Playability and Desert Storms

[mansa]

Desert Storms are part of the identity of ArmageddonMUD, but I think we can tweak it a little bit to allow for better playability.

In my head, there should be less "you lose your way" and more "it costs more movement points to move".    Forcing you to rest and get movement points is a much better experience than forcing you to travel in circles.

If there is a metric on "storm ferocity", and it was between 0 and 100, where 0 is a clear day and 100 is the worst possible storm in existence...

* I think "you try to move and lose your way" should only happen at 80 and higher.
* If you try to move through the storm at 70 and higher it should cost "2" more movement points per room.
* If you try to move through the storm at 50 to 69, it should cost "1" more movement point per room.

I think Storm Ferocity should have a harder roll to get 'increased storm' when you go from 85 to 90, and again even hard from 90 to 100.
It should be 1 in 3 to get 'increased storm' from 85 to 90, and '1 in 4' to get from 90 to 100.

I think Storm Ferocity checks should be every 10 minutes, to decide whether to get worse or better.


What do you think?

[Brokkr]

Weather has two components.  Wind speed and Weather (how sandy).

[mansa]

Weather has two components.  Wind speed and Weather (how sandy).

Cool.   I didn't know that.

I think High Wind should increase movement points spent.   If High Wind was a factor between 1 and 100, if you get 60-80 it should cost 1 movement points extra, and 80-100 should cost 2 movement points extra.
I think it should be hard to increase the windspeed above 85, with a 1 in 3 chance to increase.   And I think it should be harder to increase the windspeed above 90, with a 1 in 4 chance.

If "How Clear / Sandy" weather stat was between 1 and 100, if you get above 80 it should give you "you get lost and can't find your way".
I think it should be hard to increase the "weather" above 85, with a 1 in 3 chance to increase.   I think it should be even harder to increase the "weather" above 90, with a 1 in 4 chance.


If the weather and the high wind speeds reach 150 (as you add them together), it should also give you the "You get lost and can't find your way."

If the weather and the high wind speeds reach 170 (as you add them together), it should do 2 hitpoints of damage to move through the storm.

[Gentleboy]

I like how things are currently.

[lostinspace]

I like how things are currently.

Same

[Brytta Léofa]

I don't know if the status quo is reasonably good for newbies or not, but I personally like that there are game regions where weather is a controlling consideration.

[Delirium]

I don't know if this is how we fix it, but I do know that being stuck in Red Storm for days on end is horrendously boring, and closing Luirs as a base of play means it's one of your only non-city options, which limits concepts.. it's a big circle of ripple effect suckage that the place with the worst storms is right next to the instant death trap. Then death trap chasms were introduced to the Red Desert and that's not fun either, but at least you can leave Luir's no matter how bad the storm is in the surrounding areas nearby.

[Gentleboy]

I don't know if this is how we fix it, but I do know that being stuck in Red Storm for days on end is horrendously boring, and closing Luirs as a base of play means it's one of your only non-city options, which limits concepts.. it's a big circle of ripple effect suckage that the place with the worst storms is right next to the instant death trap. Then death trap chasms were introduced to the Red Desert and that's not fun either, but at least you can leave Luir's no matter how bad the storm is in the surrounding areas nearby.

This is a great point! But, Red Storm is also next to the Silt Sea, and that makes the air hard to breathe. Instead of sandstorms.. maybe silt fog? Makes you take movement points or health points for going through it and can only see 1-2 tiles ahead? I love to silt sift, and it would suck when I could only do that for like 20 minutes out of the 5 hours I played, the rest being me checking the weather.

[Armaddict]

I'm on kind of the opposite end of this spectrum.  I believe sandstorms are simply too common.  I'd rather have them harsher, i.e. WHY ARE YOU TRAVELING THROUGH A SANDSTORM, HUNKER DOWN IN SHELTER IMMEDIATELY, and base an entire bit of wilderness survival on that concept.  But then I'd reduce their activity, make it so that normally you can see them coming (try and outrun the storm), with rare exceptions where one rises as the equivalent of a squall.

I just think the commonness of them has made them a nuisance; we can't afford to give sandstorms the credit they deserve, or else we'd never be able to -do- anything.  It makes them feel less of an atmospheric part of the game, and more like this random doodad that we just have to deal with sometimes.

[X-D]

Yeah, I am with Armaddict mostly.

I think that normally storms should come in quickly, ramp up quickly then depart the same way, like a cycle of say 30 minutes start to finish...maybe 60, but be more rare. Of course I also think if there is not a storm, during the day it be hotter.

The fact that now you have nice weather for 15 minutes after a reboot then storms everywhere till the next reboot does get a bit old.

[Fredd]

I'm on kind of the opposite end of this spectrum.  I believe sandstorms are simply too common.  I'd rather have them harsher, i.e. WHY ARE YOU TRAVELING THROUGH A SANDSTORM, HUNKER DOWN IN SHELTER IMMEDIATELY, and base an entire bit of wilderness survival on that concept.  But then I'd reduce their activity, make it so that normally you can see them coming (try and outrun the storm), with rare exceptions where one rises as the equivalent of a squall.

I just think the commonness of them has made them a nuisance; we can't afford to give sandstorms the credit they deserve, or else we'd never be able to -do- anything.  It makes them feel less of an atmospheric part of the game, and more like this random doodad that we just have to deal with sometimes.

This level of storm would be cool. Take it as someone who's lived through brownouts and sandstorms IRL.

1:A sandstorm can hurt, that's sand whipping at 100 mph into your faces eyes, and lungs.

2:Sandstorms can choke you: Dust can clog your lungs and choke you.

I'de like to see a reason to rest a mount (making it hunker down) and set up a tent, or get into a cave. The storms can even damage the tents over time, making more work and interactions for crafters.

And if you don't, maybe movement is a lot more, and you take some damage.

But maybe there's facewraps and such to help you, in case you REALLY have to get through that storm.

[Dresan]

For the sake of fun and playability I would at least like to see the beaten path out of redstorm normalized  in terms of weather.

In particular the area between the pillar and redstorm. The coded weather there has always felt rather wonky, as in I can usually expect to wake up early in my mornings and expect it to be clear but later in the day when more people log in the weather seems to gets worse. I don't think its to much to ask a three room path from the gate to the pillar have more calm weather just for the sake of promoting interaction.

That said, if you go off the beaten path then yeah harsher blinding weather should be expected.

[betweenford]

I think it would be cool if there were zone specific storm echoes similar to breathing in ash but storms themselves shouldnt really be too dangerous. Even just echoing that without a storm mask/facewrap you're being choked and blinded by the storm periodically, even if it has no coded effect on you.

Moreso of the opinion certain stretches of the Red Desert should be filled with more flavor/annoyance wildlife like wasp swarms, wild sunbacks but red, and idk biting fly swarms that dont do anything but have like annoying echos. Little dust devils that fling you into adjacent rooms and wander. Sand gremlins that I can one hit kill.

[Dresan]

I'm on kind of the opposite end of this spectrum.  I believe sandstorms are simply too common.  I'd rather have them harsher, i.e. WHY ARE YOU TRAVELING THROUGH A SANDSTORM, HUNKER DOWN IN SHELTER IMMEDIATELY, and base an entire bit of wilderness survival on that concept.  But then I'd reduce their activity, make it so that normally you can see them coming (try and outrun the storm), with rare exceptions where one rises as the equivalent of a squall.

I like this idea as a potential danger in remote locations away from civilization. Turning direction sense as not just a means to ward off annoyance, but truely an important survival tool in certain situations.

That said, around the beaten paths between city states and towns, I would still hope staff considers toning down the storm or making them much much more rare and mild. Again this goes double in the area between the pillar and redstorm gates. Players are often just trying to get to and from places seeking interaction, they aren't always going out to trying to explore the world or even interact with npcs.  The biggest danger in those places should be encountering other players, and often storms in those particular location prevent those cool interactions. Wanting to go from town to town looking for RP should be encouraged instead of gating them behind specific skills or clunky weather effects.

[Brokkr]

For the sake of fun and playability I would at least like to see the beaten path out of redstorm normalized  in terms of weather.

In particular the area between the pillar and redstorm. The coded weather there has always felt rather wonky, as in I can usually expect to wake up early in my mornings and expect it to be clear but later in the day when more people log in the weather seems to gets worse. I don't think its to much to ask a three room path from the gate to the pillar have more calm weather just for the sake of promoting interaction.

That said, if you go off the beaten path then yeah harsher blinding weather should be expected.

For some of us playability also means challenge.  Red Storm from the very start was intended to be hard to get to.  At one point only rangers could get to it reliably.  Your desire to play there with all types of characters doesn't change that a level of challenge in and around Red Storm was and is intended.  Likewise, travel is supposed to have a level of challenge.  Sometimes that is NPCs, sometimes weather and in the best of times other PCs.

[Dresan]

For some of us playability also means challenge.

Its not that i disagree with you, its just i have a different idea of what challenge is to me.

When the two things you need to get in and out of redstorm is to type run and direction sense, or just log off and try again some other time, this isn't really a challenge its just an annoyance at best.

More challenging to me would have been players encouraging players to wander around those areas, sometimes with max scan compared to my megre subclass stealth or sometimes with high charge/ride compared to my half assed ride along the path. Those desert elves used to have a terrifying presence in the north so many years ago now as well.

To be clear, its not that I want to diminish the value of direction sense for exploration and adventure in the remote wilderness, heck you should probably make it even more important with Armaddict suggestion. However, in regards to the beaten paths of the game I am suggesting a different type of 'challenge' that actually promotes getting players to move and meet is probably a better way to go just for these location.

It changes the conversation to, 'hey can you get me get to X because you picked a class/subguild with  direction sense' to 'hey can you help me get to X because I know its easy for players to camp there and I don't want to get robbed or die'. In the case where there might not be enough players active in the game or area to provide that 'challenge' well then perhaps travel should be easier because again it'll promote more player interaction at some point.

[Armaddict]

Red Storm from the very start was intended to be hard to get to.

I think for this small derail that is still related, this statement is kind of the gist of it.  We have a small village in the most unforgiving part of the world that is intended to be isolated, but in reality, it's really not that far away at all.  So inclement weather being the rule there was the tradeoff.  The problem is, as I said when I proposed the idea that Dresan alludes to, sandstorms in their current form are something that either become a nuisance that you ignore, or something that blocks off activity altogether and forces a logoff.  Honestly, in regards to red storm, I'd probably make the drastic proposal that it should be moved much further away.

I do not believe that the 'quest for interaction' was an idea that was thought of in the original game.  It became more popular as the wastes became less hostile (less prevalence of raiding due to player mentality shift, i.e. We have a lot less low-scene, high-efficacy raiders out than the game originally had, and they were always the #1 danger of the wastes, followed closely by things like gith that would literally be found anywhere).  It also became more of a focus to abandon all in order to find interaction, because each individual civilization center became less interactive (i.e. Complaints about the empty bar scene).  The prevalence of wilderness characters also went up, due to the boons of being able to travel at a whim.  Originally, when all this was going on, sticking around in a single civilization center was -much- more prevalent than constant travel.

Sandstorms do need some sort of work.  They just don't contribute a lot in their current form.  But we also only have 2 coders, who both have entire lists of projects that they want to tackle with limited time, so no matter what, I don't think we'll see a quick solution.

Maintaining the harshness of Zalanthas is a seriously important thing.  I think you're taking the 'challenge' part of Brokkr's reply a certain way.  The sandstorm itself is not the challenge.  The challenge is supposed to be reaching Red Storm.  Heavy weather patterns were an atmospheric, environmental-based way of doing it, rather than putting just a bunch of random baddies that would end up just being hunted.  But maybe that is the best solution; make the -actual road- to redstorm be easier to travel on during a storm, but have it be ramshackle enough that the movement speed is slowed, the movement cost is raised, and packs of jakhals are everywhere or something.

We're a bunch of creative people, I think we can come up with something.  But the most important things are: 
-Red Storm is supposed to be isolated.
-Freedom-of-travel is not a convenience, it's a specialization.  (granted this is a resignation, not a 'solution' perse, but it's the acceptance that this will always be a difficult trip despite proximity, and just because you want to go doesn't mean you'll get there).
-Our solution needs to be as minimal on the code side as possible if we want it to be addressed anytime soon.  We may be able to make a code-heavier response later.

This is a specific response to just the Red Storm part of the sandstorm discussion.  My original idea presentation stands for sandstorms as a whole, I just don't think that's as urgent.

[Dresan]

stuff

I really like the idea of it taking a lot longer to move from room to room in certain particular areas, while at the same time making it obvious you are attempting to do move to another room.

Not fully sold on it needing too more stamina points, tried mounts usually just leads to idle down time but I am not totally against that either

There is even a clan in redstorm that should be able to make great use that feature of the terrain to make it much more challenging area to traverse than the current coded storms. And again I am only refering to the travel paths from place to place, not the entire area as a whole, however i know that might be hard to make distinction given the coded weather area coverages.

[Halaster]

I'm on kind of the opposite end of this spectrum.  I believe sandstorms are simply too common.  I'd rather have them harsher, i.e. WHY ARE YOU TRAVELING THROUGH A SANDSTORM, HUNKER DOWN IN SHELTER IMMEDIATELY, and base an entire bit of wilderness survival on that concept.  But then I'd reduce their activity, make it so that normally you can see them coming (try and outrun the storm), with rare exceptions where one rises as the equivalent of a squall.

I just think the commonness of them has made them a nuisance; we can't afford to give sandstorms the credit they deserve, or else we'd never be able to -do- anything.  It makes them feel less of an atmospheric part of the game, and more like this random doodad that we just have to deal with sometimes.

I agree with this, and it's been something in the back of my mind (and other staff) to implement.  Less storms, but when they happen they're worse.

[LindseyBalboa]

100%. A sandstorm should be this opportunity to hunker down, make shelter, and wait it out and rp with your travel group. Terrifying but not every day I play, so I can react appropriately. love this.

[betweenford]

Sometimes ppl have garbo wisdom and the storm is inside a civilized location, you'll just get lost inside of rsv or luirs outpost in the middle of the day

[Veselka]

I think one of the benefits of living in civilization should be avoiding all except the very worst of sandstorms.

I think when traveling outside, you should definitely run into more severe storms, and less predictable storms. Currently, you can 'break through' a storm by traveling to a different area just outside of it. A good example would be around Tuluk -- Often the area around the Grey Forest/North Road and Plains surrounding it can be a fierce, direction-losing storm, and if you manage to get just south of it by a room into the Scrub Plains (a different zone), it can be 100% clear.

In an ideal world, i'd like to see sandstorms be less static and hover over an area, and be more like moving objects. You have the 'eye of the storm' invisible object, and then anywhere from 6-10 rooms around it worsening in severity. The object moves through an area, almost like a tornado, and then dissipates. In that way, if you hunker down, you are likely to have the storm pass you by. If you decide to travel through the storm, you may just be moving with it until it dissipates.

Having things like static electricity lightning, whipping sand causing stun/hp damage, and a general stamina loss unless inside a tent would also be things I would welcome. As Armaddict put it, it's either something that is completely ignored or accepted as part of the milieu of the setting, or it is debilitatingly long in its static effects. I'd like to see sandstorms be more affecting on PCs and the environment, but to also be avoidable if enough preventative equipment is brought along, and the people who know how to use it.

Similarly, i'd love to see people from Luirs (+) and Red Storm (++) have a bonus to direction sense as part of their origin, and perhaps bonuses to using certain equipment due to their living in environments plagued by storms. Or to include as part of a subguild/origin subguild that provides advantages to traveling in and hunkering down through rough storms.

[Brisket]

I'm on kind of the opposite end of this spectrum.  I believe sandstorms are simply too common.  I'd rather have them harsher, i.e. WHY ARE YOU TRAVELING THROUGH A SANDSTORM, HUNKER DOWN IN SHELTER IMMEDIATELY, and base an entire bit of wilderness survival on that concept.  But then I'd reduce their activity, make it so that normally you can see them coming (try and outrun the storm), with rare exceptions where one rises as the equivalent of a squall.

I just think the commonness of them has made them a nuisance; we can't afford to give sandstorms the credit they deserve, or else we'd never be able to -do- anything.  It makes them feel less of an atmospheric part of the game, and more like this random doodad that we just have to deal with sometimes.

This is very much how I feel on the subject.  They're a nuisance because they're so common, and there's no warning so you either just shrug and spam walk your memorized route to where the rp is or log out.  If they were less common (or even as frequent, but less long lasting) but way more dangerous it'd be much cooler and more thematic.

[Brytta Léofa]

I just think the commonness of them has made them a nuisance; we can't afford to give sandstorms the credit they deserve, or else we'd never be able to -do- anything.  It makes them feel less of an atmospheric part of the game, and more like this random doodad that we just have to deal with sometimes.

I agree with this, and it's been something in the back of my mind (and other staff) to implement.  Less storms, but when they happen they're worse.

My concern with "less storms" is that city folk will start risking the trip to Red Storm (because they'll probably get lucky) and dying randomly (because sometimes they don't).

(I'm not arguing against occasional worse storms, or with reducing nuisance storms in main population areas.)

What if everybody knew that you simply can't get to Red Storm without a savvy guide?

[Veselka]

I think it would also make obvious the advantages of traveling in a wagon or argosy.