Light, darkness, visibility, hiding

[Brytta Léofa]

(1) You should be able to see into adjacent lighted rooms, regardless of whether the room you're in is dark.

It's really crazy that you can't see into a lighted room from a dark room. And lighting up a torch in the wilderness at night should just be a huge invitation for, well, interaction.

(2) Having an active light source should break hide and invisibility, at least in dark rooms.

If it's possible to sneak around with a torch and stay hidden, that's really crazy.
Likewise, a light source should be an instant giveaway for invisible people.


These would change some factors in gameplay (hiding in the dark becomes a great ambush tactic, surprise surprise), but I don't think it's anything game-breaking.

[Delirium]

Agreed, with caveats. If you're moving through a dimly lit area and have a light source then you should be fine, since our light code is so binary at the moment -- nuance with dim light sources and bright light sources would be great, but we don't have it -- but if you're in pitch darkness, a light source should make it impossible or incur huge negatives.

I'm okay with invisibility remaining, even with a light source. It's magick. Imagine that the light is being thrown about in all sorts of confusing ways and you can't tell exactly where it's coming from, because magick. Plus, invisibility is less powerful than hide, so having the "bonus" of being able to use light feels like a fair trade-off...

... especially since if you're going into a dark room, invisible, carrying a light source, you've just given yourself away.

If a player is abusing the lack of response from intelligent NPCs then that'd be a "deal with that person on a case by case basis since they might not even have thought of it that way", not a blanket code debuff.

(and I say all this as a person who is not a huge fan of the proliferation of magick in game right now)

[Patuk]

The storm code is ludicrously punishing right now. If you can't hide with a light out, you can't really do crime at all a vast majority of the time at night. Why storms whip up and then never cease, I don't know, but do consider the knock-on effects of what you're proposing here.

[Delirium]

Storms were specifically removed from cities a long time ago and I'm not sure why they were put back in.

The IC rationale was loose -- "big tall walls, magick god-king" and it didn't matter because it was for playability's sake.

[Patuk]

Well, I agree. And now we have them, and going out at night in Allanak might as well be a sandy mosh pit, and I'd like for the dark to be a place that's risky moreso than completely reliant on autowalking.

[Brytta Léofa]

I agree we should look at storm levels inside cities, but I do think hiding in the dark with a torch is nuts.

Agree that invis should be exempt unless much greater nuance is added to the lighting code. (Which would be a cool project of course.)

Anybody have concerns about the first point: seeing into lighted rooms from dark rooms?

[Delirium]

Agree that hiding/sneaking with a light source is silly. Unless we introduce less binary lighting code.

Hiding in the dark and watching lighted rooms should 100% be a thing. That it isn't seems like a quirk of how the darkness code works (i.e., if dark, can't see) rather than an intended affect, because it's zero points realistic.

[mansa]

Anybody have concerns about the first point: seeing into lighted rooms from dark rooms?

ex:

Current light level in room - 0
Current light level in room 1 west - 0
Current light level in room 1 west 1 north - 0
Current light level in room 1 west 1 west - 0
Current light level in room 1 west 1 south - 0
Current light level in room 1 west 1 east - 0
Current light level in room 1 west 1 up - 0
Current light level in room 1 west 1 down - 10

Does it need to check all connected rooms to see if all connected rooms are 'lit' in order to make that room "5" or something?

[Brytta Léofa]

Does it need to check all connected rooms to see if all connected rooms are 'lit' in order to make that room "5" or something?

Not quite sure where you're going with that. I'm not proposing partial light levels or anything, just:

I'm in a completely dark room. If the room to the east is lit, I want to "look east" and see the normal directional look output. If I'm in a tent/wagon/building that's dark, I want to "look out" and see the normal look output if the out room is lit.

Currently you see nothing in these cases unless you light up your current room.

Obviously this is a little more complex with directional look but I'm on a phone so left as an exercise.

[Lotion]

I think this is an "engine problem". Currently if you are in a clear room but the room south of you has a blinding sandstorm you can see three rooms south into the sandstorm and I'd imagine the same code handles seeing far away in darkness

[Brytta Léofa]

I think this is an "engine problem". Currently if you are in a clear room but the room south of you has a blinding sandstorm you can see three rooms south into the sandstorm and I'd imagine the same code handles seeing far away in darkness

Directional look (vs "look out") is the more complex thing here because it involves up to three rooms, aaand it's definitely broken in the way you just described.

But I suspect that what I'm asking for is a simpler fix. Because look [out|<direction>|<tent/building/wagon>] does work, for some value of work, when your current room is lighted. So there's probably just an is-current-room-dark check that could be moved/removed/duplicated-some-places-but-not-all.

[Veselka]

(1) You should be able to see into adjacent lighted rooms, regardless of whether the room you're in is dark.

It's really crazy that you can't see into a lighted room from a dark room. And lighting up a torch in the wilderness at night should just be a huge invitation for, well, interaction.

(2) Having an active light source should break hide and invisibility, at least in dark rooms.

If it's possible to sneak around with a torch and stay hidden, that's really crazy.
Likewise, a light source should be an instant giveaway for invisible people.


These would change some factors in gameplay (hiding in the dark becomes a great ambush tactic, surprise surprise), but I don't think it's anything game-breaking.

Agreed with both points.

If you are in the dark, you should absolutely be able to see into a room that has a light source. I would take a step further and even have it automatically give you a watched 'A yellow light fills the area to the east, Soandso arrives from the south'.

Honestly I think it would be more realistic/cool if you could see campfires and torches from a far greater distance. Even like 10 rooms away, on a clearish night that has no moons. 'Incredibly far to the south, you notice a campfire flickering.' or 'Incredibly far to the south, you notice a <yellow/green/etc> light source flare up.'

You could make it so if you don't have high direction sense, if you enter a room from darkness into light, you get an echo of 'Your eyes adjust to the light', making it so you can't take an action immediately.

I also think that if you are sneaking/hiding with a light source, it should diminish your possibility of sneaking/hiding. I can't think of too many realistic scenarios where someone can sneakily move down a street with a torch in pitch blackness, or in the wilderness for that matter.

[Brytta Léofa]

... I would take a step further and even have it automatically give you a watched 'A yellow light fills the area to the east, Soandso arrives from the south'.

Honestly I think it would be more realistic/cool if you could see campfires and torches from a far greater distance. Even like 10 rooms away, on a clearish night that has no moons. 'Incredibly far to the south, you notice a campfire flickering.' or 'Incredibly far to the south, you notice a <yellow/green/etc> light source flare up.'

You could make it so if you don't have high direction sense, if you enter a room from darkness into light, you get an echo of 'Your eyes adjust to the light', making it so you can't take an action immediately.

Love these.

[LindseyBalboa]

+1.

Also campfires should just be no ingredients to make. I'm never in a situation where I need fire to survive, but often in situations where a fire would be good for RP if it were no hassle. Ease of creation could be offset by being able to see the fire from rooms away.