How Best to Implement a Notify/Mail System?

[Gentleboy]

We've talked about this on other threads and it keeps getting a bit buried.

Here's a post to talk about opinions and ideas!

Please keep it respectful, playful, and somewhat PG-18.

[Patuk]

Give people the ability to nudge others even if they're offline. Limit this to one nudge per character per IC day so it isn't overblown. The person receiving these gets to see them with OOC date and time so playtimes matching up aren't a nebulous mystery, plus the person's sdesc for good measure.

I think that would be a good(and slow) start for people to see how it'd go.

[mansa]

As a trial basis...


I would implement a message system

a) a single message to be sent to another player.
- - It would prevent a second message to be sent to anyone UNTIL the first one has been read and received
- - This is the trial part of the system.  If there isn't abuse, then this requirement can be removed.

b) It would save the message as a 'bio' entry type system on the character's profile, to be viewable at anytime in the past/future.  It will not be allowed to be deleted.   This would be viewable by staff and the character, exactly the same as bio entries.

c) The help file should make reference to the message to be sent as an 'in-game / in-character message, either stylized as a psi message or an in-game courier.

d) The message would contain the sdesc of the person who sent it, and not their name.

[Fredd]

I like my ping idea from the thread that no-longer exists.

Ping (sdesc+keywords) mm/dd/yy (time)

And the other person, when logged on next, would get a ping that says  (sdesc) pings you mm/dd/yy (time)

This would be simple and straight forward. if the time doesn't jive, the dude can ping back a different time. (or ping back the same time to aknowledge it)

[stoicreader]

I would make a message-taking script that can be attached to NPCs.

This script I would test in certain clans that often don't have newbies who'd abuse it. Perhaps an NPC in the nobles quarter in Allanak.

If it works, the script can be attached to NPCs in all clans.

If it works in all clans, then making one for each area of civilization- Nak, Labyrinth, RSV, Luir's, Tuluk, Morins, Mul outpost, Cenyr. If it's abused, scale back. It's not attached to your account, or psionics, and it's how you'd do messages in an illiterate society IRL.

[Brytta Léofa]

I would explicitly call it psionics, not message-passing, since that is something already available and world-spanning.

I have two ideas; I think they're both reasonable.

Version 1: psi -offline <keywords> "Message in quotes."
- You must specify at least three keywords.
- You can send up to five messages per day, only one to the same set of keywords.
  - You can game this a little by specifying different keywords for the same person, and that's fine.
- Message and your sdesc are delivered to the first person who logs in matching all the keywords.

Version 2: contact + psi work when you're logged off, and we all adjust our response expectations.
- But it doesn't work if you log off with psionics blocked (barrier etc.). You can still play dead.
- Yes, people can send you hundreds of messages while you're offline.
- We get some kind of a nice in-game interface for browsing messages received while offline.
- So crazy it might actually be cool: you can browse your offline psis--or heck, all your psis ever received--via a web interface.
- ZOMGWTFBBQ: Arm texts your mobile phone when you get an offline message (max one per sender per day).

Fredd, I like your ping idea also.

[Halaster]

"I've been looking for you.  Got something I'm supposed to deliver - your hands only.
Let's see here....  <msg>"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbiTODVXMro

[Mercy]

I like my ping idea from the thread that no-longer exists.

Ping (sdesc+keywords) mm/dd/yy (time)

And the other person, when logged on next, would get a ping that says  (sdesc) pings you mm/dd/yy (time)

This would be simple and straight forward. if the time doesn't jive, the dude can ping back a different time. (or ping back the same time to aknowledge it)

I just want to reiterate from my initial suggestion, I don't like the idea of giving an sdesc to the recipient to prevent any IC information being given. Even if we put IC flavor on it, it's really dancing all over that line. Also, if you've never actually seen someone's sdesc, it's very possible this command would inadvertently reveal it to you. A "pingreply" command or something to that effect to allow you to respond to the ping in question would be the route I'd like to see. Maybe give each ping an ID tag in the event you get multiple pings and need to reply to each individually. I could come up with a number of ways to display the information but ultimately I don't want it to actually reveal any IC info.

Version 2: contact + psi work when you're logged off, and we all adjust our response expectations.
- But it doesn't work if you log off with psionics blocked (barrier etc.). You can still play dead.
- Yes, people can send you hundreds of messages while you're offline.
- We get some kind of a nice in-game interface for browsing messages received while offline.
- So crazy it might actually be cool: you can browse your offline psis--or heck, all your psis ever received--via a web interface.
- ZOMGWTFBBQ: Arm texts your mobile phone when you get an offline message (max one per sender per day).

I really don't like the potential to bombard someone with psi messages this way. Especially if there is no feedback that the person is offline, it can lead to accidentally loading someone up with a ton of offline messages. Potentially gives too much feedback on if a person is alive or dead as well. I really want to like this suggestion honestly, in a lot of ways it seems fantastic. Maybe my qualms with it aren't a big deal, or aren't a big deal to enough of the community.

[hyzhenhok]

I would explicitly call it psionics, not message-passing, since that is something already available and world-spanning.

Version 1: psi -offline <keywords> "Message in quotes."
- You must specify at least three keywords.
- You can send up to five messages per day, only one to the same set of keywords.
  - You can game this a little by specifying different keywords for the same person, and that's fine.
- Message and your sdesc are delivered to the first person who logs in matching all the keywords.

I like this proposal, though instead of delivering it to the first person who logs in, I'd just deliver it to everyone who matches all of the keywords.  In addition:

• Make it last a limited amount of time (72 IRL hours to 1 IRL week). Only 3-5 messages allowed to be "active" at once.
• Once you send a message to someone you are not locked in; you can erase it and replace it.
• Anyone online without a barrier up when you send receives the message immediately, as though you had just psi'd it to them.
• Anyone else who matches who logs in or lowers their barrier will see the message, until it expires or you erase it.
• Anyone who sees the message is flagged and will not see the message again.

Call it broadcasting and use similar syntax and stun costs as contact. Like this:

Code Select Expand

>broadcast tall muscular man amos

You are now broadcasting to all minds that match "tall muscular man Amos." (anyone with all keywords will receive the messages)

>psi Mission accomplished. Can meet up late next week.

You broadcast at all persons who are tall, muscular, man, and Amos:  "Mission accomplished. Can meet up late next week."
You are currently maintaining 1 out of 3 possible broadcasts.

>psi Mission accomplished. Can meet up late the week after next.

You erase your previous broadcast at all persons who are tall, muscular, man, and Amos
You broadcast at all persons who are tall, muscular, man, and Amos:  "Mission accomplished. Can meet up late next week."
You are currently maintaining 1 out of 3 possible broadcasts.

>cease

You stop actively broadcasting.
You continue to passively broadcast 1 message.

A foreign presence contacts your mind.
The tall, muscular man sends, "Can you meet now?"

A foreign presence contacts your mind.
The tall, muscular man sends, "Who da fucks is you?"

>broadcast erase all
You erase your existing broadcasts.

Pausing for a second this would have interesting uses for broadcasting messages to all people wearing a uniform (broadcasting to the "military hooded aba" for instance), which may or may not need to be designed around.

[Gentleboy]

I like my ping idea from the thread that no-longer exists.

Ping (sdesc+keywords) mm/dd/yy (time)

And the other person, when logged on next, would get a ping that says  (sdesc) pings you mm/dd/yy (time)

This would be simple and straight forward. if the time doesn't jive, the dude can ping back a different time. (or ping back the same time to aknowledge it)

I just want to reiterate from my initial suggestion, I don't like the idea of giving an sdesc to the recipient to prevent any IC information being given. Even if we put IC flavor on it, it's really dancing all over that line. Also, if you've never actually seen someone's sdesc, it's very possible this command would inadvertently reveal it to you. A "pingreply" command or something to that effect to allow you to respond to the ping in question would be the route I'd like to see. Maybe give each ping an ID tag in the event you get multiple pings and need to reply to each individually. I could come up with a number of ways to display the information but ultimately I don't want it to actually reveal any IC info.

I agree, adding on an Sdesc is a bit icky for sneaky people, or people just wanting to give an anonymous tip. But, I think the reason that it's needed is because this is more so an OOC mechanic. And if it's abused to like fool or trick someone or harass someone, on a tool that's meant to be used in good faith, I know I would be annoyed.

Especially if someone is trying to meet with me, and it was all a lead up to a murder attempt or something. That would make me annoyed with the system. How do you all feel about that?

Would there be an ooc code of sort not to use the system for nefarious reasons? Or, is it just a MCB thing we should implement?

[stoicreader]

Everyone has their barrier up, it COSTS psionics to take the barrier down, per tick, that means, if your barrier is up, no one can contact you unless someone leaves a message.

"You can sense the sensation of the tall muscular man trying reach you."

[Delirium]

Just re-introduce mudmail with a character limit and amount of messages per day limit.

The only drawback is anonymity, which could be mostly solved by assigning your mudmail account a randomly generated string of numbers and letters that would be used to target your player account. You'd hand it out via the OOC command to people whom you want to be able to synchronize playtimes with, or alert to the fact that you'll be away from the game for x period of time, or any other reason why you'd need to communicate an OOC circumstance to keep the IC/OOC continuity fractures to a minimum.

If you don't want to respond to a mudmail, you don't need to. Introduce strict rules around it such as only facilitating playtimes, not harrassing PCs for being unable to match playtimes, not including IC information, etc. Further, keep the messages on pfile records so any abuse can be reported and dealt with.

The only other alternatives are awkward keyword-based IC methods which don't solve the OOC issues that are created by the lack of ability to facilitate playtimes and communications in a means that is both within the game and within the game rules. Otherwise people will just cheat and talk OOC.

Those who prefer anonymity and refuse to collude are left at a severe disadvantage to those who simply flout the rules without consequence. Concerns of mudmail leading to "play by mail" are outdated and irrelevant in the face of an increased ability to collaborate on playtimes and mitigate IC/OOC continuity issues, which would lead to logging in MORE and being able to progress plots that otherwise stall. Most of us don't have 8 hours a day to play this game and many of us have playtimes that barely overlap.

We shouldn't have to feel like we have to log in 24/7 just to receive information or find a PC that our characters should otherwise be able to, but can't because it's a game, which we aren't always logged into, because we have lives outside of it. The expectation of "handle everything IG" leads to unhealthy playstyles and unhealthy expectations which don't jive with playing the game enjoyably and responsibly.

[Gentleboy]

Just re-introduce mudmail with a character limit and amount of messages per day limit.

The only drawback is anonymity, which could be mostly solved by assigning your mudmail account a randomly generated string of numbers and letters that would be used to target your player account. You'd hand it out via the OOC command to people whom you want to be able to synchronize playtimes with, or alert to the fact that you'll be away from the game for x period of time, or any other reason why you'd need to communicate an OOC circumstance to keep the IC/OOC continuity fractures to a minimum.

If you don't want to respond to a mudmail, you don't need to. Introduce strict rules around it such as only facilitating playtimes, not harrassing PCs for being unable to match playtimes, not including IC information, etc. Further, keep the messages on pfile records so any abuse can be reported and dealt with.

The only other alternatives are awkward keyword-based IC methods which don't solve the OOC issues that are created by the lack of ability to facilitate playtimes and communications in a means that is both within the game and within the game rules. Otherwise people will just cheat and talk OOC.

Those who prefer anonymity and refuse to collude are left at a severe disadvantage to those who simply flout the rules without consequence. Concerns of mudmail leading to "play by mail" are outdated and irrelevant in the face of an increased ability to collaborate on playtimes and mitigate IC/OOC continuity issues, which would lead to logging in MORE and being able to progress plots that otherwise stall. Most of us don't have 8 hours a day to play this game and many of us have playtimes that barely overlap.

We shouldn't have to feel like we have to log in 24/7 just to receive information or find a PC that our characters should otherwise be able to, but can't because it's a game, which we aren't always logged into, because we have lives outside of it. The expectation of "handle everything IG" leads to unhealthy playstyles and unhealthy expectations which don't jive with playing the game enjoyably and responsibly.

You have some really great points.

What if the system is geared for leadership roles only? For them to get and send little pokes?

[Armaddict]

What if the system is geared for leadership roles only?

Wouldn't that be like a forum post in a clan board?  Or do you mean from leader-to-leader?

[Mercy]

Especially if someone is trying to meet with me, and it was all a lead up to a murder attempt or something. That would make me annoyed with the system. How do you all feel about that?

Honestly, that's part of the reason why I want it to be anonymous. If someone wants to murder my PC but can't figure out how to line up playtimes to make it happen, so they ping me to try and orchestrate a time to make it happen, I'm 100% down with that. And maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I feel like if you're going to ping me with a time to meet up, you're more inclined to make my PK an actual RP experience and not just a command spam-fest which is hands-down my least favorite way to watch a PC die. I know sometimes the spamfest is unavoidable, there's a lot of shit that happens way too fast in arm (I'm not gonna start that conversation here) but I don't think the command should be geared solely towards benevolent roleplay interaction. Antagonistic roleplay has it's place too and needs to have the ability to progress as well.

Just re-introduce mudmail with a character limit and amount of messages per day limit.

The only drawback is anonymity, which could be mostly solved by assigning your mudmail account a randomly generated string of numbers and letters that would be used to target your player account. You'd hand it out via the OOC command to people whom you want to be able to synchronize playtimes with, or alert to the fact that you'll be away from the game for x period of time, or any other reason why you'd need to communicate an OOC circumstance to keep the IC/OOC continuity fractures to a minimum.

If you don't want to respond to a mudmail, you don't need to. Introduce strict rules around it such as only facilitating playtimes, not harrassing PCs for being unable to match playtimes, not including IC information, etc. Further, keep the messages on pfile records so any abuse can be reported and dealt with.

The only other alternatives are awkward keyword-based IC methods which don't solve the OOC issues that are created by the lack of ability to facilitate playtimes and communications in a means that is both within the game and within the game rules. Otherwise people will just cheat and talk OOC.

Those who prefer anonymity and refuse to collude are left at a severe disadvantage to those who simply flout the rules without consequence. Concerns of mudmail leading to "play by mail" are outdated and irrelevant in the face of an increased ability to collaborate on playtimes and mitigate IC/OOC continuity issues, which would lead to logging in MORE and being able to progress plots that otherwise stall. Most of us don't have 8 hours a day to play this game and many of us have playtimes that barely overlap.

We shouldn't have to feel like we have to log in 24/7 just to receive information or find a PC that our characters should otherwise be able to, but can't because it's a game, which we aren't always logged into, because we have lives outside of it. The expectation of "handle everything IG" leads to unhealthy playstyles and unhealthy expectations which don't jive with playing the game enjoyably and responsibly.

If I'm understanding this correctly, this comes back around to the issue of having to run into the person you're trying to interact with to then say you're having issues interacting with them. Since you have to give people your mudmail tag for them to be able to mail you in the first place. It's generally not until I've struggled for several RL days to meet up with someone that I feel the soreness of not having some way to arrange a meeting. And I'll be honest, I'm too forgetful to remember to exchange mudmail names with people I meet nor do I really want to. It'd break the flow for me, personally. Granted that is a small price to pay, to be able to play at all. If there was some alternative method, maybe a nicknaming system that binds a mudmail account to the nickname you set for a person so whenever you mail that nickname it gets routed to their pre-generated mudmail name, I'd be more down with that. And if you get mail from someone who you have a nickname for it'll append that to the mail as well. I don't know how much effort all that would be to code, however.

As a sidenote: I'd 100% volunteer to quit playing Arm to be the mudmail snitch and just read mudmail in my off-time and report back to staff on anyone clearly crossing the IC/OOC barrier if that's what it took to implement a mail system.

[Armaddict]

Assuming something like this -does- happen, you'll also want to ensure some barrier against it letting you know if someone is alive or not.

And while that sounds well and good as far as 'planning the PK' circumstance, there is enough complaint about 'but I played along and they still killed me and I'm bitter about it' that I do not think that it will generally be a feel-good use of the mechanic.  It might start that way, but my impression from the way PvP goes in this game is that it would end up rubber-banding into some sort of OOC meta where people are avoiding times set or using the knowledge of the time setting to do other things.

OOC coordination in Arm gets complicated real fast for an entire multitude of reasons, and almost none of them require some sort of malicious intent on anyone's part.

I'm not for this stuff in pretty much any form, but I imagine there are some people who it could be -tremendously- helpful for, so all I'd have to say...code carefully, and don't be too upset if the code doesn't include everything you wanted.

[stoicreader]

I really don't like the mudmail system it is too OOC, can have abuse. Had failed in the past. We should also discuss WHY it failed.

I like walking up to the gate guard on the inside of the salari compound: "Hey when you see the rookie, let her know we got a business opportunity with Fale and to make 12 sparing weapons."

"Sure thing boss"

When rookie comes by and sees the gate guard, "Hey did any one happen to have a message for me?"

"Ohh yeah sDesc says......"

Or in the city proper to an NPC in a specific place, perhaps a nenyuk service.
"Hey, I'd like to leave a message to a friend"
"What's their name?"
"Goro"
"What's he look like?"
"Tall muscular"
"Aight, what do you want to tell him?"
"Your order for 12 sparring weapons is ready"
"Aight, if a tall and muscular person named Goro walks in I'll tell him that. That'll be 10 coins. Would you like me to secretly tell them through the way for 20?"
"No it's cool if you say it out loud." *Hands 10 coins over.*

[Spiceoflife]

The in game message boards for clans aren't used enough but that's what they are for and the forum when in a clan..

[CalmThyPalm]

The in game message boards for clans aren't used enough but that's what they are for and the forum when in a clan..

We have clan boards?! I've never seen any outside of the taverns!

[stoicreader]

The in game message boards for clans aren't used enough but that's what they are for and the forum when in a clan..

I actually stopped joining clan boards because I don't want anyone to connect me IC to me OOC. I get random messages on discord because of clan boards.

While I have made friends, it feels invasive. I've had people google my IRL name and say some creepy sh*t. (I now give a fake IRL name when people ask). If we could keep communication in-game with a messaging tool from character to character, that would be better for a whole slew of reasons.

***I very well know I can make alt accounts on the GDB for remaining anonymous.***

[pilgrim]

I just want to reiterate from my initial suggestion, I don't like the idea of giving an sdesc to the recipient to prevent any IC information being given. Even if we put IC flavor on it, it's really dancing all over that line. Also, if you've never actually seen someone's sdesc, it's very possible this command would inadvertently reveal it to you. A "pingreply" command or something to that effect to allow you to respond to the ping in question would be the route I'd like to see. Maybe give each ping an ID tag in the event you get multiple pings and need to reply to each individually. I could come up with a number of ways to display the information but ultimately I don't want it to actually reveal any IC info.

This is still my favorite idea. If someone is going to murder you, you just being online or offline doesn't seem like a really IC way to deal with the attempt anyway.

[Mercy]

Assuming something like this -does- happen, you'll also want to ensure some barrier against it letting you know if someone is alive or not.

And while that sounds well and good as far as 'planning the PK' circumstance, there is enough complaint about 'but I played along and they still killed me and I'm bitter about it' that I do not think that it will generally be a feel-good use of the mechanic.  It might start that way, but my impression from the way PvP goes in this game is that it would end up rubber-banding into some sort of OOC meta where people are avoiding times set or using the knowledge of the time setting to do other things.

The command in question shouldn't return any feedback whatsoever, so you never know if the person is alive/dead unless they pingreply you. Assuming you targeted the correct person in the first place.

The "I played along and they still killed me" bit seems childish to me, honestly. But I don't really want to get into my views on the whole thing, in this thread. I get the concern, but if people are going to freak out without explicit assurance that someone is contacting them to meet in a safe and probably beneficial manner, then the whole thing seems kind of moot to me.

In my experience pushback makes people want to game the system. If you feel like you get stonewalled at every turn you start looking for ways over and under the walls. But this also feels like I'm going to end up on a tangent.

I really don't like the mudmail system it is too OOC, can have abuse. Had failed in the past. We should also discuss WHY it failed.

I like walking up to the gate guard on the inside of the salari compound: "Hey when you see the rookie, let her know we got a business opportunity with Fale and to make 12 sparing weapons."

"Sure thing boss"

When rookie comes by and sees the gate guard, "Hey did any one happen to have a message for me?"

"Ohh yeah sDesc says......"

Or in the city proper to an NPC in a specific place, perhaps a nenyuk service.
"Hey, I'd like to leave a message to a friend"
"What's their name?"
"Goro"
"What's he look like?"
"Tall muscular"
"Aight, what do you want to tell him?"
"Your order for 12 sparring weapons is ready"
"Aight, if a tall and muscular person named Goro walks in I'll tell him that. That'll be 10 coins. Would you like me to secretly tell them through the way for 20?"
"No it's cool if you say it out loud." *Hands 10 coins over.*

If there was a command to convert a RL time to IG time, and vice versa, yeah I'm down with this. I don't love it but sure. Without some kind of way to state an actual time at someone, it doesn't actually do much in terms of advancing coordination. I've played message tag like this with actual PCs as the intermediary and still not been able to get ahold of the person I want to talk to. An npc can increase the speed/reliability of the tag, but without knowing when they left the message at least, or them being able to communicate some kind of future time, it seems like lacking.

[Dan]

Psionicists should be able to browse messages hanging in the pending delivery ether.

[stoicreader]

If there was a command to convert a RL time to IG time, and vice versa, yeah I'm down with this. I don't love it but sure. Without some kind of way to state an actual time at someone, it doesn't actually do much in terms of advancing coordination. I've played message tag like this with actual PCs as the intermediary and still not been able to get ahold of the person I want to talk to. An npc can increase the speed/reliability of the tag, but without knowing when they left the message at least, or them being able to communicate some kind of future time, it seems like lacking.

Interesting perspective. I'm happy with whatever you come up with.

[MeTekillot]

I agree with Delirium's MUDmail idea. Just make it a menu based interface where you can only select playtimes to communicate.