GMH Improvement Idea Thread

[Gentleboy]

Hey all,

it's no secret that GMH leader roles have a high turn-over. I've played one, I played one badly.

Should the merchants be re-worked? Why is there such a high turnover rate? And can we not keep mentioning the vending machine comparison to merchants. I think we all understand that merchants lack being a character and become a means of getting ur sweet perfumes, badass silt horror cod plates, and I dunno a spice pipe that looks like a gortok shitting.

I think there is more conversation to be had surrounding the current role of merchants, employees, and their place in the world. I heard something interesting from veteran players that when the GMHs first came about, they had goals. Those goals were met and since then, the GMHs have just been coasting. I might be wrong. Inform a veteran newbie like me a bit more on how things used to be.

I personally think that Kurac needs to be completely re-worked. Their wares need to be updated or there needs to be a huge add-on for gear. Maybe more entertainment stuff, more medical gear. And yes, ew, sex stuff. Even if it's just a prop. They are the house of sex, drugs, and... wilderness camo. I think they should move away from wilderness, give that to Salarr, and put more focus on the niche. Especially the racial niche, since they are one of the only GMH houses that HIRE ALL RACES.


Anyway, thoughts? Ideas? Can anyone who played long-lived leaders tell us what worked? Anyone who played a long-live crafter, entertainer tell us when you had the most fun?

[Gentleboy]

Oh! And just a reminder. Be kind, listen, and respond with respect. These threads are opinion based! I can't wait to see what you all bring.

[Narf]

I think it might help with some of the drudgery that comes from the role to streamline the selling bit so the buyer and seller don't have to be online at the same time to make a transaction.

Have NPCs that can pass along items to specific clients, or eliminate the concept of "orders" all together, and just have GMH people make things for shops and it becomes first come first serve.

[mansa]

My initial problems with the Greater Merchant Houses primarily are with how new characters are entered into the gameworld and how they are set up.

In my opinion, New Greater Merchant House leaders need to know:

• Who the previous GMH characters were.
• What those players were attempting to accomplish with their characters.
• ...If the new character wants to continue those plotlines or if they want to start their own
• Who the political people were in the city they are primarily playing in.
• ...How the previous characters were treating them, and if they want to continue treating them the same, or change.
• If there is any outstanding item orders from that need to be fulfilled.
• An initial breadcrumb quest to help those players both get into character better, and to feel like they have something to accomplish right away.

In my few characters that I've played in the Greater Merchant Houses, I've always struggled with their first 24 hours of play with the character, and if it doesn't 'click' then I usually store, and having those questions above answered would of been really *really* helpful.

[Halaster]

eliminate the concept of "orders" all together, and just have GMH people make things for shops and it becomes first come first serve.

+1 to that!

[Patuk]

Should the merchants be re-worked?

Maybe?

Why is there such a high turnover rate?

Because they keep getting fucking murdered. Constantly. High murder rate equals high turnover rate.

I think we all understand that merchants lack being a character and become a means of getting ur sweet perfumes, badass silt horror cod plates, and I dunno a spice pipe that looks like a gortok shitting.

No? I played my last GMH merchant in 2013, but didn't find that it stifled my ability to play the character somehow. You are free to make your time your own and literally nobody in the game, not a soul, will or can make you do otherwise.



Anyway.


Back in the 90s or so, I might guess, GMHs could be a more powerful force than they are now. PCs could not craft yet, indie merchants hoping to make coin could but resort to foraging and selling goods across the known, and people were just worse at the game: joining a clan for its perks was more attractive.

These thing no longer hold. A crafter in 2021 can earn far more cash than GMH PCs can by sheer virtue of craft skills being fantastic and not being limited by the market. Salarr being that house with the weapons isn't relevant at all: a long length of bone makes you a sword that you can use for your PC's entire career without feeling bad or weak. Hire people? Good luck! Merchants know they will make less and be less free by joining you, a cool third of the playerbase is unemployable mages, and the remaining mundanes know that hunting by themselves paints a smaller target on their backs than dying because Faithful Lady Killjoy wants to annoy you.

In the end, GMH have less of a point today than they did back then. The Arabet and the Sun Runners and the Valuren can bring their areas to life and do their own thing. The Guild can deal shadily and the AoD can demand they get a cut of the cash or maybe beat someone up if they don't play ball. The same AoD and the Legions can skirmish if they feel like it. What do GMH do? GMH show up for monthly RPTs, or so, and auction off items dredged from a database. A fancy axe, a purple robe, some camouflage gear BUT IT'S MADE FROM AUROCH HIDE.

Flavor items are not a solution: GMH people need a day job. If you're a crafter in the house, you need a reason to craft. If you're one of the house's whole two (2) huntsmen, you need a reason to exist also: GMH warehouses are as fucking packed as they come. If you're a leader, you need a reason to exist beyond inertia. That GMH leaders are far more fragile than nobles and templars certainly doesn't help here, because they come with guards nor tacky templar shit and are expected to do stuff in public all the time. The staff policy of only 'really' engaging with leaders after they've been around for months or so makes it worse yet. Three months out of my life, yours, anyone's, after you've already selected a guy to be sponsored? What even was the point of sponsoring them in then?

I don't really know how to fix this without adding a lot to the game that isn't already there. I certainly don't know how to do it given player counts currently. The game has maybe 150 players at max, which means any clan out there can hope for maybe five people at most. Whatever the solution is, it has to be workable for a clan of maybe five, six people on a good day. It has to provide a thing for people to do outside of biweekly RPTs, so their whole purpose isn't stretched out over weeks upon boring weeks. And it has to be something that won't fall apart entirely when some guy gets fucking shanked, staff has to spend two weeks picking a new person, and thing won't roll for another four because apparently slow going is a good thing.

[Gentleboy]

My initial problems with the Greater Merchant Houses primarily are with how new characters are entered into the gameworld and how they are set up.

In my opinion, New Greater Merchant House leaders need to know:

• Who the previous GMH characters were.
• What those players were attempting to accomplish with their characters.
• ...If the new character wants to continue those plotlines or if they want to start their own
• Who the political people were in the city they are primarily playing in.
• ...How the previous characters were treating them, and if they want to continue treating them the same, or change.
• If there is any outstanding item orders from that need to be fulfilled.
• An initial breadcrumb quest to help those players both get into character better, and to feel like they have something to accomplish right away.

In my few characters that I've played in the Greater Merchant Houses, I've always struggled with their first 24 hours of play with the character, and if it doesn't 'click' then I usually store, and having those questions above answered would of been really *really* helpful.

This is a wonderful post! Thank you, Mansa! I agree with almost everything here. It's like, the legacy and work of the previous character disappears.

[Gentleboy]

Should the merchants be re-worked?

Maybe?

Why is there such a high turnover rate?

Because they keep getting fucking murdered. Constantly. High murder rate equals high turnover rate.

I think we all understand that merchants lack being a character and become a means of getting ur sweet perfumes, badass silt horror cod plates, and I dunno a spice pipe that looks like a gortok shitting.

No? I played my last GMH merchant in 2013, but didn't find that it stifled my ability to play the character somehow. You are free to make your time your own and literally nobody in the game, not a soul, will or can make you do otherwise.



Anyway.


Back in the 90s or so, I might guess, GMHs could be a more powerful force than they are now. PCs could not craft yet, indie merchants hoping to make coin could but resort to foraging and selling goods across the known, and people were just worse at the game: joining a clan for its perks was more attractive.

These thing no longer hold. A crafter in 2021 can earn far more cash than GMH PCs can by sheer virtue of craft skills being fantastic and not being limited by the market. Salarr being that house with the weapons isn't relevant at all: a long length of bone makes you a sword that you can use for your PC's entire career without feeling bad or weak. Hire people? Good luck! Merchants know they will make less and be less free by joining you, a cool third of the playerbase is unemployable mages, and the remaining mundanes know that hunting by themselves paints a smaller target on their backs than dying because Faithful Lady Killjoy wants to annoy you.

In the end, GMH have less of a point today than they did back then. The Arabet and the Sun Runners and the Valuren can bring their areas to life and do their own thing. The Guild can deal shadily and the AoD can demand they get a cut of the cash or maybe beat someone up if they don't play ball. The same AoD and the Legions can skirmish if they feel like it. What do GMH do? GMH show up for monthly RPTs, or so, and auction off items dredged from a database. A fancy axe, a purple robe, some camouflage gear BUT IT'S MADE FROM AUROCH HIDE.

Flavor items are not a solution: GMH people need a day job. If you're a crafter in the house, you need a reason to craft. If you're one of the house's whole two (2) huntsmen, you need a reason to exist also: GMH warehouses are as fucking packed as they come. If you're a leader, you need a reason to exist beyond inertia. That GMH leaders are far more fragile than nobles and templars certainly doesn't help here, because they come with guards nor tacky templar shit and are expected to do stuff in public all the time. The staff policy of only 'really' engaging with leaders after they've been around for months or so makes it worse yet. Three months out of my life, yours, anyone's, after you've already selected a guy to be sponsored? What even was the point of sponsoring them in then?

I don't really know how to fix this without adding a lot to the game that isn't already there. I certainly don't know how to do it given player counts currently. The game has maybe 150 players at max, which means any clan out there can hope for maybe five people at most. Whatever the solution is, it has to be workable for a clan of maybe five, six people on a good day. It has to provide a thing for people to do outside of biweekly RPTs, so their whole purpose isn't stretched out over weeks upon boring weeks. And it has to be something that won't fall apart entirely when some guy gets fucking shanked, staff has to spend two weeks picking a new person, and thing won't roll for another four because apparently slow going is a good thing.

Another great post!

You mentioned a day job. That makes me think... Red Storm is great. Of course, I'm always thinking about Red Storm. But it's great because of The Sand Lord's Bounty. I think every city can do with one of those, but maybe with less income gathered? What do you think?

[betweenford]

Kill.

[Patuk]

Oh? That'd be something, if not quite what I meant. The AoD has a day job: patrol, try to thwart the one and a half criminal in 'nak at a time, maybe protect a templar doing templar stuff and be a moustached Russian henchman. GMH employees don't really have a similar thing to do, most days, be they leaders or rank and file employees. Playing number go up with the clan bank account just isn't all that engaging.

I also agree with Mansa fully and really really would like to see his suggestion become policy.

[Gentleboy]

Oh? That'd be something, if not quite what I meant. The AoD has a day job: patrol, try to thwart the one and a half criminal in 'nak at a time, maybe protect a templar doing templar stuff and be a moustached Russian henchman. GMH employees don't really have a similar thing to do, most days, be they leaders or rank and file employees. Playing number go up with the clan bank account just isn't all that engaging.

I also agree with Mansa fully and really really would like to see his suggestion become policy.

I suppose their day job is gossiping and sitting at the bar and being a presence. But, crafters can't sell, and if there is no GMH leader online, it can be a little tough.

"Oh! A Kadian! I need some stuff!"

"Sorry! I can't sell things I make!"

"Can you tell your boss I want to buy soap?"

"Sure, but they haven't been about in five weeks. And four nobles need things so you might not get it and keep having to pester them and me."

-------------------------------

And it would be nice if they had to make things consistently. Like Salarr has an NPC who will always buy arrows. For like.. 2 sid a pop. Kadius... I dunno, beads? And Kurac.... mumble mumble.. I dunno..

But then again, that brings the problem of compound sitting. This is a very tricky thing..

[Tranquil]

An idea I've had from a while ago (apologies if this was said already as I havent fully read the thread) was moving the unabashed money printing NPCs into GMH clans. Remove the clothes buying NPC from Red Storm for example and move it into Kadius. Let crafters use up the 500 bones in the warehouse by making a bunch of swords.. etc with other items according to each house. The PC merchant could also get a cut.

Let GMH be rich, and make them far more desirable for being a crafter other then simply the status. Since indies often make far more coin currenty.

EDIT: Could fix the compound sitting issue by making these NPCs work like any other shop. Coin limit per person, and closes every night until early morning. If players still compound sit at night despite these changes... well, they'd probably compound sit anyways.

[Gentleboy]

An idea I've had from a while ago (apologies if this was said already as I havent fully read the thread) was moving the unabashed money printing NPCs into GMH clans. Remove the clothes buying NPC from Red Storm for example and move it into Kadius. Let crafters use up the 500 bones in the warehouse by making a bunch of swords.. etc with other items according to each house. The PC merchant could also get a cut.

Let GMH be rich, and make them far more desirable for being a crafter other then simply the status. Since indies often make far more coin currenty.

EDIT: Could fix the compound sitting issue by making these NPCs work like any other shop. Coin limit per person, and closes every night until early morning. If players still compound sit at night despite these changes... well, they'd probably compound sit anyways.

Oh! This is very good as well!

[Nao]

I think it would help to loosen the restrictions on 'only merchants can sell things' a bit. Let the higher-ranked minions sell basic items. That would take some of the pressure off the GMH merchants and maybe they wouldn't be swamped with requests as soon as they log on. They would have more time to schmooze, socialize, plot, deal with minions and so on.

> But tradition! Player interaction! It's supposed to be this way

Something needs to change because the current system doesn't seem to be working anymore. Constant fluctuation and the gaps in leadership roles (not just GMH leaders) are bad for the game. It takes at least a couple of weeks to replace someone, then again a few more weeks to get things off the ground again, especially if the old employees didn't stick around. They leave a gap in the meantime - nobody gets recruited, other PCs move on or store and all plots that need a Kadian/Kuraci/Salarri are put on hold.

Another idea I've had is to hire two people for the same role, if at all possible. I know this happens already, but I'd like this to be the norm, not the exception. This would help with continuity (both inside and outside the clan), bridge gaps if someone dies, stores, or is absent for OOC reasons, and give the two leaders roleplaying opportunities with the other family member - whether it's conflict or cooperation.

[MeTekillot]

Make a robust system for GMH leaders to load in items instead of needing staff to do it. Cannibalize the staff command code, tack on some more tools for sorting, and charge coins to load it in.

Make GMH gear obviously superior to indie gear. Don't be stingy with skill, damage, off/def, and stat buffs from using GMH gear.

Tooting my own horn, but maybe take some pointers from my code thread about spice so that spice is an attractively addictive substance rather than a nearly suicidal Sword of Damocles every time you use it.

[Barsook]

Make a robust system for GMH leaders to load in items instead of needing staff to do it. Cannibalize the staff command code, tack on some more tools for sorting, and charge coins to load it in.

This because it would reduce the need for red tape, but I feel like there need to some "cooldown" timer to create the time it takes a crafter to make the item. Although with how large the GMH's are, virtually, that makes barely any sense. Or maybe like how the tailor/armor tailor system works with tickets and a take it takes to craft said item. I think the latter is the best idea out of the two.

Along with the above and MeTek's second point, what Mansa said in his post are the main points that I agree on. That's some red tape that I think is needed as it's allowing the staff to animate the superior to provide briefing rather than through a request. Provide roleplay for the newly promoted family member to get a sense of what's need to be done and in turn, the staff, can learn a bit how on the player is going to do after the role call.

Lastly, and this is mostly an question to staff, what's the ratio of GMH leader being murdered over storage? I don't think it all murder all the time but the flip-side, players store because the role is meh.

[Barsook]

This was brought up on Discord, but are GMH's meant to work together to stomp out everyone else and also to trade with each other?

[Jihelu]

Like, stomp out competition?

Yes/No.

Most competition we see, on the player side and NPC, will never seriously dent GMH profits. That elf in the Red's shop (Also...an elf! Near Red's! Having a shop! Apparently this sort of thing isn't impossible) isn't cutting into Kadius sales all that much. The several weapon vendors, and stall, in the bazaar aren't hurting Salarri profits. It would take a lot to do that to the point that to get to the space you are at you'd have to be voted upon by the Senate, which the GMH's have a say in (Either officially, I forget, or through bribery)

Basically if the Senate isn't voting on whether or not you should be allowed to do what you want to do a GMH shouldn't be stomping their feet and going 'HE'S KILLING MY BUSINESS'. Maybe individual agents/whatever the fuck they call their members but if I got GMH assassinated for being Tier 3 in a business I'd send a glitter bomb to staff.

[JustAnotherGuy]

eliminate the concept of "orders" all together, and just have GMH people make things for shops and it becomes first come first serve.

+1 to that!

Cannot agree with this one more than enough.  Someone mentions they are looking for something... put it up on a shop after it's made in the area the person may get it.  Now if the merchant wants to take the order and it's going to be a big order, say a large or couple large, then they can do it.  Nobles and Templars, oh yeah... those are the folks that will be spending lot of coins.

At the same point though, there should be some way to pass goods from a person to person WITHOUT personal interaction.  GMH merchants are going to have errand boys, they are going to have minions to pass along goods.  A PC doesn't need to do that themselves.  The part that I hated the most with being a GMH merchant was "delivery".  If I could just get the items delivered somehow directly to an individual, that would be amazing.

Merchant NPC that you can set an item to show only for a certain Name/Keyword, AND you can set the price.  That would be the perfect dream right there.

[HavokBlue]

Loading and fulfilling specific item orders is the easiest part of staffing a GMH. If you torment your storyteller with vague requests for items that may or may not exist, it gets trickier. If you have a precise list and you know what you want, the amount of time it actually takes is negligible.

My small suggestion would be for a brave storyteller to request a crafting recipe be submitted alongside each House-specific item order they receive. Even if the recipe is not implemented immediately to the game, it can be stashed in a spreadsheet and saved for a later date when someone may have the patience to add recipes to presently-uncraftable clan items. Editorial review and recipe programming remain a necessary step but you effectively automate a not insignificant portion of the busy-work that comes with realizing the dream of fully craftable clan item lists.

[Gentleboy]

Hey all! I'm bumping this cause the topic is up on discord.

How can we make GMH's more appealing?

What would a complete overhaul look like?

What's the difference between GMH now and GMH in their prime?

[ShaLeah]

eliminate the concept of "orders" all together, and just have GMH people make things for shops and it becomes first come first serve.

+1 to that!

Noooo!


I counter THE ABOVE WITH:

Give GMH sponsored roles the ability to load anything flagged their GMH so they don't have to botherv staff to do it.

[Jahash]

It really is no "bother" to ask me to do item orders. I promise. Don't be afraid to "bother" me for anything - I love helping you guys!

[sucre]

It really is no "bother" to ask me to do item orders. I promise. Don't be afraid to "bother" me for anything - I love helping you guys!

But you might not always be staff! We appreciate it, it's just that I think people are suggesting this for future iterations of staff, too, when rotations happen.

[Narf]

Could people that have played GHM leaders possibly give an idea of what was most onerous about the role?

I mean I've heard people complain, but it's hard to tell how much is hyperbole and how much is genuine grievance.