Opinions on Extended Subguilds

[Brokkr]

You should be able to. Advanced subs do not cost you karma but you have to have it regened...this seems like an oversight to me.

Memories seem to be short, if this is a perspective.  They used to need you to spend current karma.  We made it easier to take them by being nice and letting people have them without having karma, in a nod to the time before spendable karma when they where open to anyone with the right karma level.

Should we go back to them costing karma?  Should we go back to them being extended subguild app?  Should we go back to them not being in existance?  Should we bring them down to 0 karma, bringing down the power level and perhaps bringing up the power level of 0 karma subs so that they are all roughly on par?

[Narf]

You should be able to. Advanced subs do not cost you karma but you have to have it regened...this seems like an oversight to me.

Should we bring them down to 0 karma, bringing down the power level and perhaps bringing up the power level of 0 karma subs so that they are all roughly on par?

It's a bit of a project, but I think this would be best in the long term. None of the mundane extended subguilds hand out the sort of power that'd require karma. In fact, I'd say they uniformly require less oversight than demi-human role play guidelines (including the 0 karma options).

While I'm aware this will cause a small amount of power creep, it should only impact new players, and I don't think that will cause the sort of problems that widespread power creep does.

[Armaddict]

You should be able to. Advanced subs do not cost you karma but you have to have it regened...this seems like an oversight to me.

Memories seem to be short, if this is a perspective.  They used to need you to spend current karma.  We made it easier to take them by being nice and letting people have them without having karma, in a nod to the time before spendable karma when they where open to anyone with the right karma level.

Should we go back to them costing karma?  Should we go back to them being extended subguild app?  Should we go back to them not being in existance?  Should we bring them down to 0 karma, bringing down the power level and perhaps bringing up the power level of 0 karma subs so that they are all roughly on par?

I dunno if these are honest questions or being facetious (just one of those text things), but I've said for a long time that the extended mundane guilds don't really mesh that well with the new classes.  Not because of combinations, but because they were based on much sparser skill trees to fill them out.  I think the new classes are much more filled out, which makes extended subs like cramming more tools into a well stocked toolbox.  I'd rather see extended subs lowered a fair amount, normal subs lifted up, and then redundancies removed.  In other words, as you said here, make all the mundane subs on par with each other (with my specificity being on them being sparser, but not limited to very low skill levels like the previous 'normal' subguilds).

[triste]

Someone plz plz plz just message me if shit is changed again so I can update my crap picker again. I love this game but I'm lucky if I get a few minutes to check the GDB a week, much less track with ur all deliberating.

Also my vote is to keep karmz for some mundane classes. I have no idea why people are so phobic of 0 karma subguilds that they want extended subguilds to be free. I have hella karmz but am playing a 0 karma PC right now cuz what do ya know this game isn't about skills and sometimes I like to roleplay a loser to get a break from real life.

[Dan]

My one issue is that people are likely inclined to wait if they've used up their karma between a character that consumes their karma points and dies before apping an extended subguild.

This keeps people out of the game which has a cyclical effect on how many people play.

If we want to improve player numbers we could start by internally looking at those types of situations where people who otherwise would have logged in just can't with their chosen role idea yet, or will wait to do so. Such as the case with waiting for an extended subguild karma point (which isn't consumed anyway) to populate.

If we want people to play, there shouldn't be pain involved in using their options. Nor there be mechanisms which slow the apping process by second orders of effect. Some may answer with apping a non-karma subguild is the answer and I just disagree with that being a viable option. I /could/ get sushi at a gas station but I will wait until I can get it at my favorite spot on Friday.

Extending this thought out to include other consumable karma options would get people into the game sooner as well. Magick subguilds could be apped before timer regeneration, but the spells would not populate until the karma did, as an idea. This way if you lose your Raider Nilazi, maybe you app an adventurer destruction Krathi next but won't have access to the spells until 90 days later. Just a thought. The bottom line is, it would keep characters in the game rather than waiting for an OOC timer.

Finally, there could stand to be more mundane karma options to level the field on numbers of magickers overall. Perk-like bonuses that cost karma have been something people always seem keen to the idea of.

[dumbstruck]

Someone plz plz plz just message me if shit is changed again so I can update my crap picker again. I love this game but I'm lucky if I get a few minutes to check the GDB a week, much less track with ur all deliberating.

Also my vote is to keep karmz for some mundane classes. I have no idea why people are so phobic of 0 karma subguilds that they want extended subguilds to be free. I have hella karmz but am playing a 0 karma PC right now cuz what do ya know this game isn't about skills and sometimes I like to roleplay a loser to get a break from real life.

As someone without karma due to being new still as far as I know, I find it strange that I can't play a stalker who can make custom jewelry or clothing items unless I have the karma for a master rafting tailor or jeweler. Does it require more trust when all those items have to be approved before they go live anyway?

[triste]

Someone plz plz plz just message me if shit is changed again so I can update my crap picker again. I love this game but I'm lucky if I get a few minutes to check the GDB a week, much less track with ur all deliberating.

Also my vote is to keep karmz for some mundane classes. I have no idea why people are so phobic of 0 karma subguilds that they want extended subguilds to be free. I have hella karmz but am playing a 0 karma PC right now cuz what do ya know this game isn't about skills and sometimes I like to roleplay a loser to get a break from real life.

As someone without karma due to being new still as far as I know, I find it strange that I can't play a stalker who can make custom jewelry or clothing items unless I have the karma for a master rafting tailor or jeweler. Does it require more trust when all those items have to be approved before they go live anyway?

Good inference. I have karma but my dumbassed custom crafts get rejected all the time, so maybe.

You can also still submit custom crafts without karma as an artisan, etc.

[dumbstruck]

You can also still submit custom crafts without karma as an artisan, etc.

It isn't adding any power that is not already freely available to 0 karma people but instead merely opening up the types of characters that NEW PLAYERS can play so that they aren't pigeonholed into one very specific type when longer term players are able to do it with any character type? If nothing else I think the master crafting subs should be open to everyone, because that isn't increasing power but instead allowing a more diverse array of class options with power levels that have already been established as 0 karma (artisan, dune trader, and fence), aka custom crafting. As for the no crafting extended subs, honestly those are probably their own ball of wax with the different ways the engine treats combat vs crafting.

[triste]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, just LMK if things change so I can update stuff. Cute icon btw and I am all in favor of whatever we believe will retain new players.

I will say the evolution of Armageddon has felt like it has gone from true harshness to something softer, but I know I am a relic with a taste for pain.

[Delirium]

The subguilds (regular and extended) were built to supplement the original classes and are all in severe need of a rework. I have strong opinions on this.

I also have the radical opinion that we only needed nine main classes, but I know there's a snowballs chance in hell of that happening.

[ArmaJunkie]

The subguilds (regular and extended) were built to supplement the original classes and are all in severe need of a rework. I have strong opinions on this.

I also have the radical opinion that we only needed nine main classes, but I know there's a snowballs chance in hell of that happening.

I'll bring another snowball with me if it helps! I always liked the nine main class idea myself, but for the purposes of this chat:

Now that magick subclasses are what they are, (which I still believe should require karma), and with /no/ subclass able to get any skill above advanced, all the mundane subclass options should be reworked into a reasonable number of choices, cost nothing, and go back to what they were originally intended for. To round out your class choice.