Opinions on Extended Subguilds

[Lotion]

I have some opinions on Extended Subguilds and this thread will contain them.

Players with 0/1, 0/2, or 0/3 current karma should be allowed to create characters with Extended Subguilds. From what I've come to understand karma regeneration is meant to prevent people from chainsplatting mages. Restricting people from picking more interesting subguilds if they die too quickly on their karma characters adds insult to injury.

Extended Subguilds that give skill limited custom crafting (e.g. Master Chef) should become regular subguilds available to zero karma accounts. If a character can be trusted with custom crafting by picking the Custom Crafter subguild, the Fence Guild, the Dune Trader guild, or the Artisan subguild

[Jihelu]

I have no idea what the purpose of Karma is for anymore.

If it's meant to be for the things that GET you karma, knowing how the game world works/not being a magic spam casting butthole, it makes sense that its for magic classes.

I don't know how my ability to ERP on mages helps my ability to play master chef every character and I don't think the two should be related.

Having the Extended subguilds be for everyone would be neat. I mostly think it would be neat because I like to imagine it would lead to an upheaval of the subguilds all getting an update (Or removed) to all be useful in comparison.

[triste]

Meh.

I'll update https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/ if I need to as a result of any change, but quickly voting against this change. Playing a weaker mundane isn't the end of the world if you value roleplay more than skills. Great storytelling needs great characters in all stations in life, even the weak.

[X-D]

I sorta agree with extended subs should no longer cost karma. Mostly because there are magick subs to suck that up. Along with at the time the extended subs went in, not only was there a much higher karma range...they were made for different main classes anyway.

Now many main/extended sub choices give more overlap then advantage. But as they sit now, I see no reason to cost karma.

[MeTekillot]

They don't cost karma. They just require you to have karma to pick.

I've long supported replacing current subguilds with the extended ones. Not entirely sure their karma gate serves any purpose.

I realize they're gated for "balance", but the reasoning and effective execution are at odds.

[X-D]

Cost, have, use, need...whatever...How about, They should not be karma.

I swear, some people nitpick so they do not have to directly agree.

[Patuk]

I, too, want them made into 0 karma classes entirely. Mundane humans and the like should be on equal footing, be they mundanes made by players with karma or not.

[Aruven]

I have no idea what the purpose of Karma is for anymore.

This, as far as mundane guilds/subguilds/ext. subguilds are concerned.

[Brytta Léofa]

Extended subguilds are a nice reward for getting karma. Is that a dynamic we want to have in the game today? IDK, but it's not crazy. It's a pretty swell Content Unlock for karma 1, which otherwise just grants you the Delf and Touched options.

[Narf]

Extended subguilds are a nice reward for getting karma. Is that a dynamic we want to have in the game today? IDK, but it's not crazy. It's a pretty swell Content Unlock for karma 1, which otherwise just grants you the Delf and Touched options.

I've said this a few times in other threads, but I think karma should be separate from a reward structure. Karma should represent trust staff has in a player to play the game properly.

If they want to give out rewards, make it something separate (and, I'd argue, expendable) for efforts put towards the game. People that put in extra effort to the game get rewarded, people that act in a trustworthy manner get karma. Two separate things.

[Lotion]

Extended subguilds are a nice reward for getting karma. Is that a dynamic we want to have in the game today? IDK, but it's not crazy. It's a pretty swell Content Unlock for karma 1, which otherwise just grants you the Delf and Touched options.

If a karma one player makes a desert elf and then dies because carru, anakore, low slung tarantula, or any other thing that can just fucking delete an inexperienced delf player they will be at 0/1 karma for 30 days from when they made that poor delf and will not be able to create a character using an extended subguild.

[triste]

Extended subguilds are a nice reward for getting karma. Is that a dynamic we want to have in the game today? IDK, but it's not crazy. It's a pretty swell Content Unlock for karma 1, which otherwise just grants you the Delf and Touched options.

If a karma one player makes a desert elf and then dies because carru, anakore, low slung tarantula, or any other thing that can just fucking delete an inexperienced delf player they will be at 0/1 karma for 30 days from when they made that poor delf and will not be able to create a character using an extended subguild.

Yes, and why is this a problem.

The unlocking of the subguilds themselves is a "nice reward," Brytta Leofa is correct.

Having karma for your next character because you didn't die too early yolo solo hunting is your reward for skill and survival.

It is a simple solution: if you hate playing 0 karma characters as someone with karma, don't app a gick or special race character (which consumes your karma) and die right away by yolo solo hunting, yeeting yourself off a cliff, or what have you in the first thirty days played.

The best rewards are earned, not doled out like welfare. The problem you complain about is simply solved by surviving. Almost like the theme of the game is survival.

If you approve Lotion's idea you are going to see very annoying outcomes like people yeeting characters off cliffs for better stat rolls because they don't have to wait for regen, MORE magickers as people now can only spend their one karma on gickers and/or smelly elves, etc. There is a bunkle of reasons why this is a bad idea.

[Jihelu]

I kinda liked the GCP = Karma + 2 idea

[Lotion]

Extended subguilds are a nice reward for getting karma. Is that a dynamic we want to have in the game today? IDK, but it's not crazy. It's a pretty swell Content Unlock for karma 1, which otherwise just grants you the Delf and Touched options.

If a karma one player makes a desert elf and then dies because carru, anakore, low slung tarantula, or any other thing that can just fucking delete an inexperienced delf player they will be at 0/1 karma for 30 days from when they made that poor delf and will not be able to create a character using an extended subguild.

Yes, and why is this a problem.

The unlocking of the subguilds themselves is a "nice reward," Brytta Leofa is correct.

Having karma for your next character because you didn't die too early yolo solo hunting is your reward for skill and survival.

It is a simple solution: if you hate playing 0 karma characters as someone with karma, don't app a gick or special race character (which consumes your karma) and die right away by yolo solo hunting, yeeting yourself off a cliff, or what have you in the first thirty days played.

The best rewards are earned, not doled out like welfare. The problem you complain about is simply solved by surviving. Almost like the theme of the game is survival.

If you approve Lotion's idea you are going to see very annoying outcomes like people yeeting characters off cliffs for better stat rolls because they don't have to wait for regen, MORE magickers as people now can only spend their one karma on gickers and/or smelly elves, etc. There is a bunkle of reasons why this is a bad idea.

This change will not allow players to startscum for magickers more often. Players would still need karma to create a delf, half-giant, mul, or any kind of mage.

[Patuk]

They're mundanes. Mundane humans, elves, dwarves, all picking mundane subclasses. No karma should be involved in that.

[triste]

They're mundanes. Mundane humans, elves, dwarves, all picking mundane subclasses. No karma should be involved in that.

You mean exactly like the system we have today? *

* Terms and conditions apply. The system we have today works as described as long as your gicker character doesn't defenestrate, or "yeet" themselves off a cliff within four hours of character creation. Show an ability to survive and amazing rewards will be made available, such as what this thread is asking for already. All it takes is skill and if you don't have skill a little caution.

[Patuk]

They're mundanes. Mundane humans, elves, dwarves, all picking mundane subclasses. No karma should be involved in that.

You mean exactly like the system we have today? *

* Terms and conditions apply. The system we have today works as described as long as your gicker character doesn't defenestrate, or "yeet" themselves off a cliff within four hours of character creation. Show an ability to survive and amazing rewards will be made available, such as what this thread is asking for already. All it takes is skill and if you don't have skill a little caution.

It is not like the system we have today. People playing karma options can't pick them if they die young. New players, who I'd want to stick around, don't get to pick them. I want extended subs to be available to both without any hindrance whatsoever.

[Riev]

I believe Triste is confusing themselves to the point of "Not all Karma-costing options are magick". Picking a desert elf costs the karma, so does a half-giant or mul.

Its not just "I tried to throw a fireball and got punked, woe is me" its "I wanted to play a desert elf, didn't know the area and died, and now I have to wait a month to play a crafter with some good combat subguild."

[lostinspace]

The best rewards are earned, not doled out like welfare. The problem you complain about is simply solved by surviving. Almost like the theme of the game is survival.

Spendable karma arrives every 30 days until you're capped. All you can actually earn is a higher cap.
The problem is also solved by not logging in. I earned 2 karma that way earlier this year.

If you approve Lotion's idea you are going to see very annoying outcomes like people yeeting characters off cliffs for better stat rolls because they don't have to wait for regen

I was under the impression that if you have 1 karma to spend, you can pick an extended subguild without spending that 1 karma. If that's the case then can't someone suicide their master chef until they get desired stats right now, under the current system?


I agree with your point about this change likely resulting in slightly more karma races and magickers/psions.

[creeper386]

I personally curious about the use of extended subguilds. From my perspective, some of them provide enough benefit that other then niche cases I never really want to use a standard subguild.

Which really makes me concerned. I personally don't think power level should be gated behind karma so much as karma exists to ensure some standard of the game world persists.

I'm not a fan of extended subguilds being gated in karma. I have karma, I don't use it so it being gated has no impact on me, but I'm not sure they are powerful enough to be game breaking. I think other karma options are already plenty of incentive to play the game how we expect it should be played.

But I also think the subguilds as a whole need to be overhauled.

[Dan]

My only thought on it is that if they don't consume karma they shouldn't require you to wait for one to regen in order to app an ext sub.

[Krath]

If it's mundane it should be zero karma.

[X-D]

On extended, Should you have the karma max to use, sure, should you have that available...nope.

Log in, 0 of 2, Oh hey, yes your max is 2 but no, you cannot take any advanced sub.


Um...

No.

You should be able to. Advanced subs do not cost you karma but you have to have it regened...this seems like an oversight to me.

[WarriorPoet]

I haven't run through the dozens of discussions about extended guilds or the karma argument but, for my money, mundane subs should be available for everyone free of charge. To my knowledge none of them really put you head and shoulders above your vanilla subs, so why not?

It just adds more varied skillsets so that more fun shit can get done. It unbalances nothing but adds something. Might be wrong.

[Krath]

Here:

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57615.0.html

Let's see what staff says.