Apartments deathtraps and stealth

[Dresan]

Its been said in other threads so I'll keep it short, apartments feel like deathtraps. The fact that people have pick is not really an issue, its the fact that being in an apartment without being a heavy combat class with endurance as your second priority is really dangerous.

As someone who loves stealth in the game, even I feel that apartments should be no_hide rooms.  You should be able to sneak in, but you shouldn't be able to hide. Additionally if you flee and have the key...then the door should auto open and let you run out just just with flee command.

It wouldn't only make apartments feel less like deathtraps but it would also deter random burglary since a burly dwarf could walk in and just bash the thief to bits, if the thief isn't careful.

[stoicreader]

Agreed!

[Brytta Léofa]

Could we make all apartment doors crash-outable? Probably with a Javascript on the inside?

Such that from inside you can ALWAYS just "open door" (regardless of whether you have a key), leaving the door in the unlocked state. In case, you know, your new tall friend already stole the key from you.

I'd support a successful flee roll automatically opening the door as well.

[Brytta Léofa]

I'm indifferent on apartments being no_hide. I do want people to use them more, though...

I'd like to see no_hide rooms notify the hider, because usually this seems to be set based on playability/sneaky-control rather than any particular logic.

> hide
You don't think you could hide here.

[stoicreader]

The pick skill just makes having apartments useless. Maybe only fences have the fine motor skills for the task.

[Armaddict]

The pick skill just makes having apartments useless. Maybe only fences have the fine motor skills for the task.

It does not make them useless, it makes storage of large amounts of valuables a risk.  You counter this risk to the best of your ability via better locks, how and when you can.  There is not supposed to be a 'safe space' for anything, with clans offering the biggest boon because of their round-the-clock security staff.  Being an independent requires you to arrange your own additional security.  The pick skill is a strange one because in it's use, it's often outright twinky on the surface, and can be easily judged for it; often, you have to get past a guard, or do things within 'look n' range of an npc.  However, that's because the setup of apartment security is in itself kind of twinky; there are no windows, no guard changes, no distractions, and to play every burglarly scene out to the max is both tedious and would require staff involvement on just about every one.

You should be able to sneak in, but you shouldn't be able to hide.

Opposite end for me.  Hiding in a room is generally doable.  Getting to a place ahead of time, lying in wait, is actually a good use of the 'trap', particularly since it's assumed in that scenario that the target will have their own key.  SNEAKING into a room, particularly while shadowing, is moving through a narrow doorway that is presumably easily noticed by the rest of the room.  A 1 room apartment with someone inside is pretty difficult to get into without being noticed if it's occupied.  Getting into an apartment with someone inside should require some incredible skill (i.e. not impossible, but large -sneak modifier), some cunning/trickery, or require that the apartment be larger than one room, where someone moves out of view of the door (unless we're going to stick with the windows thing, in which case the entire topic is irrelevant and we continue treating the pick skill and stealth in apartments as 'workarounds' to code limitation).

I still want to see indoor locks.  Bars across the door that allow for even a picked door to be sealed shut unless brute force is used (which can bring in crimflags due to noise; str-based check not required, there can be levers and such, or other means, point being this stage is not stealthy).  This means if you actually log out consistently in your apartment, it's relatively safe while offline.  Not completely, but relatively.  It becomes vulnerable while you are -online- and -elsewhere-, which makes the potential burglar actually scout apartments and their owners, and risk discovery with each and every theft, incentivizing speed and stealth over 'grab everything that I can and bog myself down because no one will see this anyway'.

[Patuk]

I kind of like that apartments aren't that safe of a haven. Both cities feel quiet to me; things are better if they happen in public, rather than in private. I don't really see that big of an issue here and I do think the problem is way overblown.

[eska]

Its been said in other threads so I'll keep it short, apartments feel like deathtraps.

Welcome to Zalanthas!
I think everything is fine with how the apartments work. They shouldn't be a safe haven in this harsh environment where every single person is ready to corrupt, betray or murder you.

[stoicreader]

I kind of like that apartments aren't that safe of a haven. Both cities feel quiet to me; things are better if they happen in public, rather than in private. I don't really see that big of an issue here and I do think the problem is way overblown.

They are just as empty. The bar being empty had nothing to do with apartments.

One way you can check if to get a character with city hunt and check he entrance to every apartment complex and compare the quantity of results by hunt around there bars and the gates.

[Patuk]

I know, and it is tragic. Making apartments safer sees that issue get even worse.

[stoicreader]

I know, and it is tragic. Making apartments safer sees that issue get even worse.

I think right now, the most active part of the game is in the table lands. Not to get into a tangent.

The apartment fix is a diversion from retaining players. Bigger issues should be focused on first.

[Patuk]

I know, and it is tragic. Making apartments safer sees that issue get even worse.

I think right now, the most active part of the game is in the table lands. Not to get into a tangent.

The apartment fix is a diversion from retaining players. Bigger issues should be focused on first.

I don't think this is a good idea, let alone a bigger issue, or something that should be done at all. Your apartment isn't supposed to be that safe, and I don't much care for them to become that way.

[Fredd]

if you flee and have the key...then the door should auto open and let you run out just just with flee command.

It wouldn't only make apartments feel less like deathtraps but it would also deter random burglary since a burly dwarf could walk in and just bash the thief to bits, if the thief isn't careful.

This part I completely agree with.

But you SHOULD be able to hide in apartments.

We really don't need to nerf espionage, we need to nerf absolutely ass brained murders. We need more stealth, but ways to escape being in  a room with a locked door, IE.

killing someone in a city should take a bit of planning, a bit of following and learning a routine. But the answer isn't to make it harder for the people who get the info people need for politics. it's to put things in place to make people roleplay the killing out more.

[Armaddict]

killing someone in a city should take a bit of planning, a bit of following and learning a routine. But the answer isn't to make it harder for the people who get the info people need for politics. it's to put things in place to make people roleplay the killing out more.

This is a derail, but these statements honestly make me perplexed.  Not out of lack of understanding the feeling, but what people are actually expecting out of murder scenes.  Do you want people to draw it out, giving a chance for the way to be used?  You can already unlock the door and open it and flee during combat.  Do you want staff to retcon consequences of slowing their roll, so that people are more comfortable giving time before initiating combat?  Do you want people to treat these combat scenes like sparring matches, which are what they are precisely because you feel safe that you won't die, so you don't mind typing out a long emote because if you do get hit hard, the opponent has mercy on and will likely disengage for you?  Do you want every murder scene to stop being brutal and short, and have antagonists or hired killers take the time to explain what's going on, so that they can be the 'stupid villain' that we all make fun of in movies?

What actual roleplay do you want to 'make' them do during murder scenes that is more satisfying than the action itself?  This is one of those places where people say people aren't roleplaying, but the action itself -is- the roleplay.  It is not highly interactive, it's usually quite urgent and filled with actions and reactions.  Do you want combat slowed down altogether so that it's drawn out as long as possible, despite just having the same result, and the same element of trying to react as best and quickly as possible but just with more delays?  What do you mean by 'make them roleplay' it?

[betweenford]

I feel as though apartment locks should be deadbolts from the inside, able to be unlocked without a key on the inside. Perhaps barred or bolted with a separate command from the inside.

Basically so you can pick a lock but if the door is barred from the inside you can't open it. If you're inside and someone is killing you, you should be able to get out and unlock/unbar (without a key) the door from the inside but it should incur attacks of opportunity.

[Tisiphone]

Funnily enough, in real life being stuck in an apartment with a homicidal maniac set on killing you and stronger than you is also a death-trap.

[Brytta Léofa]

Just out of curiosity, are these places you've been to just as dangerous on the street as in a closed off apartment?

No, they're not, generally speaking. Of course it depends on where you are, who you're with, etc. etc. etc. But there are a lot of folks who would take the opportunity of leading you down an alley/to a whorehouse/somewhere semi-private as an opportunity for mischief when they're perfectly "friendly" in public.

And yes, that's doing some violence to the truth, because we're not considering things like gangs, territories, loose tribal affiliations, boroughs, etc.

I don't think people need to "stop" having their opinions, just as you are entitled to have both opinions/no opinion.

OK, cool. Let me rephrase it: when you (general you, not you Reiloth) voice the opinion that people not wanting to go into apartments strikes you as 'meta' or 'unrealistic' or whatever, it strikes me that you have very little experience with real-life analogues.

[LindseyBalboa]

Funnily enough, in real life being stuck in an apartment with a homicidal maniac set on killing you and stronger than you is also a death-trap.

was gonna post exactly this but was too lazy. also y'all not keeping in mind if someone can break into your apartment, relock it, hide, and try to kill you, that you can just walk someone in and try to kill them even more easily. just kill people first.

[LindseyBalboa]

also the most apartments i have ever seen rented out in the past few years in allanak coincided with a really big high in terms of criminal clans in the rinth - the valuren had just been introduced. i had trouble finding an empty apartment it felt like. brings me to my point:

safer apartments come with active criminal guilds. criminal guilds typically enforce "steal a few items at most" rules and take bribes to protect apartments from themselves and other criminal groups.

[Dresan]

Given how strong combat character get compared to non-combat merchant classes I've always felt the balance is skewed. When you play these merchant classes your time and effort is often completely at the mercy of very bored people.

I sincerely feel that even making some apartment rooms no_hide is not enough in some cases to illustrate the power of wealth.


In RL there are security companies that rich people can hire to ensure they are safe. In the game thought its not possible to have players guarding you all the time, and its not possible to hire NPC guards. Perhaps instead someone with enough money should be able to make their apartment no hide, by paying for a guard to watch their place. Or we implement expensive npc guards similar to what nobles have for relatively wealthy NPC. The guards might not be that well trained like noble guards and only work in the city but when all it takes is a few hits from from a 0 day dwarf to kill you, anything is better than nothing.

[Supified]

Personally I think less the problem is apartments and hide rather hide and stealth in general.  It's far to binary.  Either you are completely invisible or you are not.  Proximity and all sorts of other factors are entirely lost and getting in when someone is being shadowed too easy.  Stealth needs an overhaul.  Any changes made to apartments is a band aid.

The second issue is doors are impassible barriers.  This goes double for curtains.  How many people have been killed by a closed curtain?  I'm certain it's happened, it's ridiculous, these barriers should not be nearly as effective means of preventing escape as they are. Once again, we're talking band aid solutions for code limitations. 

I rather like the idea of barriers being made into softer barriers.  Sounds like a lot of code work for an old diku mud, but doors and stuff easier and harder to get through depending on what they're made of.  Maybe a curtain doesn't stop movement at all if you use a ! after your moving indicating you mean to go through.  Maybe a door can be charged through depending on the material and craftsmanship.

That plus a stealth overhaul and we'd not have this problem anymore.

[najdorf]

it motivates players to join clans, or to come together making their own warehouses / start clans
it is good from that perspective, isn't?

[mattrious]

Apartments are deathtraps and that's the way it should be. Here are some options to consider if you do not want to die inside an apartment:

A. Hire a mercenary or guard to protect your apartment.
B. Bribe a criminal organization to put your apartment and your neck on the do-not-touch list.
C. Don't rent an apartment.
D. Buy a tent and move out into the wastes.

Seriously, this topic along with stealth comes up from time-to-time and there are plenty of ways to protect yourself and the goods you store in your apartment. Pretty much all apartment buildings are equipped with anti-stealth type features. 

[flurry]

Balconies should be a viable (if dangerous) escape route, for apartments that have them.

[Halcyon]

We already have people avoiding the Gaj and templars.    I avoid apartments too, for exactly the same reasons.

Should there be safe rp stages?

I think the current state of affairs forces social and sexual players into the noble and GMH houses who can give them those safe rp places.   I do not think the game is served when a massive Oash cuddle pile only logs in for estate rp, or Bynners only leave the compound when riding as a full unit, for example.