Death, how important is it

[Dar]

Hello.

These thoughts mostly came to me from reading that player retention giant of a thread.  So, one of the biggest things that jars the players is the lack of return on the effort that they put in. Very very valid thought. The reasons for it are different, but one of those reasons is the ease a character can die.


2 RL year character that created enough content to write a small series of fantasy books?  Dies to a Mek that was lured in by someone else walking in and insta killing. Or crit failing climb. Or a Newly Created Templar messing up commands and causing 8 Militia NPCs insta engage a person, or messing up threaten command. The number of idiotic deaths are many.

And yes. They add a certain awesome hue to the Armageddon experience.  Life is dangerous in Zalanthas and we are all mortal. In the words of Voland, "Yes, man is mortal, but that would be only half the trouble. The worst of it is that he's sometimes unexpectedly mortal—there's the trick!"

The question though is how awesome is that hue? Is it worth all those years upon years of stories, plots, and content that we lose? Is it worth a player pouring their heart and soul into a character, then mistyping previous character left over command that was short for gather and watching in horror how their finely crafted bard is ripped apart by NPCs in a span of a heart beat. Then not logging into the game for another RL year.

What can be done to maintain permadeath of Armageddon. A feature that, I think, is in the game's very core. And yet prevent stories and effort from being lost ... idiotically.

Here's some suggestions I'd offer you. I'd appreciate your thoughts.

Suggestions:

Negative HP always regens back. Even if you're at -9, it might take you a RL Day, but you will gradually crawl back to 0.

NPCs will never land a lethal blow, but instead inflict an affect on you as their killing blow.

The affect will not end the character and they will be able to regain consciousness. But they'll have two affects sitting on them. One of them drops their stats and skills by a significant percentage. Potentially preventing skill gain until expiry/cure. Penalties on movement, item capacity, combat ability, etc etc etc.   Maybe have two affects with one of them wearing off only during online time, while the other, much longer, working like intoxication does.

Have various remedies, spells, skills, whatever that shortens the affect.


Allow permanent death to occur only when a PC deals it. Their actions will be like they usually are. Except perhaps 'mercy' toggle is a little more reliable.

Allow PCs to toggle OHK on/off. If off, then their arrows/backstabs/hits/etc can still drive a target to -9 hp and upon recovery they will be suffering the Near Death Affect.  But to bring in the final death, the PC would have to toggle on the OHK.

Make the Near Death affect thematically a 'lucky survivor' concept. Not something ICly people can rely on. Oh, if I drop off this mountain, I wont die, I just wont be able to lift a mug for a rl month. No, no. They'll survive, but will need to roleplay being the luckiest idiots still evidently alive.

Make the Near Death Affect annoying, debilitating, limiting, and very much unwelcome to have. But ... the character concept and it's plots can go on. Unless another PC goes out of their way to end them.

[dumbstruck]

I just wish it were easier to rest in the wilderness without breaking wilderness hide. Put it that way.

I am an explorer type, and while I would love to have zero chance of the game world being deadly in some cases, in other cases it would make no sense and create terrible unplayable time periods stuck at the ends of the known unable to do much of anything.

I feel more dissatisfied about a death that comes with a mantishead that appears out of nowhere from a pc than I do dying to the world in pve, because the other player COULD HAVE given me the benefit of some roleplay, and they didn't.

Maybe flattening weapons skills somehow so they increase faster overall rather than by a thousand tiny levers, or making the wilderness itself slightly less deadly on the balance, might be cool. But to make it unable to kill you at all seems... terrible for people who aren't here for the pvp game.

I hate pvp and don't typically indulge in it. I don't grudge other people what they like, but in 13 years I've pkilled a total of 3 times. I've been on the being killed end dozens of times, usually as someone's refrigeratored girl it feels like, and every time it has pissed me off that the person has not played it out more. I don't know if I have EVER had a satisfying death from another pc in this game, but I have definitely had a satisfying death on the tail end of finding some cool out in the middle of nowhere shit that was way deadlier than I thought it was or should have been in the wilderness.

Are the majority of wilderness deaths satisfying? No, but I've had a higher concentration of them that were than at the hands of other characters. I've never died in the arena, or been put on the cuddler, or whatever. I think the closest I came to a satisfying death at the hands of a pc was a narrowly escaped death from Lyvrenxice Oash 12 years ago and I sent her MAJOR kudos for coming out and roleplaying, for being convincing enough to lure someone into a false sense of security, etc etc etc.

Maybe 2 or 3 times, maybe only under certain circumstances. I don't know. But to make it so that PVP is the only way to die robs the wilderness of any real risk and makes it literally a place you can lose time but not your life, which makes it more of a risk of being a time sink than anything. And if you are far enough out, or in a weird enough or obscure enough place that no one can come get you, do you just stay stuck in limbo forever without staff intervention or what?

[Tailong]

I'd be more for a rebalance than anything. Permadeath is important. It makes our character mortal, and our decisions even more important. I think the PVE environment should be progressively deadlier as you get away from civilization, if that would even be possible. Dying to a scrab trying to greb or hunt simple skins is sometimes embarrassing.

Rebalance, but keep permadeath. And maybe require roleplay before playerkill? Meaning: you roleplay to the point that people send assassins, well you got roleplay of your own design. But, random encounters should be roleplayed out to the point that all other means are now exhausted, its time for the code. I think people would appreciate the effort more to make it enjoyable, I know I would give it my all before typing "kill (player)".

[dumbstruck]

I'd be more for a rebalance than anything. Permadeath is important. It makes our character mortal, and our decisions even more important. I think the PVE environment should be progressively deadlier as you get away from civilization, if that would even be possible. Dying to a scrab trying to greb or hunt simple skins is sometimes embarrassing.

Rebalance, but keep permadeath. And maybe require roleplay before playerkill? Meaning: you roleplay to the point that people send assassins, well you got roleplay of your own design. But, random encounters should be roleplayed out to the point that all other means are now exhausted, its time for the code. I think people would appreciate the effort more to make it enjoyable, I know I would give it my all before typing "kill (player)".

Maybe even just something requiring a single emote when you type a combat initiating command against a player to describe /how/ you are doing that thing, so that no one gets just a blank mantis head, would be nice. Like:

backstab amos (stepping out of the shadows for a moment) [lunging forward with a dagger and death in her eyes]

Amos sees:
Someone attacks you, stepping out of the shadows for a moment, lunging forward with a dagger and death in her eyes.

[Mantishead]

Idk.

I know that combat rounds go fast, and I don't think it's in the spirit of how Arm's combat culture has been for decades to suddenly ask for emotes between rounds or anything like that, but if combat has yet to be initiated, you can't say the expectation of an emote (even if just a command emote) to open it is unreasonable as a level of courtesy, but by that token I think the attack commands would all need to be coded to take command emotes like that if that were to be a thing. In any case, I think there is a happy medium between the person getting attacked gets no roleplay from their killer that they can see and an emote every round when combat can easily just go into a silly amount of rounds with how some people are matched in late game with skills/stats/etc matched in some ways.

[zealus]

I would like to say that the quick deaths are what draws me into the game. I'd hate for the wilderness to lose it's teeth, by instead of killing my PC, instead limiting me to just not go outside for a while.
Yes, wilderness deaths can be annoying, but no, I don't think outright removing them will be good. In the end, death is a part of the game, and what makes those near death moments special.

[kahuna]

It's never the death itself, it's the circumstances around how it happens. Got caught by an NPC like a mek? Doesn't bother me. Got metagamed by 3-4 players because they don't like you as a player? Probably taking a looong break after that one.

[Inks]

Without death the way things are, the rp of the game would have no meaning.

Please never, ever implement this idea.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Sometimes you die and you don't know why.  This is why I play.  If that aspect was taken, I wouldn't play this game again. Its why I started playing and why I keep coming back.

[Fragmented]

While I can certainly understand the devastation someone might feel if their story is abruptly cut short, I think that perma death and the potential for sudden, inexplicable destruction adds to the game. There is a reason why high ranking officials (i.e. POTUS) don't just slide down to their local bar for a drink, and if they do, they're surrounded by secret service. Just like POTUS wouldn't slide into the wastelands to do some grebbing, etc. There's a tradeoff here - if you've become so important (or feel you have) that the risk of death is painful, minimize that risk wherever possible. Hell, we might even see the T'zai Byn being used for more city contracts.

I hope the potential for sudden, random violence doesn't ever go away because I think it adds value to achievement for as long as you are able to avoid that violence.

[CirclelessBard]

This is an interesting proposal, as it absolutely would modernize the game, and make death more meaningful and less random. At the same time, random death is one of the characteristics of Armageddon, for better or worse.

One of my favorite tabletop roleplaying systems is Fate, so I want to link something interesting from there:
https://fate-srd.com/odds-ends/failure

Specifically, these passages:

Even players that say things like 'I want death to be a possibility' are kind of being vague and missing the point. They want the feeling of danger. They probably don't want their characters to die (or, at worst, they want death to be an inconvenience). They surely don't want a game so lethal that they have a character dying every session.

Here's an experiment: The next time that a player says 'they want a game where death is a real possibility', ask them what percentage of games that they think the game should include their character dying, and whether they think that resurrection should be freely available.

Here's the thing. I adore Fate. Truly. It's one amazingly elegant system. And I find it incredibly poor at producing the types of challenges I find in traditional games. It's a weak tactical skirmish game, at best. The rules don't have a lot of support for 'puzzle-solving' type activities, either. The existence of Fate Points essentially means that players can 'buy' success at just about anything.

And with a weak challenge system, the whole idea of 'gated challenges' utterly fails.

So when traditional game players say things like 'what's the point, you'll always win!' they kind of have a point. Fate is a pretty bad system to run traditional (gated challenge) adventures in.

So let's not try. Let's rethink what these 'encounters' are. And let's use the rules to guide us.

Let's look at an incredibly simple situation. A locked door.

In a traditional game, you'll have a chance to get past this door. If you fail, you fail. If you really need to get past that door, you're SOL. But nothing else will likely happen, just the door doesn't open.

But if you really need to get past that door, other options will be available, somewhere -this is often called "The Rule of Three". And while it seems like it's not the "gated challenge" structure, it really is -there's just multiple 'solutions' to the challenge.

But what about in Fate?

Fate Core, pg. 187: If you cant imagine an interesting outcome from both results, then dont call for that roll.

Whoa. That's weird. Does that mean if you can't think of how to make opening the door interesting, then it just opens? Where's the challenge in that???

The concept of interesting outcomes is meaningful to me, and I think to most roleplayers looking to tell stories online in MU*s. Zalanthan life is harsh, and death is often a random, unexpected and unfortunate occurrence. The same goes for real life, to a degree. If an aspect of a roleplaying game makes stories less interesting then it's worth considering whether that aspect is holding the game back. At the same time, some representation of that danger needs to exist or the world itself is no longer dangerous. An interesting conundrum, to be sure.

[Agent_137]

I'd rather see skills be learned faster than "NPCs will never land a lethal blow".

The other suggestions seem good, but be careful. Removing the randomness and skill factor from avoiding killing during an assault  going to lead to people being even angrier when someone PKs them with no emotes.

"lack of return on the effort that they put in."
This implies there's time being spent that isn't fun, that feels like work and effort. While that's unavoidable to a degree, I would focus on lessening it so it can be more about the journey and not the destination. This is an RPI, the roleplay should be frequent and fun. Sudden death sucks but doesn't lessen the fun had on the way. If the way isn't fun ... then that's the problem to solve, not the end.

[Riev]

Anecdotally, I'm reminded of the death of one of my PCs. Its a little magicky, but...

There was a creature that was a lot stronger than my PC. Unarmed, it did well over my maximum stun points.
However, it had Mercy turned on. It would not take the final blow.

I spent a solid hour or so waking up, getting knocked back out, waking up, getting knocked back out

[LindseyBalboa]

i cannot easily express how much i downvote this (edit: specifically, non-fatal npcs.)

[mansa]

I think death is extremely important to the life of this game.

However, I think death is often short and shitty, in this fantasy game we play.  We can say "it's just like real life", but honestly, I'm playing a fantasy game, and I want to have a long monologue of myself dying.

In my perfect world:

If you are "killed", you are put into a state where you have a time limit to say anything/emote anything in the same room.  You cannot use the way.  Your time limit is 5 minutes, but you can quit/die at anytime.  You cannot be brought back to life, even with magick.   Other players in the same room can kill you immediately by typing 'murder x' and preventing you from roleplaying out that 5 minutes.


This allows you to pause, to scream, to cry, and to roleplay death.   It doesn't take away death, but allows you to add some flair to it.

[Tailong]

I think death is extremely important to the life of this game.

However, I think death is often short and shitty, in this fantasy game we play.  We can say "it's just like real life", but honestly, I'm playing a fantasy game, and I want to have a long monologue of myself dying.

In my perfect world:

If you are "killed", you are put into a state where you have a time limit to say anything/emote anything in the same room.  You cannot use the way.  Your time limit is 5 minutes, but you can quit/die at anytime.  You cannot be brought back to life, even with magick.   Other players in the same room can kill you immediately by typing 'murder x' and preventing you from roleplaying out that 5 minutes.


This allows you to pause, to scream, to cry, and to roleplay death.   It doesn't take away death, but allows you to add some flair to it.

Add that you turn off the OOC channel to limit OOC abuse from the salty few, and I am in.

[Dar]

OOC Channel?  Are you having a laugh?

[Barsook]

If you are "killed", you are put into a state where you have a time limit to say anything/emote anything in the same room.  You cannot use the way.  Your time limit is 5 minutes, but you can quit/die at anytime.  You cannot be brought back to life, even with magick.   Other players in the same room can kill you immediately by typing 'murder x' and preventing you from roleplaying out that 5 minutes.


This allows you to pause, to scream, to cry, and to roleplay death.   It doesn't take away death, but allows you to add some flair to it.

I would love that too as it's a RPI.

[Tailong]

OOC Channel?  Are you having a laugh?

Hey man. I'm old. I have a bad memory. Where am I even? But you can go ooc. Might have to code it but turning off at death would be nice.

[Inks]

You would not see an increase in numbers with this implemented. The opposite I think. The world just becomes less real and more gamey. This thread is making me sick. That's enough gdb for me for a while.

[Rogerthat]

I think the opposite as well, I like like two minutes of rp time, but also i dont like the idea, death is why I play. Its what keeps me coming back, what messes with my emotions, I personally like to really get into my pcs - It is why when im trying to go balls to the walls i know whats gonna happen, if you dont want death, choose better things to do ig, if you go out, why go out alone? Meet friends, create a community, more is better in a sense, if your in a group and you see someone who has a bounty for 50k, if you choose lets kill this guy and he rocks you all, well your death was based on that. Now if your in a group and you see this same guy and you all decide to avoid it, then do so.

Death mostly happens based on what you do, or what others do. Yes there is those random deaths by scrabs, creatures, etc. But again, dont go out alone and this fixes some of this, join the byn learn to fight. Look around when you go outside, be paranoid. Its a perma death game and this game is built on three things Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal. Death is the game and sometimes you get good ones and you get bad ones, its way of life, sometimes you go to starbucks and that one day that drink is kick ass then the next fuck its not so good.

[HazelHomewrecker]

I think death is extremely important to the life of this game.

However, I think death is often short and shitty, in this fantasy game we play.  We can say "it's just like real life", but honestly, I'm playing a fantasy game, and I want to have a long monologue of myself dying.

In my perfect world:

If you are "killed", you are put into a state where you have a time limit to say anything/emote anything in the same room.  You cannot use the way.  Your time limit is 5 minutes, but you can quit/die at anytime.  You cannot be brought back to life, even with magick.   Other players in the same room can kill you immediately by typing 'murder x' and preventing you from roleplaying out that 5 minutes.


This allows you to pause, to scream, to cry, and to roleplay death.   It doesn't take away death, but allows you to add some flair to it.

I TOTALLY agree with this! It would be an awesome addition to make, and would probably help with the feeling of finality and closure if you actually get to write that last line or two before you crank-out.

Death has a very important place in the game, and trying to remove the threat of it (even if it's just from NPC's) wouldn't be healthy I don't think. When you stop and consider that when you think of an NPC death, you're talking about Tarantulas/Raptors/Scrabs/etc. all of which would have legitimate cause to KILL something, rather than leave it for dead. They are living creatures that have the need and drive to survive, and eat--most of these things would probably eat you immediately just because they're probably pretty damn hungry.

Of course there's the rebuttal about NPC thieves in the Labyrinth or non-carnivorous beasts like Carru(? i think?), but that's not really true either. The average thief in the Labyrinth would kill you for your boots, then sell everything else to afford food and water. The carru would mince you into a pulp just because they're territorial as HELL.

I hope that makes some sense? At least, that's my view of it.

[Halaster]

Yeah, I've seen mansa's idea of the 'death scene' and I really like it.  A while back I added it to my 'to do' list, but it's not high on the list.  So hopefully "one day".

[Tuannon]

While I do like the idea of NPCs having 'on incapacitated' scripts for things they beat to 0 hp, I feel like the time and testing could be better spent in more useful ways. I also think mobs that regularly leave you beaten but alive would be used as training dummies in certain areas.

Additionally roles who are perceived as being 'cowards' in a harsh place such as Allanak for avoiding dangerous situations are in fact acknowledging that the world is dangerous just as much as you the Byn trooper with the thousand yard stare. So complaining that they stayed behind His walls while you and your unit died to a scrab nest in the desert might make good IC sense, OOC it is empowering the idea that the desert is harsh just as much as you are.

I suppose it's the same as the 'I was killed for no reason' conversation.

[ShaiHulud]

I don't want anything to really change. I enjoy the investment and the inevitability of death. I try to prolong it like we all do in rl. Or some or most.  If I could rez and rejoin, I wouldn't play this game.

[LindseyBalboa]

Yeah, I've seen mansa's idea of the 'death scene' and I really like it.  A while back I added it to my 'to do' list, but it's not high on the list.  So hopefully "one day".

I like this idea and have hoped for something similar, as well, but for this idea to work it needs a toggle BEFOREhand to murder, or beforehand to not murder, whichever the default is. And this is a necessity because the PC can still talk, and there are too many situations where it wouldn't make sense to stop murdering someone so they could reveal all they know about the perpetrator, etc.

Which, typing it out, sounds like mercy could just be reworked if it ends in a death. (edit: Although currently I like mercy as is because it allows a few post-fight emotes WITHOUT the downed PC able to talk, to wrap up the death, if there's time.)

[GreenTransient]

Perhaps a toggleable mercy status to allow your player to become immobilized (preventing fleeing of any kind, and something to stop spells etc think dying breath actions) at 1hp and if that attacker has the mercy status on as well, indicating a desire to rp out a 1 hp scene instead of no mercy or perhaps is intending to incap, auto disengage combat?  If that makes sense to anyone other than me.

[mansa]

I also would like to see Mercy reworked so that it would always have non-lethal damage, leaving the person at 1 HP.  I would like the fantasy to be able to stop even if I swing my mighty-axe of +24 giant strength damage, and they are currently at 2 hp, to negate all bonuses and applied damage and only apply 1 HP damage.

Yes, it wouldn't be "realistic" but I would like it anyways, in this fantasy game.

[Pariah]

I would be open to a changing of some of this stuff discussed.

My contribution would be someone going over and making it more consistent with death blows.

There are certain critters in the world that will knock another critter unconscious if they end up fighting and then just mosey on out the room like nothing happened.

But then deathblow a character every single time.

I feel the deathblow should be consistent regardless of npc or pc.  If a black beetle kills every character it knocks out, then it should kill every EVERYTHING it knocks out. (I just use that critter as an example since everyone knows it exists, may not be a guilty party.)

Slide aside to this, I wish there was some mechanic to fleeing for NPCs, I have fled, instantly typed run and direction direction direction to have them keep up, fight me again, flee and rinse and repeat till I'm outta stamina and die.

Players get a delay after the kill pc command, but critters don't. (Or if they do it's nowhere near as long as a player)  Seems unfair.

[Inks]

Please make predatory animals kill mounts as well as riders especially swarm animals. DEVOUR MY CORPSE. I want today's heroes of Zalanthas to be tomorrow's spider shit. DEATH IS WELCOMED.


(No changey)

[Pariah]

Please make predatory animals kill mounts as well as riders especially swarm animals. DEVOUR MY CORPSE. I want today's heroes of Zalanthas to be tomorrow's spider shit. DEATH IS WELCOMED.


(No changey)

I've always thought it's strange that they don't go after your mount.

I know why oocly they don't.  Because your mount is strong as fuck, and they don't want people getting the two versus one buff while their mount is landing hard ass blows on that scrab.

But maybe the answer is just to not make mounts be so hard hitting?

I had a time once I think staff animated a pretty strong beast, and had it attack my beetle, my beetle beat the living shit outta the critter to the point it fled and I finished it off.

So in a realistic sense, they should be killing or at least attempting to kill mounts.  But game balance sense they probably don't want that so that people aren't going ASSIST MOUNT to gangbang critters.

But it would be cool if they could figure out a way to do it.

[Night Queen]

What if those dumb bugs that eat tiny bugs were more realistically not massive health sponges (maybe give as much as two chalton instead, so people have to be more careful with the life of their animals instead of assuming they can tank everything) with the combat ability of a ferocious predator in the first place, that'd solve a lot of those issues, it always seemed sort of gamey how these creatures that are quite low on the food chain were like this.

[Inks]

Yes I don't mean animals suiciding into your beast, I mean add something so animals that can take on your mount will do so, if in numbers. I don't mind if they wait until the pc is dead or fled first.

The last animation that attacked my inix killed it in three hits, so you got lucky with yours

[dwarven fists of doom]

The only differentiating factor that makes this game interesting is permadeath. I wouldn't make it harder to die.

If anything we need headsets like this.

[Dracul]

I want to die holding my bynner guts in my arms in the back of the wagon, while I watch the remainder of the rpt story. I am a body, that still has it's eyes open.

Let me sit an -9 hp because my chest was crushed when the bahamet stomped on me, and don't let me survive unless there is magick, quickly. When sergeant says 'quick, finish him off' sure maybe mantis me but...please expand the death scene by any means reasonable.

[Tuannon]

I think if it serves a dramatic purpose, have your bleeding out on the wagon moment. But if it doesn't, just die immediately and get on with planning your next role.

[Pariah]

Would be nice if there was a bit of out of body view to see what happens after the mantis head.

Maybe like a bit of a killcam type ability to see but not influence anything.

Maybe pop a message in the room where folks can allow it or not who are alive.

Shrug

[dumbstruck]

Would be nice if there was a bit of out of body view to see what happens after the mantis head.

Maybe like a bit of a killcam type ability to see but not influence anything.

Maybe pop a message in the room where folks can allow it or not who are alive.

Shrug

Provided that's taken into account, that would be pretty cool, just so as you can't leave the room of course, or look at the people in case you got murderized and it was a masked assailant you didn't get a look at before dying.

[Inks]

I'd like the ability as a killer to be able to send a small portion of the pk report to the player whose pc mine killed, explaining a no-names reason for their death. This would be approved by imms and sent on to victim's player after pk report is processed.

I'm not a fan of the killcam thing though. The more ic seamless the better for me.

[chrisdcoulombe]

I'd like the ability as a killer to be able to send a small portion of the pk report to the player whose pc mine killed, explaining a no-names reason for their death. This would be approved by imms and sent on to victim's player after pk report is processed.

I'm not a fan of the killcam thing though. The more ic seamless the better for me.

Isn't this what kudos are for?

[Inks]

I'd like the ability as a killer to be able to send a small portion of the pk report to the player whose pc mine killed, explaining a no-names reason for their death. This would be approved by imms and sent on to victim's player after pk report is processed.

I'm not a fan of the killcam thing though. The more ic seamless the better for me.

Isn't this what kudos are for?

No it is congratulating them on how awesome their PC was or how they RP'd the scene, you aren't supposed to reveal IC reasons for their death in it vague or otherwise.

Is an optional thing I would like to be included for greater PC closure, telling the general reason they died.

[mansa]

Death/Dying Suggested Code Changes:


Allow the Game to Display when you heal or when you suffer while you are in a critical state

#1 - Have it echo every time you increase in hitpoints when you're lower than 1 HP.
eg:
going from -8 to -7
You are critically injured, but seem to recover slightly.

#2 - Have it echo every time you decrease in hitpoints when you're lower than 1 HP.
eg:
going from -7 to -8
You are critically injured, and continue to suffer.

#3 - Have it echo when you go from 0 to 1 hitpoint.
eg:
You are critically injured, but seem to recover slightly.
You are no longer critically injured.

#4 - Have it echo when you go from -10 to -11 hitpoints.
eg:
You are critically injured, and continue to suffer.
The last drop of blood finally trickles out of your body, and you die.




Allow the Game to Display the truth of how you died:

#1 - Show the description of the person (if they are hooded, then the hooded description) that attacked and killed you with a combat strike, when you are in a critial state / knocked out.  :edit: I would even be satisfied by it just showing "someone".
It is very disheartening when you cannot see what is attacking you, or how the final blow happened. Or if you recover - why are you hurt so much...

  I'm not sure if this is already possible, but I'd like to make sure that:
#2 - Allow communcation to go through to you, when you are in a critical state.  Nothing sucks more than having the villain do a monologue and you can't hear it because you're in a critical state.

[Inks]

I would rather not being able to see your attacker while at mortally, there is already too much ooc communication going on as it is.


Everything else Mansa said is fine though, I especially like the -/+ damage tick messsges.

[mansa]

I would rather not being able to see your attacker while at mortally, there is already too much ooc communication going on as it is.

Yes, I could settle for having it echo with 'someone'.  Currently, there is no echo when you are in critical condition / unconscious and you get hit by a weapon... So you don't know why your hit points are so low.

[MarshallDFX]

Death/Dying Suggested Code Changes:
Allow the Game to Display when you heal or when you suffer while you are in a critical state

as an aside, if people do/want to use tintin++ I have written scripts in the Screen Reader Thread for echoing HP changes. Happy to help tailor if anybody wants something.

[Diesel]

I would rather not being able to see your attacker while at mortally, there is already too much ooc communication going on as it is.


Everything else Mansa said is fine though, I especially like the -/+ damage tick messsges.

How would this be different from seeing who kills you face to face? It would be the same effect. If we can't trust each other to keep thins separate between characters, we might as well shut down the game. We're all in the Byn and see who plays who in the clan boards and if you die, you still remember who is who. You just don't use that information. It's that simple. The game shouldn't have to force you to play by the rules.

[Windstorm]

The people who are determined to take things OOC and let it affect their roleplay are going to whether anyone likes it or not. At some point we just need to try and not let it affect the rest of us who aren't that way.

Let's at least try not assume the worst of each other.

I like the suggestion.

For all the fun things you can get into in Armageddon, death is pretty short, unsatisfying, and often disappointing. If there were more ways I could make it less disappointing for people somehow, I would. I wish it were a little easier to stop a critically wounded PC from dying, myself. Ways to make ransoms, kidnappings, taking prisoners and even being a realistic prisoner more of a thing.

[Synthesis]

I don't think permadeath is the problem. Neither is the danger level of the wilderness.

The problem for me, as I age, is that it takes entirely too much time to play this game and be good.

And by "good" I don't mean simple coded power. It takes entirely too much time to be "good" socially, as well.  A simple conversation about trading can take longer than riding from Allanak to Tuluk.

But yeah...the grind to become decent in mundane melee is bad. The grind to become excellent is excruciating.  And then you can die to some dumb shit like a magick nuke or poison or mega-RPT mobs anyway, and nobody will care.

[Kavrick]

I don't think permadeath is the problem. Neither is the danger level of the wilderness.

The problem for me, as I age, is that it takes entirely too much time to play this game and be good.

And by "good" I don't mean simple coded power. It takes entirely too much time to be "good" socially, as well.  A simple conversation about trading can take longer than riding from Allanak to Tuluk.

But yeah...the grind to become decent in mundane melee is bad. The grind to become excellent is excruciating.  And then you can die to some dumb shit like a magick nuke or poison or mega-RPT mobs anyway, and nobody will care.

As someone who's played a lot of wilderness characters, I actively feel stressed for the first month of playing said character because the grind required to get your character to a 'safe' point can take a fair bit. For example, having bad ride can very easily get you killed. Falling off your mount in front of a hostile mob is a one-way ticket to making a new character.

What really doesn't help is how completely GIMPED you are if you're not playing a sparring clan, and even if you are playing in a sparring clan? If you're european you can be just as fucked, because people just wont be around to spar with in the first place. It's just my least favorite part of the game and I 100% admit that I will twink as much as I can to get to that checkpoint where I don't have to worry about common mobs ripping my head off.

[Synthesis]

I don't think permadeath is the problem. Neither is the danger level of the wilderness.

The problem for me, as I age, is that it takes entirely too much time to play this game and be good.

And by "good" I don't mean simple coded power. It takes entirely too much time to be "good" socially, as well.  A simple conversation about trading can take longer than riding from Allanak to Tuluk.

But yeah...the grind to become decent in mundane melee is bad. The grind to become excellent is excruciating.  And then you can die to some dumb shit like a magick nuke or poison or mega-RPT mobs anyway, and nobody will care.

Like just now.  I go to take a piss, and a mob comes in and ganks me.  22 days played down the drain. Fuck this game, for real. God damn, why did I even log back in. Ridiculous.

[Jimpka_Moss]

Yeah, we need piss boxes. Boxes you can put up around your char to keep the game out and PCs that would respect an idling char able to approach. It'd keep danger just at the edge, there, over there, present, still there, still danger, but outside the piss box. And for a set amount of time.

More and other changes, too. Death could be something we could all have fun with, instead of something that ends like this.

[Usiku]

Yeah, we need piss boxes. Boxes you can put up around your char to keep the game out and PCs that would respect an idling char able to approach. It'd keep danger just at the edge, there, over there, present, still there, still danger, but outside the piss box. And for a set amount of time.

Code Select Expand

> quit ooc Need to take a piss.

[Lotion]

Like just now.  I go to take a piss, and a mob comes in and ganks me.  22 days played down the drain. Fuck this game, for real. God damn, why did I even log back in. Ridiculous.

If I will be unable to watch the screen for more than 10 seconds I will simply log out. My current signature is because staff became annoyed with how often i typed <quit ooc taking a shit>. Now I just give vague non reasons and nobody has complained yet try <quit ooc logging out> or <quit ooc valid reason>

[Lotion]

of course i didn't read the next page and someone already said it

[Inks]

Yeah I mean you are a veteran complaining about dying while afk. Quit ooc solves that whole thing.

[KakkarotYaBoi]

I don't see an issue with the current state of death and everything that comes with it. I've died from alot of dumb shit, falling and breaking my neck, falling asleep at the keys, the dumbass list goes on. It's realism. RoleplayINTENSIVE. Please don't soften the game!

[Dusty Boots]

I don't see an issue with the current state of death and everything that comes with it. I've died from alot of dumb shit, falling and breaking my neck, falling asleep at the keys, the dumbass list goes on. It's realism. RoleplayINTENSIVE. Please don't soften the game!

I've never liked the 'realism' argument as it's rarely used to make the game easier, only harder. I understand that this person in particular kinda made a huge mistake by going afk in a dangerous place, but generally the problem of death does still stand. It's incredibly easy to die in a game where you're expected to invest hundreds/thousands of hours into your character, so I don't understand some of the callous reactions to people lamenting over this, it seems a little insensitive at times.

I don't think I would mind the dying issue if the early-character experience wasn't so bad. As some others have pointed out, the first month of grind is usually pretty unenjoyable and feels like a slog, on top of that you have the issue of rolling bad stats and all that comes with that.

[KakkarotYaBoi]

I don't see an issue with the current state of death and everything that comes with it. I've died from alot of dumb shit, falling and breaking my neck, falling asleep at the keys, the dumbass list goes on. It's realism. RoleplayINTENSIVE. Please don't soften the game!

I've never liked the 'realism' argument as it's rarely used to make the game easier, only harder. I understand that this person in particular kinda made a huge mistake by going afk in a dangerous place, but generally the problem of death does still stand. It's incredibly easy to die in a game where you're expected to invest hundreds/thousands of hours into your character, so I don't understand some of the callous reactions to people lamenting over this, it seems a little insensitive at times.

I don't think I would mind the dying issue if the early-character experience wasn't so bad. As some others have pointed out, the first month of grind is usually pretty unenjoyable and feels like a slog, on top of that you have the issue of rolling bad stats and all that comes with that.

I get what you mean about tweaking a certain level of ease to playing, but the way death is, in my opinion, is just fine. This is coming from a guy who really hasn't had any incredibly long lived character. It's part of the build up and good decision making to wait that extra thirty minutes for the sun to raise and visibility to increase. Or when you decide to QUIT OOC and not let your PC 'daydream krathstruck' while you go lay bricks in the bathroom. It really boils down to making safe decisions, and just like if we stuck your ass in some extremely harsh and malicious environment, there's always the looming threat of getting beasted on maneeeeeee!

[Riev]

I wonder if you'll change your tune when you HAVE had a longer lived PC get killed, almost solely because they're long lived and it would be a "statement" to have you killed rather than draw out an interesting rivalry.

Death is important. Its a permadeath game. Its important to know when you're doing something that could get you killed. AFK in wilderness is one thing. Being one-shot during the daytime in a shop with no real RP leading up to it? It makes death feel cheap.

[Windstorm]

Playing a long lived PC on Armageddon is entirely different from doing the meatgrinder thing. One's play experience is likely alien one way from the other.

When you're even entering these discussions, it's important to understand there's a chasmic span between playstyles here and yours isn't the only that matters. The entire experience some make for themselves revolves around killing PCs. Others can feel "kill them" is the only solution to anything, and that sort of attitude builds off of itself even for people who aren't into it. Personally I wish there were conflict developments that were somewhere in a grey area between "kill them" or "don't kill them." Again, I bring up kidnappings, ransom, and imprisonment. All of which are honestly more realistic, interactive, and interesting in a lot of situations than just "kill them and take their stuff."

I wouldn't argue necessarily for making death less frequent. I don't think that's what mansa was proposing. It's not even what I'm proposing. I'd just be really down, myself, for making death less abbreviated and shitty for the player whose PC is experiencing it. Players who just make a new PC weekly don't care or don't understand, but players who've had their PC for a long time, investing a lot of creativity and emotion, don't just crank out another desc, settle in for a grind, make a new PC and shrug it off the same.

* Side note, but sorry that happened to you Synthesis. Armageddon is (unfortunately sometimes) a difficult experience because you're either somewhere safe-ish with a feeling that you can roleplay, look away at something else going on, relax and enjoy yourself, OR you're sort of leaned forward focusing on it, ready to react to anything. There's almost no middle ground for me personally and it makes it hard for me to play, sometimes. I don't always want that level of intensity; I go through whole stretches of time, once in awhile, where I just avoid it.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

I believe part of the answer to this is in the recent RP/karma thread. I would be willing to bet there are only a small percentage of players that kill pc's, and this should be easy to know by staff who the PK'ers are. And out of those who kill on the regular, which ones are doing it for 'insert fake reason here'. Speaking for myself, the only two pc's I ever remember killing were: an accidental one where I thought I had mercy on, and one I was a half-giant who was ordered by a leader to smash someone's head.

[Windstorm]

Death is so important. You freaks who play the same character for 2+ IRL years should get force stored on principle just because you're missing out on one of the most important aspects of the game.

I'm certain we could all benefit from some time in each others' shoes.

[Trevalyan]

I'm certain we could all benefit from some time in each others' shoes.

This develops empathy, plus I'll have your shoes.

[LindseyBalboa]

I've almost lasted an RL year on a PC.

I would consider myself a 'frequently dead' player.

I would also probably lump myself into the 'PK-ok' group of players.

My thoughts:

-- Every PC is going to die on Armageddon at some point whether or not they've been played for a day or 15 real life years and this isn't a game where one gets  to pick when that is.

-- A long-lived PC isn't a rep-making target. A famous, well-known, connected, potentially powerful and rich PC is a target. They should probably invest in protection.

-- A 2 RL year played PC is not more important than a 1 day played PC. More (or less) time invested in a PC does not mean one story matters more than the other.

-- Every single player on Armageddon has the ability to stack commands. It's purely by choice if someone is initiating PK without any emote.

"BACKSTAB PC ; EMOTE emotes about backstabbing and coming up to PC and doing backstabby things" puts an emote into the pre-delay for the backstab command.

"EMOTE emotes about killing PC ; KILL PC" puts an emote out as the kill command is initiated.

-- "Mercy on" PKs, or PKs where the attacked PC is left alive and able to be emoted to before actual death, are great to offer if possible but not feasible for many situations. A second attack triggers criminal code in a city as a glaring example.

-- (a general statement) Player complaint if someone PKs you and it isn't satisfying. Discourse on the GDB/Discord is ineffective without that action. Every PK requires a PK log to be sent in, every PK can be scrutinized, and every player can improve. I once had to compile logs and go through my biographies to explain my character growth, previous PC interactions, and what all led up to a PK.

And lastly I'll use the opp to again suggest requiring a personality as well as a background. This is a roleplaying-required game and roleplay requires building a character's hopes, dreams, hates, likes, etc. Any PK (or PC action) should be easily explained by pointing to a pre-defined character personality and the growth they've experience since entering the grid.