Playability and Desert Storms

[Dresan]

I think it would also make obvious the advantages of traveling in a wagon or argosy.

I wish we could have NPC wagons and arogsy's you could pay for to travelling to luirs, redstorm and city states on a scheduled basis.

It could still be a little on the expensive side to allow players to be able to cut a better deal too.

[Tisiphone]

I think it'd be really cool to have coded, automated wagon trips between various settlements - mostly Allanak <-> Luir's & Tuluk <-> Luir's - that PCs could hitch a ride with by paying for a ticket. They'd come with some NPC guards who focus on guarding the wagon. Then such a script would also involve the occasional spawning of raider groups of various sorts, possibly differing between which wagon and which organization is caravanning. Even better if they could pay for PC guards somehow.

That's hugely pie in the sky, but I think it's a pretty neat idea.

[Brytta Léofa]

Autowagons would be hugely lovely and generate a lot of roleplay. If they're expensive enough, it doesn't destroy the sense of distance between settlements; yet it makes it possible for e.g. off-peaker crafters to actually get where they need to go.

[X-D]

long as they are raidable, go for it.

[Iiyola]

I think it'd be really cool to have coded, automated wagon trips between various settlements - mostly Allanak <-> Luir's & Tuluk <-> Luir's - that PCs could hitch a ride with by paying for a ticket. They'd come with some NPC guards who focus on guarding the wagon. Then such a script would also involve the occasional spawning of raider groups of various sorts, possibly differing between which wagon and which organization is caravanning. Even better if they could pay for PC guards somehow.

That's hugely pie in the sky, but I think it's a pretty neat idea.

This.

[Veselka]

I think it'd be really cool to have coded, automated wagon trips between various settlements - mostly Allanak <-> Luir's & Tuluk <-> Luir's - that PCs could hitch a ride with by paying for a ticket. They'd come with some NPC guards who focus on guarding the wagon. Then such a script would also involve the occasional spawning of raider groups of various sorts, possibly differing between which wagon and which organization is caravanning. Even better if they could pay for PC guards somehow.

That's hugely pie in the sky, but I think it's a pretty neat idea.

I would automate it (in pie and the sky) like so:

-Make it so an NPC crier walks past the taverns shouting out schedules of the next departures the day before. "Caravan leaving for Luirs from the Allanak Wagonyard tomorrow at dawn! Get your tickets!"

-Make the times of departures 2-3 times a RL Day, but varying days. This is so they aren't SO predictable that they can be raided every single time. Also, make them take different routes so they aren't predictable in that way as well.

-Allow anyone in the T'zai Byn (Trooper+) to sign on as a caravan guard. They get nominal pay (say 250 coins) per leg of the trip. Cap the amount that can sign on at 2 or 3, so you don't have entire units dogpiling on a caravan for paydays.

-Provide 2 NPC guards inside the wagon for 'Coach'. This is the least defended area, where most commoners can pay to travel between locations. NPC guards don't assist you if you are attacked by someone else, they just assist other guards that are attacked, and try to prevent people/raiders/coach travelers from traveling further into the wagon.

-Provide 2 more NPC guards past an unlocked but guarded door. This is slightly more posh, and the 'business class', where GMH can afford to have a bit of separation from the rabble and a drink cart. They also have a slight removal from the dangers of coach, both from raiders and criminal elements traveling on the wagon.

-Each wagon should have a 'lockbox' item that can be stolen by raiders. Some will be locked, some are empty, some have coin. The lockbox would be in with the pilot.

-Allow the wagon to be stolen by raiders, if they have the pilot capability or someone among them who can pilot.

----

Coach: 100 coins between locations (Allanak to Luirs, Luirs to Tuluk, etc).
Business: 500 coins between locations

Caravan Guard: 250 coins per leg of the trip.

----

By having the variability in the schedule, Raiders will have to have people inside the city who can help tell them the schedule. Schedules might also be delayed or pushed back an hour or two, notified through the crier.

It would allow commoners to more safely move between the city states and Luirs, but it would be a slow moving caravan, and potentially less protected than with a full Byn Escort, or the ability to go 'off track' on your own with a guide. It's a moving target as well.

It would allow GMH inparticular to move between locations without it being a HUGE CLUSTERFUCK every time they need to schedule with the Byn, themselves, and so on. If they need to catch a ride to Luirs, they can.

It would give the Byn some automatic contracts to complete, particularly off-peak and those who aren't around when others are as much. If there's a consistent off-peak caravan, it gives them steady work and income.

It would give Raiders automated raids to complete, if they can get the intel in time and have enough people to go for it. The lockboxes and wagons would be lucrative rewards for the risk. Hell, have a 'wagon buyer' criminal NPC in Red Storm who pays like 5000 coins for the wagon 'on the hush-hush' and sells it back to the caravan people. Circle of life.

It also automates conflict in a way -- PCs on the Wagon, PCs guarding the wagon, and PCs who might raid the wagon, 2-3 times a RL day.

[Halcyon]

I would automate it (in pie and the sky) like so:

-Make it so an NPC crier walks past the taverns shouting out schedules of the next departures the day before. "Caravan leaving for Luirs from the Allanak Wagonyard tomorrow at dawn! Get your tickets!"

-Make the times of departures 2-3 times a RL Day, but varying days. This is so they aren't SO predictable that they can be raided every single time. Also, make them take different routes so they aren't predictable in that way as well.

-snip-

I love the idea, but it logically fails if the wagon or even dray cart can be lost.   The GMHs couldnt make any money if they lost even one in ten.

[Dresan]

I think these would be huge armoured argosies. Not worth the effort to take down for multiple reasons, not to mention you don't want to kill the goose that laid the golden egg.

However, breaking them down to three or so compartments does sound good. Loading area, commoner area, and first class area, each more expensive than the other. The drivers area would be fully secured(unaccessable). The first compartment being the loading area that you can bring mounts. From there you would required to break down the door to get to the other deeper more challenging compartments. Every area would have lockboxes with random stuff, along with the guards stuff.

Since the argosy would continue along the way, the key here is time. Do the raiders have enough time to break down the next door before the place gets to its destination leading them to death or do they escape earlier. Another thing would be when an argosy gets attacked a call would be made to the nearest civilized area. The raiders might be unlucky and encounter a group of militia or some other force answering the call of the distressed argosy somewhere in between its travels. There is always the possibility of some angry secret mage, or long-lived fighter waiting deeper inside.  You can hide in most wagons after all.

Either way its a real cool pie in the sky idea.

[Brytta Léofa]

I'd go the other way for the auto-wagons: use open carts. Much less security, you can get arrowed, you're really just buying storm immunity and a couple of guards who will swat raptors. Good payoff for raiders who hit one, but not a world-ending event. Heck, players with carts could join up and tag along.

[X-D]

You know, the Byn tends to be pretty reliable to storm and Luirs right?

[Dresan]

You know, the Byn tends to be pretty reliable to storm and Luirs right?

I guess it depends what you mean by reliable.

With my merchant and more recently with other character who could not travel easily, I found that asking random strangers was far more convinient and more easily arranged than reaching out to the byn.  The byn gets a lot of attention from a lot of sponsored roles as a clan after all.

[Brokkr]

There may be cultural differences at play.  Twenty years ago, waiting two RL weeks to get an escort to go from one city to the other was just fine.  Now I see some folks that want this to happen today or the next 1-2 days and start get antsy over anything long that that.

Some of us still look at the two weeks and think that is just fine, though.

[Is Friday]

Reducing the length of storms but causing them to be more deadly by trapping people (potentially) with dangerous creatures (because you have difficulty traveling) would be a massive uptick in fun. Right now you just stop playing in sandstorms, more or less. That's not really fun imo - especially since they last all RL day.

[Greve]

There may be cultural differences at play.  Twenty years ago, waiting two RL weeks to get an escort to go from one city to the other was just fine.  Now I see some folks that want this to happen today or the next 1-2 days and start get antsy over anything long that that.

Some of us still look at the two weeks and think that is just fine, though.

I don't think it's a matter of cultural differences. It's more the fact that nowadays, if you're stuck in Red Storm, you're alone 98% of the time and there's nothing to do. That has the dual effect of making it really boring and making it very unlikely that you'll find anybody who can escort you out of the region. If you go down there to pick up some flour or whatever, and then a max-level storm kicks up just then and turns out to last until the next reboot, it's not exactly unreasonable to feel disillusioned. The player density is too low to expect anyone to appreciate being stuck in one of the game's most isolated settlements for potentially RL days at a time.

I don't know enough about desert environs to say how realistic it is for a horrendous sandstorm to last for days on end, nor is Zalanthas comparable to any place on Earth, but I think it's fair to suggest that something be put in place where anytime a max-level sandstorm has lasted for, say, two full in-game days, it automatically "changes directions" and gives a short window of time where visibility is good enough to hurry through even if you're not a grizzled desert ranger with Rayban sunslits. We can call it Whira's Potty-Break.

Another halfway solution is to make it so that losing direction due to poor visibility can never cause you to move in the complete opposite direction of where you intended. If you can't see shit and try to move north, it's a little dumb when the code causes you to do a 180° and go south instead. East and west, sure. That way, you can risk it for the biscuit and at least feel confident that you won't end up wading into the silt sea. There are real-world examples of how people belonging to cultures without compasses can still have an instinctual sense of the cardinal directions, even to the point where some tribal cultures have no concept of left and right, just N/E/S/W.

Sandstorms are integral to the Armageddon experience, but I feel that some concessions can be made for the sake of playability. Having personally been stuck in Red Storm for upwards of 3-4 RL days at a time, I can only say that all it made me do was log in for five minutes every few hours to see if the storm had let up, and if not, I log right back out because there's nobody around anyway.

[mansa]

...

Another halfway solution is to make it so that losing direction due to poor visibility can never cause you to move in the complete opposite direction of where you intended. If you can't see shit and try to move north, it's a little dumb when the code causes you to do a 180° and go south instead. East and west, sure. That way, you can risk it for the biscuit and at least feel confident that you won't end up wading into the silt sea. There are real-world examples of how people belonging to cultures without compasses can still have an instinctual sense of the cardinal directions, even to the point where some tribal cultures have no concept of left and right, just N/E/S/W.

After all, how else do Zalanthans even know which direction anything is? Who ever told them which way south is?

I like that code change suggestion.

[Greve]

On that note, let's also make it so you can't accidentally climb up. Unless that's already been done recently.

[Brokkr]

I don't think it's a matter of cultural differences. It's more the fact that nowadays, if you're stuck in Red Storm, you're alone 98% of the time and there's nothing to do.

If you were in Red Storm 20 years ago, there would have been no one around.

When I say cultural difference, it is a mindset difference.  How long will you be patient for stuff to happen?  1-2 days?  Or 1-2 weeks?  How long do you wait to coordinate things with other players?  20 years ago things were hopping.  23-25 years ago, there were periods where 5-10 players except for peak was the norm.  That creates a different pacing and a different set of expectations.  As did the lack of MMORPGs and the culture and expectations that came with them.

Lots of the stuff you are talking about went back that far when designed.  It has was put in in support of a different set of expectations for pacing.  Bringing up Red Storm is sort of a non-starter as well.  It is designed to be difficult.  I get that some people want the indie lifestyle RS can support to be easier.  I would look for things beyond RS if that is what is driving the repeated references to RS.

[Dresan]

stuff

Remember when the most popular classes used to be rangers and they could train really well on silt lizards. Or even before that when halflings used to enter the taverns holding metal sword.

A lot sure has changed in the game. Some staff policy changes for  'rape-play' and the use of the word 'necker' were prehaps also based on cultural differences over time.

A lot the changes have been for the good since I don't care how much someone preaches about patience, I rather not go back to the days of saturday downtime. I also want to believe that a number of threads have already mentioned that time has become more valuable for people as we've gotten older.

That said I would not call being forced to select a narrow range of classes so that your time does not get wasted, nor mechanics that allow you to do nothing but leave the area just to see as difficult, boring or uncreative in comparison to so much this game has to offer perhaps, but not difficult. Especially not difficult when wilderness classes are so strong and magick subclasses are a thing.

Redstorm just happens to be an example of the most extreme of some of these mechanics. Its funny most of my travels as a merchant were from luirs to allanak and need for speed was because templars can be fairly impatient. Still, I am not sure why redstorm would be a non-starter for a conversation, what the fear there? That it'll be made too 'easy', and people will find it more enjoyable to just play in redstorm as indies, disregarding the cities and clans that the staff have to put more effort to make work?

[Brokkr]

If you remember those things, then you remember why global storms were put in place, replacing zone and room flag dependent ones.

[Riev]

I just wanted to pop in and say "because thats is how it was done before" isn't a good justification for why its done the same way now.

I don't know the demographics in this game, but many of us do not have 2 weeks to wait for an escort to a place, only to wait another week to find the person we need to with the same playtimes as us, to exchange information and a single item, only to wait 2 weeks to go back. And for all of that to cost 2000 coins.

I feel like "

Some of us

may be a little out of touch with the experiences of how to play 20 years later than your heyday.

[Armaddict]

I feel like "
Quote from: Brokkr on Today at 11:33:21 AM
Some of us
may be a little out of touch with the experiences of how to play 20 years later than your heyday.

Well, I mean.  It's saying some, not all.  I certainly don't expect that because I log in, everything should be lined up for everything to go as I foresee it.  I think that's honestly a really stupid expectation, considering the theme of the game, but that's why I was trying to get people to explain other ways than 'how we've always done it', but to little avail.  We had a couple people post good suggestions, then everything else was essentially 'Just make it easier' or 'I don't want there to be much risk'.  Even the good ideas devolved into 'that's too risky'.

So wait 14 days?  Maybe on the extreme end.  Expect hardship and the need to actually -make- things happen?  Yeah, I think that's the ticket.  No one should be logging into a game called Armageddon, now or 20 years ago, and just expect things to fall in their lap.  That wasn't the game design then, and it certainly doesn't seem to be the game design now, and maybe when invited to talk about alternative ways to implement that game design, you can do more than say 'It's all changed, get with the times!' as if all premises need to change.

[Brokkr]

I just wanted to pop in and say "because thats is how it was done before" isn't a good justification for why its done the same way now.

I don't know the demographics in this game, but many of us do not have 2 weeks to wait for an escort to a place, only to wait another week to find the person we need to with the same playtimes as us, to exchange information and a single item, only to wait 2 weeks to go back. And for all of that to cost 2000 coins.

I feel like "

Some of us

may be a little out of touch with the experiences of how to play 20 years later than your heyday.

I think its a pain in the ass, so I'm not really in the "some of us".  I expect people to step outside of their own perspective when making these kinds of arguments, just like my stance in some of my posting may not always reflect my own position.  In this case, the bar for "make it easier" is really high.  Which means good, well rounded arguments that covers a range of play styles and likes/dislikes about difficulty levels.  Why means making the argument from more that just your own perspective.

[X-D]

I am going to just be with Brokkr on this.

[Dresan]

Its only difficult to play in redstorm or most places really if you play one of the light or heavy merchant classes. 

If you don't have direction sense, its harder to get to redstorm,  but getting out to play outside of the area is still somewhat doable though annoying. As an example my elven infiltrator and elven miscreant each with direction sense, and wilderness stealth were vastly richer, more feared, respected and had a very easy time working out of redstorm than my old merchant ever did. They were pretty safe and comfortable in their apartments too. It would be be just as easy if I were playing a human, and I would be able to pretty much go anywhere, with storms continuing to just be an annoyance rather than anything challenging.

Thus I really find it amusing that mechanics around redstorm are considered 'difficult' rather than boring, especially since without the storms I might need to deal with raiders more often. However, the staff have already mentioned they are considering less storms but more severity which addresses the original concerns and in the new proposed classes thread they are considering adding low level direction sense to everyone. That will help address a lot and i am looking forward to seeing those changes. 

The idea of the argosy would really mostly help light, heavy merchant classes, and other non-combat roles by allowing them to make more use of their money to buy convinience and saftey. No where near as much as picking surivival, light and heavy combat classes gets as they get older though. Heck my elven miscreant was practically the best freaking strongest indie merchant i ever played, with peraine blowdarts and weapon because why the hell not.

However, thats a long running theme in this game, one I have never fully understood. Why crafting classes and players choosing non-combat roles seem to be the ones to have the most 'difficulty' and face the most 'challenges', whether they are trying to travel, walk the street or even enter their apartments.   

But that is really derailing the thread, again looking forward to seeing changes to storm frequency and maybe see low level direction sense for everyone.

[Taahir]

The only thing that really bugs me is that you can try to move 'down' in a storm, even if there is no exit that way. Can we just limit stumbling to NESW directions?