Apartments deathtraps and stealth

[Fredd]

killing someone in a city should take a bit of planning, a bit of following and learning a routine. But the answer isn't to make it harder for the people who get the info people need for politics. it's to put things in place to make people roleplay the killing out more.

This is a derail, but these statements honestly make me perplexed.  Not out of lack of understanding the feeling, but what people are actually expecting out of murder scenes.  Do you want people to draw it out, giving a chance for the way to be used?  You can already unlock the door and open it and flee during combat.  Do you want staff to retcon consequences of slowing their roll, so that people are more comfortable giving time before initiating combat?  Do you want people to treat these combat scenes like sparring matches, which are what they are precisely because you feel safe that you won't die, so you don't mind typing out a long emote because if you do get hit hard, the opponent has mercy on and will likely disengage for you?  Do you want every murder scene to stop being brutal and short, and have antagonists or hired killers take the time to explain what's going on, so that they can be the 'stupid villain' that we all make fun of in movies?

What actual roleplay do you want to 'make' them do during murder scenes that is more satisfying than the action itself?  This is one of those places where people say people aren't roleplaying, but the action itself -is- the roleplay.  It is not highly interactive, it's usually quite urgent and filled with actions and reactions.  Do you want combat slowed down altogether so that it's drawn out as long as possible, despite just having the same result, and the same element of trying to react as best and quickly as possible but just with more delays?  What do you mean by 'make them roleplay' it?

I said none of that.
What I legit expect out of an assassin is a kill emote.

I have literally walked to my apartment knowing someone was following me to kill me (ooc gut feeling. you get stabbed enough you'll get them sometimes) And stopped, giving them a moment to do their thing before I logged. As I remember it, the killer was kind enough to do a quick kill emote too. I died fairly happy that day, (this is how my last templar's aide died like 2 years ago)

What I would LIKE, is after someone is contracted to kill someone, there is a bunch of stealth rp where the assassin finds the best time to strike, and does it.  (in the last example, the assassin set up a meeting with me the night before, so he could follow me and kill me. Knowing my char trusted his enough to meet him)
Instead of just backstabbing a dude in the middle of a street during broad daylight, cause the code says you can.

edit: And the harder we make it to kill people in the out of the way places where planning is required. The more "middle of the road broad daylight backstabs with no kill emote cause the killer has no time to type it" we will get.

[Greve]

I agree in principle. It's really idiotic that you can shadow someone into their apartment, or hide in there (what, in a vase?), and assassinate them with impunity. At the same time, however, there's another issue from the opposite side of the spectrum: if you can't lolgank somebody in a manner in which they can't really react, you pretty much can't kill them. For the most part, there are three ways that you can kill somebody on ArmageddonMUD:

1) Just straight-up instakill them. One-hit sap, half-giant headshot, supermeganuke spell, whatever. Just leave no conceivable opportunity for the target to react by literally killing them in one move, or maybe two consecutive hits that happen so fast that they just don't have time to type anything.

2) Render them unconscious or immobile in some fashion. Poisons are the common method, and subdue from someone with militia clanning, and certain spells. With the recent change to poisons, the scarcity of anyone playing in a militia, and the generally uncommon nature of the unnamed spells that can accomplish the same, this is possibly the least of these concerns now.

3) Get them behind a closed door. While your own apartment isn't utterly inescapable (unless they steal your key or something), it takes a seriously cool hand to manage to type out 'unlock door, open door, flee s' while somebody is beating you up. Of course, they can't do that in a cell or some other place where they don't get to open the door at all.

But outside of these three methods, you basically can't kill somebody. I mean, if they volunteer to stay and die, you can, and that's not entirely unheard-of; but by and large, people seek out these three tactics precisely because it can be basically impossible to kill someone without them. No matter how ultra-skilled your fighter dude is, if you don't have eight other fuckers with you to gang-jump somebody, you have to employ one of these methods. I could say a thing or two about the strength stat and bludgeoning weapons here, but I won't.

It definitely sucks to fall prey to the wildly unrealistic nature of "herp derp, he snuck in behind you and you somehow didn't fucking notice when you closed the door," but if we get rid of these stupid tricks without changing any of the design flaws that lead players to pursue them to exclusion, we open up another problem: if you can't render somebody helpless or kill them before they can react, you can't kill them unless they volunteer to die. And it's a shitty way to die, don't get me wrong, but it's often the only way to get to that dude who spends 90% of his life moving between the Gaj's barroom and his apartment upstairs.

The fact that flee is an instantaneous action is a large part of the culprit here, but it's not the only one. Another problem is the fact that unless you have immense strength or the ability to render somebody helpless, you aren't a threat to anybody. It doesn't matter how skilled your warrior is--if you're sporting above average strength on your 100-day human, and your weapons aren't dripping with peraine, you're not killing anybody unless a locked door stands between them and insta-flee, you can do upwards of 100 damage in one go, or they stick around and die willingly. Anything else and they just have too easy of a time getting away, so nobody bothers to try anything else.

[Brytta Léofa]

It definitely sucks to fall prey to the wildly unrealistic nature of "herp derp, he snuck in behind you and you somehow didn't fucking notice when you closed the door,"

My wife knows a woman who owns and trains German Shepherds. She got really into them after, well--she had one German Shepherd, just your normal pet-grade dog. She came home one night and the dog just LAUNCHED right past her onto the uninvited dude who was sneaking in after. (She had no idea the guy was there.)

Morals:
1) sneak is real
2) hide is real
3) you need to get you a gortok pup

[Greve]

Nobody is able to physically walk through a doorway that you're in the process of closing without your noticing. She might not have noticed the guy as she stepped across the threshold, but it's not as if he could have got inside undetected.

Especially not in a world of murder, corruption and betrayal where people would naturally be wary of these things.

[LindseyBalboa]

Nobody is able to physically walk through a doorway that you're in the process of closing without your noticing. She might not have noticed the guy as she stepped across the threshold, but it's not as if he could have got inside undetected.

Especially not in a world of murder, corruption and betrayal where people would naturally be wary of these things.

I bet elves could.

[Veselka]

As Greve points out, it's a 'Realism vs Playability' sort of argument that crops up now and again.

If anything, hide should have a timer that runs out if you're in a small room with someone alone. It still gives the advantage to the person with stealth, in that they can act first, but they can't ad nauseum remain hidden, even if someone doesn't have scan.

I think until hide is changed to have defining traits as to where you are hiding (hide couch, even), the binary status of 'hidden better than invisibility' or 'not hidden at all' can be a bit wonky when it comes to realism.

And yeah...I haven't liked the sudden apartment deaths that i've been victim to over the years. But as Greve points out, PK isn't simply determined unless you are using relatively safe methods, such as ranged combat, poisons, overpowering strength/reeling, or just overmatched in general.

It also requires a bit of trust/faith that the scenario you are in won't be taken advantage of either way -- by the person initiating the PK, or the victim. I personally don't mind when people get away, or those near misses. They make for interesting stories, nemesis, and adversaries. But it's rare to find someone who is of a similar belief as you when it comes to conflict in the game world.

Often people either throw everything at you in the hopes that it overpowers (multiple poisons, multiple delivery methods, several PCs versus one, etc), or they try to set up a location/scenario where the chances of escape are slim to nil. Unfortunately, one of the long-standing tropes when it comes to the latter is a room with a locked door, which overwhelmingly means apartments.

I still won't play the PC who 'doesn't go to apartments because my employer said so'. It's exceedingly weird and out of place when that kind of logic comes into play -- then again, it's also somewhat based in reality, and I don't think we can equate our modern understanding of privacy and locked doors and apartments to that of Zalanthas. I think people would understand that apartments, locked doors, are a knife that cuts both ways.

If you are the kind of person who needs to hold on to a lot of stuff, who prefers to have privacy for their intimate encounters, and who wants to rent a place of their own rather than share a dormitory with many other people, you would also likely understand the risks involved with that. As someone else pointed out (najdorf), it's a realistic impetus to rent with roommates, to sleep in a warehouse office or dormitory that is shared by other people, and to join clans/groups that have bolstered security and safeguards against criminal elements.

Most of the modern built apartments have safeguards built in -- whether it is communal areas, NPC guards that patrol and scan, or watched/listened to rooms that can be observed from a distance. I do think a lot of it has to do with skills of a criminal nature being binary in how they are executed, you either succeed or fail.

I'd love to see 'pick' actually kick in crimcode on a critical fail for a change, so that guards patrolling in apartment hallways know to arrest someone.

I'd love to see hide have a timer when you are in certain rooms based on your skill level or 'roll' of that hide check, short of reworking hide so that you have to actively hide behind something when indoors, or specify 'hide crowd' when in outdoor city rooms.

Stealth in general is a pretty powerful tool. It isn't that I want to see it nerfed per se, but it definitely stands out as a skillset that isn't 'realistic' when it comes to the foils against it.

I don't think people should need to necessarily scan to find someone who is ultra-hidden, and I don't think people with (master) hide should feel invulnerable in certain scenarios based on their skill alone. I think hide should work best in the city when you can blend in with the crowds, and in rooms that are described as either being cluttered or shadowed. Brightly lit hallways should be difficult to hide in, particularly those that are not well populated. Rooftops and other locations where your vertical silhouette would be clearly obvious should make hide more difficult as well.

Having played several successful assassin types myself, I can say that reliance on the unrealistic coded aspect of hide is well established and understood by 'sneaky types', and used to its every advantage. I'm not sure it's very realistic, or not OP, considering the foils against it are scant and passive in nature (scan).

[Dune Bunny]

I don't know the amount of coding that would be required for such ideas, but I personally would make it a lot more difficult, while not at all impossible.

1) I'd make stealth/shadowing through any exit with a door connected to it come with a heavy penalty on that specific move. If you can actually follow someone through a door into a small room and get around them when they close it so you're not seen, you're kind of a wizard, but I wouldn't call it impossible.

2) Apartment rooms would also come with a stealth penalty. I'd start it based on room size and clutter, and go from there. A tiny apartment would be near impossible to hide in. If you're in a 10x10 room with one or more other people, you're simply not hiding without magick. Small rooms would have the largest penalty to stealth, while larger ones would grow gradually easier to hide in.
-A room with next to no clutter/furniture would also hold a penalty, as the sneak would have next to nothing to hide behind. As the room grows closer and closer to its weight allowance, the penalty could lessen, and perhaps eventually even become a bonus. Hiding in a noble dining hall with massive drapes, large tables, sofas, etc would provide a lot of opportunity for a sneak.

3) I'd do the above with lots of other rooms in the game world. Some areas in the games mention such terms as 'shoulder width', for example. If you're in a hallway that barely has room to walk past another person, you're not going to be hiding from anyone there.

The fact that people are shadowed through such areas, then through a door, into a small room, and never seen by their victim is eye-twitchable. It's also likely led to lots of stories being cut short in a way that's left a bad taste in people's mouths. I'd admittedly giggle if a few sneaks came up gemmed for such witchery. 

My characters often see having the wealth to obtain a home of their own as a rather lofty, but awesome goal. Not for the mass storage, not for all the pipe laying, but because not having to sleep on a lice-infested rag in the Gaj, and not having to share your space with a small crowd of others just to get by, is a pretty big status change for the average city dweller, I would imagine.

If someone kicks the door in and murders face (Definitely pro door-bashing!), or sneaks in behind someone overly drunk, shadows up to that point, then forces in, etc, I'm all for it. It just tends to make me feel very annoyed to see it happening otherwise.

[Veselka]

Yeah, i'd almost like to see other skills used in conjunction with stealth to provide more realistic ingress. Things like subdue, threaten, bash. Off the top of my head:

-Add the ability to bash someone in a direction, ala Carru Code. You have to be stronk, and good at bashing, but from a hidden place you could try and force them into their apartment, and they would be in a state of, well, being bashed. You enter with them, as a carru does when it bashes you with that script. If you miss, you either move past them into the next room, or you hit the floor yourself. Either way, it carries risk vs reward.

-Add the ability to subdue in a direction. This would be akin to holding the knife to someone's throat and moving them into another room. If you succeed the subdue, it simply puts the subdued state in the next room. You should again have to be skilled with subdue, and should get a bonus for doing it from a hidden place. If you fail, you are in a vulnerable state, and again, risk vs reward. This also comes with the idea that you are not armed, as you can't currently subdue someone if you yourself have your hands full. (Unfortunate, I would like it so someone can subdue with their weapon drawn/knife out, in the classic 'knife to the throat' sort of threat, that threaten doesn't /quite/ come off as.)

-Add the ability to 'threaten person <direction'. Same as above, you move with the person (on success) to the next room and enter the threaten state with its modifiers as well (bluff, etc) given after the direction. You have to be skilled in threaten, the person can't be actively watching you, and maybe it can only be done from a hidden state.

The above thoughts/examples would make the risk vs reward much more clear cut. It should be tricky for someone to force their way into an apartment, particularly 1 v 1 and you are shadowing them. The timing of the code would be a required sort of nuance, and I would say someone being shadowed should be 'slower' than the person shadowing them, but that would be gamed pretty quickly (someone would notice they are walking slower than they usually do, and assume they are being shadowed, etc.)

[JBlack]

Nenyuk could hire PCs to police some of their properties and encourage renters to return. Even then, might need some clear solutions to spot problem makers. If they aren't already, I'd make all hallways no-hide. No matter how agile the elves are, the barren halls don't allow for much hiding.

[Fredd]

Why don't we just get rid of stealth classes.

We can all play fighters with skinning , and or crafters.

[eska]

Why don't we just get rid of stealth classes.

We can all play fighters with skinning , and or crafters.

Instead it is best simply to remove PK from the game and all live in a happy environment.

Code Select Expand


north
> An empty apartment room.
> You see an NPC man here.
backstab man
> You begin moving silently toward your prey.
> A PC man walks in from the south.
> Whoa! Easy dude. You cannot kill this man, he is PC.


[Alesan]

Could we get back to constructive discussion? I was kind of enjoying reading this thread up until it started getting sarcastic.

[LindseyBalboa]

sarcasm is just as helpful as paragraphs on how to make stealth harder for stealth characters, who are one fail away from the entire game hunting them, at any given time.

[Tisiphone]

sarcasm is just as helpful as paragraphs on how to make stealth harder for stealth characters, who are one fail away from the entire game hunting them, at any given time.

Let's get rid of stealth. Then stealth characters won't fail at stealth and be PKed for being stealth characters.

[Patuk]

Raider is the most played class in the game. Scout comes in second. Miscreant is only third - and a good proportion of those, even, are nobles who play the game from their bedrooms nowadays anyway. This 'problem' is overblown, silly, not so bad in general, and terribly easily solved.

Talk to people in bars. Hand vennant 100 sid if you really want to bang that guy. Stop hoarding every single bleeding chalton hide and getting upset if it's stolen.

Or you could complain on the gdb that crime does in fact exist in third world cities (as it should) and that they are in fact dangerous (as it should be). People in these organisations, be they the Guild or the Valuren or just a rando independent fuck of a thief, have lower life spans than just-about anyone else, are hated by entire cities at large just for existing, and die younger than any fresh runner does. For once, get a damn grip, and try to consider what it's like before yelling about nerfing this and that again.

[fade]

We already have people avoiding the Gaj and templars.    I avoid apartments too, for exactly the same reasons.

Should there be safe rp stages?

I think the current state of affairs forces social and sexual players into the noble and GMH houses who can give them those safe rp places.   I do not think the game is served when a massive Oash cuddle pile only logs in for estate rp, or Bynners only leave the compound when riding as a full unit, for example.

+100000

Your PCs and Belongings should always be at high risk. Welcome to armageddon.

That being said, I think depending on the size of the apartment, some rooms should be no hide.

[Fredd]

Could we get back to constructive discussion? I was kind of enjoying reading this thread up until it started getting sarcastic.

My sarcasm is satire to point out the the absurdity here.

imma go ahead and guess someone's Aide got killed halfway through a romance plot and someone made another one of these posts.

We don't need more stealth nerfs. Hell there are already nerfs in the pipeline if the new class' go through. Huge loss of combat ability for thieves, and the loss of scan and hunt.

edit:
And you all complain no one goes to taverns anymore. Let's give people more incentive to sit in their apartments.

[Dresan]

Or you could complain on the gdb that crime does in fact exist in third world cities (as it should) and that they are in fact dangerous (as it should be). People in these organisations, be they the Guild or the Valuren or just a rando independent fuck of a thief, have lower life spans than just-about anyone else, are hated by entire cities at large just for existing, and die younger than any fresh runner does. For once, get a damn grip, and try to consider what it's like before yelling about nerfing this and that again.

Funny how this completely escalated down to theivery. As someone who routinely robbed people blind my suggestions would add some risk but it would hardly stop me. Heck, my character robbed an apartment clean as the couple were mudsexing in the next room.

My problem is that this game is often filled with bored people looking for a flimsy excuse to murder someone.  Lets be real here, the people who are getting murdered and targetted aren't burly fighter dwarves in clans. Its easier for them to kill social characters and crafter. It fucking sucks to see that unless you are playing a warrior or combat class with high priority endurance you basically are dead meat the moment someone is bored enough. Even if you aren't playing the combat character people you enjoy playing with are easy fucking prey to even 0 day dwarves the moment you log off.

I don't think its asking for a lot here, you bored  people will still get to murder these non-combat character right outside their apartments without any effort anyways. The only thing this change would do is add the small tiny risk of them running away or someone seeing you commit the murder.  If you are strong enough you can still just open the door to their place, sneak in and just bash.  This would be a quality of life buff to indie characters merchant classes who are more likely to need these places.

[Fredd]

Or you could complain on the gdb that crime does in fact exist in third world cities (as it should) and that they are in fact dangerous (as it should be). People in these organisations, be they the Guild or the Valuren or just a rando independent fuck of a thief, have lower life spans than just-about anyone else, are hated by entire cities at large just for existing, and die younger than any fresh runner does. For once, get a damn grip, and try to consider what it's like before yelling about nerfing this and that again.

Funny how this completely escalated down to theivery. As someone who routinely robbed people blind my suggestions would add some risk but it would hardly stop me. Heck, my character robbed an apartment clean as the couple were mudsexing in the next room.

My problem is that this game is often filled with bored people looking for a flimsy excuse to murder someone.  Lets be real here, the people who are getting murdered and targetted aren't burly fighter dwarves in clans. Its easier for them to kill social characters and crafter. It fucking sucks to see that unless you are playing a warrior or combat class with high priority endurance you basically are dead meat the moment someone is bored enough. Even if you aren't playing the combat character people you enjoy playing with are easy fucking prey to even 0 day dwarves the moment you log off.

I don't think its asking for a lot here, you bored  people will still get to murder these non-combat character right outside their apartments without any effort anyways. The only thing this change would do is add the small tiny risk of them running away or someone seeing you commit the murder.  If you are strong enough you can still just open the door to their place, sneak in and just bash. This would be a quality of life buff to indie characters merchant classes who are more likely to need these places.

It didn't escalate down to thievery. nerfing one will effect the other. stealth is stealth.

[Armaddict]

Or you could complain on the gdb that crime does in fact exist in third world cities (as it should) and that they are in fact dangerous (as it should be). People in these organisations, be they the Guild or the Valuren or just a rando independent fuck of a thief, have lower life spans than just-about anyone else, are hated by entire cities at large just for existing, and die younger than any fresh runner does. For once, get a damn grip, and try to consider what it's like before yelling about nerfing this and that again.

Funny how this completely escalated down to theivery. As someone who routinely robbed people blind my suggestions would add some risk but it would hardly stop me. Heck, my character robbed an apartment clean as the couple were mudsexing in the next room.

My problem is that this game is often filled with bored people looking for a flimsy excuse to murder someone.  Lets be real here, the people who are getting murdered and targetted aren't burly fighter dwarves in clans. Its easier for them to kill social characters and crafter. It fucking sucks to see that unless you are playing a warrior or combat class with high priority endurance you basically are dead meat the moment someone is bored enough. Even if you aren't playing the combat character people you enjoy playing with are easy fucking prey to even 0 day dwarves the moment you log off.

I don't think its asking for a lot here, you bored  people will still get to murder these non-combat character right outside their apartments without any effort anyways. The only thing this change would do is add the small tiny risk of them running away or someone seeing you commit the murder.  If you are strong enough you can still just open the door to their place, sneak in and just bash. This would be a quality of life buff to indie characters merchant classes who are more likely to need these places.

So...player risk is kind of my big jam to gripe about.  And I think you honestly have some sort of unconscious bias here, or there is a recent event clouding judgment or something.  People who depend on stealth skills are taking risks -constantly-.  It's almost unavoidable.  Even the act of trying to set up a locked-apartment kill in a way that is not 'follow me into my apartment' is inherently risky. 

'Bored people looking for any reason to kill' is a drastic underestimation of your fellow players.  Anyone who thinks 'Huh, well, I'm bored.  I could follow them there and kill them' is someone who blatantly engaged in even more risky mindsets.  These are moves where you're gambling your character's life that circumstances will be good to you, particularly since you are going into a place where -they- will have the key, and you will not (i.e. For you to escape the combat, they have to not be fighting you long enough to use pick again, while they get to unlock and run during combat).  That's the reason you see less 'buff dwarves' targeted for such things...you don't want to be the one looking Rorschach in the face as he growls 'I'm not locked in here with you, you're locked in here with me!'.  You will absolutely look for more favorable circumstances to go after someone you know is entirely capable of buffing you out.  This is not twink behavior, this is -rational- behavior.

If you honestly think that you can say people are slaying other people out of boredom, then simultaneously say that they're doing it to escape from risk, then you are again letting something either cloud judgment, or somehow out of touch with risk taking.  These things can and do cost murderers and burglars their lives.

Once again, I do believe that the 'shadowing through the door' issue is indeed an issue.  I don't think that's something that should be done reliably or comfortably.  But lying in wait in someone else's apartment seems entirely feasible and reasonable to me.

[Fredd]

Nerfing that will nerf following nobles into estates, which nerfs a LOT of potential espionage plots.

Stealth is stealth. it all works together.

[The Gruffalo]

Using the pick skill in an area where crime code is active should give you a chance to get crimflagged based on your skill level and the roll you make while picking the lock. Right now it's a risk-free smorgasboard compared to steal, as long as your target isn't home, due to NPC ai limitations and the binary nature of the stealth code. Staff isn't always able to animate NPCs to help you figure out whodunnit, especially if it happened when they weren't around and don't have access to the runlogs.

[Armaddict]

Nerfing that will nerf following nobles into estates

While I actually agree with your premise, I'd like to note that despite over a decade of arguing along the lines of this representing alternative ways into the estate because codedly, there is ONLY one way into an estate, I've been told numerous times that this is not a practice that is desired unless expressly permitted with a staff member watching.  Which is why I stopped doing noble espionage and consider clan estates the only somewhat reasonable 'close to perfect safety' in the game.

[Lotion]

Nerfing that will nerf following nobles into estates

While I actually agree with your premise, I'd like to note that despite over a decade of arguing along the lines of this representing alternative ways into the estate because codedly, there is ONLY one way into an estate, I've been told numerous times that this is not a practice that is desired unless expressly permitted with a staff member watching.  Which is why I stopped doing noble espionage and consider clan estates the only somewhat reasonable 'close to perfect safety' in the game.

wish all I want to shadow a VNPC into the <clan compound>

[Dresan]

And I think you honestly have some sort of unconscious bias here, or there is a recent event clouding judgment or something. 

'Bored people looking for any reason to kill' is a drastic underestimation of your fellow players. 

  But lying in wait in someone else's apartment seems entirely feasible and reasonable to me.

Oh its a conscious grip with this game and some of its players. Not even the shitty encounters with the staff over the years has bothered me as much as my the behavior of some people here.

To be absolutely clear, I think camping and waiting for a laborer to log in to sap them to death was lame as shit. And while it did not happen to my character, the person who did this sure suceeded in getting me and that person to stop playing this game. And to be clear, I've been murdered in apartments a few times and killed in all sorts of questionable ways but this one left an extra bad taste in my mouth, because that person chose the easy route of going after someone who was not the main source of conflict just because its was an easy kill. 

That happened a couple years ago now, time sure flies, but it still really makes one feel like investing anymore time in this game other than to discuss changes on the forums now and then is a complete and utter waste of time unfortunately.