Feedback on Idea Wanted: Rationalization of Existing Mundane Subclasses

[RheaGhe]

Now, here's the thought I just had.

I keep thinking of these subclasses as complete "mini-classes" with no optional skills.   They are complete units by themselves.   Perhaps con-artists shouldn't have scan, but flee is better for the character trope.

I'd argue for a different idea for Con-artists.

Keep scan, they need it to spot marks.

Flee is silly, only a "bad" con-artist needs to run away.

[Pariah]

Now, here's the thought I just had.

I keep thinking of these subclasses as complete "mini-classes" with no optional skills.   They are complete units by themselves.   Perhaps con-artists shouldn't have scan, but flee is better for the character trope.

I'd argue for a different idea for Con-artists.

Keep scan, they need it to spot marks.

Flee is silly, only a "bad" con-artist needs to run away.

Welcome to Armageddon, everyone starts out bad here.

[RheaGhe]

Now, here's the thought I just had.

I keep thinking of these subclasses as complete "mini-classes" with no optional skills.   They are complete units by themselves.   Perhaps con-artists shouldn't have scan, but flee is better for the character trope.

I'd argue for a different idea for Con-artists.

Keep scan, they need it to spot marks.

Flee is silly, only a "bad" con-artist needs to run away.

Welcome to Armageddon, everyone starts out bad here.

Not what I mean...

Conceptually, you assume that a guild/subguild is going to be successful.

It's the reason Miscreant, a VERY versatile class, doesn't have certain skills that would be nice to have, because it would prevent failure early on, but later on would prove poorly used.

Conceptually, A successful con-artist, shouldn't be running away, fleeing just proves the accuser right.

Conceptually, a successful pickpocket flees, because they need to act quickly.

[Brokkr]

I will probably stick with the most famous advice I know on swindlin' people:

You got to know when to hold 'em,
know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away,
and know when to run

[wizturbo]

I think it may be a good idea to give Mercenary a skillset that would enable someone to join the Byn and be mildly competent regardless of their mainguild choice.   Maybe it's just a name swap with another more combat capable subguild?

[Halaster]

What we're trying to avoid is power/skill creep.  I know there's a lot of "it makes sense if so-and-so gets this skill", and while you could tailor an argument to support most of those of claims, we want to maintain some game balance.  We don't want a combo who can do so many things that they're a one-person-shop.

Add to that the notion that it's easier to add more things later to a subguild than to take away.  If your-favorite-subguild doesn't get the skill you think it should and we add it now, but later decide it's OP, there'd be hell to pay if we removed it. 

I had a very long list of skills to remove from all of this, and after some convo's with Brokkr we reduced that by a good bit.  In fact, I think we should all collectively be looking at it from the angle of "what combo of these proposals would be OP?".

[Agent_137]

I don't see a subguild with flee and parry which IMO was obvious choice for all classes that don't get those skill as they are #1 for surviving combat.  If I had to pick between the two, I'd take flee over parry but now there appear to be no subclasses with that?

[roughneck]

In fact, I think we should all collectively be looking at it from the angle of "what combo of these proposals would be OP?".

I love these subclasses. I don't know if I'd call anything, but some are pretty fucking deadly, especially with certain racial traits.

Delf scout/slipknife is pk perfection.

In general, delves ability to get this new level of City/Criminal skills I think will be the biggest change in the game world. It really cements Delves as simply being a superior version of elf, with better abilities and starting skills, rather than just a "different" kind of elf.

Not saying I'm against it, but this opens up more new options for delves than anyone else. For example, previously I could play a human infiltrator/outdoorsman and it wouldn't be that much different than the new scout/slipknife combo in terms of effectiveness and role aside from a few skills and abilities. Delves never had that option, they do now.

Master criminal/city skills were never available to delves before, and in my mind that was for balance as much as it was for theme.

[roughneck]

I don't see a subguild with flee and parry which IMO was obvious choice for all classes that don't get those skill as they are #1 for surviving combat.  If I had to pick between the two, I'd take flee over parry but now there appear to be no subclasses with that?

Guard has Master parry and Advanced flee based on the excel image thingy.

[mansa]

What we're trying to avoid is power/skill creep.  I know there's a lot of "it makes sense if so-and-so gets this skill", and while you could tailor an argument to support most of those of claims, we want to maintain some game balance.  We don't want a combo who can do so many things that they're a one-person-shop.

Add to that the notion that it's easier to add more things later to a subguild than to take away.  If your-favorite-subguild doesn't get the skill you think it should and we add it now, but later decide it's OP, there'd be hell to pay if we removed it. 

I had a very long list of skills to remove from all of this, and after some convo's with Brokkr we reduced that by a good bit.  In fact, I think we should all collectively be looking at it from the angle of "what combo of these proposals would be OP?".

When I think of "Over Powered" subclasses, I immediately disregard any of the crafting subclasses, and social engineering category of classes (thievery, perception, language), and focus purely on combat oriented classes.


I start to think about how characters are constructed:  class + subclass
Since most of the magick is put into a subclass, the other subclasses should give perks that people can use to get an edge over magick subclasses.  I'm curious how much will but cut-back from the recently presented list.

[DesertT]

I will probably stick with the most famous advice I know on swindlin' people:

You got to know when to hold 'em,
know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away,
and know when to run

That's the Gambler.  I don't see a gambling subclass.

All I read here was, regardless of what arguments have been stated, we're going with what one staff member suggested.

[Brokkr]

Dude got the last swallow and the cigarette, he was totally a con artist.

Most of the arguments seem to simply be what people prefer.  Or stuff like spotting marks.  That are hidden?  To do...what, exactly?

A gambler is a good approximation of how I view the subclass.  Peek to see their cards, sleight of hand to switch around yours.

How were you thinking of it?

[Armaddict]

Most of the arguments seem to simply be what people prefer.  Or stuff like spotting marks.  That are hidden?  To do...what, exactly?

I was posting something similar and deleted it.  Not sure why you'd see someone trying to avoid notice as a potential conartist mark.  Blackmail maybe?  Not sure.

Mostly, though...everyone is trying to put certain skills into every toolkit, without regard for how those impact other toolkits.  We can't have everyone being an anti-stealth specialist just because you want to be defensible against stealth.  Every character should have holes that they need help filling, and that's been my complaint about the class revamp for quite some time.

[wizturbo]

"what combo of these proposals would be OP?".

Subguilds that give master sap + stealth or master backstab + stealh seem potentially scary in combination with heavy combat main guilds.

[DesertT]

Dude got the last swallow and the cigarette, he was totally a con artist.

Most of the arguments seem to simply be what people prefer.  Or stuff like spotting marks.  That are hidden?  To do...what, exactly?

A gambler is a good approximation of how I view the subclass.  Peek to see their cards, sleight of hand to switch around yours.

How were you thinking of it?

My point remains from earlier in this thread that someone who is skilled at hiding and sneaking would be more able to skillfully pick out someone else who is also employing the same tips and tricks that they themselves use.

CATCH ME IF YOU CAN is a perfect example of this.  A con artist who had a wildly successful career, gets caught, essentially gets "rescued" by the United States, then is basically forced to help the FBI catch other con artists.

Is there a better real life example?

[Patuk]

"what combo of these proposals would be OP?".

Subguilds that give master sap + stealth or master backstab + stealh seem potentially scary in combination with heavy combat main guilds.

In a world of magical subclasses, nothing mundane is going to be all that OP.

[Halaster]

All I read here was, regardless of what arguments have been stated, we're going with what one staff member suggested.

Then you've completely missed the point of two different staffers posting and discussing ideas.  Not to mention how many player ideas Brokkr specifically incorporated.

[DesertT]

   
@Halaster

I was specifically responding to Brokkr's post regarding the Con Artist sub-class which he made below.

Was your post specifically talking about Brokkr's post below or other parts of the conversation that have branched after Brokkr's below post?

My comment was specifically about Con Artist. 

Maybe I should add that I'm getting more and more bitter. 

But that's for another complaint tool. 

Considering replacing Con Artist skill scan with flee, at the suggestion of another Staff member.

Maybe I should've done better and quoted the exact post I was referring to, so now I have.

To recap, the whole story behind the movie "Catch Me if You Can" would seem to support a con artist being able to spot other con artists, thus why his involvement with the FBI to catch other con artists.

That only goes to my point of a Con Artist being able to both Hide and Scan, rather than Hide and Flee, which according to Brokkr, was suggested by ONE staff member.

[roughneck]

Dude, if being great at both scan and stealth mean that much to you, pick one of the four main classes that offer Master in both!

There shouldn't be any subclasses that give both Master scan and Stealth, it's too much.

[Hauwke]

I'm completely glossing over any arguement DesertT makes because he thinks it's okay to make his words bigger than everyone else.

[Halaster]

To recap, the whole story behind the movie "Catch Me if You Can" would seem to support a con artist being able to spot other con artists, thus why his involvement with the FBI to catch other con artists.

That only goes to my point of a Con Artist being able to both Hide and Scan, rather than Hide and Flee, which according to Brokkr, was suggested by ONE staff member.[/size][/font]

The guy in the movie was also really good at evading the authorities and running from them, which sounds like flee to me.  I get where you're coming from, but that's a movie about a guy pretending to be other people and forgery, which just is not really an applicable comparison in my opinion. 

[Brokkr]

I have taken Staff feedback a couple of times now.  The only thing out of the ordinary is that it came, and was something I agreed with, after I had made things public, again.

I've also taken plenty of player feedback, incorporating some and not incorporating some, which becomes a judgement call.  Some of the feedback that was incorporated also sometimes came from a single player, so not sure why something being from a Staff member is more triggering than another player having a differing viewpoint.  All they did was make a suggestion that I agreed with.  Just like pretty much all the changes that have been incorporated, whether from Staff or players.

[DesertT]

I Like. Big. Words and I cannot lie...

Also, age.

Lastly, I'm just frustrated overall.

I seem to be on the losing end of every objection or even suggestion that I make to Staff regarding anything right now.

IC and OOC.

I could understand batting .500; hell, I could understand batting .150, but I'm batting .000 and it feels AMAZING!!

[BadSkeelz]

Honestly I think your font has a lot to do with that, I kind of gloss over your posts too lol

[wizturbo]

I could understand batting .500; hell, I could understand batting .150, but I'm batting .000 and it feels AMAZING!!

The frustration evident in your posts (and that blasphemous font) likely impact your 'hit' rate.  But the analogy here is kind of busted.  I don't think the staff are trying to throw fast balls at you.  It's a rigged game, they want you to hit home runs. 

My suggestion is to poke staff and ask for a chat.  Go have a virtual beer together, clear the air and reset your 'swing' and have them better calibrate their pitches so you can slam more home runs.