Subguild None and Change Subguild

[Fragmented]

Just a question for clarification - if I have 0/1 karma with 1 point regenerating in 10 days and I select none, and then go to change subguild after karma has regenerated, do I now have access to those extended subguilds unlocked by karma?

Same for being 0/0 and being awarded 1 karma during the "none" period. Can I now access the 1 karma gated extended subguilds?

[Jahash]

From what I understand, you can add your new subguild when you regen the karma. So short answer: yes.

[Halaster]

Just a question for clarification - if I have 0/1 karma with 1 point regenerating in 10 days and I select none, and then go to change subguild after karma has regenerated, do I now have access to those extended subguilds unlocked by karma?

Same for being 0/0 and being awarded 1 karma during the "none" period. Can I now access the 1 karma gated extended subguilds?

As Jahash said:  yes.

It looks at your current karma at the moment you type the change command.

[SpyGuy]

Now I understand the common use case for this!  It's certainly a frustration if you've got a concept ready but have a few days or even hours you still need to regen karma.

Thanks Hal and other coders.

[mansa]

There was some discussion about it on the discord channel:

Riev:
What if your Subguild starts a skill higher than your main guild? Will choosing the subguild still 'bump' it higher?

Halaster:
You'll essentially get whatever is best for you.  If your subguild gives you a better ride than what you already have, your ride will go up to match the subguild.  If your ride is already higher than what the subguild gives you, you'll keep the higher ride.


Riev:
"Where is this role taking me? Master Cook it is!"
You can choose to NOT have a subguild, at start, and then you can choose one later.
PRESUMABLY for both RP choices, and for "I don't have enough karma for the 1karma ESG yet"

Halaster:
for the RP choices, the karma thing is just a bonus I guess

Riev:
Unintended Feature!


Barsook:
Is there a time limit on keeping the None sub?

Halaster:
You must choose it before you die. 🙂

Riev:
... what if we DO die with no Subguild? I have so many questions lol

Halaster:
If you die with no subguild then you advance to the next level of spiritual awakening.


Bushranger:
I really like this new idea. Who needs a subguild on a lot of their new characters until they fall into a role 😄

Reiloth:
it'll be nice to figure out after a few days played what direction they are moving
Kudos to Staff on this change -- I think it will go a long way in having people jump back into PCs, waiting for their Karma timer for extended subguilds

Katima:
I'm stoked for the potential of it myself. I always give my PCs pretty concrete backstories as far as personalities, but leave direction open to change. That's generally okay but sometimes you set them up expecting a b c and end up getting q s v, and being able to just leave a quarter to a third of the PC's potential open to circumstance down the road is fantastical.

[Patuk]

This is neat and I like it.

[Lotion]

Big nerf to karma jail

[Jarvis]

Absolutely adore this idea.

[Fredd]

So Karma isn't about slowing restarts.

One step closer to getting rid of Karma, and just letting us app what we want. Sweet!

That being said, i love this, not only does it open up the ability for me to choose what feels best after playing my person. But it also opens up deeper roleplay options for apprentice/master relationships.

[Incognito]

Totally with this upgrade!

You can take on a role with an employer, get a feel for them and their requirements for a bit, and then choose a subguild that will be most beneficial to you and your employer, and probably end up scoring some brownie points and making sids at the same time. That's provided you've left your concept open in your background of course.

[lostinspace]

 Is there any worry that this feature will be abused to suicide for better stats?

It sounds like anyone can reroll with subguild none over and over until they get the stats they want, and then spend their karma.

I only ask because preventing stat suicides was one of the reasons stated for the new karma system, and this new feature seems to be a direct loophole from what I understand about it.

[Quell]

Is there any worry that this feature will be abused to suicide for better stats?

It sounds like anyone can reroll with subguild none over and over until they get the stats they want, and then spend their karma.

I only ask because preventing stat suiceds was one of the reasons stated for the new karma system, and this new feature seems to be a direct loophole from what I understand about it.

I don't think you can spend any karma with this feature? It only allows mundane subguilds I thought.

[lostinspace]

Master woodworker is a mundane subguild that costs 1 karma. It's nice that they already accounted for magic/psionic subguild though.

[Quell]

Master woodworker is a mundane subguild that costs 1 karma. It's nice that they already accounted for magic/psionic subguild though.

It requires 1 karma, not costs 1 karma.

Assuming you had 1 karma, you could play 10 in a row with no issue.

[Halaster]

Is there any worry that this feature will be abused to suicide for better stats?

It sounds like anyone can reroll with subguild none over and over until they get the stats they want, and then spend their karma.

I only ask because preventing stat suicides was one of the reasons stated for the new karma system, and this new feature seems to be a direct loophole from what I understand about it.

Sure, I suppose that's possible.  When someone starts churning through characters we notice, and if we suspect they're stat-fishing, we take appropriate measures.  I don't think it's going to be a huge problem, though, because the extended 1-k subguilds aren't something you "spend" karma on.  If you have 1 current karma they're available to you, but you don't consume the karma when you use one.  So I don't believe this will make a difference there?

[Troicha]

the extended 1-k subguilds aren't something you "spend" karma on.  If you have 1 current karma they're available to you, but you don't consume the karma when you use one. 

Can I ask why this is the case? It wasn't at all intuitive to me that the extended subguild options still use the old karma 'gate' system rather than the new karma 'consumption' system. Is it just a holdover that hasn't been migrated yet due to lack of time, interest, or expertise, Or is there some other particular decision that went into the way this works?

[mansa]

the extended 1-k subguilds aren't something you "spend" karma on.  If you have 1 current karma they're available to you, but you don't consume the karma when you use one. 

Can I ask why this is the case? It wasn't at all intuitive to me that the extended subguild options still use the old karma 'gate' system rather than the new karma 'consumption' system. Is it just a holdover that hasn't been migrated yet due to lack of time, interest, or expertise, Or is there some other particular decision that went into the way this works?

I don't think Halaster was actively staff (or even reading the GDB) when those decisions were made.

A bit of History:
#1 - Magickers became subclass only at the same time spendable character generation points (karma) became active.  ( https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg934830.html#msg934830 )
#2 - Extended Subclasses used to consume 1 karma when picked during character creation.
#3 - New Classes got introduced into the game ( https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1015268.html#msg1015268 )
#4 - November 2019 was when Extended Subclasses was changed so it didn't 'comsume' karma.  ( https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1038393.html#msg1038393 )

The changes to the extended subclasses were part of a change that reduced the karma regeneration rate from 45 days to 30 days.
The changes were also, as far as I recall, meant to make those 1 karma subclasses more popular, as players seemed to not select them because it would interfere with their magick karma regeneration rates

[Halaster]

What mansa said.

[Gentleboy]

We love none.

[Kestria]

I love that this opens up so many options to 'learn things in game'.

Like 5 years down the line in the Byn and you have taken an avid interest in armor making, you can meld your sub guild around it becoming something you learn organically along the way.
Or if you were huntery focused and then wished to take a Kadian path, you could learn to make jewelry/clothing.

I have had it so many times where I wish I could have learnt something different with a longer lasting character but skills are set, so, this opens up so many different pathways!

[Troicha]

big explanatory history post

Thanks, Mansa. This was immensely helpful.