Weapon Damage Flattening, Balance, Automation

[Halaster]

Alluded to in the last release I have kicked off a project to "fix" weapon damage and as promised to Krath here's some more details.

We have a set of tables, basically a type of style sheet, that tells staff what are the proper values for weapon based on size, weight, material, etc.  They are a manual process are aren't the easiest thing in the world to follow.  Over the years staff have added weapons that don't conform to those standards.  Typically it has been through not understanding how to use them, or general mistakes.  Those weapons then get copied as the person copying it doesn't realize it's bad. Now, some (checks watch) nearly 30 years later we have a LOT of weapons with incorrect values which cause imbalance and inconsistencies.

So, I've started a project to fix that by removing most of the work required by staff to set the values of a weapon.  The new system will mean they only have to set the weapon category (longsword, mace, dagger, etc), the material, and the quality.  Then the game does the rest for them.  This will enforce consistency across the board, meaning if you have a bone longsword that is average quality, you can count on it to be the same as any other bone longsword of average quality.  And this consistency is the ultimate goal.

This also gives us the ability to showcase that certain groups (Salarr) make the best, by having only them craft the highest quality.  And quality will loosely determine the weapon's performance.

So far I've made the code work, which isn't the hard part.  The hard part is converting existing weapons over to a new system, mostly because determining quality is somewhat subjective.  But with the system being in place already, we can work on moving weapons over on whatever time frame we want.

So how does this affect my weapons?  Most weapons shouldn't see any significant - if any - change to their performance.  Some weapons may start doing a tad more damage, some may start doing a tad less.  The real changes are going to be staff side and creating new weapons while holding to our standards.

[MeTekillot]

Does weight factor into this?

[Inks]

It says it does in the first paragraph aye.

[Halaster]

Does weight factor into this?

Yeah.  Staff won't need to set weight, it'll be calculated for them, but it does factor.

[Riev]

So the idea is that like... maybe a light wooden sword isn't going to be as damaging as that heavy glass and mek-handled sword, but its not up to a staff to say "Hm, Wood is 1d4 but BIG GLASS IS 2d6 YEEEEEE". The system will basically say "all swords are 1d6 unless you can get a higher quality one".

What determines "quality"?

[Halaster]

So the idea is that like... maybe a light wooden sword isn't going to be as damaging as that heavy glass and mek-handled sword, but its not up to a staff to say "Hm, Wood is 1d4 but BIG GLASS IS 2d6 YEEEEEE". The system will basically say "all swords are 1d6 unless you can get a higher quality one".

What determines "quality"?

Close.  All wooden longswords are x damage as a base.  The only factor staff would have to determine damage directly is quality.

Quality will be based on skill of the crafter/seller - still a system that has yet to be written for weapons fully.  The exactly details of the system (crafting v quality) is still being hashed out.

[mansa]

Weapons templates, then.  Cool!

How easy is it to create new weapon templates?

[BadSkeelz]

Will PCs be able to generally assess the quality of a weapon through something like the Assess or Value commands (even if you don't have the latter skill)? Or will we need to rely on context clues in the mdesc, which as I'm sure you aware can be... misleading. I like to think that one obsidian blade that compares itself to steel twice in its 3 line description is really good, but suspect that it's more an artifact of 20+ year old writing.

[Brisket]

If PCs can assess weapon quality, can we please have it based on both/either (relevant weapon skill) and (relevant crafting skill)? 

It doesn't make sense if Amos, swordmaster, has no idea how well made his sword is to me.

[Dresan]

I like the idea of standardizing weapons damage.

However, I feel like heavy weapons not only do the most damage but they seem plenty fast especially after some training despite low agility.

This might be a good time to consider balancing weapons speeds so there is much more of a trade off by going heavy damage with strength stat versus lower damage but faster delivery with the agility stat.

It sometimes feel like straight melee combat and bash can become am equally viable assasination alternative than backstab.

[creeper386]

How do you determine the difference between day two stone head hammers when one has a larger handle and head then the other if staff doesn't assign weight?

[Krath]

If PCs can assess weapon quality, can we please have it based on both/either (relevant weapon skill) and (relevant crafting skill)? 

It doesn't make sense if Amos, swordmaster, has no idea how well made his sword is to me.

I think there are two pieces to this:

1. Master Crafted Blades (which should be the highest quality) should only be attainable by someone who has master swordmaking and master slashing weapons.
    -Reasoning: The person making the blade, should also know how to use the blade in order to understand the weak and strong points of said weapon
2. Assessing a weapons quality should be based on Either Weapon Skill level or Weapon crafting skill level.

[Inks]

I like the idea of standardizing weapons damage.

However, I feel like heavy weapons not only do the most damage but they seem plenty fast especially after some training despite low agility.

This might be a good time to consider balancing weapons speeds so there is much more of a trade off by going heavy damage with strength stat versus lower damage but faster delivery with the agility stat.

It sometimes feel like straight melee combat and bash can become am equally viable assasination alternative than backstab.

I have seen you request this again and again, all it does is break the game, nice try halfbreed.

[betweenford]

Finesse weapons would be cool when you're like weaker than a small child but still wanna use a rapier or a dagger.

[wizturbo]

So far I've made the code work, which isn't the hard part.  The hard part is converting existing weapons over to a new system, mostly because determining quality is somewhat subjective.  But with the system being in place already, we can work on moving weapons over on whatever time frame we want.

Having the value skill tell you vaguely how high quality a weapon is would be an amazing addition to the game, assuming it was tied to that coded "Quality" rating you're referring to.

[wizturbo]

1. Master Crafted Blades (which should be the highest quality) should only be attainable by someone who has master swordmaking and master slashing weapons.
    -Reasoning: The person making the blade, should also know how to use the blade in order to understand the weak and strong points of said weapon

Disagree with linking crafting ability to weapons skills themselves, beyond maybe a small bonus.  To say you need to be a master of a weapon in order to craft it would be like saying Mikhail Kalashnikov needed to be an award winning shooter in order to build the AK-47.  As far as I'm aware, there are virtually no historical examples of master weapons makers also being renowned warriors or specialists of the weapons in their own rite.  For instance, master swordsmiths building Katanas in Japan were not part of the Samurai class, and were not even allowed to wield a sword of their own, let alone get good at using them.

This extends to virtually all crafts...  Clothiers are not models.  Armorers are not warriors.  Paint brush makers are not painters.  Pilots are not aircraft engineers. 

All realism aside, it isn't even good game design.  You want to make a crafter character, but you're forced to spar for RL years in order to get good enough to mastercraft a good weapon?  Seems bad to me.

[Inks]

Agreed on weapon skill being unrelated to crafting. TA.

This is a fantasy trope from some fictions where they are blacksmith but also master swordsman.

I respect a pc who is both though!

[Halaster]

In my mind I was thinking that if you have the weapon skill (only), then you can assess it and get a general idea of quality.  Maybe like poor, average, good.  If you can craft it, then you might get more of a breakdown, like poor, below average, average, good, very good, master.  Or something like that.

[Inks]

That's baller, yeah. Yes please!

[wizturbo]

This sounds really awesome.   Even better than using value skill imo.

This would unlock an entire economy around weapons, as players will seek out the best gear, and weapons crafters will be able to actively hunt for the best materials to deliver on that.  Makes being a mastercrafter even cooler.  You don't have to just make a fancy looking weapon, you can make it a BAD ASS weapon, that everyone KNOWS is codedly bad ass.   Would love for armor to receive a similar treatment someday too, however I think there's less inconsistencies with armor from my experience.

[Inks]

Armor was fixed fairly consistently not long ago, yeah.

Am excited about this even though it just means everyone will use the heaviest best material weapon possible. BY THE POWER OF GREYSKULL.

[Dar]

In my mind I was thinking that if you have the weapon skill (only), then you can assess it and get a general idea of quality.  Maybe like poor, average, good.  If you can craft it, then you might get more of a breakdown, like poor, below average, average, good, very good, master.  Or something like that.

I like it. This is where the Elven Margin comes in play as well.

A human brute warrior assesses a weapon and gets, "This weapon is of exquisite quality."
A shrewd craftsman assesses the same weapon and gets, "This weapon is of extremely good quality."

The avg. component cost between the two is 150%. Difference between the two price wise is 600%. One is Salarri made, the other is made by some elven craftsman who's playing the 'keen eye' differentials to send his quality goods.

[Brisket]

In my mind I was thinking that if you have the weapon skill (only), then you can assess it and get a general idea of quality.  Maybe like poor, average, good.  If you can craft it, then you might get more of a breakdown, like poor, below average, average, good, very good, master.  Or something like that.

this is a way better idea than randomly requiring salarri crafters get master weaponsskills like Krath said, and more what I was hoping yes.

[wizturbo]

If we really want to get deep on this, you can include a random modifier on each crafted item that determines quality, influenced by skills and tools.   This would encourage repeat crafting and stimulating the economy...  Also would mean that you could have "mastercraft" quality versions of existing recipes without it being a custom craft only thing.

Example 1:   Let's take a crafter with maxxed out skills who makes a bone sword...

Base skill = 100/100
Tools bonus of +5 (basic tools)
Random roll of 1d50:  5 (bad luck)
End result:  You make a 110 quality bone sword, which translates to "Good" quality when assessed.


Example 2:  Our crafter feels like they could do better, and gathers materials to try again. 

Base skill = 100/100
Tools bonus of +5 (basic tools)
Random roll of 1d50:  40 (good luck)
End result:  You make a 145 quality bone sword, which translates to "Great" quality.  Just shy of the 150 threshold for "Exceptional" quality.  In theory if he rolled a 45+, he would have gotten there, it's within his potential results!

Example 3:  Our crafter is recruited by House Salarr, gaining access to their secret tools and workshops.

Base skill = 100/100
Tools bonus of +12 (Secret Salarri tools)
Random roll of 1d50:  40 (good luck)
End result:  You make a 152 quality bone sword, which qualifies for "Exceptional" quality due to that bonus from secret Salarri tools.  In theory, if he had rolled a 48+ he could have made a "Masterwork" quality 160+ weapon even without using a "custom craft"...a truly extraordinary feat and a major perk of having access to special tools and workshops.


Players would never see their exact rolls, but maybe they'd get a message that indicates critical failure, failure, narrow success, success, and critical success via messaging.  They could "Assess" their own work of course to see what quality item they managed to make.

A system like this would really flesh out crafting to be an exciting pursuit, with the potential to make valuable weapons that encourage an economy around materials gathering as crafters would want to build multiple copies of a weapon to fish for high quality versions they could sell to nobles/wealthy mercs/or give to their friends or tribe members.  Even if this added quality only makes a small difference in performance, having an assessable "masterwork" weapon is going to be a goal that any warrior worth their salt will want to pursue. 

[Barsook]

I like that idea ^^^.