Item decay

[Pariah]

I don't recall if it's ever been discussed, but lots of crafter halls use to be filled with all manner of materials from years ago.

Has there every been any thought to making things you skin or forage decay?  That way you can't have a stockpile of fifty scrab shells in your warehouse for five years?

Maybe make how fresh something is more influential in whether it makes good armor or clothing?

Just something I randomly thought of, whatcha think?

[Patuk]

Staff already yells at people who hoard too much, and the amount of stuff you can hoard has been downsized extensively. I genuinely think we're good on this.

[MeTekillot]

I think there have been enough implementations of expiration timers with no equivalent rewarding gameplay loop that an implementation of this idea would just be a pain in the ass. Perhaps sponsored leaders could elect to virtually convert materials into coin, or set up a caravan to go to each city to sell the offal and refuse. Make a plot of it instead of just ANOTHER thing to pointlessly micromanage.

[dumbstruck]

I think there have been enough implementations of expiration timers with no equivalent rewarding gameplay loop that an implementation of this idea would just be a pain in the ass. Perhaps sponsored leaders could elect to virtually convert materials into coin, or set up a caravan to go to each city to sell the offal and refuse. Make a plot of it instead of just ANOTHER thing to pointlessly micromanage.

This.

Additionally... if you have that kind of a stockpile of items of a type for that long in a warehouse, there's a very good chance those items aren't real useful to things your clan is crafting and that's why they're still there, otherwise they probably would've been used up already.

[Pariah]

Additionally... if you have that kind of a stockpile of items of a type for that long in a warehouse, there's a very good chance those items aren't real useful to things your clan is crafting and that's why they're still there, otherwise they probably would've been used up already.

Just want to point out that you just reinforced the reason why it would be a good idea to have them decay.

If a storeroom is full of say, Chalton Horn and there is tons of it taking up room, but it isn't useful to X clan, why wouldn't you want it to decay?

[Patuk]

Because the moment it decays is the moment someone realises they'll need ten roasting spits.

[dumbstruck]

Additionally... if you have that kind of a stockpile of items of a type for that long in a warehouse, there's a very good chance those items aren't real useful to things your clan is crafting and that's why they're still there, otherwise they probably would've been used up already.

Just want to point out that you just reinforced the reason why it would be a good idea to have them decay.

If a storeroom is full of say, Chalton Horn and there is tons of it taking up room, but it isn't useful to X clan, why wouldn't you want it to decay?

The problem here isn't that the storeroom has ten chalton horns then, is it? It's that hunters are bringing in chalton horns and they are getting kept because people don't actually know what the clan's crafting recipes are, so rather than going and hunting scorpions for their chitins which we need all the time and don't have enough of, we have to buy chitins from indies and have a ridiculous pile of chalton horns. But having them decay doesn't fix this problem. (IMO) Especially when some other clan DOES have these as an item which they need.  And again, circle back to the part that is bolded below.

I think there have been enough implementations of expiration timers with no equivalent rewarding gameplay loop that an implementation of this idea would just be a pain in the ass. Perhaps sponsored leaders could elect to virtually convert materials into coin, or set up a caravan to go to each city to sell the offal and refuse. Make a plot of it instead of just ANOTHER thing to pointlessly micromanage.

I get that people don't know what to junk in their clans storerooms the one time, but honestly it'd be better to do a whole storeroom wipe the once and see what moves as it refills than to make every item in it something you have to worry about disappearing just when you need it. Jesus, I have to worry about this happening enough. Empty the storeroom once. Go from there.

[Pariah]

I agree completely in that the things you described are possible without changing a thing, the players have incredible agency when they are in certain roles.

The problem I see with it being possible and it actually happening are different things.

A, If those worthless chalton horns decay, they are gone and no longer clogging up the store room.

B. If the player sells them all to Clan X, they are used.

Of course I'd love if folks in the places of power made the effort and RP to do B.  However, again, they normally don't.

So if I was presented with a system of something that maybe could convert all that wasted space to something or a system that is unbiased and just DOES IT.  I'll go with the system that just does it every minute of the day.

And again, I'm working off one or two year knowledge of GMH storerooms, so I could be totally off base and admit that.

But short of staff in charge animating some high level person and ordering Merchant this or Overseer that to do X and Y.  I don't see it happening, because it hasn't.  Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results after all.

If items just decayed on a timer, and I don't know what that would be, RL month?  RL Six Months?  I'm just spitballing, but if you had them decay automatically, that eliminates the issue versus shoving a plot down Dude A's throat to empty location B.

I honestly can't think of any reason why you wouldn't want them to decay?  Poisons and Cures went that route sorta with effectiveness and eventually going inert, probably to stop folks from blasting out fifty poison cures and then sitting on them or poisons in the same light.

And I understand there is people who hate the poison and cure change too, but just saying from a logical perspective if these finished products are going to age and become worthless, why doesn't a biodegradable animal bone?

Not to mention that it puts real need into folks to buy in demand hunted/grebbed goods.  I know there are folks now who will buy that scrab shell off the hunter everytime as a charity, and throw it on the pile of fifty they already have and consider it a good deed, but it will actually cause things to fluctuate in value, real value if Lord Donkeypants wants his Chalton Horn Spice Pipe and nobody has any Chalton Horn, that trickle down economics helps everyone down the chain.

[dumbstruck]

I honestly can't think of any reason why you wouldn't want them to decay?  Poisons and Cures went that route sorta with effectiveness and eventually going inert, probably to stop folks from blasting out fifty poison cures and then sitting on them or poisons in the same light.

And I understand there is people who hate the poison and cure change too, but just saying from a logical perspective if these finished products are going to age and become worthless, why doesn't a biodegradable animal bone?

Firstly, because I am one of those people who HATE HATE HATED that change. Secondly, because I don't want to deal with more of it. Thirdly, because if your argument is realism, let's look at actual realism on the decay rates of: bone, chitin, leather, stone, and wood in dry climates, in covered storage. Don't worry boo. I got science.

https://www.scienceabc.com/humans/skeleton-mystery-dont-bones-decay-decompose.html

As it turns out, bones decay at varying rates, and some do not decay at all! A little background knowledge about the decomposition process can be very helpful to properly understand the variability of bones in human and animal bodies....

Bones last longer in dry and arid conditions since microbes cannot survive at high temperatures without water. This is why the iconic image of a skeleton in a desert is morbidly accurate....

Bones do decay, just at a slower rate than other types of organic material and tissue.

Untanned hides?
https://sciencing.com/tan-sheep-hides-8691011.html

These hides will keep up to a year.

The article doesn't actually mention a date on how long the tanned ones will keep, but even the untanned ones will last for a year. And this is probably your most compelling item to even suggest breaking down with a timer, but also the one that people are probably most willing to buy currently anyhow.
http://www.townsendleather.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Guidelines-for-Storing-of-Finished-Leather-Townsend-Leather.pdf
Actually, there's sort of a pattern, not many places (none that I am seeing) are talking about cured hides magically decaying. Kinda funny really.

Chitin:
https://www.microbiologyresearch.org/content/journal/micro/10.1099/00221287-44-3-311?crawler=true
This is a more difficult one. I'm not scientist enough to read this with perfect confidence, but it seems to back up the rest of the results that suggest that chitin basically breaks down when it's wet, the wetter it is, the quicker it breaks down. And Zalanthas is dry as fuck. So I imagine it would last a pretty long time. The most damaging microbes when it comes to chitin aren't just aquatic but specifically marine, at that.

And rocks... well, how soon do you think stored rocks should realistically break down?

Please don't push for this. I have enough maintenance crap that I have to ignore without this. And yes, I ignore it as best I can. And it actively makes my gameplay experience less enjoyable. So that's what it's hurting.

[Pariah]

LOTS OF STUFF

[/i]

I'm not arguing realism.  I'm just using the tact that poisons and cures took and suggesting it be applied to skinned and foraged bits.

Yes in realism standards you're 100% correct that certain things don't decay fast.

I'm only coming from a place of aligning various systems in the game to one another.

Poisons and cures eventually expire, like it or not this is the reality of the game now.

Yet that musk gland, or that piece of sinew last RL forever if stored... in a box, in a hundred degree heat.

And again, I totally acknowledge we are talking about a game with Magick and Elves, so it's hard to say, realism realism realism, cause well, it's elves and magick.

But when one part of the world suddenly starts expiring, I feel it's fair to ask why items don't decay at all either?

I think it's unrealistic to think Realism is extremely possible in a game played for fun.

However, I would argue that consistency is expected from a game that's based around a roleplayed world we are supposed to treat as such.

I suspend belief that my poisons go bad, because that's how it is in the world.  Yet I can't expect the same thing from a gwoshi paw, or something made of meat and sinew?

That's all I'm really asking for is consistency across the systems.

[dumbstruck]

I would rather see the new shit rolled back than see everything suddenly not last. My god I would quit and I am pretty sure there are a lot of other people who would also quit if that became the case. There are already a lot of people who have expressed various levels of frustration over what has already been implemented. So your idea is to increase their frustration so you can... satisfy your want for consistency? Not for realism, not for enjoyment, not for playability... I don't even understand.

[Pariah]

I would rather see the new shit rolled back than see everything suddenly not last. My god I would quit and I am pretty sure there are a lot of other people who would also quit if that became the case. There are already a lot of people who have expressed various levels of frustration over what has already been implemented. So your idea is to increase their frustration so you can... satisfy your want for consistency? Not for realism, not for enjoyment, not for playability... I don't even understand.

I can see we aren't going to come to an agreement on this totally unimplemented suggestion I'm making.

I don't wanna argue with you for the sake of arguing.

Last thing I'll say on the topic is that if skinnable/foragable things decayed, there would be more supply and demand at play in the game.

As it sits now if you're a hunter type, you have be able to kill mid-high end critters that can take months or longer to get your skills to the level of being able to kill them because that's the only thing that's not flooding the market.

So yes, hunters that live six months or longer who are killing Kryl and Meks and shit will always be making the panties drop of Salarr and Kadius players because of the desirability of those items and rarity as it should.

But what does the little guy who can only kill scrab and chalton for now do, or doesn't have the want to learn how to fight those high end skinnable loot creatures?  Do they just keep relying on the generosity of a merchant who throws those horns onto a pile of more horns?

Again, I'll leave it alone, as we aren't going to see eye to eye it's evident, but that's why I'm proposing it.  It's not about making life harder on anyone, just making it more ebb and flow depending on the output/work of players versus if Kadius or Salarr burns through the hundred X thing they have sitting in a box or not.

[dunecrawler]

A, If those worthless chalton horns decay, they are gone and no longer clogging up the store room.

B. If the player sells them all to Clan X, they are used.

Option C: New items end up on top of the stack and get used first, staff has unreasonable ideas what a reasonable timer is and I have to spend my time playing on tedious and meaningless acquirement of resources to replace materials like horn and leather that should not decay in the first place.

[Agent_137]

Decay sucks just make rooms smaller if this is really a problem.  Which they already did once upon a time.

And be the change you want to see. Junk stuff aka give it to virtual crafters.  Log it and send to your staff for a head pat.