]

My last few characters:
mul (that died real quick to another mul)
Nilazi
Psion that accomplished nothing
Vivaduan that I can't quite talk about yet, special apped
Half Giant
Drovian Stalker/Stalker
Breed that died quicker than the mul
Ehrnan Terash


I play a lot of karma/high karma characters. Most of them had more than 90d apart so it did not matter, but in some cases, I had to play carefully and not 'get into stuff' because I did not want to take the risk of 'being forced to play a role I am not interested in'.

Reinstating the timer, at least for me, is not going to do any good. It will make me stop interacting with the chaotic and kill-happy playerbase because I WANT to play this role out.

[Brisket]

Seems like the entire game's history never had a problem like this before until it was changed? I do remember it was said that if it isn't working it might go back, I think we proved it doesn't work

A very, very bold claim.

We've seen player numbers go up, and the instance of muls/magickers seems.. well, massively overstated. 

[dumbstruck]

No. The timer only suppressed player numbers. A prior survey suggested that. The timer was done away with, and sure enough, the average peaktime players increased by about 25% (roughly the number of people who will only play when they have the karma to play what they want to play). So really what you are putting to a vote here is whether or not that 25% of players is still welcome at the game? It only changed to have a karma timer partway through my time here, numbers dropped off, it removed it and they picked right back up. I guess my question is, in a game that so many people are claiming is struggling for players now, which means more, 25% playerbase boost, or having... karma timers and less players? So what do you prefer?

You can't make people play what they don't want to play. You can only make a game that people don't want to play. So that's a no from me. I was completely unsurprised that rolling back the timer saw the people who were sitting it out stop sitting it out.

[mansa]

My suggestion is different:
Rather than prevent individual players from playing a whole scope of character types, prevent the player population as a whole from playing specific character types.

I really like the idea.  However, a genuine question I'd be interested to hear everyone's opinion on:

If you have a cap, it limits someone from playing what they want.  They may wait for the cap to be down, and may choose to not play while they wait.  How do you think this would be different than a full karma timer?  (I have opinions, but don't want to cloud the question with them, would rather hear peoples' answers).

My suggestion is designed to limit the volume of classes and races that the gameworld writes about being rare - to enforce it's rarity amongst the active players.
My suggestion will not fix the problem of class+race+subclass combinations of player power.  That's not the point of the suggestion - the point of the suggestion is to limit the perceived gameworld representation.  We current use this system already for 6 types of subclasses and 1 type of race, and it is manual work for the staff to moderate - but I think it's successful for those classes and subclasses


In my opinion, if you want to make a mul, and you were told "No, you need to wait 480 hours" versus being told "No, the game quota is full", it's a different feeling of rejection.  The first one is the feeling of, "This is arbitrary, I will just wait it out until my timer hits 0 and then apply", and the second one gives the feeling, "Oh, it's because the world is overpopulated with that character type.  I will need to wait for one of them to die, and I have no clue when that is, so I'll just make another character and try that again later."


This change will not solve the problem of class+race+subclass power combinations.  It will allow the staff to codify a rejection system based on population density of their choice.  This is just automating sorcerer or psionicists applications.

[Veselka]

OP is way too anecdotal to be accurate.

Halaster: If I want to apply for a certain archetype of character and find out its full, I would go 'Huh, alright, i'll try something else'. Hard caps wouldn't bother me in the slightest. Particularly if we added in 'Role Applications' to char-gen. Cross-Posted on another thread, but basically allowing people at character creation to see if there are 'Beefed Up Mundane Roles' available. Aide to House Borsail. Byn Trooper. Blah-be-dee-blah.

The Karma Timer sucked because it limited ALL options, not just some. I'm fine with there being hard caps on special (see: more rare) races and archetypes. I'm not cool with the karma timer and telling people 'Play Mundane Or Else'. It's dumb. It's 2023. People will just play other games. I know I did and will.

[Veselka]

My suggestion is different:
Rather than prevent individual players from playing a whole scope of character types, prevent the player population as a whole from playing specific character types.

I really like the idea.  However, a genuine question I'd be interested to hear everyone's opinion on:

If you have a cap, it limits someone from playing what they want.  They may wait for the cap to be down, and may choose to not play while they wait.  How do you think this would be different than a full karma timer?  (I have opinions, but don't want to cloud the question with them, would rather hear peoples' answers).

My suggestion is designed to limit the volume of classes and races that the gameworld writes about being rare - to enforce it's rarity amongst the active players.
My suggestion will not fix the problem of class+race+subclass combinations of player power.  That's not the point of the suggestion - the point of the suggestion is to limit the perceived gameworld representation.  We current use this system already for 6 types of subclasses and 1 type of race, and it is manual work for the staff to moderate - but I think it's successful for those classes and subclasses


In my opinion, if you want to make a mul, and you were told "No, you need to wait 480 hours" versus being told "No, the game quota is full", it's a different feeling of rejection.  The first one is the feeling of, "This is arbitrary, I will just wait it out until my timer hits 0 and then apply", and the second one gives the feeling, "Oh, it's because the world is overpopulated with that character type.  I will need to wait for one of them to die, and I have no clue when that is, so I'll just make another character and try that again later."


This change will not solve the problem of class+race+subclass power combinations.  It will allow the staff to codify a rejection system based on population density of their choice.

Completely agree with this assessment and proposed solution.

[Nao]

My suggestion is different:
Rather than prevent individual players from playing a whole scope of character types, prevent the player population as a whole from playing specific character types.

I really like the idea.  However, a genuine question I'd be interested to hear everyone's opinion on:

If you have a cap, it limits someone from playing what they want.  They may wait for the cap to be down, and may choose to not play while they wait.  How do you think this would be different than a full karma timer?  (I have opinions, but don't want to cloud the question with them, would rather hear peoples' answers).

My suggestion is designed to limit the volume of classes and races that the gameworld writes about being rare - to enforce it's rarity amongst the active players.
My suggestion will not fix the problem of class+race+subclass combinations of player power.  That's not the point of the suggestion - the point of the suggestion is to limit the perceived gameworld representation.  We current use this system already for 6 types of subclasses and 1 type of race, and it is manual work for the staff to moderate - but I think it's successful for those classes and subclasses


In my opinion, if you want to make a mul, and you were told "No, you need to wait 480 hours" versus being told "No, the game quota is full", it's a different feeling of rejection.  The first one is the feeling of, "This is arbitrary, I will just wait it out until my timer hits 0 and then apply", and the second one gives the feeling, "Oh, it's because the world is overpopulated with that character type.  I will need to wait for one of them to die, and I have no clue when that is, so I'll just make another character and try that again later."


This change will not solve the problem of class+race+subclass power combinations.  It will allow the staff to codify a rejection system based on population density of their choice.

I have never not played because I was waiting for a karma timer. I would not play if I got told 'no, sorry, we're full', because I'm waiting for a spot to become available and I want the next available spot.

[Riev]

I have never not played because I was waiting for a karma timer. I would not play if I got told 'no, sorry, we're full', because I'm waiting for a spot to become available and I want the next available spot.

From my end, how is this different from a Special Application that you cannot play RIGHT NOW? Or applying to be a sorceror, but the game is currently full of them?

[Fragmented]

My suggestion is different:
Rather than prevent individual players from playing a whole scope of character types, prevent the player population as a whole from playing specific character types.

I really like the idea.  However, a genuine question I'd be interested to hear everyone's opinion on:

If you have a cap, it limits someone from playing what they want.  They may wait for the cap to be down, and may choose to not play while they wait.  How do you think this would be different than a full karma timer?  (I have opinions, but don't want to cloud the question with them, would rather hear peoples' answers).

I think it comes down to - with 3 karma, entire swathes of character concepts are cut out via Karma timer. If I want to play a mul, a drovian, a havoc elkrosian, etc, etc.. if one or two are blocked because there are too many already, I still have more options. If I roll a mul, and die in couple of rl days, I had to wait 3 months to play another 3 karma type (there are what, 10?), and an entire month to be able to play ANY 0 karma with an esg.

I disagree that there is a problem here at all - our numbers are up, it looks like to me (but mansa can do all the data scraping to prove it if he wants) and this is a good thing. I said it before, and I'll say it again. I'd rather the game be full of 30 halfgiants out of 60 players, than have 20 players with a great mix.

I think that if anything MUST be done, limiting specific special races and/or special subclasses similar to sorcs/psions is a pill that can be swallowed. Would rather see it given more than a few months while people get it out of their system.

**Edited to clarify a poorly expressed point.

[Halcyon]

Once a week, there is a query on the active player population, which I classify as all characters, dead or alive, that have logged in within the last 10 days.  A tally of character population breakdown is done, and then the script checks against a config file that determines how many half-giants are too many half-giants in the game, or how many shadow dancer drovians are too many of that type in the game, and then it prevents those options from being picked in the character generation flow.

This is a good idea.
It's fair.
We all get the idea that magickers, muls, etc. should be somewhat rare.
Staff can make the thresholds as permissive or restrictive as they like.
It gives people options: okay, I can't play a whiran now but there's space for a krathi. (As long as demand isn't way higher than capacity.*)
Staff could allow special apps to bypass the thresholds, for when you really really want the concept.

* but tbh the most likely outcome is that we would see more diversity in types of magicker.

The other thing is...

The reason you are being rejected is implied that you're being rejected because there are too many of that type, rather that some arbitrary timer.

Could this be fairly implemented with the addition of a waiting queue?   Currently some roles limited in number are hard to get into without some dumb luck on when you apply.

[Nao]

If the current numbers are too high, then the demand for these roles exceeds the 'acceptable number' of these PCs in game. I'd expect them to be full most of the time.

[BadSkeelz]

The numbers were very high even before the karma timer change. I don't think rolling it back would fix any particular problem of there being too many karma roles in the game. I think people play them because they're more enjoyable and actionable (and/or we've attritioned away more of the players who preferred more lowkey roles).

Let people play what they want more, but also give more people more reasons to play something else.

[creeper386]

Limiting people from playing what they want to play isn't going to benefit the game.

I doubt any particular roles is making the game unplayable right now.

Perhaps certain behaviors by those roles could make things difficult, or people have bad interactions with, sure, in that case if something is actually problematic, against the theme of the game etc, I'd rather hope staff would handle any particular problem people.

I've played across the known, and not sure I've seen the populations drastically change. There has always been cycles where a particular race or class seems more played.

Unless someone has some hard numbers that show particularly what the breakdown is and has been, I'm not sure what the discussion is.


I remember one point there was a bunch of people complaining about too many magickers and the stats showed it was a normal amount of magickers. It wasn't the numbers were up it was just happenstance they were running into more of them.

[Patuk]

What would you say is the normal amount of mages?

[FantasyWriter]

Let people play what they want to play, so long as they are playing it well.

I do not want to see the timer reinstated, why:
1. Sometimes quick deaths
2. Sometimes people pay magickers/sorcs/psions "unmantifested" for a while before coming out of the closet. (more of an argument against Mansa's idea than the OP)
3. It causes people to wait to make a character, which lowers active player population.
4. Those that do make a "throwaway" may spend less time or less enjoyable time in the game being frustrated or even biter.
5. People can play "secret" magickers now because of the class/subclass systems, and are able to play more well-rounded characters that don't HAVE to be all about magick meaning magick use may be a much smaller part of their play-time that it was in the past.


I think the old 8-tier system was "better" as this from a purely theoretical standpoint.
The higher you went, the more options you had, but you also saw more "progress" toward the "goal" to keep you sated.
I think I was at 5 (drov/ekran) or 6 (nilaz) and actually LOST options going to the new system 2 karma, and am still there, but the special app system lets me basically with more than a year in the game app ALL the things.

With more tiers, we got to spend more time working our way up and experimenting more with the various levels, and had more to strives for on an OOC level to push ourselves into the different things that "earned" us more karma.

[Case]

If you're going to have a timer, start the clock when the PC dies.

[FantasyWriter]

If you're going to have a timer, start the clock when the PC dies.

This made me think: What about instead of a Karma-level timer, it was a guild/race-specific timer?
I can see if someone makes a nilazi, they can't make another for six months. What I -don't like is playing a Nilazi, cancel out all my OTHER options for any length of time.

[Lutagar]

If you're going to have a timer, start the clock when the PC dies.

I feel like this would encourage magic players to play in a way that safe/boring because a death would be so much more of a hit on an OOC level.

Mages existing should drive conflict, imho. They ought to be rewarded for initiating and taking risks instead of punished for it.

[Brisket]

if you let people play what they want to play, they'll play more often.

[creeper386]

If you're going to have a timer, start the clock when the PC dies.

This made me think: What about instead of a Karma-level timer, it was a guild/race-specific timer?
I can see if someone makes a nilazi, they can't make another for six months. What I -don't like is playing a Nilazi, cancel out all my OTHER options for any length of time.

This is probably the only karma timer option I support. The karma timer was enough of an hassle for me, that I rather just play mundanes then even try a karma role. Combined with the fact that as someone who say, hasn't played magickers, it's not that exciting to app into a magicker and find out what they can do, I as a play have no interest playing them. So then I store and that's a big waste of karma.

Does the lack of a timer mean some people may play karma options all the time. Sure. But the discussion of there being too many X existed long before karma timers were removed. And was always cyclical and much of the time I'm not sure the complain was ever actually completely valid.

If someone wants to play a mul over and over again, and in such a way that is making other people not have fun with the game, I truly hope people use the request tool to voice their concerns with a character making them not want to play the game and have faith that it's a problem, or against documentation staff can sort it out.

[Lotion]

A timer that generates up to 3x your maximum karma points would be nice.

Player with 2 max karma plays a hg for a year and ends up with 6chargen points but can only spend 2 at a time.
It rewards long lived characters (which is seen as desirable) but does not so heavily punish random early death on an expensive character (which is seen as undesirable).

[Brisket]

we should never reward anyone who rolls a HG, so I disagree with you Lotion.

[Halaster]

Limits and caps on certain roles... maaaaaybe, though I've heard a lot of compelling reasons not to even do that.

We're not going to reintroduce the karma timer.  If we were to reintroduce the karma timers it wouldn't be for a year or two.  But we're not going to reintroduce the karma timer.

It's barely been more than 3 months, which is the time it would take to regenerate 3 karma one time.  I agree with Brokkr in that I think over a longer period of time this is going to settle down.  People were freed up to try some new things because they don't feel like they would be screwed if their concept died too soon, and all that.  But even if it doesn't settle down, we won't know for at least probably for a year or longer.

[ShaiHulud]

the changes are good, and should be allowed to test time.
I don't think players are abusing timers if in place.
Let folks play, not sit behind a wall. If you want more, play long and well, then petition.
If you want to know more, then discover it icly.
I was never given the crutch that most seem to need now. Play and learn, not gripe and expect.

[Yelinak]

I think the thing that drives people towards karma races and non-mundane classes in such numbers is the fact that playing in cities is just not appealing these days. It's a dull, uneventful life. If there was more meat on the bones of city play, maybe players wouldn't be so overwhelmingly compelled to play in tribes, raider crews, and other such places where being a karma race or magicker is such a big advantage. Cities feel so empty and miserable, and that's a shame as I believe the game should revolve primarily around them.

[Dracul]

I think the thing that drives people towards karma races and non-mundane classes in such numbers is the fact that playing in cities is just not appealing these days. It's a dull, uneventful life. If there was more meat on the bones of city play, maybe players wouldn't be so overwhelmingly compelled to play in tribes, raider crews, and other such places where being a karma race or magicker is such a big advantage. Cities feel so empty and miserable, and that's a shame as I believe the game should revolve primarily around them.

Nothing in wrong with the setting, but I don't want to roleplay a character in the fascist authoritarian setting. I can't enjoy it because of my perspective in the modern world...that would not be an escape. So for awhile I've played characters that have some tweak that guides them away from that. Those characters interact with plenty of other characters, but it's less likely I'll end up in a situation ICly that makes me uncomfortable OOCly. The whole world is affected by the sorcerer kings, but you get specific RP situations with templars/soldiers/authority in the cities.

I do not have a solution above, just a perspective.

[Yelinak]

I'm perfectly happy to play a hapless character in a fascist setting as long as something happens on a sufficiently regular basis to where it doesn't feel like the onus is exclusively on me, with no help whatsoever from the outside, to lend some relevancy to the role. I have not found that in either of the cities. It has been an impenetrable wall of utter boredom from the first moment to the last.

It's not significantly more interesting to play outside of a city, but at least I get to go kill scrabs or whatever when I want, instead of being beholden to some clan's schedule or its rules that say you can't do anything. There simply needs to be more to sink one's teeth into. I was so excited with recent events, but then they vanished almost as soon as they had begun; and if there was more to it than that, it isn't readily apparent. It isn't something that the common character can access. It might as well not be there.

And that's an issue I've always had with city play. Even when in a position to receive a fair amount of information (e.g. a militia corporal or somesuch), the information is almost always: no news, nothing going on, as always. Keep sparring and patrolling. For years on end. Hurray.

Why, then, would I not play a half-giant Rukkian somewhere out in the desert, just to see the fringes of the code? But what do I contribute to the game when I do that? If a tree falls in the forest and nobody was there to see it, what meaningful roleplay came of it?

But when there's no meaningful roleplay to be had in the cities either, one might as well play a HG/mul/delf/magicker and at least fuck around with the coded systems and become as powerful as one can. If there's nothing else to pursue, this at least checks the lizard brain's need for progress. It feels so futile anytime I try to make more of it than that, because there's just no response. There's nothing to pursue beyond coded progress. I'd love it if it were otherwise, but I cannot find it.

I suspect people play karma-required characters so much because it's the last vestige of agency. "I have such insane strength that nobody can oppose me," or "I can fireball you into oblivion." Yay. But when there's nothing to channel it into, what's the point? And it's not as if none of these players try to find something to channel it into. They try, but find nothing. There's no underlying purpose to their play because this game lends it none. Why, then, would anyone play a city-bound mundane character? It's the same there, except you can't even enjoy the fleeting gratification of mul stats or fireballing a random dude in the face. You just get to sit in the tavern all day, doing nothing and hearing of nothing that compels you to do anything.

It's all so tragically boring. At least the karma options lend a forlorn chance of something, even if it rarely comes to fruition; and they're mostly incompatible with city play, which is damning indictment. This game should revolve around its cities, with everything else being a fringe endeavor. Instead, the cities are a sad ghost town while everyone's out there playing Guess Which Gick I Am. It's just depressing to behold, and I wish it wasn't like this. I'd love to play in the cities, but it feels like there's no support for it at all.

As long as it's like that, I (and, it appears, many others) will choose character types that are best equipped to live in the middle of nowhere, and those are karma races and magic subclasses. If there was more incentive to play in places where those options were not objectively superior, it might be different. It should be a game where one weighs whether or not one wishes to tackle the challenges of playing a karma option. Instead, it's a game where one struggles to justify playing a non-karma option. This has to change.

[dumbstruck]

I think the thing that drives people towards karma races and non-mundane classes in such numbers is the fact that playing in cities is just not appealing these days. It's a dull, uneventful life. If there was more meat on the bones of city play, maybe players wouldn't be so overwhelmingly compelled to play in tribes, raider crews, and other such places where being a karma race or magicker is such a big advantage. Cities feel so empty and miserable, and that's a shame as I believe the game should revolve primarily around them.

Nothing in wrong with the setting, but I don't want to roleplay a character in the fascist authoritarian setting. I can't enjoy it because of my perspective in the modern world...that would not be an escape. So for awhile I've played characters that have some tweak that guides them away from that. Those characters interact with plenty of other characters, but it's less likely I'll end up in a situation ICly that makes me uncomfortable OOCly. The whole world is affected by the sorcerer kings, but you get specific RP situations with templars/soldiers/authority in the cities.

I do not have a solution above, just a perspective.

Literally everything said above. The other day another player asked me in discord via private message why I thought people weren't playing in cities and I said I couldn't speak for other people but for me it was that the setting had distilled to such a fascist authoritarian state in the cities (which is fine, whatever, the setting is the setting) that I no longer found them enjoyable to play in. Tuluk used to have a lively art scene with a big flowery quarter about it which is now... well. Find out IC. Allanak used to have the Atrium and a lot more latitude with its aides and upper class commoners and it's now... I mean... find out IC. And I had a great time in either of the two in my time. And now... I'm having a great time away from both. Because I have absolutely no desire to be ground under a fascist bootheel in my escapism. I think most players have no desire for this. Many players enjoy being the oppressor and few enjoy being the oppressed. And so you wind up with, as people joke about in the discord 'fuck you templar', and an exodus to the wilderness.

[Lutagar]

I think the thing that drives people towards karma races and non-mundane classes in such numbers is the fact that playing in cities is just not appealing these days. It's a dull, uneventful life. If there was more meat on the bones of city play, maybe players wouldn't be so overwhelmingly compelled to play in tribes, raider crews, and other such places where being a karma race or magicker is such a big advantage. Cities feel so empty and miserable, and that's a shame as I believe the game should revolve primarily around them.

I think the cities feel miserable because it's intentionally very difficult to survive as a clanless mundane, as a means of encouraging you to join a clan. But most clans have a schedule that require you to be behind a locked door or suffer ic consequences. It's a self inflicted problem - the cities feel empty because every coded change seems to steer mundane humans to hiding behind their clan's locked door and never interacting with the city outside of it.

Ten people that can interact freely FEELS like alot more than 50 that can only do so 15 minutes at a time. You're more likely to get interaction as a rogue gick for this reason.

[Riev]

This is about karma roles.

[Pariah]

I will say from personal experience that there is a mechanism for Karma overuse.  Back when I used to have way more Karma (Back when it was more than 3) I went on a bender of witches.  After I think two in a row my application was denied by a staffer saying something like, "Chill out on the witches for now."

I'd much rather have that type of response, that I could then open a request and either explain why I had such a cool concept they might reconsider than to be stuck waiting an arbitrary month or whatever to play a witch again.

I know the intent of karma timer is to dole out those special roles slower, at least that's how this thread comes across from me. 

And yes, it is sorta a third wall breaking trope in game to be like, Fuck Joe turned out to be a witch, I knew him for years!?

Because people are better and better at hiding it, but I'd much rather give them the opportunity to do that, than to limit them arbitrarily by a coded timer.

[FantasyWriter]

I will say from personal experience that there is a mechanism for Karma overuse.  Back when I used to have way more Karma (Back when it was more than 3) I went on a bender of witches.  After I think two in a row my application was denied by a staffer saying something like, "Chill out on the witches for now."

I'd much rather have that type of response, that I could then open a request and either explain why I had such a cool concept they might reconsider than to be stuck waiting an arbitrary month or whatever to play a witch again.

I know the intent of karma timer is to dole out those special roles slower, at least that's how this thread comes across from me. 

And yes, it is sorta a third wall breaking trope in game to be like, Fuck Joe turned out to be a witch, I knew him for years!?

Because people are better and better at hiding it, but I'd much rather give them the opportunity to do that, than to limit them arbitrarily by a coded timer.

Not sure if this is what you were saying, but it make me think of something else:

Karma, in itself, is not a throttle on role rarity, it is is a filter for trust and RP ability against abusing higher-karma roles with more coded power.

Like Pariah said, I would much rather get a note from staff saying/ Hey, you've played two Nilazi already this year, we have a couple those around a couple new players special apping to try it out.  Why do you apply for [role call instead] your concept might work well for that with another guild/subguild choice. Or we have too many Whirans right now, might making something else right now and trying the role in the future or change the magic flavor?

Trust players and staff to manage things organically. OOC change often appears to be the catalyst for a lot of player attrition.  Myself included: I lost play guild options when we went from 8 karma to three. Then we lost Nilaz as playable at all and full elementalists as an option, then I could play fewer karma roles due to the timers, and after a couple quick deaths in a row limiting my options for a while, I decided to stop playing until my timer creeped back up, and then just didn't come back.

[LindseyBalboa]

I have like 32 concepts to try out. Some are high karma, some are not. I'll probably do some of the high karma ones first because I haven't experienced some of them before. I may be influenced into trying certain concepts because I notice a particular role might do well in an area of the game that's popular and active, or maybe I think there's an area that needs some antagonism.

I do not have to worry about being safe or dying before 3 months is up. I like to think I do not play safely and will gladly attack someone in the street if it makes sense for my day 1 character to do so, but now I have the certainty of knowing it doesn't matter because I'm not gate kept from the other stories I want to play by time.

Karma timers are not positive for the game, they just inhibit ideas from being played. Staff is already on top of people playing repetitively. I don't see any reason to bring them back - and a lot of reasons not to.

... and after a couple quick deaths in a row limiting my options for a while, I decided to stop playing until my timer creeped back up, and then just didn't come back.

[Windstorm]

It's best to let people play what they want to play.

HOWEVER.

I personally would not mind a nudge from the staff when I was putting in an app that something "rare" that I was applying for was not, at the moment, very rare.

If there are a zillion Vivaduans in the game and I'm putting in a Vivaduan app, I might actually rather know that so I could play something else, personally.

Census numbers might be handy for that, but I don't know how accessible they are.

AFTERTHOUGHT: I find it odd Vivaduans aren't more popular actually. Water should be THE most valuable, sought-after element in a desert apocalypse setting if you ask me, but I've only ever been aware of like two ever.

[BadSkeelz]

They're as common as any other gicker in my experience. People do trend to gravitate to the higher karma ones if they can get them, but there's more lower karma players. Kind of evens out.

[Inks]

It's best to let people play what they want to play.

HOWEVER.

I personally would not mind a nudge from the staff when I was putting in an app that something "rare" that I was applying for was not, at the moment, very rare.

If there are a zillion Vivaduans in the game and I'm putting in a Vivaduan app, I might actually rather know that so I could play something else, personally.

Census numbers might be handy for that, but I don't know how accessible they are.

AFTERTHOUGHT: I find it odd Vivaduans aren't more popular actually. Water should be THE most valuable, sought-after element in a desert apocalypse setting if you ask me, but I've only ever been aware of like two ever.

They are the least combat buff element so only absolute chads or peaceful healer types play them.

[Pariah]

Theme is the only reason everyone is best friends with Vivs.

If it wasn't for the theme, I'd make it a focus on ever character to befriend one and hang out with him/her all the time.

[Yelinak]

Water is only scarce in the documentation. In the actual game, it's trivial to get. I actually find that food is tougher to maintain on some of my PCs.

[Pariah]

Water is only scarce in the documentation. In the actual game, it's trivial to get. I actually find that food is tougher to maintain on some of my PCs.

Sshhh! You're just asking for them to remove water holes around the map with that statement.

[Narf]

Water is only scarce in the documentation. In the actual game, it's trivial to get. I actually find that food is tougher to maintain on some of my PCs.

Sshhh! You're just asking for them to remove water holes around the map with that statement.

Water holes should remain. It's just that animals should drink from them too. Want there to be water left, Hack and Slash time!

[Brisket]

They are the least combat buff element so only absolute chads or peaceful healer types play them.

They're actually the absolute easiest to GET HARD with if you've played the game much.  Hyper-combat Vivs are the babytown frolicks of (Tier 1 Combat Class)/(Magicker) combos.  With only Ruks potentially ever touching them, and likely not except at certain points in the power curve.