Feedback on playing and log-ins

[kahuna]

I have to say I do not envy the job of Arm staff. I think the words of the creator of Circle mud can speak for me here.

So, you want to run your own MUD, huh?
If you're already an old hand at playing MUDs and you've decided you want to start one of your own, here's my advice: take a valium, lie down, and hide in a dark closet until the desire goes away. Just playing MUDs is masochistic enough, isn't it? Or are you trying to shave that extra point off your GPA, jump down that one last notch on your next job evaluation, or get rid of that pesky Significant Other for good? If you think silly distractions like having friends and seeing daylight are preventing you from realizing your full potential in the MUD world, MUD Administrator is the job for you.

Don't get me wrong: running a production MUD can be great fun. It can also be overburdened by politics and plagued by spiteful players devoted to making your life difficult, and otherwise be a highly frustrating endeavour. That's why I don't do it any more.

My point is that a little empathy can go a long way.

[Patuk]

We used to have leaders who couldn't fuck their underlings. Both nobles and templars Tuluk, once, and it was axed because of people I don't care to name lest this threat gets a third person banned.

Since this is a policy changed as recently as last year, I don't see this sort of thing changing anytime soon. It is what it is.

[Dar]

And you believe that this change was enacted so nobility could force their underlings into sex?

[Brytta Léofa]

We used to have leaders who couldn't fuck their underlings. ... Since this is a policy changed as recently as last year, I don't see this sort of thing changing anytime soon. It is what it is.

We could still ban sponsored roles (at least) from engaging in coercive sex RP or punishing someone who turns them down.

[Bebop]

It's not about banning sex for PCs, it's about people behind the keyboards understanding that coercion isn't consent and using critical thinking skills to not put people that you have power over into sexually compromising situations with a quick OOC consent for torture or something to that extent?  Some people like playing out power dynamics, but some people don't understand the difference between harassment.  I think the implication too that staff has been behind some of these things and the power further shifted is more of a frustration for some.  In some of the examples I gave in the past I feel like my consent was implicitly ignored and staff didn't really back me on that.  And then there is... as I mentioned, the policy that despite all of these mature topics and the mature very not PG-13 nature of the game... underage people are allowed to play.

[Haldol]

Haldol's Post, Part 1

Someone asked for the opinion of a Storyteller (or maybe it was a non-Producer staff?). I don't recall, but I'll give you some of my thoughts. These are only my thoughts and not the official policy of the game or any other staff member's.

To begin, allow me to introduce who I am. I started playing Armageddon in 1993. The first time I ever got on the internet was to learn to play Armageddon (not email, porn, stolen music, or a Netscape search). I had already learned about the game through a college friend who played in high school. However, my college didn't have internet so it was just a distant curiosity. When the internet arrived, my friend showed me the game and I was immediately hooked. For the last 29 years, I've played both as a player and sometimes as a staff member. I consider myself a player of the game who helps out by being a staff member. My goal is to have fun for myself and my fellow players.

Next, I want to remind us all what Armageddon is and should be. You can remind yourself here. This game is an RPI MUD set in the harshest of environments with PERMANENT DEATH. The banner promises murder, corruption, and betrayal. When you make a character and play the game, you should understand that your character is MOST LIKELY going to die and quite possibly not on your own terms, timing, or as you'd like. I'm not posting this to be a smart ass (though it may seem that way) but to seriously remind us that this is not a fair game. Some characters at their start (like nobles and templars) will be more powerful or influential than many characters can ever achieve. The game is built this way with imbalance, injustice, and inequality.

Now that we're all reminded of the Armageddon setting and its harshness, I think everyone wants to play this game by the same set of rules. Everyone wants to be treated equally within the game such that if any other player did the same things with their character as you did with yours, the outcome would be the same.  That's the perfect system. I strive for that as a staff member and believe everyone else on the staff feels the same. However, that is not life. We're all humans. Sometimes people just don't get along. We've likely all had two friends that don't get along with each other for what seems like no good reason. Sometimes this can happen between a player and a staff member.

This leads to a very reasonable request. Why can't I choose the staff member with whom I wish to interact? The reason is simply logistics. I'm on the southern team and run the Allanaki Templars and the Steel Talons. I play about 10 - 15 hours a week as a staff member. If a Tuluki templar requested switching from their staff to me (which might seem very reasonable), I couldn't do a good job of it. I've never played a Tuluki templar. I have not read all the new Tuluk documentation. I do not regularly monitor or interact with PCs in Tuluk. I doubt I could name 5 Tuluki PCs right now. Adding a Tuluki templar to my oversight would drain a lot of time from the area I already work and I don't think I'd do a good job.

As I said, I think of myself as a player before a staff member. Much like all of you, I have had two staff members (no longer on staff) with whom I didn't get along. How did I deal with it? I just played in different areas and everything was fine. If they switched areas, I'd move away on my next PC. That's my suggestion. If that doesn't work, just don't join the clans that they are over. That's my advice.

I read much of the feedback in this thread, but I didn't read all of it.

I noticed that many, Many, MANY times some players tell a story from their perspective without complete knowledge and make inaccurate assumptions that fuel feelings of unfairness, staff abuse, or some other complaint. I'd like to share with you a plot from over ten years ago. Here is, in my opinion, a great PC-driven plot.

Now that you've read it. I want to dissect this plot and show how it COULD spiral from a PC-driven plot into assumptions of a staff-fueled story of PC abuse.

The original goal of this character was to become a "master burglar".  I decided to make a half-elven burglar named Bok and give it a try. I started in Tuluk and soon found myself unable to find employment and unable to find a lock pick. Eventually, I stole a kank outside a store and used it to collect herbs from the eastern grasslands. I generally avoided combat. As I found more herbs and my haggling improved, I was able to generate a reasonable profit. At the time, most rogues dressed in all black and wore footpads. I decided to try a different approach. I purchased lightweight but fancy hunting armor. I started calling myself a hunter. Eventually,  I purchased a longbow and quiver. I even added a few arrows for added realism. People started asking me to hunt things for them. I accepted the jobs. However, I didn't hunt anything. Instead, I purchased hides and skins from the markets usually selling them to PCs at a loss. It didn't matter because I was expanding my herb business. As a half-elf, I became a talented rider and started exporting grassland herbs to Luir's then the elven outpost. Eventually, I learned to cross the Red Desert. With multiple mounts and hard riding, I was able to avoid the gith and export herbs to Allanak.

It starts fairly simple. A half-elven burglar wants to become a master burglar in Tuluk, but instead winds up pretending to be a ranger and makes coins as an herb trader.

Business was soon booming. The Tuluki needed things from Allanak and vice-versa. Eventually, I rented apartments in both Allanak and Tuluk. I soon found myself as what would later be called a "wealthy independent". I expanded my business into information. I sold rumors to both city-state merchants and many noble's aides. Selling secrets was easy money and had a 100% profit margin.

Bok is starting to become a "player" and in both city-states. That's a dangerous game. However, it can also be a lot of fun. I suggest everyone try playing a spy at least once. It's a lot of fun even when you fail.

I finally acquired a lock pick! I looked everywhere trying to find a lock I could actually pick. It was a monumental task, but eventually, I found a lock I could practice unlocking without a key. As I got better, I found better locks and learned to open them as well. Eventually, there wasn't an apartment that I couldn't break into with my lock pick. I soon learned that being a burglar was like being a shepherd. You can't over thin your flock or you'll be left with nothing.

Whenever your apartment gets robbed, it's almost ALWAYS done by another player. I've never heard of a staff member animating an NPC and robbing a PC's apartment. Not once.

Bok was already wealthy, so I only took unique or exotic things. I started following rich PCs to learn where they lived, only to strike their apartments later.  However, while shadowing a wealthy noble's aide in Tuluk, I accidentally followed her into a new barracks that I didn't know existed. She promptly quit the game, leaving me stranded inside the barracks. I waited inside still hiding until another PC arrived. However, I was discovered before following him outside the barracks. Soon I was captured by NPC guards.  A PC noble and PC Jihaen templar were summoned and I was interrogated at length...

Finally, Bok finds a little drama. What if Bok wished up and said, "I accidentally shadowed a PC into this barracks. They logged out. Can someone let me out? I wouldn't have done it if I'd had enough time to react." From my perspective as a staff member, I think this is a gray area. I'd be fine with letting them out. I'd be fine with having the NPC guards capture Bok. I LOVE that the outcome was placed into the hands of other PCs (the noble and templar). Let the PCs run the story and I think these PCs did a great job. However, I can also see how some players of Bok might not want to be captured, or interrogated, and feel they should have never been placed in this predicament. Some players always store when something goes wrong. They are cheating themselves of the full Armageddon experience. After Bok's wish, what if the player submits a staff complaint? How should it be handled? If the outcome isn't to their liking, what should that player do? Can you see how this is a gray area? Can you see it's a difficult thing to answer? Can you see how there can be more than one reasonable answer? If I polled more than a dozen current staff members, I'd wager the answers would vary. That's life. The outcome might come down to opinion and who's online that day. Please don't take these situations personally. We, as staff, just want to make the world react in a realistic manner to push much of the story back to the PCs to finish. That's what I like to do.

It would have been completely within the rights of the PC noble and PC templar to promptly execute poor Bok. He was a thief and had been caught breaking into the barracks of a prominent noble house. That might have been the case. However, I decided to beg for my life. I promised to do whatever they want if they'd just let me live. To my surprise,  they gave me a dangerous assignment. I would be exiled from Tuluk until I assassinated a specific beautiful and long-lived Lady Borsail. In addition, I would spy for the Jihaen templar and give him regular reports via the Way.

I give major props to the PC noble and templar here. Personally, I like pushing stories that (when possible) avoid the death of another PC, especially on the first infraction. However, the PCs got to make the choices here. It would be fine if they'd killed poor Bok, right? You don't break into a noble's barracks.  If Bok was executed here, could he make a player complaint? What should the outcome be? What if Bok's player gets mad and quits? What should the staff do (if anything)? In the end, I think things worked out perfectly.

[Haldol]

Haldol's Post, Part 2

So I was released and exiled from Tuluk, I headed immediately south. When I arrived in Allanak, I wondered how would I kill such a prominent noble? I couldn't even kill a gith. I decided to learn everything I could about my target. The news wasn't good. It turned out the Lady Borsail was quite long-lived despite her youthful appearance and beauty.  Worse she rarely left the Borsail estate. When she did, she was surrounded by retainers, both NPC and PC it seemed. While watching her across the Trader's Inn, I counted 5 guards protecting her. As just a burglar, I was never going to survive a direct assault against her guards and the assisting soldiers. I felt like I'd been given an impossible task. However, I don't store characters. I decided to keep calm and carry on.

Lots of players would store here. I love that Bok didn't.

During this time, I regularly reported to both the Tuluki PC noble and the Tuluki PC templar that had exiled me. As time passed, I must have proved my worth because to my surprise they pardoned me as long as I continued reporting and working on killing the Lady Borsail. Soon I was making money again and decided I needed help if I was to ever kill the Lady Borsail. However, making trusted friends as a half-elf isn't easy. However, there are natural allies for thieves if one knows where to look. For Bok, these allies would be the gemmed. I started using my wealth to help the lowly gemmed of Allanak. I paid them to do simple things and obtained rare things they desired. Eventually, I befriended a very talented Whiran. This would prove to be the break I needed. Working with a Whiran, I was able to steal some very interesting things and make even more money.

This is an interesting twist. It just goes to show that useful servants can earn surprising rewards not available to other commoners. Another player might complain that they didn't get the same treatment as Bok when they were caught stealing. However, they don't know all that's transpired. What if they complain about the PC templar? What should the staff do? How much should they explain? If they say too much it might ruin the rest of the story. The spread of OOC knowledge is one of the most potent plot killers. This is Armageddon. It's not a fair game. You don't know the whole story for a long time. That's what makes the game both great and maddening.

With the extra coins, I started playing with a skill that no longer exists in the game, trap. A simple explanation is that you'd use smoke powder to make things explode. You could close and trap a mailbox. When someone opened it, the trap went off and injured them. However, there was a catch. When you failed, the trap blasted you. I spent tens of thousands of sids building and experimenting with traps. One day, by accident, I built a very devastating trap. When I mishandled it, I was nearly killed. However, that which does not kill us makes us stronger. I theorized that I could make a trap so powerful that it would kill whoever opened it.

I miss trap. Maybe one day I'll talk the Producers into bringing it back! Who's with me? *emote grins mischievously*

Risking life and limb, I built my first super trap. Having succeeded, I needed to test it. Now, I admit this was cruel, but I needed answers. I went to the market and bought a kank load of gear. I headed out and found a spot on the North Road. There I sprinkled and arranged the gear all over the road, leaving my kank, and my super trap. I climbed over the side of the Shield Wall, did my best to hide, and watched to see what happened. Eventually, an unlucky dwarf rode up and found what he must have thought was the remains of a gith raid. He collected everything, including my super trap. He opened it. Boom, he was dead. I rode back to Allanak with two mounts and a dwarf load of salvaged gear.

Bok, you bastard! You just blasted away an innocent dwarf. Other players are often the cruelest opponents. What if the dwarf complained? Should Bok be OOCly punished? What should the staff do? Should this plot end here? No, it's Armageddon and sometimes the game is randomly cruel. That's my opinion. I could be wrong.

Now, I had the skill and knowledge to kill. I also had the perfect plan. I had lamented many times of the impossibility of assassinating the Lady Borsail. This time I reported to the Tuluki noble and templar that I had a plan and would strike within the next few weeks. Of course, I mentioned how dangerous it would be and that I might never contact them again. They must have spread the word because the next day I was contacted by a different Tuluki templar. This one wore a white robe. She claimed to have been following my progress and told me that if I succeeded. I would receive a bounty of 20k. Cha-ching!

Another plot twist from another PC templar who wants to kill another PC noble in another city. Politics is a dangerous beast.

I staked out the Trader's Inn for days waiting to spot my mark. Eventually, she arrived to sit at her usual table.  I bolted back to my apartment. I changed into my super stealthy ninja suit. I spiced up. I contacted my gemmed friend and went into my best super stealth mode. I grabbed my super trap and headed back to the Trader's Inn. I peered inside. There she was, heavily guarded by her full entourage.  I wished up to warn the staff. Then I slipped into the Trader's Inn, whispered into the Lady Borsail's ear, and handed her my super trap. Then I bolted in a strange stealthy pattern around the city, trying best to lose any future hunters, before returning to my apartment.  I put up my barrier, drew my best tainted blades, and hid in the corner for a full in-game day. The next day, I walked by the Trader's Inn, peeking inside. To my delight, I spotted the bartender, now on his hands and knees, cleaning a large crimson stain off the floor. I couldn't contact the Lady Borsail. I hit the bars. Word was spreading. I had assassinated the Lady Borsail.

Nice work Bok. However, I bet the player of the Lady Borsail was devastated by this assassination. A beloved and long-lived PC noble blown to pieces in an instant. Could she file a player complaint? Maybe she thinks it was a bug? What should the staff do? What should be explained? What should be left in the dark? How will this player handle this? How would you feel? Does this player feel they were abused by staff or not getting adequate communication? Lots of questions with lots of different answers.

I returned to Tuluk at the invitation of the white-robed templar. She greeted me with her loyal bard who carried a metal sword. We went for tea in the Heart. I told her the story of my assassination of the Lady Borsail, only leaving out the bit about my Whiran friend. I expected to receive my reward and continue as a loyal Tuluki minion.  However, I was instead subdued, tortured, and executed by the templar, her half-giant guards, and the bard with the metal sword.

I didn't expect this to happen. If I were the PC templar, I might not have paid the bounty, but I'd have kept a deadly, useful henchman. However, I didn't play the PC templar. Templars can kill people. They don't need to be fair or even reasonable. What if Bok complained? How should it be handled? What should the staff say to the PC templar (if anything)? Maybe the player of Bok doesn't know the whole story. Maybe the original PC noble is bribing the PC templar to remove any loose ends. We just don't know. That's Armageddon. Playing a character like Bok is what Armageddon is supposed to be in my book. He experienced the joy of incredible triumph and the agony of unexpected defeat. This is the story and feeling you don't get watching a movie or reading a novel. It's what has kept me playing the same game for almost 30 years. I thank you all for making it possible and making this game so great. I applaud all the players new and old, current and retired, for allowing me to have so much fun.

However, she made a critical mistake. Unknown to her, Bok made more than one super trap. He kept another inside his backpack as revenge just in case he was ever betrayed. After Bok's death, it took me a while before making another PC because I'd grown quite attached to him. When I eventually arrived in Tuluk with my next PC, I was delighted to read on the IC board that a certain bard wielding a metal blade had been blown to pieces in a tragic accident. Karma, like an angry white-robed Tuluki, can be a real bitch.

This seems too good to be true, but it really did happen. Revenge is a dish best served cold, right? Could the bard complain? Maybe it was a miskey? What should the staff do? Should he get a resurrection? I don't think so. Armageddon is a cruel mistress, even when you have a bronze sword.

As far as I know, Bok's story really happened in the game and required no staff assistance. It was a 100% completely player-original and player-run plot. Was it fair? No. Was it just? No. Was there murder? Yes. Was there corruption? Yes. Was there betrayal? Yes. It's a classic Armageddon story.

When you read the story, can you see how players might make incorrect assumptions? Can you see how feelings might get hurt? Can you empathize with all those that lost their beloved characters?

As a staff member, I'm trying to help generate more great stories. I don't know how you'll fit into the next. Will you be the dwarf? Bok? One of the templars? The poor Lady Borsail? I don't know, but I hope you'll have fun along the way.

I hope players like Is Friday, Delirium, and Ender return in the future. I'd love to play the game with you again in the future. However, this post is really for players who are playing the game. I want to give you a glimpse of the (sometimes difficult) choices staff can face and how sometimes there can be more than one good answer. I've been on staff three times now. In all the years of playing the game, I believe the current group of staff members is the best I've ever seen. The days of having your character killed for making a wish are long gone. There are better rules, better documentation, and better oversight. Armageddon is a huge game with a huge history. Please be patient as things slowly change (for the better I think). You have to learn to ride the elephant. You can't push it.

Anyway, this took me almost two hours to research, write, and proofread. Now, I need to get back upstairs to the office with the other staff members and get those plots rolling.

[Master Color]

Is that really staff's line here? Players are just making incorrect assumptions? Is that it?

[Is Friday]

Honestly a staffer posting rose colored glasses stories really tracks with the key problem here: the system is literally reinforcing tradition and conservatism over progress.

[deskoft]

Haldol did not say this was the official stance of the staff though. It's their view and just like staff has respected our views, we should respect their. If I am not wrong, they're a storyteller, so it's not their place to answer about complaints on other staffers or overarching policy. I also want a response on what is being done to improve OOC communication and make sure abusive behavior is not happening on those channels. I am troubled that players I have witnessed as players and were pretty good experienced these things.

But I don't think Haldol's response is part of the problem and they were very clear this is not a response on the staff's policy, which most of you know is the responsibility of higher-ranked staffers. I appreciate their POV, I agree it's not answering to the main problem, but it's good information on why some of the suggestions in this thread is impractical.

[Armaddict]

This whole thread has become incredibly sad.

[Furious George]

I've seen nothing in here driving the needle back to wanting to play again because everything is fixed or there is some sort of community understanding.

However, from the playerbase side...this thread allowed me to speak to a player I'd had some recent bad blood and history with, we communicated as adults, and made our apologies with an open discussion and both came away (I think) feeling better about our PCs at the time, the decisions made, but....not the staff's handling of it.

We adulted, got it out of the system and moved on.

This might be a missing piece of the puzzle from staff to player:. Personal empathy to the discussed experience.

Haldol just described at the end that gives him a workload that leaves him unaware of most of the playerbase's characters names, much less their motivations.  If the player doesn't report in, irregardless of location, staff might have no idea wtf you're doing with your character.  However, on the flip side, it's like admitting your head is in the sand. 

I quit playing because my last straw has to be my last straw, or it will just make me nuts.  There's no outreach, conversation nor discussion when it feels personal most of the time, just closed requests, moderation or colored bullet points in your wall of a report that doesn't match your time investment on submitting the thing.

Maybe I'm in a minority, that literally every response I get from one or two staffers SEEMS TO ME (as in my opinion)  to either be threatening or condescending.

I too showed up in 1993.  It was a lot of fun, sometimes, a lot of headaches, absolutely, but now, all these years later, I'm just kind of wondering what, at the end, I even got out of it aside from random 'one time at band camp' stories that I can share with maybe 3 people in this world because to anyone else it sounds insane.

This is a long thread that I've promised myself I'll only read at work, time I've dedicated to being annoyed with something not work related, but I'm only seeing more stories like mine.  While that's reassuring as a person, it doesn't fill me with hope for the future.

[CirclelessBard]

Haldol did not say this was the official stance of the staff though. It's their view and just like staff has respected our views, we should respect their. If I am not wrong, they're a storyteller, so it's not their place to answer about complaints on other staffers or overarching policy. I also want a response on what is being done to improve OOC communication and make sure abusive behavior is not happening on those channels. I am troubled that players I have witnessed as players and were pretty good experienced these things.

But I don't think Haldol's response is part of the problem and they were very clear this is not a response on the staff's policy, which most of you know is the responsibility of higher-ranked staffers. I appreciate their POV, I agree it's not answering to the main problem, but it's good information on why some of the suggestions in this thread is impractical.

A post that is "really for players who are playing the game" as Haldol put it is a bit jarring in a thread that exists to collect concerns from players that don't play anymore. It's not like Haldol's response doesn't have a place on the GDB - it certainly does, and it was useful to get Haldol's perspective to understand how staff see the game. I just don't think that the place for that post is after two or three pages of players talking about the abuses they suffered at the hands of current/former staff. I think staff still need to reply to those concerns, and it's understandable that a storyteller can't speak to those concerns specifically, but someone has to. The people replying to Haldol's post, I think, just want to keep the previous discussion on track.

[Furious George]

It also goes to great lengths to point out it's about rising above the perception of ic abuse by staff to solder forward...

Unfortunately the abused being referenced and ill feelings that keep coming up are from staff's responses ooc that are more damaging.

It's easy to deal with your PC being abused somehow if you aren't dealing with replies to reports that actually clear up the issue.  Instead it is sometimes delivered like gas and matches with terse replies, massive gaps in discussion or worse.

It's disingenuous to believe it's all tied to how mean npcs are.

[Patuk]

And you believe that this change was enacted so nobility could force their underlings into sex?

No.

[Suhuy]

Haldol's Post, Part 1.
I noticed that many, Many, MANY times some players tell a story from their perspective without complete knowledge and make inaccurate assumptions that fuel feelings of unfairness, staff abuse, or some other complaint.

There are certain phrases so overused they now have about as much value as the currency of a 3rd world country. One is "Find out IC". Another is referring to yourself as "volunteer". They've become so cliché they're best avoided even when they make sense to use.

And we can add to that list any variation of: "there's more happening behind the scenes than you know". Stated once or twice it sounds like well, okay, fair enough. Players lack the bird's eye view staff possess. So, okay. But stated repeatedly over many years (as has become the case) and it starts to sound more like "we know more than you ever could so shut up and trust our word. We're right and you're wrong".

When you begin to realize how these sort of stock phrases sound after repeated use, the best course of action is to find a different way of explaining the situation. Otherwise don't be surprised when players think you're just being a complete asshat even if in your mind you're genuinely trying to help.

[Barsook]

.

[Furious George]

deleted quote

I don't think you meant to open the door of victim blaming/shaming, you don't come across that way, but this could be read that way.

The mud has had to evolve more in the last few years, socially, than it did the previous like 20 combined.  It's an unenviable task for staff, so a lot of it has taken time and effort... however there's a long way to go

[Barsook]

I took it back, sorry.

[Abaya]

On one side, coming from experience of moderating other online roleplaying games, it seems absurd the concept of staff not having idea what is going on in the wider game, and this was frustrating, but I came to realize it's not laziness or being overly attached to the prospects of a group of clans, but actually helps stop that potential because the NPC leaders can only react with what they would know IC, and seems like it's a safeguard against the issue of "super players" that the game has apparently had in the past - which, well, its not unique to Armageddon, it's a human problem that every online roleplaying game gets in the early stages when working out systems of trust and policies, where now staff seem to have higher standards, it seems like anyway.

Barsook, from reading your posts I'm pretty sure you mean well and didn't think that through, but that that is just like nitroglycerin to the fire, it's attacking a whole segment of players of all different viewpoints. Being (virtually) sexually active or putting effort into one's (virtual) appearance are not the same as "Wanting to get in trouble", that sounds way too much like "She was asking for it." This reminds me of an author who got complaints about including sex scenes, so she wrote more in. The fact that sex is seen so negatively by some people is more reason that it's a good thing for people to be engaging with the concepts around it in fiction, so that people understand the issues better in the real world.

On the Discord chat someone named in the main room one of the Templars engaging in the "I have weapons that can kill you instantly/go into this locked or guarded door and hi, me horny" Weinsten-esque stuff, and Halaster saying that those kind of behaviors from Templars would not be acceptable now, I am guessing there might be an official post coming, but it was said. So that's good.

[Abaya]

There's something important to be said here, too, about Armageddon's setting - it's bleak, and features unfortunate aspects of human nature as well as elements of history that we're all familiar with and don't agree with, but that's part of what makes it so powerful as a setting. When Zalanthas was created by the founders, I don't know exactly what happened in those early days but obviously it's well known one of the leading figures was obviously Sanvean - And she, and the others who helped, deliberately took many of the stereotypes that these games had at the time and turned them on their head. Completely equal rights and abilities regardless of gender or color, and discrimination explicitly stated to be not a concept that exists in the lore of Zalanthas, and the roleplay being enforced to respect that. Way, way, ahead of her time in so many ways, to give people a vision of what a better humanity could be like, even in extreme adversity, that there's still hope that people can do better.

Gender does not affect your character in any way except for which pronouns are used to refer to your character (he/she/they, etc.). The genders are all equal on Zalanthas.

Avoid imposing your own interpretations and norms on the game world. For example, there is no sexism on Zalanthas; different genders are treated equally. This means that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it.

Humans, for instance, distrust elves, and elves, in return, view humans as inferior. However, racism, in the modern sense, is non-existent in Zalanthas.

Dungeons and dragons was mentioned as being... Somehow better? But well... Compare what she is doing today, to where they are now? (lol it looks like a parody almost) Dungeons and dragons has almost no audience outside America, it's just not really had much of a cultural impact on most of the world, and likely never will as awareness of it fades. Armageddon on the other hand has an incredible mix of people of all backgrounds, and people have consistently noted that the emphasis on roleplay attracts more people, especially women, that would not be involved in those type of numbers-and-statistics-heavy games normally (because it makes them BORING). I think we've seen it growing as a game, and there's hope.

[Is Friday]

Would just like to point out that I run D&D professionally and I host a very diverse clientele from around the world.

[Abaya]

Sure, I bet it's not very many, though?

[Riev]

Dungeons and dragons was mentioned as being... Somehow better? But well... Compare what she is doing today, to where they are now? (lol it looks like a parody almost) Dungeons and dragons has almost no audience outside America, it's just not really had much of a cultural impact on most of the world, and likely never will as awareness of it fades.

Dungeons and Dragons awareness did fade, and really only made a 'slight' resurgence with the streaming world and the ability to bring your game to other people. Its not "international" because up until like 2017, Wizards of the Coast didn't localize any of the rulebooks or editions. Its disingenuous to say "ha ha Dungeons and Dragons will go away".

When Zalanthas was created by the founders, I don't know exactly what happened in those early days but obviously it's well known one of the leading figures was obviously Sanvean - And she, and the others who helped, deliberately took many of the stereotypes that these games had at the time and turned them on their head. Completely equal rights and abilities regardless of gender or color, and discrimination explicitly stated to be not a concept that exists in the lore of Zalanthas, and the roleplay being enforced to respect that.

Zalanthas was adapted from Athas, and I'm wondering if you were around during even the ISCA days to know how it was 'created'. We all love Cat, she is the mother/grandmother/deity we all wish we had... but... she did not create the game. She created the Gypsies (Tan Muark) and gave them water slides and iron cooking pots and gave one of the NPCs the objective sdesc descriptor "handsome". She also famously (?) had a character with the sdesc "the man with the funny pants". The game was different.

The setting is bleak. Your characters will get into bad situations. Players of characters whose situations are/were doomed from the start don't react well to the death, but there are things that COULD be done to alleviate that. There are things that ARE done that exacerbate it. Veterans that are not playing were asked why. They have tried to explain why. There were emotions thrown all around.

I might suggest to all the "yeah but" people out there to just listen. Me included. Listen to what people are saying and absorb it. Not every point requires your input.

[Abaya]

I was one of the ones that left too, for what it's worth, figured it was obvious but probably worth saying - yeah I'm not one of you elder players, but I feel strongly about all this stuff too, but what I am trying to say is I think there's hope. I think everyone is trying to be better more. I'll shut up!